Time Nick Message 12:35 slef z39.50 over port 80? 12:35 slef I thought it was usually over UDP and ports like 7090 12:52 kados slef: every z3950 server uses a different port it seems 12:52 kados slef: 210 and 9999 are common ports 12:58 slef aye, but 80? 12:58 kados you could run it on 80 12:59 kados I've not seen one on 80 before 12:59 slef I doubt this troublesome firewall allows 80/udp anyway 12:59 slef 22/tcp was slow enough to get 12:59 kados lots of firewalls block udp alltogether :-) 12:59 slef deep joy 12:59 kados :-) 13:00 kados you could do it through a proxy 13:00 slef best get a working koha HEAD install first ;-D 13:00 slef does z3950-daemon support proxies? 13:00 kados it might 13:00 kados if not, it could very easily 13:01 kados bbiab 13:57 thd slef: disable all firewalls for testing :) 13:57 thd kados: are you back from lunch yet? 14:00 thd you would think that I was running MS Widows :) 14:18 thd kados? 14:18 dewey i think kados is becoming a true Perl Monger... 14:18 thd dewey: where is kados? 14:18 dewey rumour has it kados is becoming a true Perl Monger 14:19 thd dewey: what else does rumour have 14:19 dewey thd: wish i knew 15:02 thd kados: are you back from lunch 15:02 thd ? 15:39 thd dewey: seen kados? 15:39 dewey kados was last seen on #koha 2 hours, 38 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying: bbiab [Sat Jul 1 06:01:02 2006] 15:40 thd dewey: how long is ab? 15:40 dewey no idea, thd 15:40 thd :0 17:52 thd kados? 17:52 dewey kados is becoming a true Perl Monger... 17:53 thd dewey: define monger 17:53 dewey thd: huh? 17:54 thd dewey: define true? 17:54 dewey i don't know, thd 17:59 thd dewey: there is a rumour that kados will be bbiab 17:59 dewey ...but there is a minor diff in <div>s, that I missed... 18:00 thd dewey: what diff was that? 18:00 dewey thd: i haven't a clue 18:00 thd :) 19:49 thd dewey? 19:49 dewey yes, thd? 19:49 thd dewey: seen kados? 19:49 dewey kados was last seen on #koha 6 hours, 48 minutes and 27 seconds ago, saying: bbiab [Sat Jul 1 06:01:02 2006] 19:50 thd dewey: how long is ab now? 19:50 dewey bugger all, i dunno, thd 19:50 thd dewey: ab is at least 6 hours and 49 minutes 19:50 dewey OK, thd. 19:51 thd dewey: ab? 19:51 dewey i guess ab is at least 6 hours and 49 minutes 22:03 kados dewey: seen kados? 22:03 dewey kados was last seen on #koha 0 seconds ago, saying: dewey: seen kados? [Sat Jul 1 15:03:30 2006] 22:03 kados hehe 22:03 kados ab seems to be more hours than I expected 22:03 kados thd: you around? 22:04 kados thd: I've been playing around with faceted searching 22:04 kados thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com 22:04 thd yes kados 22:04 kados thd: mainly with subjects, though I could easily add authors, etc. 22:04 kados thd: what I could use some advice on 22:04 kados thd: is how to construct 'groups' of subjects in the faceted result set 22:05 kados thd: (I assume you know what I mean by faceted ) 22:05 kados thd: (it's the list of subjects on the left-hand side of the screen after a search) 22:06 thd kados: are you proffering that as a definition for faceted subjects? 22:06 kados hehe 22:06 kados yes 22:06 kados it's not as faceted as I'd like 22:06 kados I think I'd like to have groupings with expandable lists 22:06 kados so group all 'Fiction' into a 'folder' 22:07 kados so you can expand it and reveal 22:07 thd kados: I would like to see a proper definition of faceted one day 22:07 kados the sub subjects 22:07 kados thd: what do you think? 22:07 kados thd: is the demo interesting at least? 22:07 kados :-) 22:07 thd kados: Even The subject approach to information does not seem to have a definition 22:08 kados I think I could group things into folders based on what is in 650$x 22:08 kados ie, 650$x is the folder 22:08 kados the other subfields go into that folder 22:08 thd kados: where is the faceted search? 22:08 kados maybe 22:09 kados do any search 22:09 kados you'll see the subjects on the left-hand side 22:09 kados of the results screen 22:09 thd kados: do I merely search for a subject heading? 22:09 kados just search for anything 22:09 kados search for 'harry potter' 22:10 kados thd: do you see what I've done? 22:12 thd very nice 22:12 thd kados: what happens with subject subdivisions? 22:12 kados everything is mashed together 22:12 kados in the order they appear in the record 22:12 kados if you can think of a more clever way to do it 22:12 kados I'm all ears :-) 22:13 thd kados: that is not faceted, not that LCSH is really faceted 22:13 kados it seems like sometimes you could group things by 650$a 22:14 kados for instance 22:14 kados a keyword search on harry potter 22:14 kados returns the following: 22:14 kados # Wizards Fiction. (7) 22:14 kados # Schools Fiction. (7) 22:14 kados # Magic Fiction. (5) 22:14 kados in the faceted results 22:14 kados it would look better as: 22:14 thd kados: If it were faceted there would be separate access to each subdivision if LCSH were faceted 22:14 kados Fiction 22:14 kados -Wizards 22:14 kados _Schools 22:14 kados -Magic 22:14 kados right? 22:15 thd kados: you have a faceted result set not faceted subjects :) 22:15 kados right :-) 22:16 thd kados: yes that is in a paper which I just copied a few days ago and have not read yet 22:16 kados is there a consistant way we could group the subjects? 22:16 kados I need a 'simple' formula 22:17 kados if you could explain it to me, I could finish this up tonight 22:17 kados :-) 22:20 thd kados: yes but we should read Gregory Wool. Filing and precoordination : how subject headings are displayed in online catqalogs and why it matters. 2000. In Cataloging & clanssification quarterly. v.29. no. 1/2. 2000. 22:20 kados is it available online? 22:20 kados google has it :-) 22:21 thd kados: I would have an electronic copy I could send you but the publisher was flooded along with the rest of Bingamton, NY and there is no access to the server. 22:23 thd kados: do really find the text in Google? 22:23 kados yes, but the pdf hasn't downloaded yet 22:23 thd s/do/do you/ 22:23 kados so maybe the publisher has blocked access :( 22:23 kados and there's no google cache unfortunately 22:24 kados there is this: http://www.ifla.org/VII/s13/guide/opacguide03.pdf 22:24 thd kados: no there offices are closed because for the past few days because the whole of Bingamton flooded in heavy rains a few days ago. 22:25 kados ahh 22:26 kados bummer 22:26 kados (which runs zebra btw) 22:27 kados well ... 22:27 thd kados: you will only find a page that says pay your money here for access 22:28 kados are subjects in marc21 an arbitrary hierarchy? 22:28 kados ie, a potentially infinitly deep? 22:28 thd kados: I went to a library that has electronic access a day or so too late. 22:29 kados maybe I can find a review of it 22:29 thd kados: most people do not even know that LCSH is hierarchical 22:30 thd kados: the depth is arbitrary but the strictly LCSH hierarchy is somewhat shallow 22:31 thd kados: there is a hidden hierarchy but that is a secret until next year 22:31 kados here is an abstract of that article: 22:31 kados Library of Congress Subject Headings retrieved as the results of a search in an online catalog are likely to be filed in straight alphabetical, word-by-word order, ignoring the semantic structures of these headings and scattering headings of a similar type. This practice makes LC headings unnecessarily difficult to use and negates much of their indexing power. Enthusiasm for filing simplicity and postcoordinate indexing are likely contributing factors to this phenome 22:32 kados thd: you can't share with me? :-) 22:32 thd kados: you cannot determine any of the hierarchies to display without LCSH authority records 22:32 kados ahh 22:32 kados that's a bummer 22:32 kados so NPL doesn't have authorities 22:33 kados I suppose that means no hierarchy in the faceted results for them :( 22:34 thd kados: the authority records have designations for linking to broader, narrower, and parallel terms 22:35 thd kados: I think what you mean for display of the subject headings in the bibliographic record is likely to be different 22:37 thd kados: the use of $x $z $y $v is subsidiary to $a within the individual heading. 22:37 kados so I could at the very least, group by $a for libraries with no authorities? 22:38 thd kados: that is the only hierarchy that most people understand in LCSH 22:38 thd kados: yes, and it may be the only meaningful thing for the record itself 22:39 kados sometimes, 'Fiction' is both a $a and a $v 22:39 kados in different 650s 22:39 kados http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=7646 22:39 kados for instance 22:40 thd kados: $x could of course be a $a in a different subject heading 22:41 thd kados: there is a mistake in that record 22:42 kados heh 22:42 kados what's that? 22:42 thd kados: there is a use of the form subdivision as a $x instead of $v as in other instances 22:43 kados $x and $v should not be used together? 22:44 thd $a Wizards $x Fiction. should be $a Wizards $v Fiction. 22:44 kados writing an ILS is like writing a web browser 22:44 kados you want to support the standard, but you also have to support what's out there in the real world :-) 22:46 thd kados: MARC 21 is a standard with vestigial organs from its evolutionary origin 22:46 kados thd: can all the subfields in a 650 field be expressed as a sentence? 22:46 kados thd: and can you tell me what that sentence is? :-) 22:47 kados ie ... 22:47 thd that is only a theory that does not work in practise. 22:47 kados this record is $x of $a 22:48 kados this record is about $x in $a 22:48 kados or something 22:48 dewey something is not recognising the value actually in the leader. 22:48 kados dewey: no something is something 22:48 dewey OK, kados. 22:48 kados thd: what is the theory? 22:49 thd kados: there is a theory that subject headings should be readable in natural language as if they were a sentence 22:51 thd kados: that breaks immediately with postcoordinate word order to have the important word appear first. 22:54 thd kados: maybe the post coordinate word order has been eliminated 22:54 kados well ... 22:54 kados the bottom line is 22:54 thd kados: there was an effort to do that 22:54 kados is there a way to group the subjects? 22:54 kados as they exist in the bib record? 22:55 kados if so, how can it be done? 22:55 kados should it always be: 22:56 kados 650 22:56 kados $a 22:56 kados $x 22:56 kados $y 22:56 kados etc 22:56 kados ? 22:56 thd kados: make a tree with branches representing $a with $z $x $y and $v as twigs. yes 22:56 kados ok 22:56 kados that I can do quite easily 22:57 kados thd: for all 6XX fields? or only 650? 22:57 thd kados: then have the twigs able to act as subordinate links 22:57 kados what's a subordinate link? 22:58 kados do you mean it searches on $a as well as $y when you click on $y? 22:59 thd kados: for all 649 - 651 at least. 23:01 thd kados: well actually for all cases of $z $x $y $v 23:02 kados ok 23:05 thd kados: you could have checkboxes to search by removing any of $z $x $y $v 23:15 thd kados: now that I have looked at most of the substance of the article that I had cited it appears to be mostly a complaint about the problems than a recommendation for what should be done. 23:16 thd kados: there is reference top some research work which is only partly described 23:19 thd kados: Mia Miassicotte. Improved browsable displays for online subject access. 1986. In Information technology and libraries. 7:373-80, 1986. 23:44 thd kados: http://www.ala.org/ala/alctscontent/catalogingsection/catcommittees/subjectanalysis/subjectreference/RefStructuresFinal.doc 23:47 thd kados: The link above is to ALCTS Cataloging and Classification Section Subject Analysis Committee (SAC). Recommendations for providing access to, display of, navigation within and among, and modifications of existing practice regarding subject reference structures in automated systems. December 1, 2003. 23:48 thd kados; that is what you want 23:48 kados ok, thanks 23:48 thd kados: diagrams and everything 23:49 kados nice 23:50 thd kados: IFLA will never make such nice recommendations for online catalogues officially 23:51 kados heh 00:10 thd kados: Unfortunately, there is nothing especially innovative in those recommendations even if they go beyond what IFLA would do for subjects presently. 00:11 thd kados: most of the recommendations depend upon structure in authority records. 00:14 thd kados; Improved browsable displays for online subject access seems much more promising for what can be done for sorting by geographic, topical, chronological, or form subdivisions. 00:14 kados yes, I would like to experiment with that 00:15 kados even with rough data like NPL's there should be some interesting ways to organize the data on the results page 00:15 kados but now I must get some sleep 00:16 thd kados: unfortunately that article is probably in off site storage on very dirty microfilm at the New York Public library 00:17 thd kados: are you going to be around tomorrow. I had not asked y9u about what tumer and I may have discovered 00:17 kados yes, I will be programming all day 00:17 thd ? 00:17 kados working mainly on zebra stuff 00:18 kados if you manage to write up a brief description via email I will read it first thing in the morning while I am fresh 00:18 thd kados: it would not take more than a few minutes to confirm what we saw 00:18 kados ok ... we'll do it tomorrow (or rather, later today :-)) 00:19 thd good night kados 00:19 kados night 09:33 kados owen: morning 09:34 kados owen: last night I played around with 'faceted results' 09:34 kados owen: do a search on zoomopac to see what I mean 09:34 kados owen: the possibilities are limitless ... we could create facets, subfacets, etc. in search results 09:52 owen kados: that's really neat 09:53 owen How does it work? 10:14 kados owen: it basically just nabs subjects from the result set 10:14 kados owen: and counts how many of each one there i 10:14 kados owen: then orders it by the highest to lowest 10:14 kados owen: it's really rudementary, we could do lots more with it 10:15 kados owen: getting the interface to look nice might be a challange 10:15 kados owen: but that's your department :-) 10:26 owen kados: that sounds resource-intensive. Does it perform well? 10:32 kados very 10:32 kados there are two ways to do it 10:32 kados the first is in perl, you basically just nab the subjects as they are returned from zebra 10:33 kados the second, which I spoke at great length with ID about, would include modifications to Zebra to enable the indexes to retrieve data from the entire result set 10:33 kados (right now mine only retrieves it from the current page) 10:33 owen From the current page of search results? 10:33 kados yep 10:33 kados it's not ideal, but it works fairly well 10:33 kados and is fast :-) 10:34 kados once we get zebra stabilized for production systems 10:34 kados there are three things I'm planning to sponsor/develop for it: 10:34 kados 1. faceted search results 10:34 kados 2. phonetic indexes 10:34 kados 3. stem indexes 10:35 kados in the meantime, I can fake all of the above in perl 10:35 kados but eventually, we'll want all of that stuff handled by the search engine in the background 10:35 owen A couple of ideas, off the top of my head (without knowing if they're possible, of course): Initially display only results with more than one hit, with the option to expand, and sort the 1-hit results alphabetically. 10:36 kados yea, that would definitely be possible 10:36 kados what I really need 10:36 kados is some good ideas for how the interface should look 10:36 kados because I can imagine haveing several of these faceted results 10:36 kados one for 10:36 kados well ... 10:36 kados subject terms 10:37 kados places 10:37 kados people (about people) 10:37 kados then ... 10:37 kados authors 10:37 kados series titles 10:37 kados popularity 10:37 kados it's really simple to build these 10:37 kados but displaying them is a challenge for me :-) 10:37 kados (notice I removed your navbar :-)) 10:38 kados demo.gapines.org 10:38 kados they've got something similar 10:38 kados and I think I like their display 10:38 kados so that would be one way to approach it 10:38 kados monologue 10:40 kados owen: something else to keep in mind 10:40 kados owen: just like the gapines opac, we could make each of the subjects expandable 10:40 kados owen: ie, group them into categories