Time Nick Message 17:39 Destinati I have a book that needs to have a MARC 630 entry 17:39 Destinati but the Add Biblio only shows 650 17:39 Destinati and some others in the 600 range 17:40 Destinati Koha knows about the 630 tag 17:40 Destinati but doesn't show a place where I can edit it 17:40 Destinati how do I add that field to the "add biblio" screen? 18:08 Destinati we can create a new framework 18:08 Destinati based on the default 18:08 Destinati but there seems no way to edit subfields 18:08 Destinati clicking on the double /\ in the lower left gives a server eror 18:08 Destinati error rather 22:51 kados thd: are you around? 22:51 kados thd: I want to bounce some ideas off you regarding 001 and 003 22:52 kados thd: btw: you can add a plugin for the 003 field, I just committed one 22:53 kados thd: along with a new syspref for organizations' MARC code 22:53 kados thd: I'm hoping to do even more 22:53 thd what is the function of the new system preference? 22:53 kados thd: for instance, I understand that 003 and 001 can be moved to other locations 22:53 kados thd: the new syspref stores a libraries MARC code 22:54 thd 035 do you mean? 22:54 kados thd: or 010 or 016 22:55 thd the system preference is for the library ID assigned by LC? 22:55 kados thd: correct 22:55 thd kados: 010 is always LCCN 22:56 thd in MARC 21 at least 22:56 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0000.htm 22:56 kados "An organization using a record of another organization may move the incoming control number from field 001 (and the control number identifier from field 003) to field 035 (System Control Number) , 010 (Library of Congress Control Number) , or 016 (National Bibliographic Agency Control Number) , as appropriate, and place its own system control number in field 001 and its control number identifier in field 003." 22:57 thd kados: if the record is from the LC system 010 and 001 are the same on LCs own system or a record originating directly from them 23:00 thd kados: yes moving those values is useful and formed an important part of the email that I had never finished from months ago and recently decided to send you when the default Koha MARC 21 bibliographic framework was completely finished. 23:01 kados thd: I think I could move them if I knew what the behaviour should be 23:02 thd kados: I did not do much Friday because I had a headache all day from not enough food or sleep. Today I repaid my sleep dept. 23:02 kados (btw: should the default leader be ' nam a22 7a 4500' or '|||||nam|a22|||||7a||4500'? 23:02 thd kados: I would send you the draft form of that message now but I would have to look for it. 23:03 kados hope you're feeling better 23:03 thd kados: I am fine now. 23:04 thd kados: I did not eat because I was working to hard and a side effect of not eating is that it is easier to stay awake. 23:04 thd kados: not eating was not a plan, just something that happened in the course of working long hours without stopping. 23:05 thd kados: Then I was actually too tired to eat L) 23:06 kados heh 23:07 kados thd: try the new leader behavior on liblime's demo 23:07 thd That is a bad plan for accomplishing useful work by the week but it allows much to be done in a few days followed by a period of recovery. 23:08 thd kados: I have not checked yet but what have you changed about the leader plugin. Is it obvious? 23:08 thd oh 23:09 thd yes 23:10 thd the beginning should not have '|' as that is not defined for all places 23:13 kados thd: i made it so that clicking the mouse in the leader field, or 'tabbing' to it will auto-fill the default value 23:13 kados thd: I assume that's desirable behaviour 23:13 kados thd: (what beginning are you talking about?) 23:14 thd kados: autofill should not even require tabbing 23:15 thd kados: by beginning I meant the record size positions which are presumable filled by MARC::Record 23:15 kados thd: you mean the 'size of record'? 23:15 thd yes 23:16 kados thd: but every other blank should be represented by | ? 23:20 kados sorry, I thought that would be a quick question 23:27 thd kados: back now 23:28 thd that document has no values for the bibliographic leader yet 23:32 kados I added a simple 003 plugin that auto-fills the value with that specified in the syspref 23:33 kados but I'd also like to move the value that exists (along with the 001 I suppose) to the 035 23:33 kados if that's desirable 23:37 kados thd: ? 23:37 kados thd: are you still here? 23:38 thd kados: yes, sorry checking the documentation I see that '|' is not defined as a value for the leader only for some control field positions 23:39 kados ok 23:39 kados thanks 23:39 thd kados: the original default should have been fine but I had not looked for months 23:41 thd when I suggested the values to paul for a few places when he was writing a leader plugin for MARC 21 as well as UNIMARC 23:41 kados gotcha 23:41 kados thd: what is the logical record length? 23:41 thd kados: I noticed some oddities in your Koha to MARC mapping 23:41 kados thd: is it number of characters? or the size of the record in bytes? 23:42 kados thd: or some other measurement? 23:42 thd I believe that paul had determined that it was the the size in bytes 23:43 kados ok ... that makes sense considering encodings in unicode 23:43 thd therefore UTF-8 records would be larger if they have any accented characters 23:44 thd actually UTF-8 and MARC-8 and other library encodings are about the same size 23:45 thd only the ISO-8859 and other non-MARC encodings would be smaller for accented characters 23:47 thd kados: I noticed some oddities in your Koha to MARC mapping especially concerning the use of classification numbers in the biblioitemstable 23:48 kados thd: do tell 23:49 thd kados: may we commit a template change to substitute items.itemcallnumber instead of biblioitems classification number columns? 23:49 thd kados: paul had thought that this was a good idea long ago 23:51 Fujitsu Hi everyone. 23:51 kados thd: sure, but can you explain why? 23:51 kados Fujitsu: hi there 23:51 thd kados: then you would not have to worry about the classification values in the biblioitems table because they would have no real function outside of non-MARC Koha 23:52 kados thd: but call number is different than classification 23:52 Fujitsu I'm from a secondary school in Melbourne, Australia, and we're currently using Softlink's Alice. Is there an easy import mechanism, or will I have to write something to read in the data files and add the records (they are in a dBase format) 23:52 Fujitsu *? 23:53 kados Fujitsu: can you export as MARC? 23:53 thd kados: Your mapping shows the biblioitems class numbers mapped incorrectly. Actually MARC does not support a mapping that chris had originally intended. 23:53 Fujitsu Yes, kados. 23:53 kados Fujitsu: than you can import your records using the bulkmarcimport.pl script 23:53 Fujitsu Aha. Thanks. 23:54 kados np 23:54 thd kadosL: the call number is derived from the classification number with an additional prefix and suffix 23:54 kados thd: not always 23:54 kados thd: not at NPL for instance 23:55 thd kados: From whence does NPL derive its call numbers? 23:55 thd kados: NPL uses DDC 23:55 kados thd: the non-fiction is just the dewey number, the fiction follows a different scheme 23:56 thd I saw that in the logs what is that scheme 23:56 thd ? 23:56 thd Cutter classification derived from the name? 23:56 kados thd: (the scheme for fiction is a two-letter code for type of fiction (AF (adult fiction), SF (Science Fiction), M (mystery), etc.) followed by the author's last name 23:57 kados I don't know if it is an official scheme or one they invented 23:57 kados in any case, it must be dealt with 23:58 kados we can't adopt standards to the exclusion of non-standard libraries 23:58 thd kados: so they need to use 082 or something so that searching fiction works in DDC? 23:59 kados I'm not sure what their current cataloging practice is 23:59 kados as far as where in the mARC they store their custom call numbe 23:59 kados r 00:00 thd kados: They put them in 952 $k do they not? 00:00 kados probably 00:00 thd kados: and 952 $k is mapped to items.itemcallnumber 00:02 thd kados: Searches could work in parallel for DDC fiction by adding 082a 082b to the seealso 00:03 kados true 00:04 thd kados: only searching a range of class numbers may not function correctly at NPL for fiction if they are not using DDC call numbers. 00:04 kados right 00:05 thd kados: searching a range of call numbers will not work hardly at all for LC numbers with the current Koha range algorithm. 00:06 thd It may sometimes work but the whole hierarchy is different in LC and cannot be seen from merely inspecting the number. 00:07 thd range is not merely a set of arithmetical calculations in LCC 00:09 kados ye 00:09 kados p 00:09 kados Tumer's working on a fix for that 00:09 kados for 3.0 00:09 kados anyway, we've digressed 00:09 thd so back to my original suggestion I propose that we change the templates to show items.itemcallnumber instead of biblioitems.classification dewey subclass or whatever they are using now. 00:10 thd MARC templates only as something different was intended for non-MARC 00:14 thd kados: biblioitems.dewey was intended to be the part before the decimal in DDC while biblioitems.subclass was intended to be the part after the decimal in DDC. Each are contained withing 082 $a so they cannot be mapped correctly without code to split 082 $a at the decimal point. 00:15 thd kados: biblioitems.classification was meant to be the prefix for the call number like juvenile, fiction, or videos. 00:16 thd JUV, FIC, or VID 00:19 thd kados: biblioitems.classification maps to 852 $k but 852 is no longer maintained in Koha unless the library maintains it in addition to 952 or whatever field is mapped to the items table.. 00:22 thd kados: Therefore those biblioitems classification/call number fields cannot have the proper meaning in MARC Koha that had been intended in non-MARC Koha without unnecessary additional work. 00:23 kados thd: my clients map biblioitems.classification to 952$k I think 00:23 kados thd: and that _is_ maintained 00:23 kados thd: IIRC 00:25 thd kados: Do they map 952$k to both items.itemcallnumber and biblioitems.classification? 00:25 kados thd: no 00:25 kados thd: I think they map biblioitems.classification to a 942 and items.itemcallnumber to 952 ... check the file I gave you 00:32 thd kados: the file you gave me shows 050 $a mapped to biblioitems.classification and 050 $b to biblioitems.subclass which is not semantically correct as chris had intended and could be expected to have unusual searching results but maybe biblioitems.dewey should be mapped alternately to 082 $a or 050 $a for searching with the search templates as they are and then items.itemcallnumber should be what is displayed instead of biblioitems.classificatio 00:34 thd n unless a one to many mapping is possible 00:36 thd kados: other default mappings are plainly incorrect but of no consequence if you run rebuildnonmarc.pl after installing a good bibliographic framework 00:38 thd kados: the winner from the original Koha bibliographic framework is for a subfield that never existed in MARC 21 or US MARC.: biblio.notes 306 k Pkoi besoin de 2 champs? 00:39 kados thd: yea, no idea why that's there 00:39 kados thd: it's possible NBBC set that up incorrectly 00:39 kados thd: by accident or something 00:39 kados thd: oh ... it's from the original frameowork? 00:40 kados strange ... 00:40 thd When I noticed that some years ago on the koha.org demo I imagined that was from some experimental edit in the demo. 00:43 thd Yet even I added some French to the MARC 21 bibliographic framework with Recommendation 995 for field 995 without translating the labels :) 00:44 thd No one would ever see that unless 995 were populated and then it is only visible collapsed in the editor. 00:45 kados thd: it's not collapsed in the editor anymore :-) 00:45 kados thd: if there is a value it is expanded now :-) 00:47 thd kados: well it is not editor I assume that not editor has the same behaviour as before does it not? 00:48 thd kados: Or did you merely reverse the behaviour globally? 00:49 kados I did what you told me to 00:50 thd I am sure that I told you something good :) 00:51 thd kados: Do you know the meaning of 'pkoi'? 00:52 thd no Franglais people around? 00:53 kados no idea 00:53 thd kados: who is Tumer? 00:54 kados I've got to get to bed 00:54 kados If you read koha-devel lately there are some messages from Tumer 00:54 kados night thd 00:54 thd kados: I slept most of the day 00:54 kados read you tomorrow :-) 00:55 thd good night kados 00:55 kados thd: if you could finish a proper holdings scenerio for the MARC Framework that would be a great help (with mappings, etc.) 00:56 thd kados: I had been working on exactly that since I awoke again this afternoon 00:56 kados thd: excellent! 00:56 kados thd: I'll defer to your judgment and make any template modifications you suggest 00:57 thd kados: I ask so that I do not break anything 00:58 thd kados: I do not know the range of user configurations but I have been recommending that change for many months on the koha list and users seems very happy with it. 01:40 kados thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl 01:40 kados thd: tab through the fields and type characters in the fields and watch the leader change 01:41 thd I do not understand the instruction well 01:41 kados there are performance issues I'm afraid 01:41 kados otherwise, it's a cool feature 01:41 thd kados: Is this meant to dynamically change the leader? 01:42 kados thd: go to the page; tab to the leader or put your cursor in the leader field 01:42 kados thd: yes, is it working for you? 01:42 thd kados: are you calculating the number of bytes in the record? 01:42 kados thd: it's just a demo, it's not 100% accurate yet, but yes, that's the idea 01:43 kados thd: is it working? 01:43 thd kados: yes it is working. 01:44 kados thd: what do you think? :-) 01:44 thd kados: Does MARC::Record not do that when the record is finished? 01:44 kados thd: yea :-) but i thought it woudl be a cool thing to demo :-) 01:44 thd It is a very cool demo 01:45 thd ;;0 01:48 thd kdaos: your 003 plugin can be adapted for 040 and used as is on 040 $c which is supposedly mandatory for copy catalogued records. 01:49 kados ok 01:49 kados what else should appear in 040? 01:50 thd kados: if the record is a new original record then 040 $a would be the same as 003 01:50 kados ok 01:52 kados thd: I really do need to go to bed now 01:52 thd kados: if the record is edited then an additional non-redundant 040 $d should be added. 01:52 kados thd: after you finish the framework we can discuss creating more plugins 01:52 thd ok 01:53 kados g'night 01:53 kados thanks for the help 01:53 thd goodnight kados 01:59 Fujitsu Hmm.