Time Nick Message 07:15 paul c'est pas moi qui l'ai dit ! 07:14 osmoze du style pmb ? 07:14 osmoze cad ? 07:10 paul (pas comme certains autres SIGB libres qui annoncent des milliers d'installation) 07:09 paul (et puis je vais être mauvaise langue : contrairement à d'autres, nous n'annoncons que des chiffres vérifiables et minimums) 07:09 paul et nous n'aurons jamais 50 000 abonnés ! 07:08 paul cela dit, ce n'est pas anormal. Nous nous adressons à une niche très spécifique. 07:08 paul (pas sûr du chiffre) 07:07 osmoze en comparaison 07:06 osmoze ca fait pas enorme si c est la liste internationale :( 07:06 paul genre 500 07:06 paul dans la liste koha anglaises, il y a plusieurs centaines d'abonnés. 07:05 osmoze ok merci :) 07:05 paul non (c'est joshua l'admin). quelques dizaines 07:05 osmoze roh, aurais je loupé un mail ^^ 07:05 paul tu retardes, il me semble que j'ai récemment souhaité la bienvenue sur la liste à la personne qui a écrit juste après être inscrit et qui étit la 120° 07:04 osmoze et sur la devel, tu peux le savoir ? 07:04 paul 181 sur la liste annonce. 07:04 osmoze la derniere annonce sur la liste etait de 60, donc c est toujours ca :) 07:04 paul (on voit quelques désabonnements, et quelques abonnements, qui s'équilibrent) 07:03 paul 123. Ca stagne un petit peu 07:03 osmoze paul, il y a combien d inscrit sur la liste fr maintenant ? 07:02 paul nope 07:02 hdl paul ? 07:01 hdl Someone using mediatypetable around ? chris kados ??? 06:30 osmoze :) 06:29 paul hello les frenchies 06:29 hdl bonjour osmoze. 06:28 osmoze bonjour hdl :) 06:15 hdl hello 00:52 thd kados: I do not understand your last sentence. 00:51 kados thd: it becomes quite a large form element 00:50 kados thd: yep 00:44 thd kados: This would be to protect against data loss when adding items or otherwise editing records. 00:42 thd kados: I have thought that filling every unused field and subfield in unmanaged fields and subfields will preserve all obsolete and local use data that people might have. However, I am uncertain if that may introduce a noticeable performance drag on the framework. 00:02 chris yeah we think bad ram 00:02 kados woo ... back online 18:32 kados hehe 18:12 chris :) 18:12 chris not me either 18:11 thd kados: It was not I. 18:02 kados thd: did you just try to call? 17:30 thd kados: I still have much more to do. I will need to actually rest soon. :) 17:28 thd kados: I am having to add most of the fields in the MARC 21 specification. Most of the fields were in fact missing from the default framework. 17:26 thd kados: Do you want my SQL dump of marc_subfield_structure so far? 17:25 thd kados: What you had created the preference for was presentation only where the underlying data is valid. 17:23 thd kados: what is meant by the 650 X problem? Is that the economical MARC view that you made the preference with a standard value to avoid? Therefore the same problem to which chris is referring? 17:17 chris nice way to wake up 17:16 chris couple of nice emails from stephen and brooke though 17:16 chris probably not 17:16 kados or did it affect ordering too 17:16 chris could be 17:16 kados didn't that just put the '650' back in? 17:15 kados dunno 17:15 chris that bit? 17:15 chris http://opac.koha3.katipo.co.nz:81/cgi-bin/koha/opac-MARCdetail.pl?bib=29 17:14 chris is that what i fixed the other day? 17:13 kados me know 17:13 kados The 650 x problem is a big deal....Now, if there is away to make the subject subheadings play nice with their bigger brothers, let 17:13 kados thd: BWS Johnson just wrote: 14:34 kados " nam 7a 4500" 14:34 kados thd: the default value is: 14:33 kados thd: the default leader plugin makes no use of | 14:25 thd kados: he made a leader plugin for MARC 21 using the default I suggested because the leader is almost identical between MARC 21 and UNIMARC so the extra MARC 21 plugin was a trivial amount of extra work. 14:22 thd kados: the existing leader string default is already what I had suggested to paul. 14:21 thd kados: I gave you default values for minimal level books records yesterday. Do you want them again? 14:19 kados thd: I'll reintroduce | into the plugins as the default value where applicable 14:19 kados thd: can you construct a default leader value string? 14:19 kados thd: I found and fixed the problem with | btw 13:59 thd :) 13:59 thd kados: try to avoid exacerbating your condition when work is too much fun. 13:57 thd kados: 008 was a relatively recent addition to USMARC in the grand scheme of MARC time and initially had to use record parsing of textual data to apply it to old records retrospectively. 13:56 kados thd: still feeling pretty sick 13:56 kados thd: though I think I'll need to rest a bit first 13:56 kados thd: this will be quite easy to do 13:56 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0379.htm 13:56 kados thd: found a complete list: 13:55 thd kados: common 300 $b usage may not always be sufficient for good completion of BOOKS 008/18-21 but it can succeed most of the time. 13:47 thd kados: Whatever the virtues and vices of AACR3, it will not cure the legacy records. 13:46 kados heh 13:45 thd kados: when you were becoming very fatigued yesterday I explained that AACR3 is a complete rewrite where the committee threw out the first draft and had to start over because of too many objections. 13:43 kados ahh ... coming in 2007 13:43 kados is AACR3 out yet? 13:43 thd kados: it is rule 2.5C1-2.5C2. 13:42 kados I can't find one ... would that be in AARC? 13:41 kados is there a comprehensive list of possible values for 300$b? 13:38 thd kados: although you may not want to miss the typos :) 13:37 thd kados: ill. and col. are the standard AACR2 abbreviations 13:36 thd kados: also ~=/col[.o]/ for variations of colour etc. 13:36 kados right 13:35 thd s/ill\[\.a-z\]/ill[.u]/ 13:32 thd kados so you regular expression search of 300 $b would be looking for ~=/ill[.a-z]/ and many other things. 13:29 thd kados: 300 $b 13:28 kados right 13:27 thd s/coded/abbreviated/ 13:26 thd kados: illustrations would be coded in 300 13:24 thd kados: illustrations and content elements for books to use in 008. 13:24 kados I dont' remember them ... 13:23 thd kados: you had two from yesterday. 13:23 kados thd: ie, an example of when this should happen and how? 13:22 kados thd: can we get a case scenerio for auto-updating a fixed field from another field's value? 13:22 thd kados: I need to write the sole remaining LC CDS technical services employee back to obtain a set of bibliographic test files. 13:21 kados right 13:20 thd kados: one record is not a sufficient test. Many varied and troublesome records might be. 13:19 kados yep 13:19 thd kados: I attached a comment to 997 long ago qualifying the original statement which had been underinformed. 13:18 kados thd: (until we fix the framework) 13:18 kados thd: (use of an external cataloging client solves that problem) 13:17 kados thd: then export again and do a 'diff' on it 13:17 kados thd: import a record using bulkmarcimport 13:17 thd kados: Also creating original record content and editing existing content are still issues. 13:17 kados thd: we should do a test 13:17 kados thd: there are no preservation issues to my knowledge 13:16 thd kados: The detail view and the ISBD view have problems with repeated subfields outside of 6XX which has been fixed. 13:15 kados thd: 'mostly' ? 13:14 kados thd: i think some judicious use of javascript could really make the process of editing a record much easier 13:14 thd kados: the preservation and display issues for 997 have been mostly corrected thanks to paul. 13:13 kados thd: even if not displaying it as expected 13:13 kados thd: of course, your criticism of that record isn't quite on, since Koha would preserve subfield order in that case 13:12 kados thd: OK ... just read 997's 505 paragraph 13:12 thd kados: I told them what they ought to do but they had not even thought of that. 13:11 kados yep 13:11 thd kados: I just described the TLC editor but it is mostly a free text editor. 13:10 kados and I'm pretty sure it handles subfield repeatability 13:10 kados TLC's editor is pretty nice 13:10 thd kados: the best that I have seen have context sensitive pop-up help files for the field that you are on. 13:08 thd kados: no others do not to the extent that I have investigated. 13:08 kados thd: don't other editors do this already? 13:08 thd paul: If we could get element repeatability and ordering fixed in the record editor working well then Koha would be a generation ahead of other record editors. 13:08 kados but right now, i think Koha's editor is 'entry-level' 13:07 kados now ... hopefully, with 2.2.6 or soon after, that will change 13:07 kados if you want to ensure good data in your db 13:07 kados using an external editor is still a good idea 13:07 kados my opinion is that it's a nice feature, but realistically, for us libraries, Koha's editor isn't up to par yet 13:06 thd paul: It is something that every system should have yet without almost a single exception none do. 13:05 thd paul: It is certainly the single best feature of Koha. 13:04 thd paul: I have been urging kados and owen to look at that and authorities handling since many months ago but they had no time then ;) 13:03 kados thd: lets pospone the repeatability problem and figure out which fields/valus should be auto-set based on other fields 13:03 thd kados: just try and avoid blinders about how every friendly user interface reorders elements in a list. 13:02 kados thd: paul just showed me how to update information from one field to another using a plugin 13:01 thd kados: you should create anything that is easy enough to create valid records. A more efficient scheme can always be added later. 12:58 thd kados: The most efficient way to create the 505 example would be to populate the field with many author title pairs ordered by a framework ordering default for that field and then cut and paste text from an OCR scan of the table of contents. 12:53 thd kados: especially the 505 example would be rather tedious to create one repeated subfield at a time and then moving it into the correct relative position. 12:51 thd kados: look at the multiple publishers 260 and the formatted table of contents 505 examples in bug 997. 12:50 thd kados: you often want supplementary groups of subfields that work together in a particular order. 12:49 thd kados: you have the basic concept right about why I thought a pop-up might be good or an insert more link but not limited to inserting another copy of the single adjacent subfield. 12:47 thd kados: It is not a need but just what I thought might be more efficient. 12:47 kados not always a duplicate of the same one? 12:46 kados ? 12:46 kados $b 12:46 kados $a 12:46 kados $x 12:46 kados $a 12:46 kados thd: because sometimes you would want: 12:46 kados thd: explain why we need a pop-up 12:46 thd kados: That is fine then as long as we can get more new repeatable subfields in there somehow. 12:45 thd s/additional/additional subfields/ 12:44 kados thd: the last design I worked up moved the content as well as the designator, etc. 12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:13:37+-5 <thd:#koha> kados: The issue is not only about creating content from a completely empty record but adding additional in the midst of an already existing record. in the midst of an already existing set of subfields. 12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:10:15+-5 <thd:#koha> kados: If you do use arrows for moving any completed subfield content should also move. 12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:49+-5 <thd:#koha> kados: actually a pop-up insertion form accessible from a link before and after every subfield is probably easier than moving arrows around. Moving arrows is how it is commonly done in user interfaces but not necessarily the most efficient. 12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:30+-5 <thd:#koha> kados: Subfield order changing should allow the insertion of any subfield before an already completed subfield. I am uncertain that the example you showed for order changing was heading in that direction for already completed subfields. 12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:09+-5 <thd:#koha> kados: In addition to +- signs for subfield repeatability there should be an add more subfields link that brings up a pop-up to add a group of repeatable subfields selected from a checkbox according to a sequence specified in a framework parameter. 12:42 kados thd: didnt see them 12:40 thd kados: I had been disconnected and then reposted them. 12:40 kados thd: no 12:39 thd kados: did you see my comments about your approach to subfield ordering late last night? 12:38 thd paul: I know you had expected to have subfield reordering working for 2.2.6, however, I am asking about adding additional repeated subfields. 12:37 kados paul: but I"ll show you what I have later (or tomorrow most likely) 12:36 kados paul: my demo has it currently turned off because I have a web demo to a client later this afternon and it's not quite stable 12:36 kados paul: I think I have devised a better scheme that prevents ordering outside of a tag 12:36 kados paul: I have beeen playing with subfield reordering 12:35 thd paul: Is that prose too turgid for understanding? 12:32 thd paul hdl: Do you plan for framework specified subfield repeatability to be useful in the record editor for 2.2.6? 12:31 paul nope. I had dozens of "connection lost" because of a connection failure. 12:30 thd paul: did you wee my question from much earlier this morning? 12:29 thd kados: The disparity of library science practise causes problems for the IFLA where both rich county and poor country practise must be accommodated. 12:29 paul_away hdl ? 12:27 thd kados: LCC dates from the beginning of the last century but LCSH are closer to mid-century. 12:24 thd kados: The oldest items at LC have no subject headings only classification by the LC Classification System. 12:23 thd kados: Actually the subject thesaurus is an invention of the last century. 12:22 thd kados: Subject guided access needs an expensively maintained thesaurus to work well. 12:21 thd kados: That is not a US practise but it does go on in some countries where the library science tradition is about correctly identifying the edition but not subject guided access. 12:20 kados thd: well, I mean koha.liblime.com of course 12:20 kados thd: does Koha conform to the minimal level now? 12:19 kados thd: how is that possible? 12:19 kados thd: yea 12:19 thd kados: what was the last link meant to show? That subject headings are optional at the minimal level? 12:17 thd kados: I also hope that the blank indicators for control fields using the '@' subfield hack are being discarded. 12:16 thd kados: one value list for two indicators is a problem. 12:16 thd kados: Indicators are troublesome because they do not yet have a link for plugin management in the framework. Only manual entry and value lists are provided. 12:15 kados why does the minimal level not include the 600s? 12:14 kados http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/nlr/nlr6xx.html 12:14 thd kados: the indicator positions are there, at least the last time I looked. 12:13 thd kados: 003 does not need to change in bibliographic records but continually repopulating it would cause no problem. 12:12 kados thd: are there no indicators shown on the current editor? 12:12 kados thd: yep, it does 12:12 thd kados: your plugin for 008 seemed to accept the values that were already there. 12:12 kados we should use a different plugin for that anyway 12:12 kados I guess it's just 003 12:11 kados wait i might be wrong here 12:11 kados thd: all fields 12:11 thd ? 12:11 thd kados: Which fields have the problem to which you are referring for new and existing records. 12:10 thd kados: It should be one framework that can be transmuted by changing control field values but that is a long term goal. 12:08 kados thd: is that going to confuse catalogers? 12:08 thd kados: about 25 frameworks 12:08 kados thd: it works already for some fields, like 'date' 12:08 kados thd: yes I agree, but I'm not sure they can do this currently 12:08 thd kados: The plugins should test for empty values and only overwrite what is empty. 12:08 kados I could be wrong though 12:08 kados but I don't think we can have a single framework for the whole national level 12:07 kados right ... we still need subfield repeatability and reordering though 12:07 thd kados: We need a minimal level and a national level. The national level is merely to prove that national level will work on the Koha record editor. 12:06 kados thd: and I'm not sure I have control over when a plugin works and when it doesn't 12:06 kados thd: if you try to edit an existing record, it will replace many of the fields with new values 12:05 kados thd: because take koha.liblime.com for example 12:05 thd kados: I do not understand the reason for that 12:04 kados at least with the current scheme ... right? 12:04 kados and one for editing existing records 12:04 kados one for original cataloging 12:04 kados it seems like we need two for each materials designation 12:04 thd yes kados 12:03 kados thd: so ... getting back to the frameworks 12:00 kados and do speed tests 12:00 kados this week I plan to fix that 12:00 kados in part because it creates a new connection for each update 12:00 kados yea, it's slow 12:00 hdl Quite long... 12:00 kados and it's showing up in the log? 12:00 kados cool! 12:00 kados run it and see what happens 11:59 kados make sure you export KOHA_CONF 11:59 kados hdl: so now you are ready to attempt to run rebuild_zebra.pl 11:59 kados hdl: ok ... 11:50 kados bbiab 11:50 hdl (Logs are impressive !!!) 11:50 hdl and rebuild_zebra 11:49 hdl But I launched zebrasrv 11:49 hdl Now, I did. 11:49 hdl I hadnot at that time. 11:49 kados (see above comments :-)) 11:48 kados mkdir lock 11:48 hdl 11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [log][app2] zebra_stop 11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [warn] open lock/shadow..LCK [No such file or directory] 11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [warn] open lock/norm..LCK [No such file or directory] 11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [log] zebra_start zebra.cfg 1.3.32 11:48 hdl But it answered : 11:48 kados in the same location as zebra.cfg 11:48 kados it should be a blank directory 11:48 kados do you have a biblios directory? 11:48 kados I believe you must use zebraidx update biblios 11:48 kados wait ... it's not the same 11:47 hdl I did so. 11:47 kados same thing 11:47 kados zebraidx init 11:47 kados you could also say: 11:47 kados ... set up the basics for me 11:47 kados hdl: that command tells zebra: OK ... this is a valid zebra database 11:47 hdl zebraidx update biblios : what does it do ? 11:47 kados let me know when you get that far 11:47 kados NOW ... you are ready to attempt to rebuild_zebra.pl 11:46 kados it will start zebra 11:46 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100/kohatest 11:46 kados then type: 11:46 kados when update happens successfully (hopefully you have no records in biblios, I forgot to mention) 11:46 kados that command tells zebra: OK ... this is a valid zebra database ... set up the basics for me 11:45 kados you may need to 'mkdir lock' first ... it will warn you 11:45 kados zebraidx update biblios 11:45 hdl ok 11:45 kados cd zebra 11:45 hdl now done 11:44 thd kados: you would need about 25 frameworks. 11:44 kados ln -s misc/zebra/unimarc zebra 11:44 kados type: 11:44 kados go to cvs koha directory 11:44 kados at the bottom 11:44 kados zebradb=localhost:2100/kohatest 11:43 kados edit koha.conf to include: 11:43 hdl done 11:43 kados check out latest head cvs 11:43 kados so here's what to do: 11:43 kados same thing 11:42 hdl 2.2.4 in fact 11:42 kados hdl: are you converting a 2.2.5 system to use zebra? 11:41 kados hdl: those instructions are too old to use 11:41 kados hdl: not anymore 11:41 hdl kados : why rm -f biblios ? 11:41 kados thd: it would require many many frameworks to handle all those requirements 11:40 thd good morning kados 11:40 kados thd: been thiking about that list and Koha's current frameworks 11:40 hdl morning thd 11:40 kados thd: http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/nlr/nlr00x.html 11:40 kados thd: morning :-) 11:40 thd kados: not since last night. 11:40 kados heh 11:40 hdl :D 11:40 hdl :) 11:40 kados oops .. I mean hdl :-) 11:40 hdl I(hdl) am now 11:39 kados thd: are you using latest cvs? 11:39 kados then run rebuild_zebra.pl 11:39 kados using above command 11:39 kados start zebra 11:39 hdl ? 11:39 kados correct 11:39 hdl Then run zebra index engine 11:39 hdl one need to launch a zebra server before rebuild_zebra.pl 11:33 kados I will write a new set very soon 11:33 kados yea, they are a bit outdated :-) 11:33 hdl I followed your notes ;) 11:32 kados where kohatest is the db name in koha.conf 11:32 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100/kohatest 11:32 kados you need to use: 11:32 hdl zebrasrv @2100 11:32 kados hdl: how did you start zebra? 11:32 kados indexing even 11:32 kados I don't think we're doing any FULLTEXT indesing 11:31 kados that DBD error is quite strange 11:31 kados interesting 11:30 hdl and DBD::mysql::db do failed: The used table type doesn't support FULLTEXT indexes at ./updatedatabase line 1029. for bibliosubtitle or bibliothesaurus 11:29 hdl updatedatabase worked fine... apart from some : no mapping found for some characters. 11:28 hdl ZOOM error 10000 "Connect failed" (addinfo: "localhost:2100") from diag-set 'ZOOM' 11:28 hdl Error 10000 : Connect failed 11:27 hdl rebuild_zebra.pl doesnot seem to work : 11:27 hdl my tab is in /usr/local/share/idzebra/tab 11:26 hdl *kados : can you exmplain what I did wrong ? 11:26 hdl On which you can click to browse other biblio on the same author/subject 11:25 hdl Link, will display a glass after author or subject for instance. 11:25 hdl Search also will search in other fields. 11:24 hdl Yes. 11:24 hdl When paul comes ack, he can explain 11:24 kados hdl: it is different than 'Search also' thohugh right? 11:24 hdl kados : link feature seems to allow ppl to search for data like the one selected but I donot know more. 11:22 hdl 11:22 hdl [Thu Feb 23 15:21:16 2006] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] Can't call method "option" on an undefined value at /home/hdl/Koha/Code/savannah/koha-dev/koha//C4/SearchMarc.pm line 242., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/koha/search.marc/search.pl?type=intranet 11:22 hdl [Thu Feb 23 15:21:16 2006] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7/i386-linux/ZOOM.pm line 280., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/koha/search.marc/search.pl?type=intranet 11:22 hdl QUERY : Title= "chaos" at /home/hdl/Koha/Code/savannah/koha-dev/koha//C4/SearchMarc.pm line 237., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/koha/search.marc/search.pl?type=intranet 11:22 kados hdl: fun :-) 11:22 kados hdl: could you briefly explain the 'Link' feature in MARC subfields constraints? 11:21 kados it seems no 11:21 kados hdl: is paul here? 11:21 hdl hi 11:21 kados hdl: I'm here now