Time Nick Message 13:01 kados morning owen 17:48 chris monring 17:48 chris morning even 17:48 owen Hi chris 17:49 shedges moonring to you! 17:50 chris heh 17:50 chris did you even play a game called 17:50 chris 'the lords of midnight' ? 17:50 shedges ?? nope 17:50 chris i had it on my old zx spectrum when i was 12 or so. 17:51 chris there was a moon ring in that :) 17:51 shedges maybe the typo was subconscious? 17:51 owen Wow, logbot spoke! 17:52 chris ?? speak 17:52 chris i wonder what it knows the definitions of 17:53 shedges ?? logbot 17:53 shedges (doesn't even know it's own name) 17:54 chris :) 18:14 chris is kados about ? 18:28 kados chris: yep 18:28 kados chris: howdy :-) 18:29 chris heya 18:29 kados just the man I need to speak to :-) 18:29 chris do you remember your mailman admin password for savanah ? cos i dont, i was wonderign if you could find that google groups subscription and kill it 18:29 kados (basically, they don't work in 2.2.5 :-) 18:29 kados yep, I'll take care of it 18:32 kados chris: horowhena uses fines right? 18:32 kados chris: did you have to tweak fines2.pl before it would work for them? 18:32 chris hmm dont remember doing 18:32 chris that 18:33 kados fines don't seem to be working for two of our clients 18:33 chris whats it doing wrong? 18:33 chris just 2? 18:33 kados well ... I dont' think it's doing anything :-) 18:33 kados honestly, I'm at a loss for how to troubleshoot it 18:34 kados I've got a cron job in 18:34 kados /etc/cron.daily/wlpl.daily 18:34 kados looks like this: 18:34 kados #!/bin/sh 18:34 kados export PERL5LIB=/home/kohatest/cvsrepos/2.2.x/koha 18:34 kados export KOHA_CONF=/home/kohatest/etc/koha.conf 18:34 kados /home/kohatest/cron/fines2.pl 18:35 kados EXITVALUE=$? 18:35 kados if [ $EXITVALUE != 0 ]; then 18:35 kados echo "Problem with setting fines" 18:35 kados fi 18:35 kados exit 0 18:35 chris ahh is the fines stuff set up in issuingrules.pl ? 18:35 kados it's got proper permissions and fines2 has proper permissions 18:35 kados yea, i think so 18:35 chris have you run it by hand? 18:36 kados yea, it seems to do _something_ 18:36 kados but I think it only does stuff with longoverdu items 18:36 kados ie, lost stuff 18:36 kados it doesn't increment fines as you'd expect 18:36 kados so I have a user account, I check out a book, a week later I check, and no fines on that user 18:37 kados even though that user should increment fines after 3 days 18:37 chris have you tried 18:37 chris my $DEBUG=1; 18:37 chris then running it by hand 18:37 kados nope 18:38 chris id do that, and it will tell you if its finding overdues 18:38 chris and if its finding overdues, but the fines arent being placed 18:38 chris then its because 18:38 chris if ($amount > 0){ 18:39 chris $amount isnt getting set .. which means CalcFine isnt working 18:40 chris which is in C4::Circulation::Fines; 18:40 chris and usually it doesnt work, because the rules arent set up 18:40 kados hmmm 18:40 chris altho there are other reasons 18:40 chris hmm that looks likes it found overdues 18:41 chris and is wanting to place changes 18:41 chris charges even 18:41 chris of 10 cents 18:41 kados that sounds about right 18:42 kados but see the '891' found 18:42 chris yeah thats right 18:42 kados aren't 891 listed there? 18:42 kados why only a few dozen? 18:42 chris its only the ones that fall on todays cycle 18:43 kados ahh 18:43 kados so that makes sense 18:43 kados but ... it's not updating them right? 18:43 kados or it's only updating some of them 18:43 chris doesnt look like it 18:43 chris hmm yeah where is the insert line 18:43 kados are the categories hard-coded in there ... could that be why? 18:43 chris 2 secs 18:44 chris ah no .. its UpdateFine 18:44 chris id suspect that 18:45 chris id take a look at that, and put some prints in there 18:45 chris and see why its not doing the update 18:45 chris i think there are a bunch of prints you can uncomment 18:45 kados i as in there, already uncommented the prints 18:45 kados was even 18:45 kados the 'not in account' one is printed 18:46 chris hmm right 18:46 chris so its a new fine 18:47 chris so it looks like the sth2->execute isnt working for some reason 18:47 chris could put a || die $sth2->err_str; 18:47 chris on the end of that line 18:47 chris and run it again and see if it dies, and tells you why 18:48 kados k 18:49 kados chris: ok ... now it's a slightly different message ... didn't die though 18:49 kados output in the same place as before 18:49 chris does it say updating? 18:49 chris sweet 18:49 chris that looks exactly right 18:49 kados huh 18:50 chris ie there is .10 already on .. it doenst need updating 18:50 kados if so, why isn't my account reflecting charges? 18:50 kados after two weeks of having an item out 18:50 chris are you in that list? 18:50 chris check one of the accounts of the ppl that is in that list 18:51 kados yea, looks right 18:51 chris then id checked issuingrules.pl for the itemtype and your member type 18:51 kados so maybe my cron job's not running? 18:51 kados yea, checked that a dozen times 18:51 chris right 18:51 chris id suspect the cron job then 18:51 chris can you set it up to email you when it runs? 18:52 chris if it emailed you this output (take out the die statement first :-)) 18:52 chris then it would help spot what is going wrong 18:52 kados right 18:52 chris ie fines2.pl | mailx -s Fines joshua@liblime.com 18:53 chris something like that anyway 18:53 kados right 18:54 chris so check that that works from the commandline .. then set it up for the cron job to do it 18:54 chris and if you dont get mail .. the cron job isnt running 18:54 kados right 18:54 kados so the | means 'and' ? 18:54 chris pipe 18:54 kados ahh 18:54 chris to a process 18:54 kados right 18:54 kados duh :-) 18:54 chris > = pipe to a file 18:55 chris so my cron job looks a little like this 18:57 chris 50 17 * * * perl -I /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules/ /usr/local/koha/intranet/scripts/misc/fines2.pl | mailx -s "fines" chris@katipo.co.nz 18:57 chris in the crontab 18:58 chris (something like that anyway) 18:59 kados right 18:59 kados thanks! 19:01 chris np 19:04 kados chris: so tomorrow's the first day of full-time Koha work, eh? 19:04 kados excited? :-) 19:05 kados I know I am :-) 19:07 chris ahh, first there is work for someone else .. setting me up a test machine and getting head running so i can start debugging 19:07 chris which will give me time to try and clear some stuff off my timesheet 19:09 kados if that would help 19:09 chris i think we will run up a xen instance .. ill get nice ping times to it 19:12 thd kados chris: Is Koha now being tied more closely to MySQL specifically? 19:12 kados thd: yep, with db constraints we're probably tied to mysql 4.1 19:13 kados thd: not sure if postgres supports the same constraints as mysql 4.1 19:13 kados or oracle ... 19:13 kados or SQL Server :-) 19:14 kados though I couldn't say for sure 19:14 kados hi j0se 19:14 kados j0se: welcome to #koha 19:16 thd kados: Why are the constraints strictly necessary? 19:16 j0se hi kados, thanks, hope eveyone is alright 19:16 kados thd: bbiab 19:17 kados j0se: yep, all doing well here ... busy as usual, but a good busy :-) 19:45 kados thd: so ... constraints 19:45 kados the main advantage to db constraints is they don't limit the security of the db to the mercy of the perl scripts 19:46 kados in other words, we get to define some features of the business logic of the ILS in the db itself 19:46 kados so the scripts can't do anything funny that we didn't realize they were doing 19:48 owen Something MySQL apologists used to say should be handled by the scripts anyway, you sloppy programmers! ;) 19:48 kados hehe 19:48 thd kados: :) 19:49 thd kados: certainly those things could still be handled in Perl based constraints. 19:49 kados thd: most major ILSes boast about their constraints ... and I"ve had clients ask whether Koha had them 19:49 kados thd: so I'm very happy now that we do :-) 19:50 kados in fact, it was one of the major points that INEO made when they visited Athens 19:50 kados of course, it's debatable how necessary they are, but having them will be a great selling point 19:50 thd kados: Postgres and Oracle had always had constraints the question is are they compatible. 19:51 kados and I think I was wrong before when I said that we were tied to mysql 19:51 kados what I meant was that mysql users will be tied to version 4.1 19:51 kados I'd be very surprised if the Mysql constraints paul has done aren't compatible with posgres, oracle and SQL Server 19:52 kados and I doubt it'd be hard to fix any incompatibilities were they to be 19:52 thd kados: many important customers will never trust MySQL however many constraints you add within MySQL. 19:52 kados (and anyone running postgres or oracle is likely to know how to do this) 19:52 kados well, good news is that when we switch to innodb we can claim we're running an Oracle db :-) 19:53 kados since Oracle now owns innodb :-) 19:53 kados I'm really looking forward to writing the marketing materials for Koha 3.0 :-) 19:54 thd kados: I have been trying to figure out the new Debian multi-version PostresSQL model which broke my Postgres in etch. 20:13 thd kados:: would it not make more sense to plan the DB dependent things to be compatible Postgres? 20:13 kados thd: do you know of any Koha users running postgres? 20:14 thd kados: no but even 2.X would break some things. 20:15 kados my point is, dont' expect us to test compatibility with postgres when noone's using it :-) 20:15 thd or some things would be broken in Postgres for the current version. 20:15 kados if someone wants to use postgres, they can test and fix compatibility probs 20:15 kados this is open source :-) 20:16 thd kados: I would be happy to try my local mail system was running in Postgres :) 20:17 thd kados: I know there are some MySQL dependent instructions. What did your Oracle customer do about those in 2.X? 20:19 kados there is a library somewhere using Koha on oracle 20:19 kados I don't remember who 20:19 thd kados: Katipo's customer? 20:20 russ nope not us 20:25 thd kados: I had proposed a multi-DB design to test against some DB flavour parameter and then run the correct code for the particularities of whatever flavour was installed in cases of unavoidable syntax incompatibility. 20:26 thd kados: chris and paul had been very pleased with the idea at the time. 20:26 kados thd: did you write the proposal to koha-devel? 20:27 chris im happy with that idea .. just dont expect me to write the code :-) 20:28 thd kados: No but I assumed that everyone thought it better to not tie things to a particular DB and that would have made it into the Koha programming guidelines on koha.docs.org by now. 20:28 chris there are tradeoffs 20:29 chris if i have to do something that is fully ansi compliant, but slower, ill do it the faster way, for time critical things like circulation 20:29 thd chris: do you have a customer now using normal acquisitions with 2.X? 20:29 chris but that doesnt stop someone else adding the code to do it another way 20:29 chris yes 20:30 kados chris++ 20:30 thd chris: Is that code fully committed to CVS now and working in 2.5? 20:30 chris no 20:31 chris because its totally nz dependent 20:31 chris as part of my work on 3.0 ill generalise it and commit it 20:31 thd chris: why or in what way is it NZ dependent? 20:32 russ there is a bunch of stuff 20:32 chris why because time was short and we needed fix all the stuff that got broken going from 1.2 to 2.0 as fast as possible 20:33 chris it converts currency to nz dollars for a start, which isnt much use if you arent in nz 20:33 chris if there were 38 hours in a day, id have fixed that, and committed it 20:34 thd chris russ kados: excessive haste makes for ungeneralised, read it may work but you cannot fix it or improve it, coding :) 20:35 chris yep, in an ideal world clients wouldnt want there fixes now, but would have time to allow us to do generalised fixes 20:35 chris unfortunately its not the reality at all, so we do the best we can, and try to fix it when we get a chance 20:36 thd chris: there are 38 hours in some of my days but I then have to sleep for two days straight to recover or be useless the rest of the week. 20:36 chris :) 20:37 russ thd: we have to do the best we can given our client constraints 20:38 thd chris: I have been useless for most of the past month and a half over contesting a fine arising out of using the wrong type of ticket for $1.25 subway fare in Newark, New Jersey. 20:40 thd chris: I could have paid a $75 fine by mail but it would have meant pleading guilty to an offence that I was not guilty of so instead of a day in court I got a week in gaol for contempt and all my time lost to chasing lawyers down in case they had prosecuted me for contempt. 20:41 thd chris: stay out of court in high crime areas and you will have much more time to work on Koha. 20:43 thd chris: If you are in court for any reason never make even a truthful comment about the judge that might get back to him. 20:43 chris both good points 20:45 thd chris: I learnt the most painful way possible. It would have never happened in any real court though and never in New York where I live and know the all the public transport fare schemes. 20:52 thd chris kados: Most of the SQL code I have written has been for Postgres including the part that causes problems in Postgres 8.X. I am certainly willing to try to make a proposal on Koha -devel about at least having placeholder code for 3.0 so the routine can fit and just maybe we might try to avoid something that simply could not be replicated properly in Postgres or Oracle. 20:56 thd chris kados: Do you have any immediate thoughts about problems of adding placeholder code to allow for DB flavoured routines. It could default to MySQL if no DB flavour parameter.is set. 20:56 kados I don't 20:57 kados isn't that what dbi is for? 21:00 thd kados: Yes except if you are building structures hat are MySQL specific or calling with MySQL syntax then there are problems that could be avoided while the code is being written by even merely providing a place for alternate code. 21:01 thd kados: DBI is also often if not necessarily set to use the flavour it has been set to call. 21:03 kados thd: if I may be so bold, I think your time is better spent handling problems we're facing right now, than problems we might face if someone were to want to use postgres 21:03 kados thd: :-) 21:04 thd kados: A significant issue that would certainly cause problems for Postgres 8.X as opposed to earlier versions is the use schemas. The schemas need to be referenced properly otherwise no SQL code will work in Postgres 8.X. 21:06 thd kados: Agreed, my proposal is merely about writing the place-holding structure for alternate code into the routines now while the code is being written rather than doing twice as much work to add it later. 21:07 thd kados chris: does that make sense? 21:07 kados thd: it won't hurt to write a message to koha-devel 21:08 kados thd: if writing the place-holding structure is trivial maybe chris or paul will allow for it while they're in there 21:08 kados thd: but don't be too dissapointed if it doesn't get done :-) 21:09 thd kados: Exactly, I will write a proposal on koha-devel late tonight. 21:10 thd kados: I am sometimes disappointed but never discouraged :) 21:11 kados :-) 22:39 kados hey rach 22:39 kados how's the little guy? 22:39 kados (what's his name?) 22:50 rach benjamin ockleston blake 22:51 rach ben - and he is sleeping in his pram at the moment, putting on weight well, generally growing and seems pretty happy 22:52 kados nice 22:52 rach there are some new pics - http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album162 22:52 rach http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album162/img_0268 22:52 rach is pretty cute 22:52 kados heh 22:53 kados damn cute :-) 22:55 rach we got lucky, he is generally thought to be a good looking baby :-) 22:58 kados heh 23:00 kados wow ... si ... you shaved your head! 23:05 rach welli t is the internet I guess :-) 23:05 rach yep si shaved his head a while back now, no more pony tail for him 02:56 kados pre-pre launch announcement for Labs.LibLime.Com: 02:56 kados http://labs.liblime.com/ 02:56 kados have a look, one and all :-) 03:10 thd-away kados: are you in bed yet? 03:12 thd chris: are you still there? 03:14 kados thd: not quite yet 03:15 thd kados: opencatalog did not work for me should it have? 03:16 kados sorry that links not valid just yet 03:16 kados and the teamipg codes not working yet 03:17 kados pre-pre release :-) 03:17 thd kados: I even had an error for team 42 03:17 kados really>? for team42? 03:17 thd kados: yes XML error 03:18 kados for what search? 03:18 thd kados: yes 03:19 thd kados: is there a needed syntax? 03:19 thd kados: I tried objective knowledge as a title search 03:20 kados ahh ... maybe the keyword searching is broken 03:20 thd kados: that is book by Karl Popper 03:20 kados I'll have a look in the morning 03:20 thd kados: Is there a good title to search or what is the search running against? 03:20 kados g'nite Koha :-) 03:21 thd good night Kados 03:24 thd chris: are you still awake? 04:59 osmoze bonjour 05:37 thd good morning osmoze 05:38 paul hello everybody 05:38 thd good morning paul 05:48 thd happy hunting paul 08:27 paul hello hdl