Time Nick Message 17:56 kados hey owen 17:56 owen Hey kados 04:08 hdl hi world 04:10 chris hi hdl 04:11 hdl hi chris. 04:11 hdl paul is around. 04:11 chris hi paul :) 04:11 paul hello world. 04:11 paul i confirm i'm here ;-) 04:17 chris i see france won the 6 nations 04:18 paul yep. last minute try, that gave us enough points to win... 04:18 chris :) 04:21 chris hi toins 04:21 toins hello chris 09:29 kados morning all 09:29 toins hello kados 09:29 kados toins: ! 09:30 kados toins: good to read you 09:30 toins kados, how are you ? 09:30 kados toins: will you be applying to Google Summer of Code? 09:31 toins kados, i'll be really happy & proud to participate to the ggl soc... 09:31 kados excellent 09:31 kados do you think open cataloguer or opencontent is a better project? 09:31 toins but i don't have enough info 09:31 toins opencontent ? 09:31 kados oops 09:31 kados openshare tags 09:32 kados paul's idea 09:32 kados that's what I meant :-) 09:32 toins ah ok 09:32 toins hehe 09:32 hdl morning kados. 09:32 kados morning hdl 09:32 toins i think opensharetags could be a good project, yes. 09:32 kados hdl: I have set up a git repo 09:32 kados hdl: fyi ... just testing it out 09:33 kados hdl: it seems nice so far 09:33 kados toins: what is the status of opencataloger? 09:33 toins kados, a first version will be released very soon 09:34 kados toins: are you the primary author? 09:34 toins kados, yes 09:35 toins the only one in fact.. 09:35 kados toins: are you happy to work on opencataloger? or are you tired of it? :-) 09:35 toins kados, i'm never tired !! 09:36 kados hdl: I have been integrating the YUI libraries into Koha with the following result: 09:36 kados http://kados.org/stuff/yui_borrowers.png 09:36 toins and i'm happy to work on opencat 09:36 kados hdl: we need to decide hwo to approach templates in 3.0 09:36 kados toins: cool 09:36 hdl paul 09:37 kados is paul back? 09:37 toins hdl, paul not around yet 09:37 hdl kados : paul should be back soon 09:37 kados *nod* 09:37 kados hdl: look at the link above for a screenshot 09:37 hdl what you showed me was pretty. 09:37 hdl I saw. 09:37 kados cool 09:38 hdl But I am not keen on big + 09:38 kados hehe 09:39 kados toins: http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=googlesummerofcodeideas 09:39 hdl Maybe a sign just as create new file on Kate would be better. 09:39 kados toins: look at the first paragraph 09:39 toins ok 09:39 kados hdl: Kate? 09:39 kados hdl: do you have a image in mind? 09:40 kados hdl: I can put any image of a similar size behind the buttons 09:42 kados for instance, the button is represented as: <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span> 09:43 hdl Not so clean. 09:44 kados right 09:44 kados so maybe it should be a /liblime/ template and we should leave prog alone 09:44 kados but ... the problem is that prog is not so clean either :-) 09:45 hdl I agree. 09:46 hdl But I'd rather not have to many nested span declarations without any content. I donot find it handy on long term dev. 09:46 hdl Don't you think ? 09:47 kados I agree 09:50 toins kados, my main problem for ggl soc is that i'm not available during august.... 09:50 toins and if we need to respect this deadline => http://code.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=60325&topic=10729 it's impossible... 09:51 toins :-/ 09:51 kados bummer 09:55 toins kados, is it not possible to begin in june and to finish in july ? 09:55 kados toins: it's fine with me :-) 09:56 toins kados, so do you think it's possible ? 09:56 kados toins: absolutely 09:56 kados toins: but we should check how it will work 09:56 toins ok 10:02 kados toins: actually, since you can work before the deadline it will be fine 10:04 toins kados, good 10:04 kados toins: so feel free to apply :-) 10:05 toins yeah ! 10:06 toins kados, what i need to do exactly ? 10:09 toins kados ? 10:09 dewey well, kados is helping us LibLime folk with something at the moment 10:09 kados toins: http://code.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=10442 10:09 kados toins: you have to submit a application 10:10 toins kados, so you prefer opencataloger than opensharetags ? 10:10 kados toins: opencataloger please :-) 10:10 toins ok 10:10 kados toins++ 10:11 toins kados, may i work with other friends ? 10:11 kados yes! 10:11 kados your friends can apply too! 10:11 toins gus, here is one of them 10:11 kados you can all get paid :-) 10:11 kados hi gus 10:11 toins hehe ... good ! 10:11 kados gus: you're a student too? 10:11 gus hi 10:11 dewey bonjour, gus 10:11 gus yes with toins 10:12 kados excellent 10:12 kados so toins and gus can apply separately do work on opencataloger 10:13 toins why separately ? 10:13 kados so that you can both get paid separately :-) 10:13 kados even though you will work on the same project 10:13 toins ahh... 10:14 kados yes 10:14 kados gus too :-) 10:15 gus yes ! 10:16 kados toins: do you remember sara? 10:16 kados toins: she will apply too 10:16 toins kados, yes 10:16 toins ok ! 10:16 kados toins: maybe she could help with opencataloger too 10:17 toins excellent 10:17 kados it will be her first programming project other than school projects 10:17 kados paul: hi :-) 10:17 kados toins: make sure to read carefully the GSoC specs and submit an application asap 10:17 toins kados, ok 10:17 kados toins: because the deadline may be cut short if many students apply 10:18 kados toins: this happened with the deadline for organizations 10:18 toins i read it tonight 10:18 kados toins: 2/3 were rejected 10:18 kados toins: so liblime is lucky to have been accepted! 10:18 toins yep ! 10:19 toins why liblime has been selected rather than other ? 10:20 paul kados : "I have been integrating the YUI libraries into Koha with the following result' 10:20 paul what are "YUI libraries" ? 10:20 paul (hovewer, it's really neat, I agree. 10:20 rch paul: Yahoo User Interface 10:20 paul just one note : "+ add adult" buttons are text buttons of course ? (except for the +) 10:21 paul otherwise it's untranslatable, and we have a problem 10:21 rch they have released all their UI code under OS license 10:22 kados paul: yes, they are fully text buttons 10:22 kados paul: css is used to style them to look like buttons 10:22 kados paul: and the + is a background image 10:23 kados paul: so fully translatable 10:23 paul YUI : ++ 10:23 paul why is prog not reliable for this screen 10:23 kados but the question is, should it be prog? 10:23 kados or shoudl it be 'liblime'? 10:23 paul what are the diffs for tmpl ? 10:23 paul between prog and this screenshot ? 10:25 kados there is some extra markup in that screenshot 10:25 kados for instance, the buttons are represented as: 10:25 kados <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span> 10:25 kados however, note that prog templates are quite 'dirty' too 10:25 kados at least the members section that I have been looking at this weekend 10:26 kados paul: look at the moremember and memberentry* tmpls for examples of very 'dirty' templates 10:27 paul what is dirty according to you for moremember ? 10:28 paul it seems very "regular" to me. 10:28 kados <p><label></label></p> 10:28 paul why is it a problem for you ? 10:29 paul its not valid html ? 10:29 kados it's not semantic 10:29 paul how would you write it ? 10:29 kados <p> means 'paragraph' 10:30 kados http://www.topxml.com/xhtml/xhtml_tag_label.asp 10:30 kados label is attached to a 'control' 10:30 kados so they are not appropriate for this context 10:31 paul shame on me. I thought it was valid as I wrote it. There are zillions of <p><label>...</label></p> in the templates 10:31 paul And most of them comes from me... 10:31 paul so, how would you write something like : 10:31 kados also 'legend' 10:31 paul surname: MYSURNAME 10:32 kados that's a list 10:32 paul name: NAME 10:32 kados so it should be: 10:32 kados <ul> 10:32 kados <li>surname : MYSURNAME</li> 10:32 kados <li>..</li> 10:32 kados </ul> 10:32 paul nope, that's not a list, as I wanted to have MYSURNAME & NAME vertically aligned. 10:32 kados that can be done with css 10:32 paul otherwise it's too hard to read. 10:33 kados can you say again what you want? 10:33 paul how ? with a <span> for "surname:" ? 10:33 paul surname: MYSURNAME 10:33 paul name: N AME 10:33 paul mmm.... M and N should be aligned vertically 10:34 kados ahh, ok 10:34 kados but not surname? 10:34 kados and name? 10:34 paul I just want 2 columns : one with the labels, one with the content. 10:34 paul the "label" being left or right aligned, I don't care. 10:35 kados to preserve semantics, the whole element should be a list element 10:35 kados but you could wrap the label in a <span> tag 10:35 kados which would allow a css designer to change it's position visually 10:36 paul http://o5.bureau.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl 10:36 paul Any word / Title / author are column 1 10:36 paul and the forms entries are column 2 10:36 kados right 10:36 paul <label> is correct in this case, because that's a form. 10:36 kados exactly 10:36 paul I wanted the same behaviour for display 10:37 paul screens 10:37 kados paul: it's possible that <table> is also legitimate in this instance 10:38 paul I don't think so. 10:38 kados paul: though should be avoided if possible as it's hard for screen readers, etc. 10:38 paul (but I may be wrong...) 10:38 kados owen is the expert in this 10:38 kados we can ask him the best way to acomplish it 10:39 kados also there are <legend> where there is no form 10:39 kados in moremember, etc. 10:39 paul arent's they legitimate when there is a <fieldset> ? 10:39 kados legend is specifically a caption for form elements associated with a fieldset 10:39 paul maybe a fieldset is invlid when there is no form... 10:39 kados only if there is also a form :-) 10:39 paul ok, my fault too then... 10:39 kados fieldset can be used anywhere 10:40 kados though IMO it's a useless tag 10:40 kados <div> is better 10:40 kados if you need special style, <div class="specialclass"> 10:40 paul if you let me know the best way to do this, I agree to parse all templates to fix the problems. 10:40 paul (/me + toins, of course ;-) ) 10:40 kados I have already fixed member.tmpl 10:41 kados and half-way for moremember.tmpl 10:41 kados paul: ok, I will talk with owen and file a bug 10:41 paul anyway, I think we must do anything needed to have only 1 set of templates. 10:42 paul I won't change my mind on this. 10:42 kados ok 10:42 kados I think it's best too 10:42 paul and as you & owen proved you're from far better designer than me, i'll follow your instructions. 10:43 paul one note : today, toins will work on a new default value for MARC editor. 10:43 kados like a plugin? 10:43 paul nope. 10:44 paul every subfield of each framework will be able to have a default value 10:44 kados ahh 10:44 kados cool 10:44 paul will be very useful in many circumstances, I wanted to write this since months... 10:45 kados paul: another question 10:45 kados in members templates 10:45 kados we have three 600+ line templates for memberentry 10:45 kados wait, 4 in fact 10:45 kados 2,400 template lines just to input a member 10:46 kados IMO it's a nightmare :-) 10:46 kados very hard to maintain 10:46 kados do you have ideas how to make it less redundent? 10:46 paul I may agree, but that's SANOP stuff, it was their 1st stuff, so maybe we could clean it progressively 10:47 paul imho, the worst part is not that it is long templates (even if I agree it's a shame) 10:47 paul it's that you need 3 clics and form submit to validate a member. 10:47 kados yep 10:47 kados but if you read the template 10:47 kados it's quite repetative 10:47 paul and it's even worst if you just want to modify the password : you'll have to submit the 3 forms anyway ! 10:48 kados paul: memberentry.tmpl in dev_week is 178 lines 10:48 kados paul: just to give some perspective 10:48 kados paul: I have an inclination to 'reject' the new members stuff based on this :-) 10:48 kados new memberentry is 20X longer :-) 10:49 paul I think you should list all things that could be better done, then we could set priorities... 10:49 paul Note that there are some/many new features that can explain some growth... 10:49 kados only 4 or so fields have been added 10:50 kados so we should have instead about 200 lines at most in memberentry IMO 10:50 kados especially in a 'prog' template 10:50 kados right 10:50 paul because if it works fine, it's less important that something that don't work. 10:51 paul and we know how many ressources we have at our disposal. 10:51 paul so, sometimes "better" is the biggest "good" ennemy 10:51 kados right 10:52 kados but working is relative 10:52 kados what I mean is 10:52 kados if I want to convert memberentry to YUI for instance 10:52 kados it will actually take less time if I re-write it first :-) 10:52 kados otherwise I will have to deal with 20X as much code 10:53 kados anyway 10:53 paul give the ball to SANOP who write it ;-) 10:53 kados paul: from our tests, acquisitions, authorities, and serials are broken in 3.0/head 10:54 kados paul: does san-op use these features? 10:54 paul authorities & serials yep 10:54 kados are you sure you've committed all code? 10:54 paul (although authorities only a little) 10:54 paul I ? in this matter, we should ask the question to SANOP. 10:54 paul but I think they did. 10:55 kados we want to check before we start filing bugs 10:55 paul what kind of error do you get ? 10:55 kados so there is no missunderstanding 10:55 kados it's not just 'an error' ... it's a suite of errors :-) 10:57 rch paul / hdl: have you seen this error with updating authorities... ? 10:57 rch [warn] Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] 10:57 rch 13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] Couldn't load attribute set gils.att [Too many open files] 10:57 rch 13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] bib1.att:5: Include of attset gils.att failed 10:58 rch 13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-Number) 10:58 rch 13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [log] error grs.xml <no file> 0 10:58 rch ? 10:58 paul the 2 first, no 10:58 paul The 3rd one, yes 10:58 paul Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-Number) 10:59 hdl Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] <- First time I come across this. 10:59 paul where is stored your authid in the authority ? 10:59 rch 001 10:59 paul and it's in the xml field for sure ? 10:59 paul and it's in the xml record for sure ? 11:00 hdl Is your authtypecode stored in 152$b ? 11:00 rch yes. 11:01 hdl which zebra version do you use ? 11:02 hdl rch : is there no other warnings before Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] ? 11:02 rch zebra 2.0.12 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [request] Init OK - ID:81/81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:1.116/2.1.54 11:03 btoumi hi all 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] function: 1 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] Waitaction: 2 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] Received DB Update 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] action 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] specialUpdate 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] database: authorities 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] enabling shadow spec=/zebra/rel_3_0/authorities/shadow:1G 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] cache_fname = /zebra/rel_3_0/authorities/shadow/cache 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] record 0 type XML 11:03 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] 314 bytes: 11:03 rch <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> 11:03 rch <record xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.loc.gov/MARC21/slim http://www.l ... 11:04 rch 10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [warn] Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] 11:04 rch hi btoumi 11:04 btoumi hi rch 11:05 btoumi kados u have some questions? 11:05 kados btoumi: hi :-) 11:05 kados btoumi: 1. memberentry in dev_week is 178 lines 11:05 kados btoumi: in head/3.0 it's 2,700 lines :-) 11:06 kados paul: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_dl.asp 11:06 kados paul: to answer our question about semantics before 11:06 kados paul: defines a definition list 11:07 btoumi kados: about tmpl? 11:07 kados btoumi: yep 11:08 kados paul: so we can use <dl> <dt>Name:</dt> <dd>Joshua Ferraro</dd></dt> ... </dl> 11:08 btoumi kados can u tell me the file name please? 11:08 kados btoumi: memberentry*.tmpl 11:09 kados btoumi: they are 600 lines a piece 11:09 kados btoumi: in dev_week/rel_2_2 less than 200 lines and only one file 11:11 btoumi in according with paul we made some change in template 11:13 btoumi before the template was hardcoded 11:13 btoumi koados what is the problem 11:14 btoumi kados what is the problem? 11:14 kados I will explain 11:14 kados 1. there are three steps to create a borrower 11:14 kados and in the template, the content for the borrower is repeated over and over 11:15 kados if you need to represent three steps, it could be done in css with only a single form 11:15 paul (and some javascript) 11:15 kados most libraries won't want three steps anyway 11:15 kados paul: yep 11:15 kados 2. there are three separate templates with three steps each 11:16 kados sorry ... s/three separate tempaltes/four separate templates/ 11:16 kados it means that if I need to update the memberentry templates I have to update 4 files 11:16 kados since all the fields are identical for all four 11:16 kados we only need one template IMO 11:17 kados ultimately, 2,700 lines of HTML are unmaintainiable 11:17 kados especially since in dev_week and rel_2_2 memberentry.tmpl is only 180 lines 11:18 btoumi_bis so what do we do ? 11:19 owen kados: you around? 11:20 kados owen: yup 11:20 kados owen: good timing, we're discussing templates 11:21 hpassini kados so what do we do ? 11:21 kados hpassini: do you mean 'how to fix'? 11:21 hpassini yes 11:22 kados ok: 11:22 kados 1. merge memberentry*.tmpl into one file 11:22 kados 2. only have one form in memberentry.tmpl for submitting 11:22 paul (I disagree with #1, I can argue why) 11:22 kados paul: ok, sure 11:22 kados paul: why? :-) 11:22 paul (finish, I will say later) 11:23 paul (I wanted to wait until you had finished to type <enter> but my keyboard is too sensitive it seems...) 11:23 kados hehe 11:24 kados #2 is critical 11:24 kados so instead of : 11:24 kados <step1> 11:24 kados <form><input></input>...</form 11:24 kados <step2> 11:24 kados <form><input>... 11:24 kados <step3> 11:25 kados <form>... 11:25 kados you can just have: 11:25 kados <form><input></input></form> :-) 11:26 hpassini I agree but actually we don't have enought time 11:26 kados hpassini: you don't have enough time to fix it you mean? 11:27 hpassini yes 11:29 owen Sorry, I'm coming in late to the conversation: Why are there three steps to add a borrower? 11:31 paul owen : yes, adding a borrower needs 3 steps : 11:31 paul - basic informations 11:31 hpassini it's to have all information without use scrollbar 11:31 paul - administrative informations 11:31 paul - library use informations 11:31 paul (roughly) 11:32 owen Have you gotten feedback from libraries that a single page entry form is not working for them? 11:47 hdl owen : ppl like to see all information (of one type) on one page to check it all at once with a glance. 11:47 kados yea, scrolling-- 11:47 hdl and not moving back and up with mouse. 11:47 kados I agree 11:50 hdl But Passing a parameter to the template could be a solution rather than having it on three pages. and having <TMPL_IF Name="step1"></TMPL_IF> 11:50 hdl Or we could have divs lake tabs in MARCeditors. 11:50 paul hdl : in fact, I think we should have 1 step only from software pov, but 3 steps from user pov 11:50 kados paul++ 11:51 paul thus, javascript and something like "tabs" in MARC editor 11:51 hdl pov : persistence of vision ? 11:51 paul point of view 11:52 hdl (hdl was wondering why pov-ray came into conversation :P ) 11:52 kados hehe 11:54 paul owen do you have a minut to speak of html 11:54 paul ? 11:54 owen Yes 11:55 paul in my prog templates, i've added many (zillions in fact) of <p><label>...</label>...</p> 11:55 paul I thought it was valid 11:55 paul kados: just told me it isn't as <label> are for form fields only 11:55 owen Yes, that was my understanding as well 11:56 paul how to replace them in detail.pl scripts to have a 2 columns display : 11:56 owen <label> is designed for use with <input>, since you can match up the id attribute 11:56 paul the left one with the description of the value 11:56 paul and the right one with the content. 11:56 paul like 11:56 paul surname : poulain 11:56 paul name : paul 11:57 paul both p being vertically aligned 11:57 paul kados pointed : http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_dl.asp 11:57 paul is that what i'm looking for ? 11:58 owen If you're not willing to use a table, I think that's the best option. I would argue that a table is not inappropriate, since you're presenting information which is structured as a grid 11:58 owen I don't see any accessibility issues with a table in this case 11:59 paul kados pointed the accessibility problem. 11:59 owen A screen reader used by a blind user would be able to handle the linearity of the table just fine (as I understand it) 11:59 paul anyway, I think we should choose 1 method and stick with it everywhere