Time Nick Message 00:29 kivilahtio Top of the evening #koha. I have started working on the ISO18626 ILL standard implementation to Koha some weeks ago and have been producing some technical documents regarding the Koha tech stack, ISO18626 transaction workflows etc. 00:29 kivilahtio I published them in the wiki: https://github.com/Hypernova-Oy/koha-plugin-iso18626 00:29 kivilahtio Maybe ashimema, Joubu, tcohen[m], dcook, magnuse, are slightly interested? 00:30 kivilahtio Also KodoKorkalo[m], nugged. 00:44 dcook kivilahtio: Thanks for the link. Is that all good to go? Also you mention a wiki? 00:45 kivilahtio dcook: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/ISO18626_RFC 00:45 kivilahtio How typical of me to share the wrong link :| 00:45 dcook Hehe all good 00:46 kivilahtio dcook: I am just setting up the foundation tech stack to build on. The data models are rather large so takes a bit of thought how to minimize repetitive code. 00:48 dcook It certainly looks big. I'll send it over to my director to take a look at since he's been doing iso18626 work too 00:48 dcook (mostly for projects other than Koha) 01:28 tuxayo kivilahtio++ 01:48 tuxayo kivilahtio: That looks impressive, does that need a lot of stuff to be submitted to Koha? How do you manage the differences between Koha-Suomi and upstream Koha in regards to this? 01:58 tuxayo > Does anyone know a ressource for testing EDI/EDIFACT stuff? For example I want to do «Find or create an item invoiced via an EDI INVOICE message» 01:58 tuxayo great, there is this :D t/edi_testfiles/ 01:59 tuxayo Not I need to find out how to use edi_cron.pl 02:13 kivilahtio tuxayo: It is all bundled into a Koha plugin. No upstream changes needed. Just REST API, Vue SPA, DB schema. i18n and all baked in the plugin. One thing which would be easy to upstream is porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript. I have most of the stuff from ERM already working via TypeScript. 02:13 tuxayo great :) 02:14 kivilahtio tuxayo: To be specific, "I have some of the stuff..." but solved the real technical challenges. 02:17 tuxayo > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript 02:17 tuxayo kivilahtio For this IIL plugin you had to port ERM JS code to TS? (I'm surely mixing up everything ^^" ) 02:28 dcook tuxayo: I was curious about that too. I don't understand how the ERM JS relates to this plugin at all... 02:53 kivilahtio dcook: tuxayo: the ERM-plugin introduces some good patterns, such as a central notifications bus and DataTable wrappers. store and router, etc utilities. forms and the API accessors. So reusing them, instead of reinventingthe wheel. 02:54 dcook kivilahtio: That's something I've been interested in, but I didn't see a way of re-using them? 02:55 dcook I kept thinking to re-use them they'd need to be in their own repo to be bundled? 02:55 dcook I've been thinking it would be great to have a number of core Vue components/features that could be included into Koha plugins... 02:55 kivilahtio dcook: I am speaking more of the patterns. Those patterns are the patterns the Koha devs see when they start wondering about Vue in Koha, so trying to follow those. Apart from the i18n which vue has it's own implementation which is dead easy to use. 02:56 dcook I'm not sure I follow. So you mean you're copying/pasting or..? 02:56 kivilahtio Also if/when ISO18626 is wanted in the Koha-core, following the patterns makes it easier to ease the plugin to the core. 02:57 kivilahtio dcook: copy/pasting yes, then porting to TypeScript. Maybe it would be just easier to write new everything, especially since some of the parts are rather obscure with no type definitions, but nothing terribly difficultto figure out, as TypeScript highlights all type issues and invalid invocations so it is easy to find where the refactoring is still lacking. 02:58 kivilahtio dcook: It is just so much easier to understand what is happening with the code with good type definitions. 02:58 kivilahtio dcook: and especially how everything is supposed to be used. 03:10 tuxayo kivilahtio: 03:10 tuxayo > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript 03:10 tuxayo **Maybe** that was deliberate to no add another (even not that big) thing to learn to get onboard on Vue stuff. At the expense of the benefits of TypeScript :( 03:10 tuxayo Recently there was a message warning about the lack of people knowing Vue to changes to Vue pages. 03:12 tuxayo So keeping plain old JS might be necessary. I don't know if that was a choice for foreseeing the current reason. 03:14 tuxayo "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages" 03:14 tuxayo That might be a great contribution opportunity for you kivilahtio ;) Even just reviewing code would help a lot, not full QA. Is that can make it easier to contribute to leave the UI testing for someone else. 03:19 kivilahtio <tuxayo> "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages" - You mean with the the Koha community? 03:19 tuxayo yes 03:23 kivilahtio tuxayo: Yes, Vue.js is a mouthful, and TypeScript too :) 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible. Now there was only one problem with the default vue project bootstrap scripts :D And I managed to get the production assets bundled how I wanted in an hour or so. 03:23 kivilahtio But with decent community documentation it is not difficult to set up the project scaffolding and having somebody to maintain it. After that it is very straightforward to focus on the value adding implementation details. 03:25 kivilahtio But it is a really nice experience to develop the GUI with all the dev goodies: code hot reload and state persistence in the Vue stores. It is so much more fun than it used to be 10 years ago. 03:28 dcook While that sounds good, I still don't know how a person would handle making real re-usable Vue components in terms of Koha :p 03:29 dcook Other than the community hosting the Javascript separately 03:29 dcook Although I guess I also haven't had a need to find a solution either... 03:29 tuxayo > 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible. 03:29 tuxayo Nice that is progressed a lot :D 03:30 tuxayo *it 03:30 kivilahtio dcook: /root/Koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/prog/js/vue/components 03:30 dcook That's not how my testing system is set up :p 03:30 dcook We could do koha-testing-docker's paths though 03:31 dcook I used to develop Koha plugins outside of koha-testing-docker, but these days I develop them inside it as well... so maybe that would work 03:31 kivilahtio dcook: Joubu already introduced reusable components. Like the Dialog. 03:31 dcook Only within the Koha project though 03:31 dcook I have been glad for him moving more stuff out of ERM though for sure 03:31 kivilahtio dcook: also the HTTP clients can be repurposed. 03:32 dcook I've been meaning to look more at those. I don't think I loved the way the HTTP clients were done.. 03:32 dcook I figure one of the biggest things is the DataTables 03:32 kivilahtio dcook: They work and are easily extendable. 03:32 dcook Being able to re-use that would be amazing 03:33 dcook My next Koha plugin I might have to look at this all again 03:33 dcook Most of my Vue work has been outside of Koha 03:33 kivilahtio dcook: Yes, it has this 1000 rows of legacy datatables.js from the Koha side. Big scary monster with no typing so impossible for compiler to tell if you have all the dependencies with you or not. 03:33 dcook datatables.js needs an update as well anyway hehe 03:34 kivilahtio dcook: it works :D 03:34 kivilahtio But it needs a pure Vue replacement to integrate better 03:34 dcook Agreed 03:35 dcook I actually quite like working with Vue. Once we've got it integrated well into Koha I think it'll make a lot of things much easier 03:36 kivilahtio dcook: yup. Vue is beautiful. If we got websockets working, we could implement all kinds of fun stuff, like a centralized event bus where we could see other librarians logging in to Koha and doing stuff. 03:36 dcook I wish... 03:36 kivilahtio dcook: while not terribly beneficial, I think the librarians might feel a sense of oneness with the tribe, when theyu see their friends doing stuff in Koha. 03:37 dcook It would be interesting to know if another librarian has opened the same record as you.. 03:37 dcook But I don't know how optimistic I am about architectural changes 03:37 kivilahtio well that could be implemented with the REST API pulling events from Koha every minute or so, but having SPA which reacts in real-time to backend events, such as ILL status changes, would be really nice. 03:37 dcook There's only a small handful of us who are interested in newer technologies I think 03:37 dcook So much inertia.. 03:38 dcook bug 31380 03:38 wahanui hmmm... bug 31380 is what I'm far more interested in but trying to give back a bit more 03:38 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=31380 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, dcook, Needs Signoff , Build Mojolicious controller for running Koha plugins 03:39 dcook This is still using Mojo::Server::PSGI for compatibility reasons but it offers a way forward with Mojolicious... 03:39 kivilahtio dcook: it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience. 03:39 dcook ^ 03:39 dcook And commercial alignments.. 03:39 kivilahtio exactly 03:39 dcook On that note, I need to focus on something else ;) 03:39 dcook But very interested in what you're saying 03:50 tuxayo kivilahtio «it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience.» 03:50 tuxayo Yes, for the case of Vue, having people review the patches refining the ERM and making Vue stuff more reusable for the rest of Koha is already hard. 03:53 kivilahtio dcook: interesting improvement you delivered. The plugins also need to deliver for the OPAC. 03:53 kivilahtio How about one would just use system() [TM] calls to start a separate mojolicious process from the plack.psgi :D 03:53 kivilahtio But if you take that route, why not just run Mojolicious in a separate process? 03:53 kivilahtio Wouldnt it be a bit easier? 03:53 kivilahtio I mean instead of this bug you are proposing, just ditch plack for Mojolicious alltogether and directly route to Mojolicious from Apaceh2 03:55 kivilahtio I don't understand why the legacy CGI and Mojolicious needed to be bundled together. Maybe it is easier to handle it with the koha-plack -helper. 03:57 kivilahtio dcook: "At the moment, Koha plugins run via Plack::App::CGIBin, which buffers responses and otherwise prevents plugins from fully leveraging the power of Plack and Mojolicious." 03:57 kivilahtio The plugins I write are SPA anyway and use the REST API, so maybe this doesn't help in that case? 03:58 kivilahtio dcook: speaking of plugins, I have this one: 03:58 kivilahtio https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=33503 03:58 huginn 04Bug 33503: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, ASSIGNED , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. 03:59 kivilahtio it was a nightmare to debug what was wrong with the OpenAPI2 spec in the plugin. Too me some 3 weeks to solve it and have a patch in bugzilla. 04:11 tuxayo kivilahtio++ 04:11 kivilahtio tuxayo: It was one of those "routine Koha-version upgrade moments" 04:12 tuxayo kivilahtio: you still want to complete the patch, right? Because the ticket status is "ASSIGNED" 04:14 kivilahtio tuxayo: well I changed that to Needs Signoff 04:15 tuxayo oh great, it was ready! Glad you brought it up, it would have stayed in limbo forever otherwise :o 04:16 kivilahtio tuxayo: It shouldnt have any side-effects 04:19 tuxayo kivilahtio: Any other patch that might be in the same situation? Anyway, for this one it needs a test plan to demonstrate that it does what is advertises to. Or at least to check for no regressions. Having the test plan understandable by some who doesn't know this area of Koha will help it to get tested. 04:19 tuxayo There are 131 need signoff patches ^^" so the clearness of the test plan helps to make them stand out. 04:19 tuxayo Minor QA feedback: commit message have to start with "Bug 33503: " no "Bug 33503 - " 04:19 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. 04:20 kivilahtio tuxayo: ../Koha/REST/Plugin/PluginRoutes.t 04:20 tuxayo "same situation" => ready to be switched to need signoff 04:21 tuxayo kivilahtio: great, if PluginRoutes.t is enough, then you can just add that in the commit message body. 04:21 kivilahtio tuxayo: okey dokey 04:21 kivilahtio tuxayo: You are correct, a test plan is something that must be included in the commit message 04:22 tuxayo tests are really great to make signoff a simple trivial formally 05:30 ashimema Morning 05:30 * dcook waves to ashimema 05:30 ashimema Lovely to see you around again kivilahtio 05:31 ashimema ILL, Pedro Amorim: is your man on that from the ptfs-e side these days. 05:31 ashimema We're very very keen on iso ill 05:31 ashimema Just working on far too many fronts all the time . But we were planning on working on it very soon 05:32 ashimema We need to flip core ILL on its head a bit first though we felt.. having multiple backends installed in parallel works but sucks right now. And most if our libraries have at least three backends if not more 05:32 ashimema End uswr experience is confusing 05:33 ashimema Hi dcook 05:33 wahanui Hi dcook are you around? 05:33 ashimema I'd love to see websockets and a hypnotoad runner for mojo 05:34 ashimema Really wish I had more time to work on these things... I'm always in a state of do just enough to keep the customers happy right now.. rather than being able to innovate and move those more interesting and future faxing projects forward 05:34 ashimema It's kinda sad 05:35 dcook I've been thinking a little about that lately actually... 05:35 dcook Like on one hand I want to innovate locally and prove that things can be done 05:35 dcook On the other hand, if I innovate too much, the community won't accept it... 05:36 ashimema It's really hard 05:36 ashimema I don't think it's a lack of interest from the community.. people are keen for innovation to move forward.. we're all just so darn time poor at the moment 😭 05:38 ashimema I should probably set myself some more personal time to play with these things. I found myself doing far too much Koha on personal time for a while so I made myself a rule to stop coding and spend more time with the family and friends. (though Koha friends count in my book, so I do lurk here an awful lot.. haha) 05:38 dcook Hehe 05:38 dcook Yeah I used to do the same 05:38 dcook Had to get back to the real world though 05:39 dcook Time and inertia... 05:39 dcook Koha has also reached a certain size where it's tough to re-architect anything 05:40 ashimema Totally 05:40 dcook Although in theory doing more things by API should help.. 05:40 ashimema Though I'd love to see more projects in that space 05:41 ashimema I keep hitting bugs where I'm like, yeah we really need this. But he'll I see like 10 steps before we can actually start in the end goal 05:41 ashimema Commented as such on yet another one yeaterday 05:41 dcook I hear that 05:42 ashimema The bugs that makes everything hookable.. I have a real love hate thing going on with that one 05:42 dcook Hehehehe 05:42 dcook I also hear that 05:42 dcook I can't see that really working 05:42 ashimema Part of me loves the idea, another part of me is scared, no petrified, by it 05:42 dcook ^ 05:42 dcook Of course, I don't let anyone add plugins anymore ^_^ 05:43 ashimema Our plugins system is way to wild west for my liking 05:43 dcook "phenomenal cosmic power itty bitty living space" 05:43 ashimema It's another area I'd really like more focus on 05:44 dcook It's a logical one too, since it's something we can all use to be more innovative 05:44 dcook Increasingly I try to do all my devs as plugins 05:45 dcook Well local devs 05:45 * dcook dreams of a day of having no local customizations... 05:46 ashimema I hear you 05:46 ashimema Though again I have a love hate with plugins in general too 05:46 ashimema I really like that Koha is all about sharing 05:47 dcook Mmm that's true too 05:47 ashimema And I feel plugins opens the door to a lot less sharing 05:47 ashimema Its why I'm keen to have a centralised plugin store so much 05:48 ashimema I really want much much more discoverability for plugins 05:48 dcook I do think that would be pretty cool 05:48 dcook Signed by their authors... 05:49 ashimema The search from Koha stuff is nice.. but it's still rather crude and basic.. you kinda have to know what your looking for still.. we don't publish enough metadata to make it really nice and searchable 05:49 ashimema Definitely . 05:49 ashimema Signing is right up there for me 05:50 ashimema I'd even like to see dual signatures.. one for the author and one for community so we could have two levels of plugins.. community recommended and vetted and then everything else 05:50 dcook Oh I like that... 05:51 ashimema At that point I could see us starting to pull Koha apart a bit and moving a lot of the current core code into much more maintainable modular plugins 05:51 ashimema That's where I'd really really like to see us going 05:51 dcook I was actually thinking about that just a few minutes ago 05:51 ashimema Core Koha is just far too big right now 05:51 dcook It's so so big 05:51 ashimema Pedro Amorim: is super keen on that approach tok 05:51 ashimema Too 05:52 dcook I'm curious how that would work with AuthZ and system preferences... 05:53 ashimema He has my support to do that.. but yeah, we have sooooo many customer projects on.. shoe horning this sort of stuff into those paid Devs is a fun management challenge.. well, my challenge really as his manager 05:53 ashimema Haha, yup 05:53 ashimema That's an area that also needs the overhaul 05:54 ashimema Our AuthZ system needs to be much more standards based and pluggable 05:55 ashimema I see plugins being able to define their own scopes and leverage existing scope's . That's where the community signing process would really come in.. checking that plugins lookup and adhere to the scopes they should 05:55 ashimema Etc 05:55 ashimema Folio kinda does all this.. though in a hugely over complicated way and much more locked down 05:56 ashimema Brb, need a shower 05:56 dcook Yeah I feel like I need a shower after talking about those things too.. 05:56 dcook :p 05:56 ashimema Loo 05:56 ashimema Lol 06:17 dcook On the plus side, customer projects must be good from a business point of view :) 06:32 Joubu reading the logs, and my conclusion is: if everybody is saying "lack of interest from the community", we may need to redefine who is "the community" :D 06:35 dcook You know... when you say it like that... 06:39 ashimema I wouldn't say it's lack of interest at all actually 06:39 ashimema I would say it's lack of time 06:39 Joubu lack of interest, lack of priority, lack of time, lack of focus at the same time, yes all of that 06:39 dcook Oh yeah we're talking lack of time. If there was lack of interest, that might be further back 06:39 ashimema I feel like all the companies like the idea of innovation, but lack the resources to lt devs 'go with it' at the moment.. they all have so many paying developments in the pipe that they're stuck on those full time. 06:40 Joubu but then what do we do? Keep saying it? Or trying to fix those problems? 06:40 Joubu like having a roadmap, spreading the load, helping each others, etc. 06:41 dcook I do like the sound of that ^ 06:41 Joubu ask your company to hire ;) 06:41 Joubu (again) 06:41 ashimema Joubu.. I clearly have.. our team has gone from one to 5 06:41 dcook <3 06:42 Joubu yes, I know, and good ones ;) 06:42 ashimema and that's awesome, but it's not as trivial as, 'just hire'.. you obviously have to make a case for it (which I managed).. but then it's a really time consuming process finding people and another time consuming process getting them on-boarded and up to speed 😜 06:42 ashimema We wen't through three rounds before we worked out what we should be looking for and how we should be advertising to get the one's we've got now. 06:42 dcook And with the community system, 1 company could have 50 people and it wouldn't be enough to get changes in, right? 06:43 ashimema I know ByWater are in a similar boat.. they've been struggling to find good devs for a while 06:43 ashimema good new devs 06:43 ashimema totally 06:43 ashimema but yeah.. I'd love to see more time on the fundamentals 06:43 dcook Definitely hard to find good new devs 06:43 ashimema and I've been advocating for a roadmap for literally a decade 06:44 dcook Which goes back to maybe what Joubu was saying about redefining "the community" 06:44 dcook Maybe we should start accepting that there really is a small core group 06:44 ashimema problem is.. roadmaps need to be malleable for what the paying customers are wanting at any given time. 06:44 dcook Also true.. 06:44 ashimema and when you slot that in with lots of companies and devs in all sorts of different places.. it's really really hard to get people to agree at all levels in the food chain which things to concentrate on when 06:44 dcook Although with this csrf stuff.. I think Joubu, me, and one other person could get a lot done 06:45 dcook Maybe we should change the food chain? 06:45 ashimema who gets to say "We are going to focus on X for Y months" and why did they get to make that decision over anyone else whose arguably just as important 06:45 Joubu Sharing my situation: I have time, but lack of motivation. Rebasing the things again and again is really frustrating. I have stopped developping like crazy and refactoring all the legacy code. So now I have only a couple in the queue, and focus on non-direct Koha things (pootle->weblate, screenshots for the manual, etc.). And wait for the stuffs to be pushed (or simply get feedback) to start new things. 06:45 dcook Although I suppose Koha has been burnt before by centralizing power.. 06:45 ashimema yeah 06:45 ashimema I get you Joubu 06:46 ashimema I'm keen for a few things.. I'd like more than one hackfest a year and I'd like to get those hackfests much more tightly focused on a deliverable or two 06:46 dcook ^ 06:46 ashimema I always find them really good, but really hard.. I never come out the other end with a final goal met 06:46 ashimema and that's hard when you have people above your head pushing for their agenda's.. 06:47 ashimema which I also get.. 06:47 ashimema but still.. it's a pain 06:47 ashimema I'm going to advocate that for the next hackfest my team attend 06:48 ashimema 3 targets maximum as a team and a push for focus beyond that team on those three targets.. get people onboard with a goal long before we arrive 06:48 ashimema I think if we can prove a concerted effort can yield results in that situation we stand more of a change of getting medium and long term community wide roadmaps in place 06:48 ashimema but before we've proved an output to the purse string holders, it aint going to happen.. 06:48 ashimema my two cents 06:49 ashimema and breath.... 06:49 dcook hehe 06:50 dcook Joubu: I was just thinking.. maybe part of it is communication. Sometimes I wait on things and I think maybe no one has even noticed them 06:50 ashimema that's definitely a thing 06:50 ashimema keep bugging me, I WILL get to them 06:50 dcook Yeah, I've said that before too. Definitely keep bugging me. 06:50 ashimema but there are LOTS of bugs.. picking which to look at is often hard 06:51 Joubu I have tried the communication, some years ago I was sending email to the list, to let people know what we (active core members) were doing and when we needed help 06:51 Joubu we didn't get help 06:51 dcook That does sound familiar... 06:51 Joubu less big things, less time to integrate them, focus at the same time 06:51 Joubu that's the only things we need 06:51 Joubu we don't even need more people 06:51 dcook focus at the same time is a key one I think for sure 06:51 Joubu "what's on in koha-devel" it was called 06:52 dcook Because in theory if you have 3 people united... you're almost unstoppable hehe 06:52 dcook author, test, QA 06:55 ashimema I find emails hard.. I am always behind on reading them and always have a backlog or long ones. 06:55 ashimema short snappy catching me on slack/irc is best to get my attention.. 06:56 ashimema that way I'll stick it in a note and action it within a few hours or days usually. 06:56 ashimema if it's in an email.. by the time I read it, often the need has already gone.. or the interest has wained 06:56 Joubu or.. team tools everybody use at work, like kanban, etc. but we "tried" that as well 06:56 Joubu email or irc are not working 06:58 Joubu but talking about "what's on in koha-devel", it was either blog posts or email. I don't have a blog so email was appropriate. 06:59 dcook I was actually just thinking Zoom 06:59 dcook Tough with timezones of course 06:59 dcook At Prosentient, we all work in the office, but I've been wondering how you'd manage a remote workforce.. and surely you'd need to have regular synchronous catchups... 06:59 Joubu the problem is not the tool :D 06:59 dcook Agreed 06:59 dcook I think it's being in sync 07:00 dcook Frequent contact, knowing what we're working on/caring about 07:00 dcook Of course, it's tough. I don't just work on Koha :/ 07:03 ashimema we have a zoom call every morning, whole company still at the moment, though that's starting to be a challenge 07:03 ashimema we discuss the weather and stuff for a few mins to start.. just to keep it light and make sure everyones awake and has that social interaction.. then we do a round table of what people are doing work wise, any challenges etc.. 07:04 dcook During lockdowns, that's we did as well 07:04 ashimema it's a big use of time.. like 1 hour a day.. but we've not managed to wean ourselves off it 07:04 ashimema we basically started this way and have carried on ever since as it's always worked.. 07:04 ashimema but yeah.. growth is making it harder 07:04 dcook I suppose over time you'll have to subdivide 07:04 ashimema we now also have team breakouts more which I find helpful 07:05 dcook ^ 07:05 ashimema and each day the morning meeting it followed by a topic meeting where we discuss Upgrades, Developments, Infrastructure, Support or Sales 07:05 ashimema oh.. and Projects 07:05 ashimema one per day on a bit of a rotation for some 07:06 dcook Now I'm feeling better about our meetings heh 07:06 ashimema the challenge is the level we communicate at in community.. the purse string holders often don't get involved 07:06 ashimema and at the end of the day, they're the one's with real power to give direction 07:06 ashimema I push hard for my team to have a certain amount of freedom with what they work on.. 07:07 ashimema but it's always hard.. and when dollar signs light up in peoples eyes it's very difficult to say. "But we were doing this thing and want to finish that first" 07:08 dcook It is hard :/ 07:08 Joubu you need to present it correctly: "we have to finish that first, or Koha will collapse in the next 2 weeks" 07:08 ashimema haha.. 07:08 ashimema I do 07:08 ashimema and it works to some extent 07:08 ashimema but your preaching to the converted here.. 07:09 dcook haha 07:09 ashimema we need InLibro to get onboard 07:09 ashimema we need biblibre to get on board 07:09 ashimema ByWater too to some extent 07:09 dcook I was wondering a bit about BibLibre's numbers 07:09 dcook According to the dashboard, I've got more contributions this month, and I'm a one man show... 07:09 dcook Mind you my contributions are little compared to their past ones.. 07:10 ashimema in my view.. biblibre are awesome for hackfest.. though often their devs keep themselves to themselves on work at hackfest.. 07:10 ashimema but the rest of the year I don't really hear or see much from them 07:10 ashimema Frido does a bit more again of course now.. but his timezone is challenging 07:10 Joubu And all the "I am a company with a lot of KOHA knowledge and I want to be on the support provider list" companies... 07:10 dcook ^ 07:10 ashimema they're still good guys.. but busy.. as we all are.. and don't really focus on Koha a lot 07:10 dcook Joubu: I think that's one of my pet peaves 07:10 dcook pet peeves* 07:10 ashimema ha, definitely Joubu 07:12 dcook Maybe I should make more days for just marking everything Failed QA 07:12 dcook No bugs - no problems 07:13 dcook Actually, I am trying to figure out some way of carving up my time better. It's hard because I'm dev and support.. 07:13 dcook Anyone can come along at any time... 07:14 ashimema yup 07:14 ashimema we're all dev and support here 07:14 ashimema our teams are loosely focused, but the expectation is you lend a hand whenever you can 07:14 cait don't ask about all my hats :) 07:14 dcook hehe 07:15 ashimema I will admit, I've been terrible for the roadmap this cycle.. I've barely even looked at it.. 07:15 dcook People ask me what I do for work sometimes and I find it so hard to explain 07:15 cait I think it's ok that not every company has a dev team - some might just run Koha and do that well and I'd be ok with that 07:15 cait but overall we need more resources focused on helping others work along 07:15 cait to resolve our bottleneckes 07:15 cait just contributing patches is not going to help us clear queues 07:15 ashimema two reasons.. one I've been focused on getting the team up to speed and super busy and two I was feeling burned out roadmap wise.. I tried for like 5 cycles to move roadmap projects on and failed and it killed my motivation to work that way 07:16 cait I didn't mean you or anyone specific 07:16 ashimema just submitting bug reports isn't helpful either 07:16 cait just that we are out of balance and it shows in the queues 07:16 ashimema I often see a bug report.. fix it and never hear from the reporter again 07:16 ashimema no feedback, no signoff, nothing 07:16 ashimema it's infuriating 07:17 ashimema especially as that's almost always on my personal time 07:17 dcook <3 07:17 cait I think I have been guilty of that too 07:17 cait but there is just SO MANY things that it#s hard to keep on top 07:17 cait impossible really 07:17 * magnuse is guilty too 07:17 ashimema that wasn't directed at you either cait 07:17 cait I was really annyoed at myself for knowing about a database bug that badly bit us for ... like years 07:17 cait but I never got around to fix it 07:17 cait and then we lost data 07:17 ashimema you do a lot already.. it's the drive by one's that get my goat 07:17 ashimema the expectation you'll fix things and they never bother to come back on anything 07:17 Joubu any companies making money with Koha can find 1 hour a month to sign off a bug using the sandbox, no excuses 07:18 Joubu if they all do that, NSO queue is < 10 07:18 magnuse but if you find a bug, isn't it better to report it than not to report it? 07:18 cait lately, the NSO is not the one that worries me 07:18 ashimema or.. to be listed as a support company you should have to pay into a pot to pay for some community QA or Devs 07:18 cait we are getting close to deadlines already and QA queue is way too ful 07:18 ashimema or prove you're contributing in some other way 07:18 ashimema but I always get push back on that idea 07:18 ashimema and I can see why 07:18 ashimema but still 07:18 cait it makes people unhappy if their stuff doesn't even get looked at after sitting there long (it makes me unhappy too) 07:18 cait not good for anyone's motivation 07:19 dcook Now that I've helped stir the pot, I'm going to go on my little holiday o/ 07:19 magnuse dcook++ 07:19 ashimema enjoy dcook 07:19 dcook haha 07:19 ashimema dcook++ 07:19 dcook Back more seriously on Oct 9 or so... 07:19 dcook ciao ciao 07:20 Joubu dcook: Enjoy! 07:20 ashimema I encourage my team to try and stay in the top 10 on the SO leaders board... if not top 5.. 07:21 ashimema I think next cycle I'd like to tentatively encourage them into the QA team and again set such a target using the leaderboard. 07:21 ashimema there's plenty of easy QA's out there they could start with 07:21 ashimema sorry cait 😜 07:21 ashimema talking team.. do we have any thoughts on who might be RM next cycle? 07:22 ashimema school run time.. brb 07:24 cait heh not me? :) 07:24 cait that's how it works right? the last to say it has to be it :) 07:28 Joubu not me 07:29 ashimema Wha.. 07:29 ashimema Lol 07:30 Joubu we are good, it will be dcook, he just left 07:30 ashimema There's no obvious candidates to me 07:30 ashimema Hehe 07:33 * magnuse has been thinking there could be a hackfest focused on plugins, both focusing on the internals for the core devs and "how to write a plugin" for everyone else 07:33 Joubu RM job is 50% of the work time, or it is not done properly (full review, consistent pushes, building and guiding the team with a roadmap, etc.) 07:38 ashimema I'd argue even more than 50% a lot of the time 07:38 ashimema That's the challenge. 07:38 ashimema As much as I can see good people.. they need company support 07:38 ashimema That's a good focus magnuse 07:38 ashimema Would make for a good hackfest 07:39 * magnuse thinks so too 07:40 * ashimema has a list of topics he 5hinks would really benefit from a week hack approach 07:42 ashimema The advent series was good in that regard 07:42 ashimema Time again, I'd love to see more Dev docs like that one 07:45 magnuse +1 07:48 ashimema It was good to be focused.. we'd need to start writing the post asap I reckon. 07:48 ashimema Any thoughts on a good topic? 07:51 magnuse for advent calendar articles? 07:51 magnuse not off the top of my head, but i can try and think about it 07:53 ashimema I'd love to bring it back 07:53 ashimema I look forward to the perl ones every year 07:54 ashimema They vary a bit, but generally I like them 07:54 ashimema I love their themed style too.. the elf themed north pole fun makes me giggle every single time.. haha 07:57 magnuse :-) 07:59 aude_c[m] Was it an advent calendar with a dev audience in mind? 08:01 Joubu https://koha-community.gitlab.io/KohaAdvent/ - yes, dev oriented 08:04 magnuse a calendar for librarians is perhaps not a bad idea either? 08:05 aude_c[m] That was kind of my question: who's your audience? What do you want them to get out of it? :D 08:07 aude_c[m] One could argue there are plenty of resources for librarians already... 08:09 magnuse true 08:09 magnuse an easy option could be to just gather 24 links to really good things that are already out there, perhaps 08:10 ashimema Yeah.. I liked the idea of a librarian focused one too 08:10 ashimema though I felt librarians were already better catered for with all the various vlogs and things we already have out there 08:10 ashimema devs were missing that 08:11 ashimema but I'm not against it.. just didn't have the time/contacts to orchestrate both 😜 08:12 * ashimema should have read that hole convo before replying 08:12 aude_c[m] I agree with Magnus - it would be easy to do and could highlight some lesser-known resources. 08:12 ashimema Yeah, that's certainly a great idea 08:12 aude_c[m] Depends what we / you want to achieve :) 08:13 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Reading back on the plugins talk from earlier, my next target on the dev documentation side is to attack the plugins pages on the Wiki and try and bring them up to date 08:13 ashimema may also be a good oportunity to highlight a lot of the work that goes on behind the scenes that people are unaware of 08:14 ashimema like all the volunteer time that goes into keeping Jenkins running, building packages, running the translation servers, etc, etc 08:14 ashimema none of that is really recognised 08:14 magnuse +1 08:14 aude_c[m] +1 08:25 ashimema Joubu still about? 08:25 ashimema matt.blenkinsop may need a pointer on selenium cleanup issues in Jenkins 08:25 Joubu ashimema: yes 08:26 magnuse gah, we have a koha 22.05.12 using elastic 7 for search. search works in both opac and staff, but some records are only searchable in staff, not in the opac. it is not bug 30141 or OpacHiddenItems. anyone else seen that? 08:26 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=30141 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , ElasticsearchCrossFields enabled returns no search results on OPAC 08:27 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: t/db_dependent/selenium/patrons_search.t failure on 22.11_D11? 08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Yes thats the one 08:27 Joubu if so, I fixed it yesterday 08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ah perfect, which bug? 08:27 Joubu (trying to remember the bug number) 08:27 ashimema awesome people 08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] I'll email Fridolin and backport it 08:27 ashimema as painful as Koha can be sometimes.. we do have a lovely community really.. thanks for caring Joubu 08:28 Joubu 27634 - but it was not the same failure actually! 08:28 Joubu but I looked at patrons_search.t as well IIRC 08:29 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] The error is a cleanup issue rather than one of the tests failing 08:30 Joubu the failure on jenkins is "Cannot wait more for jQuery to be active", it's not the cleanup 08:31 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: do you get the failure locally? I've tried yesterday on 23.05 and it was passing for me 08:31 ashimema arg 08:31 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] I'm rebooting KTD with selenium to test 08:34 Joubu the failure is consistent on jenkins. And both 22.11 and 23.05 are failing since Sept 8th. 08:36 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] 22.11 had an issue with ERM which I fixed yesterday 08:37 Joubu I meant, patrons_search.t is failing since https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_22.11_D11/249/ 08:37 Joubu #248 was green 08:37 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ah right ok, I'll see if I can replicate locally 08:38 Joubu I am running the whole test suite, replicating jenkins 08:39 Joubu will see how it goes 08:40 Joubu note that it's logged there already: bug 31199. But it's failing randomly on master, it seems consistent on 22.11 08:40 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=31199 normal, P5 - low, ---, chris, NEW , selenium/patrons_search.t is failing randomly 08:54 cait MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: I'd appreciate any dev documentation updates for the wiki! API or plugins would be both great 08:54 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: that's actually a random failure, on run #251 patrons_search.t is passing 08:55 krimsonkharne[m] morning #koha 08:55 Joubu 252, 253, 255, 256 as well 08:55 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] It passed for me locally just now 08:56 Joubu there is something going on when the server is slow to responde, which is hard to replicate locally 08:56 magnuse never mind my earlier problem, the records had 942$n = 1 08:56 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: so basically, the short answer is: it's not blocker for a release. Schedule another build and with a bit of luck it will be green 08:56 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] 256 was the cypress failure, I'll re-trigger a Jenkins run and see if it passes this time 08:56 Joubu heh ;) 08:57 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ok sounds good, thanks for looking at it! 08:57 krimsonkharne[m] hey, noob question, but can I find documentation for the qa script somewhere? 08:57 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: you can still log the failure on 31199, provide the job, run #, and node 08:58 Joubu krimsonkharne[m]: what kind of documentation do you want? The project is at https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools 08:58 ashimema https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools 08:58 ashimema the readme is pretty much it 08:58 ashimema lol 08:58 krimsonkharne[m] alright, thanks both 08:58 krimsonkharne[m] joubu++ ashimema++ 08:59 Joubu krimsonkharne[m]: are you looking for something specific? 08:59 krimsonkharne[m] Joubu: yeah 08:59 krimsonkharne[m] I have zero experience with writing my own perl scripts and wanted to try it out 08:59 ashimema he magic is, you don't need any of the setup if you're using ktd.. it's all there for you already 08:59 ashimema so you literally just call qa and that does all the magic for you 08:59 krimsonkharne[m] for bug 29324 08:59 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=29324 minor, P5 - low, ---, philip.orr, Failed QA , Some files still don't have the correct license statement 08:59 * ashimema should add --more-tests to the readme though 08:59 ashimema that's not documented there.. but is in the --help 09:00 krimsonkharne[m] the idea I had was to write a perl file to prepend copyright or license statements to all files missing them 09:00 krimsonkharne[m] would work fine but qa gives me a couple of fails, and as a noob non-dev I don't understand them... 09:00 Joubu don't take koha-qa.pl as an example of good practices 09:01 Joubu ok, forget what I just said then. 09:01 Joubu What is the failure? 09:01 wahanui well, the failure is due to the Docker_3 executor 09:01 krimsonkharne[m] file permissions: File must have the exec flag 09:02 ashimema chmod +x on the files it mentions is the resolution for that one 09:02 ashimema and commit it of course 09:02 ashimema file permissions 09:03 ashimema Joubu.. do you know what -d was ever for in the qa script? 09:03 ashimema it doesn't appear to do anything now 09:05 Joubu "added -d arg for smart-comments" 09:05 Joubu Date: Fri Aug 24 09:52:29 2012 +1200 09:05 Joubu since then we removed smart comments 09:06 Joubu so -d is useless and should be removed 09:06 ashimema okies 09:09 krimsonkharne[m] yep that fixed it ashimema! 09:09 krimsonkharne[m] ashimema++ 09:12 ashimema that's just basic linux file permissions stuff.. but if you don't know you don't know.. glad I could help 09:12 ashimema I just did a tiny update to the README to get it inline with current functionality 🙂 09:14 cait ashimema++ 09:16 ashimema are you happy with your fix for issue_75 Joubu 09:16 ashimema it looks solid to me.. and works in a quick test.. 09:16 ashimema can I merge it:? 09:16 ashimema qa script that is 09:19 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: my laptop is overwhelmed at the moment, loadavg is 25, and the test is failing :D 09:24 Joubu ashimema: not really happy, but it's the best solution I found 09:24 ashimema yeah.. I can't think of anything better off the top of my head 09:24 ashimema I reckon lets go with this and refine if we get inspired down the line 09:24 ashimema "it's only tooling" 09:24 ashimema I'd rather see it move than languish 😜 09:26 ashimema I was just considering a look at https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools/-/issues/63 09:27 ashimema contemplating whether we need a QohA::File::Specific::DBRev class for a new class of tests against our db_rev files 09:27 ashimema we already have a couple of special catches for them embedded inside File::Perl 09:28 ashimema for the INSERT IGNORE INTO test 10:05 Joubu ashimema: yes, we definitelly need a new class! 10:05 ashimema coolios 10:06 ashimema the minor thing holding me back was thinking we probably want both to run.. our standard Perl checks + the atomic update specific ones 10:06 ashimema I wasn't sure how to do that.. add the QohA::File::* twice.. once for Perl and once for Special::DBRev 10:06 ashimema or what 10:06 ashimema any preference? 10:06 ashimema do we even need to run the standard Perl tests on it 10:07 demetriv22[m] I'm seeking some advice on the implementation of the Koha library system. In particular, how does the system interact with local servers or Microsoft 365? Is there process documentation that can be share,please? 10:07 ashimema interact in what way demetriv22 10:07 ashimema Koha's is self contained and web based 10:07 ashimema but you can use API's to talk to it.. and you can use various Auth mechanisms and things 10:08 ashimema like LDAP, Shibboleth, SAML2, CAS et al 10:08 demetriv22[m] Hi, so can Koha be used in conjuction with M365 powerapps? 10:08 ashimema Azure and MS etc all happily link in those ways 10:08 ashimema I have no idea what a M365 powerapp is or what you want to do with it 10:09 Joubu ashimema: I think it will fail if you run the usual perl tests (at least critic) on the dbrevs, but something to confirmed! 10:09 Joubu you are not supposed to add a file twice, at least we don't do that so far 10:10 Joubu I would make DBRev inherit from File::Perl if you want to run tests from both classes 10:11 ashimema ah, good call! 10:11 ashimema why didn't I think of inheritance.. sometimes the brain is slow 10:11 demetriv22[m] So, I want to use this system as a means of sharing insights across my business. These insights are reports, PDFs, books, and journal papers. There are several groups that will need insights. 10:12 ashimema to me, that sounds like Koha is hugely overkill.. it's a fully fledged library management system. 10:13 ashimema it's not a 'plug and play app' for the M365 ecosystem. 10:13 ashimema but I could be wildly misunderstanding your use case 10:18 demetriv22[m] I thought that it might be too. However, I can't find something that's between the basic file sharing system and a more advanced platform. The issue we have is that there are lots of reports, hosted in different places, which last year took months to consolidate. As our area of work expands so does the number of reports. I want a central repository where uses can add and search for reports that may be of interest. I'd welcome your thoughts 10:18 demetriv22[m] here, thanks. 10:20 ashimema I kinda feel like an object repository might suit you better.. something like dspace.. though again I have no idea how that integrates with existing MS offerings 10:20 ashimema sorry I can't really be of much more help 10:48 demetriv22[m] Ok thanks. I'll look into it. 11:30 oleonard ashimema: Potential complication to the DataTables upgrade... I'm finding that the new and old options names are not playing nice together. I've posted to the DataTables forum to get more information. 11:31 oleonard I'd like to avoid having to update dozens of templates :( 11:33 Joubu we could script the renaming, I am sure it will be easy to find a link between old and new and it should not catch a lot of incorrect matches. 11:34 Joubu I mean, a list of the old<->new options' names 11:34 oleonard Joubu: I'm more concerned about the difficulty in moving such a big patch through testing 11:35 ashimema I'd love to see us make that move.. dropping all the old Hungarian style or whatever it was called 11:35 ashimema but.. perhaps not as part of this particular patch 11:37 oleonard The options are supposed to be backwards compatible, but I'm finding that with 1.13.x if you define a default in camelCase it overrides the Hungarian-style option on the page 11:41 cait I'd be happy to help testing 11:41 cait i think for a GUI change like this we could also recruit other people 11:42 oleonard I've been submitting so many patches lately with huge test plans... I'm going to wear out my welcome :D 11:45 cait nah 11:45 cait I don't see any danger there 11:47 * cait misses kidclamp 11:51 magnuse oleonard++ 11:59 ashimema meeting? 11:59 wahanui meeting is over :) 11:59 ashimema ho.. I made a :tea: about an hour ago and forgot to drink it.. lol 12:02 caroline the meeting is now right? 12:07 ashimema I thought so 12:08 thd I am waiting for moderator in jitsi 12:08 caroline same 12:08 thd tcohen are you present for the meeting? 12:08 magnuse https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_Meeting_27_September_2023 12:09 * ashimema pokes tcohen in slack 12:09 aude_c[m] Can't anyone be the moderator? 12:09 aude_c[m] That was my impression from your meeting agenda (https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_Meeting_27_September_2023) and I was interested because I have never used that function, haha 12:10 thd We had scheduled a meeting time two hours earlier on this occasion to avoid a conflict with the previously scheduled documentation meeting. 12:14 ashimema no response from him yet 12:17 thd Maybe still a little early to find tcohen ordinarily. 12:17 ashimema I'm going to carry on with my support calls 12:18 ashimema it's 9.15 in corboda 12:18 ashimema but I have a feeling he's just completely forgotten 12:18 caroline ok well, ping me if you need an update on Kohacon. So far nothing much has changed from the last time. Still trying to get in touch with perl people, mainly through nugged, but not much response 12:18 ashimema it's earlier for most of bywater 12:18 caroline I got to the office earlier too 12:19 caroline It's not super early (8am) but I usually get in at 9 12:20 thd Definitely early for much of the US. 12:20 ashimema oh no, sorry caroline 12:26 caroline no need to be sorry! 12:27 caroline (you can be sure I'll leave early lol) 12:39 tcohen[m] hola #koha o/ 12:39 tcohen[m] I had the wrong time for the meeting 12:39 tcohen[m] sorry for that 12:40 tcohen[m] #startmeeting Development Meeting 27 September 2023 12:40 huginn Meeting started Wed Sep 27 12:40:27 2023 UTC. The chair is tcohen[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 12:40 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 12:40 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'development_meeting_27_september_2023' 12:40 tcohen[m] #topic Introductions 12:41 tcohen[m] #info Tomas Cohen Arazi 12:43 caroline Sorry, I have another meeting at 9 12:43 caroline (in 20 minutes) 12:45 tcohen[m] #info No quorum for the dev meeting this time. Re-scheduling 12:45 tcohen[m] #endmeeting 12:45 huginn Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 12:45:13 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 12:45 huginn Minutes: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/development_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-12.40.html 12:45 huginn Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/development_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-12.40.txt 12:45 huginn Log: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/development_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-12.40.log.html 13:19 Joubu aude_c[m]: https://docs.weblate.org/en/weblate-5.0.2/api.html#categories - (yet another) example of "New in version x" 13:20 Joubu There is also, on the same page "Deprecated since version 2.6" 13:27 ashimema caroline 13:27 wahanui caroline is always referring to this page, actually to this one https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/ReStructuredText_-_Tips_and_Tricks for the heading marks 13:27 aude_c[m] Thanks! 13:28 caroline lol, I am always refering to that page actually 13:28 caroline what's up? 13:28 aude_c[m] 😁 13:28 ashimema do you understand what the heck the the onshelf holds preferences are meantt to do 13:29 caroline ugh, holds, the bane of my existence... which pref? or do you mean the rules? 13:29 aude_c[m] Joubu That's a really neat example 👍️ 13:30 ashimema must be a rule.. I can't find a pref 13:30 caroline oh, do you mean the if any available vs if none available? 13:30 aude_c[m] I really don't like the way the onshelf options in the circ rules are named (so confusing) 13:30 ashimema the options are confusing 13:30 caroline me either 13:30 aude_c[m] lol 13:31 ashimema 'Yes', 'If any unavailable' and 'If all unavailable' 13:31 ashimema what the heck do those mean? 13:31 caroline Ok, so yes is pretty self explanatory 13:31 ashimema Pedro Amorim: is doing his head in trying to understand 13:32 ashimema I'm baffled as to why there's no 'No' options 13:32 ashimema it's yes, yes or yes 13:32 caroline if any unavailable is if at least one item is unavailable, you can place on shelf holds (I think) 13:32 aude_c[m] But it's different types of yes! 13:32 aude_c[m] Yes: This will allow to place holds on items at all times. It doesn’t matter if they are available or checked out. 13:32 aude_c[m] If any unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as one or more items of the record are checked out. It doesn’t matter if there are still one or more items available on the shelf. 13:32 aude_c[m] If all unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as all items on the record are checked out that could fill the hold. This is especially useful for libraries that don’t offer the service of getting items placed on hold off the shelf for patrons. 13:32 caroline If all unavailable is basically no 13:33 ashimema why not call it No then! 13:33 ashimema lol 13:33 caroline don't ask me! lol 13:33 ashimema well.. we're basically finding is doesn't work 13:33 PedroAmorim[m] it was originally tho 13:33 PedroAmorim[m] https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/page.cgi?id=splinter.html&bug=15534&attachment=50824 13:33 PedroAmorim[m] check smart-rules.tt 13:34 caroline The only time I use if any unavailable is for libraries who don't allow onsehlf holds, but have like serials on the same record, so they want patrons to ba able to place holds on checked out issues 13:34 PedroAmorim[m] it then became no, if one unavailable, if all unavailable 13:34 PedroAmorim[m] and after that became what we have now 13:34 caroline so it's 'Yes', 'No, but maybe', and 'No' :) 13:35 ashimema this is all in regard to bug 34886 btw 13:35 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=34886 normal, P5 - low, ---, pedro.amorim, Signed Off , Regression in when hold button appears 13:35 ashimema we have multiple customers unhappy about it.. but can't for the life of us work out what is meant to be happening 13:36 ashimema I basically want to revert bug 30846 at this point 13:36 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=30846 normal, P5 - low, ---, hammat.wele, Pushed to oldstable , "If any unavailable" doesn't consider negative notforloan values as unavailable 13:36 Joubu PedroAmorim[m]: aren't you reverting 30846 with your second patch? 13:36 PedroAmorim[m] no 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] and, second patch from what bug? =D 13:37 Joubu talking in the current context 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] 34886 13:37 Joubu 34886 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] I'm rolling back Martin's first proposal 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] in my 2nd patch 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] not 30846 13:37 Joubu ok, ignore me then 13:37 Joubu staying away of this discussion :D 13:37 PedroAmorim[m] ignore you? that's easy! 13:38 PedroAmorim[m] no, please stay (really, we could use you here) 13:38 Joubu I don't want to! :) 13:38 Joubu holds!! 13:38 ashimema LOL 13:39 caroline I feel like those two bugs should fix something totally different, no? 13:39 Joubu and you are correct, I misread 30846 13:39 caroline One is based on the status, one is based on the patron being logged in or not? 13:39 ashimema 30846 caused the other 13:39 ashimema it looks like a tiny change, but in fact it's huge 13:40 caroline how come the status one affects the patron? 13:40 ashimema one line, but that one line completely changes what functions it's using.. so it's more like a few hundred line change 13:40 ashimema we never looked at patron before 13:40 ashimema the switch changes us from looking at status only to requiring patron so we can look at patron too 13:41 caroline I don't understand, is it because there is a circulation rule and the circ rule has a patron category? 13:42 caroline but even then, the negative not for loan should be considered unavailable but holdable no matter what the circ rule says 13:42 ashimema correct 13:42 ashimema that's what should have been getting checked.. 13:43 ashimema I don't think we should ever have switched to using a method that checks a lot more than that 13:44 caroline for that case 13:44 caroline but for other cases, you might need to check the patron, no? 13:45 caroline like if teachers can place onshelf holds, but not students 13:45 ashimema totally 13:45 ashimema but you can't check that until after login 13:46 caroline yes 13:46 ashimema our customers are angry that the hold button has disappeared in 90% of cases for them because their students aren't logged in yet.. 13:46 ashimema the possiblity for a hold needs to be obvious up front. 13:47 caroline I understand 13:47 PedroAmorim[m] Before 30846, the function being called from the opac page was Koha::CirculationRules->get_onshelfholds_policy which does not require a $patron to be defined in order to work. It checks $patron itself and has it's own fallback. 13:47 PedroAmorim[m] After 30846, the function now being called is IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest which is a function that requires $patron to be defined if On shelf holds allowed = "If all unavailable". 13:47 PedroAmorim[m] I think IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest has never even been used by a OPAC page before, thus it always had a $patron defined since you need to be authenticated in the staff UI but don't quote me on that 13:49 caroline we have had complaints in the other direction: patrons see the button, click on it, log in, and then are told they can't reserve, complain to the library, library complains to us :) 13:51 ashimema lol 13:52 aude_c[m] Just some advance warning that we're having a Documentation meeting starting on the hour. We'll be using Jitsi Meet for discussions but also attempting to use (!) this channel to record minutes. 13:52 Joubu The first "place hold" button when the patron is not logged in could be renamed like "check holdability", to remove the ambiguity 13:52 tcohen[m] I gree :-D 13:53 caroline interesting solution 13:53 aude_c[m] I can foresee a lot of users finding this annoying 😅 13:54 ashimema lol 13:54 caroline I think users will be annoyed either way, as we've seen, you get complaints for one behaviour and we get complaints for the exact reverse behaviour 13:57 caroline gotta move for the meeting bbl 13:58 aude_c[m] Any interested or curious individuals are welcome to join in the Koha Docs meeting starting in 2min (on Jitsi Meet)! :) Details of the meeting are at: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Documentation_meeting_27_September_2023 14:03 ashimema just about to head out for the school run.. will try to join once I'm back aude_c 14:03 aude_c[m] #startmeeting Documentation meeting 27 September 2023 14:03 huginn Meeting started Wed Sep 27 14:03:26 2023 UTC. The chair is aude_c[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:03 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:03 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_meeting_27_september_2023' 14:03 aude_c[m] #chair marie-luce 14:03 huginn Current chairs: aude_c[m] marie-luce 14:04 aude_c[m] #info Aude Charillon, PTFS Europe, UK 14:04 aude_c[m] #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro, Montreal, Canada 14:04 aude_c[m] #info Marie-Luce Laflamme, inLibro, Montreal, Canada 14:05 ml #info marie-luce inlibro, Montreal Canada 14:05 aude_c[m] #info David Liddle, central Germany 14:05 aude_c[m] #info Kelly McElligott, ByWater Solutions, Maine, USA 14:05 aude_c[m] #info Lucy Vaux-Harvey, PTFS Europe, UK 14:06 aude_c[m] #info Jonathan, Koha dev, Toulouse, France 14:06 ml #topic Review action points 14:07 aude_c[m] #info Rebecca Bradshaw, England, UK 14:09 aude_c[m] #info Aude to keep planning "How to document" workshops for the next few months, with Philip's help 14:09 aude_c[m] #topic What the team has been working on 14:12 aude_c[m] #info Jonathan has been working on moving Pootle to Weblate. Need a decisions about the one manual idea within one month 14:15 aude_c[m] #info Kelly has been working on the automated screenshots spreadsheet! 14:15 aude_c[m] #info Aude is working on updating Documentation's wiki pages 14:15 aude_c[m] #topic Automated screenshots 14:16 aude_c[m] #info Folder with spreadsheet and instructions https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z1SRT6p9GZhc45SVYwo4dQVjJ3dS48nA6d8OFRXOEsM/edit#gid=1050827337 14:16 aude_c[m] #info Correct link (previous one was just for spreadsheet) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Mmn5APHBpRxtqDHSOEJnaaJ5dn3ry3dc?usp=sharing 14:17 aude_c[m] #action "Keep going!" :D 14:23 aude_c[m] #info It's ok to pick and choose lines in the spreadsheet. Feel free to ask Caroline, Jonathan (or even Aude) for advice or if the guidelines need to be expanded. 14:26 ml #action we need more "random" images update to validate our automated screenshots script 14:26 aude_c[m] #topic Existing notices section of the manual 14:30 ml #link https://koha-community.org/manual/23.05/en/html/tools.html#existing-notices-and-slips 14:32 aude_c[m] #info idea is to expand the amount of information about each notice, and add anchors 14:33 ml #info how can we include information about the template tool kit in the manual 14:33 aude_c[m] #action Lucy and Aude to log a bug and start to show how it would look 14:34 aude_c[m] #info Also raises the question of what belongs in the Manual and what should be in the wiki - something raised by others recently. 14:35 aude_c[m] #action Aude to add what belongs to Manual // Wiki as agenda item to next meeting 14:36 ml #idea maybe reformating the info in the notices section and decide how much details should we keep in the manual. 14:37 aude_c[m] #topic Re-organising the manual 14:39 ml #link https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=32391 14:39 huginn 04Bug 32391: enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents 14:41 ashimema Not able to join the call as still on the school run.. but with notices I really think the tooling inside Koha needs to be improved.. we shouldn't be expecting people to learn TT as much as we are.. and it's not just TT but Koha internals.. the picket options should output TT and we should expose options using context.. like navigating from one object to another using relation accessors . 14:41 ashimema Sounds very technical, but a picker would make it obvious and easy 14:43 ml #idea How can we improve search within the manual? Is there a way to redirect to the exact section from the results page? 14:44 cait ashimema: i love the idea about navigating to the objects... I was pondering how to write better documentation, but the nested structure is kinda hard to explain? 14:44 ashimema Yup 14:44 cait now that you have that object... you can get another object from here... etc. 14:44 ashimema This has been on the roadmap for literally years 14:44 ashimema There's never been enough interest for me to be able to do it 14:46 aude_c[m] #action Aude to get back to David Nind to say yes 14:46 cait cryptic :) 14:46 cait yes to what? 14:46 aude_c[m] #action Aude to raise bugs about searching in the Manual 14:47 aude_c[m] very ;) 14:56 ml #action we all agreed to keep only one manual from 23.11 14:57 ml #topic Issues in the Pootle translation module 14:58 ml #info Sometime translations are not moved directly into the manual 15:01 ml #info Next meeting: 25 October 2023, 11:30 UTC 15:03 ml #endmeeting 15:03 aude_c[m] ml++ 15:03 ashimema darn.. I just got back 15:03 ashimema lol 15:04 aude_c[m] Thank you so much for your minuting! We talked A LOT! :D 15:04 oleonard documentation_team++ 15:05 aude_c[m] 😁 15:10 aude_c[m] #endmeeting 15:10 huginn Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 15:10:27 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 15:10 huginn Minutes: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/documentation_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-14.03.html 15:10 huginn Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/documentation_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-14.03.txt 15:10 huginn Log: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2023/documentation_meeting_27_september_2023.2023-09-27-14.03.log.html 15:10 aude_c[m] Argh, looks like the person starting the meeting has to end it - not the co-chair 15:11 aude_c[m] Another lesson learnt :D 15:11 ashimema co-chair can if they've been made it officially in meetbot I believe 15:12 ashimema yeah.. 15:12 ashimema you used full name instead of irc nick above 15:12 aude_c[m] oops 15:12 ashimema 'ml' wont have been linked to maria-luce 15:12 aude_c[m] cait It was yes to going ahead with Bug 32391 15:12 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=32391 enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents 15:12 ashimema all good.. it's all learning 15:13 ashimema ta 15:13 ashimema we'll certainly need to test the contextual linking carefully with that.. make sure links from Koha's pages still work as intended 15:14 aude_c[m] @later Tell davidnind Documentation team said "It looks nice" and "Yes, please go ahead" with bug 32391 (in today's meeting) 15:14 huginn aude_c[m]: The operation succeeded. 15:15 aude_c[m] ashimema You want to add that as a comment to the bug? 15:19 ashimema done 15:20 caroline ashimema, PedroAmorim[m] I saw you added more patches to the place hold button bug, so you found a solution? 15:22 PedroAmorim[m] kidclamp is giving it a go with an alternate patch. Meanwhile I made it depend on 34836 to not hold that one and separate things 15:27 cait aude_c[m]: i have't had time to look at the bug- but when reorganizing, please keep the links from koha help to the manual in mind 15:28 ashimema hahaha 15:28 ashimema that's what I commented 15:28 cait :) 15:36 aude_c[m] On the bug now :D 16:22 caroline I get what it means in context, but I find this sentence incredibly funny "Agreement user %s is missing a user" 16:56 kivilahtio ashimema: Thanks. I definitely needed more loving. 17:41 kivilahtio tuxayo: Bug 33503. I added a test plan now and incremented the test plan counter by one. Also changed the Koha plugin route injection subsystem to prefer the api_spec instead of api_routes, so we can have plugins support the legacy model and the new model. 17:41 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. 18:01 davidnind @later tell aude_c Thanks! (About the manual reorganisation). I will update what I did (a while ago now...), and do a merge request. 18:01 huginn davidnind: The operation succeeded. 18:02 davidnind kellym_++ Spreadsheet and information about screenshots 19:22 caroline anyone around using the ERM module? 19:25 caroline ill ask my question and maybe someone will see it later... 19:26 davidnind ashimema++ (Thanks for the comments on the Koha manual reorganisation document) 19:26 caroline Why is the Physical location under Licenses > Documents not populated by ERM_AGREEMENT_LICENSE_LOCATION while the physical location under Agreement > Licenses is? 19:27 caroline what is the difference between those two fields?