Time Nick Message 01:06 thd tcohen: After shopping I have a fix for Canasta specific bugs in LocalSettings.php. Commenting out $IP settings for the MediaWiki working directory near the top which Canasta defines elsewhere resolves path errors. A symlink to canasta-skins is also needed under wherever the Vector skin is loaded which by default in Canasta is config/settings . 04:39 fridolin yellow 06:58 alex_ Bonjour 06:58 wahanui hola, alex_ 07:33 fridolin salutations 10:29 oleonard @seen cait 10:29 huginn` oleonard: cait was last seen in #koha 4 days, 17 hours, 15 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <cait> bye #koha :) 11:31 tcohen hola #koha 12:07 tcohen anyone with ES experience for a quick question? 12:58 caroline hey all! I finally got the OK to go to Kohacon in person yay! Can I ask what hotel yall are staying at? 13:08 oleonard Hi caroline, that's great news! I'll be at the SpringHill Suites 13:57 thd tcohen: I assume you saw the message from last night that I had fixed Canasta specific errors in LocalSettings.php 13:58 thd I am uploading an updated file to your nextcloud now. 14:09 tcohen \o/ 14:09 tcohen I read it 14:09 tcohen the bouncer sends those to me heh 15:37 tcohen let's see how green Koha_Master gets :-D 17:40 tcohen back 18:01 fridolin yellow 18:44 tuxayo hi #koha :) 18:44 tuxayo tcohen in the meeting agenda, there is something a bit cryptic: 18:44 tuxayo «tcohen to add anything relevant to next meeting's agenda (or point out the bugs)» 18:46 tcohen LOL 19:14 fridolin XD 20:44 tuxayo meeting in 15min! 20:54 fridolin yey 20:55 tuxayo meeting in 5min 20:55 tuxayo rmaints? 20:55 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo 20:55 tuxayo qa_team? 20:55 wahanui qa_team is cait, marcelr, khall, kidclamp, kohaputti, lukeg, aleisha, fridolin, ashimema, tuxayo, nugged, petrova and Joubu 20:56 tuxayo and dcook 21:00 tuxayo #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 31 August 2022 21:00 huginn` Meeting started Wed Aug 31 21:00:28 2022 UTC. The chair is tuxayo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 21:00 huginn` Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 21:00 huginn` The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_31_august_2022' 21:00 tuxayo #topic Introductions 21:00 tuxayo #info Victor Grousset, Tuxayo Spa Pty, France 21:01 alexbuckley #info Alex Buckley, Catalyst IT, NZ 21:04 tuxayo davidnind , fridolin around? 21:04 fridolin yep 21:05 fridolin #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre, France 21:06 tuxayo let's chat while waiting for hopefully more people. 21:07 aleisha hello! 21:07 aleisha sorry was running late this morning 21:07 tuxayo hi! 21:07 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 21:07 tuxayo alexbuckley , aleisha at Catalyst, do you have tickets where librarians don't know why a hold is possible or not due to to much rules? 21:07 aleisha #info Aleisha Amohia, Catalyst IT, Wellington New Zealand 21:08 aleisha tuxayo: that specifically hasn't been raised, but occasionally we do have people talk about 'bugs' when it's just conflicting or confusing circulation rules 21:11 tuxayo *advertising music* aleisha I have a patchset for that! I'm rebasing bug 23732 and will finish the last code cleanup before submitting for testing ^^ 21:11 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23732 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, victor, Patch doesn't apply , Hold rules checker: show matched rules and syspref values to help understand why a hold is possible or not 21:11 tuxayo We are a decent number, let's start 21:11 aleisha nice :) anything to simplify the application of circ rules is a good idea 21:11 tuxayo #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_31_August_2022 Today's agenda 21:12 tuxayo aleisha: It's a diagnostic tool to show what is matched and what blocks 21:12 tuxayo #topic Announcements 21:12 tuxayo Anything to announce that doesn't fit better in the other topics? 21:12 aleisha nothing from me 21:13 tuxayo #topic Update from the Release manager (22.05) 21:13 tuxayo Some messages from Tomas: 21:13 tuxayo «Jenkins is back to green» 21:14 tuxayo «Many refactoring patches pushed, yay» 21:14 tuxayo team++ 21:14 tuxayo ~«recent focus on stabilizing things, and succeeded» 21:14 tuxayo tcohen++ 21:15 tuxayo «I'll be out next week» 21:15 tuxayo «so I won't probably push big things the next days» 21:15 tuxayo #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers 21:15 tuxayo rmaints? 21:15 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo 21:16 tuxayo All dependencies to bug 25439 are backported to 21.05.x so it should be compatible with ES 7, more on that latter in the agenda. 21:16 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=25439 critical, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , [Omnibus] Prepare Koha to ElasticSearch 7 - ES7 21:17 tuxayo #topic Updates from the QA team 21:17 tuxayo qa_team? 21:17 wahanui qa_team is, like, cait, marcelr, khall, kidclamp, kohaputti, lukeg, aleisha, fridolin, ashimema, tuxayo, nugged, petrova, Joubu and dcook 21:17 aleisha i think cait is not here to give an update 21:17 aleisha but i can take stuff from her latest email 21:18 tuxayo For me quite some time spend at the beginning the month on Joubu's refactorings. 21:18 aleisha #info lots of old bugs that need shifting 21:18 tuxayo aleisha: good idea, please do! 21:19 aleisha #info many of the team are on holiday (or will be soon) so community help to clear some old and bad bugs from the list would be much appreciated! 21:19 tuxayo As for Joubu (away for 2 months) large patches remaining I thing there is 21:19 tuxayo Bug 27421 21:19 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=27421 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, Failed QA , Porting tools/stage-marc-import.pl to BackgroundJob 21:19 tuxayo ↑ help needed to fix the issue 21:19 tuxayo And Bug 30982 21:19 fridolin tuxayo: 21.11 is compatible with ES7+6 or is ES7 mandatory ? 21:19 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=30982 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, Signed Off , Use the REST API for background job list view 21:20 tuxayo fridolin: both compatible 21:20 tuxayo aleisha: anything else? 21:20 fridolin ahhh great, we should update https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/System_requirements_and_recommendations 21:20 tuxayo fridolin: that's precisely a latter point in the meeting ^^ 21:21 tuxayo moving on then? 21:21 aleisha nothing else 21:21 tuxayo #topic Status of roadmap projects 21:22 tuxayo #link https://annuel.framapad.org/p/koha_22.11_roadmap Roadmap 21:22 fridolin sorry ^^7 21:22 tuxayo thd: any news about the wiki upgrades? 21:23 thd tcohen, ashimema, and I met yesterday about testing the wiki with Canasta MediaWiki Docker image on the Koha Docker infrastructure. 21:23 tuxayo fridolin: that's okay, you guessed well that we should do something now that all tickets are implemented 21:23 thd We missed the previous week when we did not have a formal enough appointment and my laptop broke 21:23 tuxayo ouch 21:24 tuxayo > Koha Docker infrastructure 21:24 tuxayo The portainer thing? 21:24 thd tcohen is working on modifying the Canasta Docker image to have a persistent database reference etc. 21:24 thd Portainer exactly 21:26 thd I fixed several bugs for how the Canasta Docker container moved a few things out of LocalSettings.php and broke for the Docker image where everything had worked without Docker. 21:26 tuxayo thd: Is the plan still to go live very soon? Like after Tomas comes back from next week leave. 21:26 thd tcohen had a bit of time this week but will be away next week. 21:26 thd Yes. 21:27 tuxayo Exiting! 21:27 tuxayo thd++ 21:27 tuxayo tcohen++ 21:27 tuxayo anything else to add on any project? 21:27 thd Docker is a slightly different target for which adjustments have been needed. 21:29 thd I am building some automated code for supporting the Docker image etc. but everything will work without it. 21:30 thd My broken laptop was no great tragedy. I had been given the laptop because it had a broken hinge and over time the broken pried the back of the laptop apart because the hinge was stronger than the plastic housing. The power connector even fell victim. 21:31 tuxayo :o 21:31 thd Look after your hinges. 21:32 tuxayo I have one that broke because I didn't often enough rescrewed it. It's now miraculously held by glue! 21:32 tuxayo #topic Actions from last meeting 21:32 tuxayo #action ashimema needs to remove an introduced warning on bug 28854 tests (or test for its existence) 21:33 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=28854 new feature, P5 - low, ---, martin.renvoize, RESOLVED FIXED, Add ability to create bundles of items for circulation 21:33 tuxayo « Task queue: marcelr willt take on bugs 27421 and 30718 » 21:33 tuxayo done 21:33 tuxayo marcelr++ 21:33 tuxayo « qa_team high priority for bugs 30462 and 30982 » 21:34 tuxayo One was mentioned earlier and the other might have been in the weekly QA email 21:34 tuxayo #action liliputech (deferred from previous meetingx2) discuss koha CI (docker image built + manual build) hosting on gitlab instance provided by BibLibre's partner AFI. 21:35 tuxayo @later tell liliputech any news about this? http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/2022-08-31#i_2447474 21:35 huginn` tuxayo: The operation succeeded. 21:35 tuxayo «Katrin to update LTS wiki page with current information from last dev meeting» 21:35 tuxayo We have any LTS wiki page? 21:35 tuxayo *an 21:35 tuxayo Ah, right https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/LTS_workflow_proposal 21:35 tuxayo #action Katrin to update LTS wiki page with current information from last dev meeting 21:35 tuxayo still todo 21:36 tuxayo #action tcohen will make a counter proposal about public_read_list() 21:36 tuxayo @later tell tcohen any news about this? http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/2022-08-31#i_2447483 21:36 huginn` tuxayo: The operation succeeded. 21:37 tuxayo #action ashimema will file a bug making Koha::Object::public_read_list throw an exception 21:37 tuxayo @later tell ashimema Any news about this? http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/2022-08-31#i_2447486 21:37 huginn` tuxayo: The operation succeeded. 21:37 aleisha can i add an action? 21:37 tuxayo Yes! 21:37 aleisha #action rename the master branch to 'main' 21:38 aleisha #action document the use of flatpickr in the koha community wiki 21:38 tuxayo Ah yes renaming_master++ 21:39 fridolin for my projects i prefer 'trunk' 21:39 tuxayo flatpickr: there is precisely a point about that in "Review of coding guidelines" :D 21:39 tuxayo #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...) 21:39 tuxayo Renaming master 21:40 tuxayo main, trunk, dev, develop, whatever works best 21:40 fridolin since there are branches ... 21:40 alexbuckley I love Bug 23732 tuxayo, sorry hexchat disconnected so couldn't reply sooner! 21:40 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23732 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, victor, Patch doesn't apply , Hold rules checker: show matched rules and syspref values to help understand why a hold is possible or not 21:40 fridolin and cherries to pick ^^ 21:40 tuxayo :D 21:41 alexbuckley I have a query about a bug report: I wrote to the dev mailing list about Bug 25090 (Moderate OPAC self registrations before a patron account is created) and had some very useful responses. I was wondering if anyone here had thoughts/opinions on how it should be implemented and if it is a feature you're in favour of? 21:41 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=25090 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, alexbuckley, ASSIGNED , Moderate OPAC self registrations before a patron account is created 21:41 tuxayo alexbuckley: ok, let's see that on next topic 21:41 alexbuckley sounds good! 21:42 tuxayo main is the most often used alternative to master. Trunk indeed fits the theme of trees ^^ 21:42 tuxayo Anyone have experience about using main? 21:42 tuxayo I recall some phrase usage got confusing but I can't find it :( 21:43 aleisha we use main internally at catalyst, it was an easy switch for us! 21:43 tuxayo main looks too vague but I can't make a strong case 21:43 tuxayo aleisha: ah, cool! 21:43 aleisha i understand the poetry of trunk with branches :) but it might be a bit too abstract? 21:44 aleisha we should think about the intention of the branch, and name it according to that 21:44 tuxayo Trunk still looks less abstract than main for a branch. 21:44 tuxayo So no confusion with main in the daily usage? 21:48 alexbuckley tuxayo, no we haven't had any confusion switching to using main, it was a smooth change :) 21:48 tuxayo great :D 21:48 tuxayo So no reserves anymore from me about main ^^ 21:49 tuxayo How should be proceed? Have a poll for the name on each meeting slot? Have a poll for the name in the koha-devel list? 21:49 thd main is the latest convention 21:50 tuxayo indeed 21:51 tuxayo *we proceed 21:52 thd Underlying utilities accept main and importantly will accept previous conventions indefinitely so that old code does not break. 21:52 tuxayo Oh, so there people using tool that work with only either master or main? 21:53 tuxayo *there are 21:56 thd The main branch could be named anything but 'main' now has the reserved special meaning in some utilities. 21:58 tuxayo Ok so we still have the choice IIUC 21:59 tuxayo Who to take the task to propose the change in the mailing list? (or another preferred strategy) 22:00 thd There are many people not here presently very much more expert than I about code repository usage. I pay attention to the language I see particularly when I have some problem. 22:02 tuxayo #action tuxayo propose change from master branch in the other meeting slot (EU-AM) 22:02 thd The question should be put to experts on koha-devel and not popular opinion on koha-list where people may not understand what might break with some choice. 22:02 tuxayo In koha-devel indeed 22:02 tuxayo alexbuckley: you had something earlier 22:02 alexbuckley yep! 22:03 tuxayo «query about a bug report: I wrote to the dev mailing list about Bug 25090 (Moderate OPAC self registrations before a patron account is created) and had some very useful responses. I was wondering if anyone here had thoughts/opinions on how it should be implemented and if it is a feature you're in favour of?» 22:03 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=25090 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, alexbuckley, ASSIGNED , Moderate OPAC self registrations before a patron account is created 22:05 tuxayo alexbuckley: So PatronSelfRegistrationVerifyByEmail would not send the link to the patron but to a librarian to aprove? 22:05 tuxayo Then the email address of the patron won't be verified right? 22:06 tuxayo Can that be a problem? 22:06 tuxayo The advantage of the proposal is that it looks simple to implement 22:07 alexbuckley that would be a problem for sure. I was thinking a workaround could be if PatronSelfRegistrationVerifyByEmail is enabled a librarian still sees a notification on the staff client home page to moderate. if they approve the registration then an email is sent to the patron to verify their email address 22:07 thd The issue seems to mask a more complex issue of the need for granular access controls to various resources which may be accessed via the OPAC. 22:07 tuxayo alexbuckley: ah yes it could work! 22:08 tuxayo thd: «more complex issue of the need for granular access controls to various resources which may be accessed via the OPAC.» 22:08 tuxayo How much is there a need for that? Hopefully we can get away with simple solutions like the above one 22:09 tuxayo Anyone else has feedback for Alex? 22:09 thd The proposed solution is certainly better than not having a solution which would require more work. 22:09 thd An improvement for the issue of access control does not conflict with the proposed solution. 22:10 tuxayo indeed 22:10 alexbuckley yeah :) 22:10 tuxayo > not having a solution which would require more work. 22:10 tuxayo That's the less work actually (nothing!) but it leaves the door open for abuse. 22:11 tuxayo maybe I missunderstood 22:11 thd The proposed solution includes a nothing option so status quo can be maintained where desired. 22:12 alexbuckley yeah I thought that would be very important to add 22:12 tuxayo Ah olk 22:12 tuxayo *ok 22:12 alexbuckley it's basically giving libraries the option of moderating new accounts, like they can with patron change requests of existing accounts 22:13 alexbuckley nice thanks all, I will continue thinking/working on this feature as proposed and we can look at access controls in a separate patch perhaps :) 22:14 tuxayo And likely you will need to maintain the patron email verification. 22:14 tuxayo moving on 22:14 alexbuckley exactly! 22:14 tuxayo Are we supporting MySQL? (either 5.7 or 8.0) - CI only tests MySQL 8 on Master. 22:15 tuxayo If the CI on main/main checks it then it should work. But should it be advertised and tested on the stable branches? 22:16 tuxayo Or is it just so we don't introduce MariaDBisms and there is no need to support MySQL? 22:17 tuxayo fridolin: heard about that when you were RM? 22:17 tuxayo aleisha: alexbuckley: any customer using MySQL? 22:18 fridolin tuxayo: mmm sorry nope 22:18 * thd has long thought that we should not be introducing MySQLisms of any sort but database agnostic is too much work hence the problem with the wiki database choice for what was only a testing instance at the time. 22:19 fridolin we at biblibre are sticked to MariaDB so we are not really aware of that 22:19 alexbuckley tuxayo, we tend to use mariadb for I think all our clients 22:20 tuxayo thd: Once the ORM is everywhere shouldn't we be almost database agnostic without effort? 22:20 tuxayo We might still have handcrafted queries in some places, I don't know 22:21 * fridolin AFK 22:21 tuxayo ok, I'll asking what should we do 22:21 thd Almost everyone uses MariaDB. If something would break on MariaDB we should certainly know but that would more likely be caught elsewhere before Koha. 22:22 tuxayo #action tuxayo defer «Are we supporting MySQL? (either 5.7 or 8.0) - CI only tests MySQL 8 on main/master.» 22:23 tuxayo Can we claim ES7 support now? And switch default version for KTD to 7. 22:23 thd The issue may be more of an issue about whether everything can be backported to whatever is being supported for LTS whether MySQL or MariaDB. 22:23 tuxayo Omnibus dependencies are done. bugg 25439 22:23 tuxayo *bug 25439 22:23 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=25439 critical, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , [Omnibus] Prepare Koha to ElasticSearch 7 - ES7 22:24 tuxayo thd: We do not commit to support unsupported version of the DBMS IIUC. So someone using LTS will have to keep an up to date OS or just the DBMS 22:25 tuxayo aleisha: alexbuckley : are you using ES in production? 22:25 tuxayo shoots, fridolin is AFK 22:25 alexbuckley we are for at least 2 clients, they are loving it! 22:26 tuxayo Great! ES 6 I guess 22:26 alexbuckley hopefully shift some over to ES soon :) 22:27 alexbuckley yep ES 6 22:28 tuxayo So until now, if there as security vulnerability in ES, like log4J, ES 6 would be unpatched since it's EOL. So we had this Damocles sword over our head. But not anymore it seems. 22:29 alexbuckley ahh I see 22:29 tuxayo There are no more known incompatibilities with ES 7. So should be advertise the support? 22:30 alexbuckley that sounds good from my perspective 22:31 tuxayo Ok, I'll ask around before changing that 22:31 tuxayo #action tuxayo defer «Can we claim ES7 support now?» 22:31 alexbuckley tuxayo++ 22:32 tuxayo alexbuckley: Also, the latest versions of ES 7 and all of ES 8 aren't libre anymore did you heard about that? (not libre according to Debian, Fedora and the Open Source Initiative) 22:32 thd At some point, ES 8 license change may be an issue even if the company most backing the OpenSearch fork is not your friend. 22:32 tuxayo And heard about OpenSearch, the fork made mainly by Amazon. 22:33 alexbuckley I had not heard about that, so thanks for that tuxayo 22:33 alexbuckley good to know 22:33 tuxayo Do you have plans to stay on a libre search engine? 22:33 tuxayo Indeed, it was a quite dramatic change from ElasticSearch 22:34 tuxayo thd: yes, it really sucks that it's almost only Amazon that is behind the libre fork... 22:34 alexbuckley hmm at this stage I'm not sure, we'll need a team discussion here to decide the next steps 22:35 tuxayo Indeed if you just learned about the thing 22:35 tuxayo Definitly worth having that in the agenda 22:35 alexbuckley yeah! 22:35 tuxayo OpenSearch support is on the way 22:35 tuxayo Most work has been done to have it usable on KTD and the CI 22:36 tuxayo So we will see if our tests pass and if basic usage work 22:36 tuxayo It should, since OpenSearch 1.x is a drop in replacement for ES 7 22:37 tuxayo Since some time there is OpenSearch 2.x so the project is getting mature. 22:37 tuxayo Moving on 22:37 tuxayo #topic Review of coding guidelines 22:37 tuxayo « SQL8 of our coding guidelines state that SQL should not be in .pl, but should be in the module in C4 or Koha. This would mean that SQL in the Koha namespace is allowed and there is no mention of DBIC in the coding guidelines right now. » 22:37 thd Amazon services have been outcompeting many companies for commercial business using cross subsidies for online computing services but the better way for business may the NextCloud libre way and just forgo the business which was never the core business which Amazon has captured. 22:37 aleisha #info using and configuring flatpickr needs to be documented 22:38 tuxayo That's the next point 22:38 tuxayo «This would mean that SQL in the Koha namespace is allowed and there is no mention of DBIC in the coding guidelines right now.» 22:38 tuxayo So it's about updating the guideline to allow SQL in DBIC schema files? 22:39 tuxayo (The generated clases for the ORM that have a non generated part where we can put custom queries) 22:41 tuxayo I'll ask in the other meeting slot. 22:41 tuxayo #action defer coding guideline «SQL8 of our coding guidelines state that SQL should not be in .pl, but should be in the module in C4 or Koha. This would mean that SQL in the Koha namespace is allowed and there is no mention of DBIC in the coding guidelines right now.» 22:41 tuxayo #action tuxayo defer coding guideline «SQL8 of our coding guidelines state that SQL should not be in .pl, but should be in the module in C4 or Koha. This would mean that SQL in the Koha namespace is allowed and there is no mention of DBIC in the coding guidelines right now.» 22:41 tuxayo now for «Update guidelines with the replacement of jQueryUI Datepicker with flatpickr» 22:42 aleisha ah sorry thanks tuxayo :) 22:42 tuxayo aleisha: so it's just about replacing the mention of jQueryUI Datepicker and flatpickr? 22:42 tuxayo It's as simple as that? 22:42 aleisha yes making sure the coding guidelines reflect how to implement the flatpickr 22:42 aleisha its very slightly different to using datepicker 22:43 aleisha i had to learn how to implement it by looking at other cases in the code 22:43 tuxayo Ah ok, so just a search and replace in the coding guidelines isn't enough ^^" 22:43 thd Yay but neither works with lynx :( 22:44 tuxayo aleisha: If you had to recently learn about this, are you up to draft how the guidelines should be updated? 22:45 aleisha hmmm i dont think id be comfortable doing that because im not sure if what ive figured out is 'best practice'! 22:45 aleisha whoever first implemented flatpickr would be better placed for that 22:45 tuxayo It would of course be reread before added to the wiki page 22:46 tuxayo thd: If someone has the time to make and test patches to improve command line browser support, I guess they could be merged if that doesn't add complexity. 22:47 tuxayo aleisha: What is the patch that introduced flatpickr? 22:47 tuxayo To find who to reach for documenting the usage 22:47 aleisha im not sure i'd have to search for it 22:48 aleisha i'll see if i can find 22:48 tuxayo can't find it 22:48 thd console browsing is dying with all the JavaScript and screen scraping is more difficult :( 22:48 aleisha bug 29239 22:48 huginn` Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=29239 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , [OMNIBUS] Replace jQueryUI's timepicker with flatpickr 22:49 tuxayo aleisha++ 22:50 tuxayo I'll call for people who know about flatpickr usage 22:51 tuxayo #action tuxayo defer QA guidelines: «Update guidelines with the replacement of jQueryUI Datepicker with flatpickr - introduced in bug 29239» 22:51 aleisha thanks tuxayo ! 22:51 tuxayo #topic Set time of next meeting 22:52 tuxayo Next meeting in the time slot, same time the 29th? 22:52 tuxayo *this time slot 22:53 tuxayo #info Next meeting: 14 September 2022, 14 UTC 22:53 tuxayo This if for EU-Americas timeslot 22:54 tuxayo And for Oceania-Americas: 22:54 tuxayo #info Next Oceania-Americas meeting: 29 September 2022, 21 UTC 22:54 tuxayo #endmeeting 22:54 huginn` Meeting ended Wed Aug 31 22:54:30 2022 UTC. 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(v 0.1.4) 22:54 huginn` Minutes: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2022/development_irc_meeting_31_august_2022.2022-08-31-21.00.html 22:54 huginn` Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-community.org/2022/development_irc_meeting_31_august_2022.2022-08-31-21.00.txt 22:54 huginn` Log: https://meetings.koha-community.org/2022/development_irc_meeting_31_august_2022.2022-08-31-21.00.log.html 22:54 aleisha tuxayo++ 22:54 tuxayo Thanks all for the attendance with the heavy agenda ^^ 22:55 alexbuckley tuxayo++ thank you! 22:55 aleisha thanks! 22:56 tuxayo thd: Indeed, we introduce stuff that degrade support and few people/no one have the time to test and submit patches to improve/stabilize support 22:59 thd The world in general has too much unnecessary JavaScript such that netbook level specifications are inadequate for basic use web use often for no good reason or because the ad server is enhanced by JavaScript. 23:01 aleisha yes it is interesting that we have many pages on the staff interface dependent on JS. we used to have a guideline that the OPAC must always be fully operable with JS disabled - is that still true? 23:01 thd I have never succeeded at building browsh which should at least help with console browser support of JavaScript. 23:01 tuxayo "too much unnecessary JavaScript" In our case, a datepicker is okay isn't it? 23:01 tuxayo "the ad server is enhanced by JavaScript" ? 23:01 thd People can always type in a date. 23:02 aleisha it's ok but i agree it isn't necessary, if there is a hint that shows the intended format then that works too 23:02 aleisha it's a helper but it isn't necessary 23:02 thd JavaScript helps with tracking behaviour etc. for serving ads. 23:03 tuxayo «we used to have a guideline that the OPAC must always be fully operable with JS disabled - is that still true?» 23:03 tuxayo If we don't have the guideline, I guess it isn't any more. 23:03 tuxayo Otherwise we can't use the API in the UI 23:04 tuxayo That's okay use of the JavaScript isn't it? 23:04 tuxayo browsh, note the name just in case, thanks for the reference thd 23:05 thd Date pickers were not always JavaScript but they may all be now. 23:06 aleisha i have to head off now, bye all! 23:06 tuxayo «People can always type in a date.» 23:06 tuxayo Even with a hint, that doesn't look reliable enough. Maybe I'm too pesimist 23:06 thd browsh is a console based version of the Mozilla browser but it tends to segfault at build time so I have yet to have access to a working version. 23:08 tuxayo «JavaScript helps with tracking behaviour etc. for serving ads.» 23:08 tuxayo I see. Ads should be blocked, it's malware for humans, exploiting our vulnerabilities. It shouldn't be tolerated and other ways to revenue should be tried (and accepting to fail as a business if they don't work) 23:09 tuxayo > Date pickers were not always JavaScript 23:09 tuxayo How did they work? :o 23:09 thd I work with some people who have very low vision and are nearly blind. The high contrast black and white view of many websites from big companies is unusable. 23:10 tuxayo I would have though high contrast black and white was the best ^^" 23:13 thd At one time more code was once server side but was much less of a bandwidth burden than sending large JavaScript libraries. Flatpickr is an improvement for being a lightweight calendar implementation. Generating dates and times has historically been a major consumption of CPU time with heavy Perl libraries which we replaced. 23:29 thd High contrast black and white is great in a console browser such as lynx but forcing black and white for the disabled on Firefox or Chrome can make forms display black on black or giant click through overlays of all white or black with no obvious way to for elderly disabled people to pass beyond them. 23:33 thd Web browser updates from a few months ago have broken accessibility for all black and white forms in Firefox, consequently I had to disable Firefox updates for the nearly blind elderly people I know. 23:42 tuxayo > Generating dates and times has historically been a major consumption of CPU time with heavy Perl libraries which we replaced. 23:42 tuxayo Really? Converting an ISO date to a MM/DD/YYYY format what CPU heavy? 23:42 tuxayo *was 23:43 tuxayo > make forms display black on black 23:43 tuxayo The background of the <input> field would be black on black, is that what you mean? 23:44 thd Automated profiling at one time showed the Date::Time or whatever module it was that Koha had been using regularly took more CPU time than anything else. 23:45 thd Yes black foreground on a black background is a real usability problem as is white on white. 23:48 thd Form functionality seems to be an untested aspect of the super high contrast themes with only black and white. Poorly maintained extensions are the only thing which had kept forms working but browser updates break extensions. 23:50 thd Try and avoid the combination of glaucoma and macular degeneration. Have good genes and wear sunglasses to protect your eyes.