Time Nick Message 23:03 wizzyrea heh 22:41 kidclamp goodnight all 22:39 kidclamp I was gonna suggest it as a dashboard add-on - most (un)popular bugs 22:38 kidclamp cait even 22:38 kidclamp night cairt 22:37 cait night all :) 22:37 kidclamp would be nice to say 'hey 20 people are looking at this bug, maybe I should fix it' 22:37 kidclamp in trying to get users more involved I always tell them to follow the bugs they are interested in 22:35 rangi whats the use case? 22:35 kidclamp so I need to tell people to comment, not just follow :-) 22:34 kidclamp cool, thanks! 22:33 cait number of comments 22:33 cait it's one of hte options you can select 22:32 cait if you change columns 22:31 cait hm let me see 22:29 kidclamp how can you do # of comments cait? 22:25 cait number of comments... but number of ccs haven't seen 22:23 kidclamp darn 22:23 rangi not that i know of 22:23 kidclamp any know if there is a way to search or sort in bugzilla by number of cc's/followers 22:13 drojf good night #koha 21:56 rangi heh, i think that was just the first one, but it was a hot day 21:55 tcohen rangi: it looks like it was too much beer for the day for you 21:54 tcohen rangi: cool pictures 21:54 cait hi tcohen :) 21:53 tcohen hi cait 21:53 tcohen hi 21:35 drojf a shadow rabbit 21:35 LibraryClaire lol 21:35 wahanui yep that is probably what I see when I go into circ rules. 21:35 cait yep that 21:34 LibraryClaire magic 21:34 wahanui i heard ah was ? 21:34 cait ah what? 21:34 cait hm? 21:34 drojf cait does a nice whatever she is doing 21:33 rangi https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOWIRtACrXZbsHD5DwoGoy2qFAHf1_IkPqCVYuoAl2OSxobzxzhDf9orYN26ZO6OQ/photo/AF1QipM0oLZA2atS1t-6FFWAgGoe3OmkiVWO0BoxCQ7n?key=Y0NkNl9WNGtvZzNsaFYxb1hwV1d6aUFvdnNBUU93 <-- lol i look wasted (i probably was) 20:57 drojf nice! 20:55 LibraryClaire that's pretty! 20:54 rangi drojf: https://twitter.com/mikeforbes/status/740648028961263616 <-- wellington isn't so bad today either 20:40 cait brb 20:39 Dyrcona heh! 20:39 eythian 12 bedrooms? What am I, some kind of peasant? 20:38 Dyrcona eythian: That's nothing. Kim Dotcom's place is up for sale: http://www.nzfarms.co.nz/2760510 20:35 drojf eythian: i think that is true bathtub tsipouro. not tried yet but smells different 20:34 eythian Well, it only has 18 bedrooms. Of course only for weekends. 20:33 * LibraryClaire whispers 'it has a library...' 20:32 LibraryClaire just for the weekends :P 20:32 eythian http://www.funda.nl/koop/amsterdam/huis-49876819-herengracht-518-keizersgracht-633-p/ <-- time to buy a place here I guess 20:30 rangi oh, that reminds me, i need to drink the beers you and joubu gave me 20:29 eythian but not bad 20:29 eythian a bit bitier than some of the others 20:29 eythian yeah, had it yesterday 20:28 drojf eythian: have you tried the unlabelled tsipouro yet? 20:26 LibraryClaire :/ 20:26 rangi fire at the mcdonalds here 20:26 eythian not 20:26 eythian I hope now 20:25 wahanui fire is http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/72725341/man-accidentally-sets-room-on-fire-during-live-stream 20:25 drojf fire? 20:25 eythian it's cold here, why is my apartment so damn warm with everything open? 20:24 huginn` eythian: The current temperature in Schiphol, Badhoevedorp, Netherlands is 13.7°C (10:24 PM CEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 82%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 30.21 in 1023 hPa (Rising). 20:24 eythian @wunder ams 20:24 eythian sweet 20:24 rangi eythian: joh was stoked with the ink 20:24 huginn` eythian: Error: timed out 20:24 eythian :< 20:24 eythian @wunder ams 20:22 eythian (I copied the wrong link) 20:22 eythian https://goo.gl/photos/mo7Ht1z4azCpwwEN7 <-- try this 20:21 cait 404 20:21 eythian https://photos.google.com/movie/AF1QipPBodX1eA7__EUtUV8jlCaxp4eQLPm-94Eo_sVR <-- or in video form (warning: sound) 20:20 eythian yeah :) 20:20 LibraryClaire lol 20:20 drojf eythian: great job at making the distance between amsterdam and berlin seem really huge 20:19 * cait misses people 20:19 rangi oh cool you got one of the horseless carriage 20:19 eythian https://goo.gl/photos/Fcoc1ne7q3SSL8Gv9 <-- more 20:18 rangi yeah it was a lovely place 20:18 drojf i miss greece 20:18 LibraryClaire yay pics :D 20:17 drojf that would be nice 20:17 drojf :D 20:17 rangi i can send you the others if you want 20:16 rangi drojf: i only put online the one where you cant tell who you are :) 20:16 cait very weird people :) 20:16 drojf haha weird people on a boat 20:15 cait oh even more pictues 20:15 cait yeah... i should have known better 20:15 rangi https://www.flickr.com/photos/ranginui/albums/72157666855401463 20:15 eythian after telling me off for leaving my tablet on the plane... 20:15 cait sacrifice to the gods of travel i guess 20:14 LibraryClaire aw :( 20:14 cait no, didn't turn up again 20:14 cait it's can't have been the person coughing all the time *hides* 20:14 LibraryClaire aaw, you didn't find yours? 20:14 * cait just unpacked a new fitbit 20:14 LibraryClaire hey, someone gave this to me! 20:14 * cait blames LibraryClaire :P 20:14 eythian have a sore throat setting in 20:13 eythian I think I caught something from you people 20:10 cait hi drojf :) 20:10 drojf then hi cait :) 20:09 LibraryClaire :) 20:08 cait drojf: not for a little bit longer 20:08 cait at least some of the piles are shrinking :) 20:08 cait slowly getting through it 20:06 LibraryClaire how's the mass of email? 20:04 LibraryClaire still not amazing, I think it's turning into a cough now, but I can function (just) ;) 20:03 * drojf waits to see if cait runs out again 20:02 cait throat getting better? 20:02 cait hey - how are you doing? 20:02 LibraryClaire hi cait 20:02 * cait waves 19:45 asdf Thanks! Will this retain system preferences, catalogs, etc., or will a full backup/restore be necessary? 19:43 gmcharlt_ asdf: http://koha.1045719.n5.nabble.com/Debian-packages-for-16-05-00-td5890242.html 19:42 asdf Hey guys. Is there an upgrade process listed somewhere for going from 3.22 to 16.05? (debian package install). Will simply following the upgrade instructions in the INSTALL file be sufficient? 19:16 * barbara_ slaps barbara_ around a bit with a large fishbot 17:45 huginn` nengard: The current temperature in North Acres, Austin, Texas is 31.8°C (12:40 PM CDT on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 55%. Dew Point: 22.0°C. Pressure: 29.95 in 1014 hPa (Steady). 17:45 nengard @wunder 78754 17:45 LibraryClaire feels like :P 17:44 drojf 71% means you can almost swim 17:43 LibraryClaire humid :( 17:43 huginn` LibraryClaire: The current temperature in Chilworth, Chilworth, United Kingdom is 21.2°C (6:42 PM BST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 71%. Dew Point: 16.0°C. Pressure: 30.21 in 1023 hPa (Steady). 17:43 LibraryClaire @wunder Guildford, uk 17:34 drojf really tries that summer thing 17:34 huginn` drojf: The current temperature in Berlin Tegel, Germany is 22.0°C (7:20 PM CEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 43%. Dew Point: 9.0°C. Pressure: 29.95 in 1014 hPa (Steady). 17:34 drojf @wunder berlin, germany 16:58 * drojf heads home 16:32 reiveune bye 15:52 drojf i did 15:50 huginn` 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16346 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, wizzyrea, In Discussion , Website should be translatable 15:50 mveron drojf: Did you see the comment on Bug 16346? 15:48 mveron hi drojf 15:48 drojf hi mveron 15:33 mveron Hi again #koha 15:06 wizzycray very early :) 14:52 eythian wizzycrayfish is up early 14:51 LibraryClaire greedy 14:37 drojf oh look, i got two wiki pages for packaging. i am great at that information management thing 14:20 drojf i did pay attention, but i did all the exercises :P 14:19 eythian https://owncloud.kallisti.net.nz/s/V38lAuuuCfxdGY5 <-- drojf 14:18 eythian liw: it's not packaging specific generally though, which makes that more complicated 14:18 eythian (one moment) 14:18 eythian I linked it in the talk itself, you shoulda been paying attention ;) 14:18 liw I'd document the package dependency changes in debian/changelog 14:17 drojf are the presentations up btw? or would you send me the packaging one? 14:17 eythian joubu fixed it there anyway, but don't forget to check back into wheezy too. 14:17 drojf oh i still need to write that email to the debian perl people 14:17 drojf or i add a wiki page for the crazy stuff that i find on the way 14:16 drojf ok, maybe i just had a funny case to start with. if that does not happen all the time it can be found in the bug report 14:15 eythian but anyway, there's no central database of it, things didn't tend to get that complicated 14:14 drojf that versions seems to be kind of arbitrary in that case. for catmandu there were things like "get that version of a because b requires it or c will break and 4 will deinstall koha-common" 14:14 eythian https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Building_Debian_Dependencies/Dependency_Guidelines <-- tell people off for violating point 3 14:13 huginn` 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16695 normal, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Exception::Class 1.39 is not packaged for Jessie 14:13 drojf i was looking at bug 16695 14:12 eythian in general, my policy was "get the latest one" 14:12 eythian we don't really declare them in the package (we could, but we don't) 14:12 drojf at least for some stuff i have seen regarding catmandu it would make sense to gather that somewhere 14:11 drojf eythian: do we (did we when you were packaging manager) keep track somewhere in a central place why we require certain versions of dependencies? or is that just my job to know it all or look up all single bugs? 14:10 LibraryClaire hallo 13:58 liw it's about 11000 words so not long 13:57 drojf and then have nowhere to walk and sit on the couch for a week 13:57 liw I've heard that response before 13:57 drojf i could start by making different piles from the one pile, then putting the smaller piles everywhere 13:57 liw heh 13:56 drojf heh thanks, reading that is on the pile of stuff i did not have time for yet (not kidding) 13:56 * liw throws http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ at drojf 13:55 drojf when do other people do all the stuff they want to do? sigh. 13:54 drojf i still have not set up koha 16.05 on a raspi 3 with plack. i guess that could really work in production for a small library 13:42 drojf [off] lousy DIY culture not making me rich 13:42 eythian [off] drojf: nah, I'll just do it myself :) 13:41 drojf [off] eythian: it is, i'd still recommend hiring me for some things ;) 13:41 eythian that too 13:41 drojf [off] oh, looks like they are windows only. bad luck 13:40 eythian drojf: it's relatively specialised software, from their point of view. 13:38 drojf [off] i wonder why people with a regular IT want to oursource koha. i'm torn between "yay give me all your money" and "if you do all the other things, i could just show you how to do it in an afternoon" 13:35 drojf delete sender 13:35 drojf delete everything 13:34 liw I could easily automatically delete anything older than a week, but I'm quite ready for that :) 13:33 drojf liw: the "do something about it" part needs more work. like, actually doing something, while you go to bed for another hour 13:31 liw instead i have a cronjob that runs http://paste.debian.net/726617/ every morning 13:31 drojf that icecream made me want to sleep. it was not even that much 13:30 drojf liw: people would love it 13:30 liw drojf, I have sometimes considered a bot that autoresponds to mails in my needs-responding folder with a mail saying "Thank you for your email. Your email is important to us. We well get to it shortly. You are now number N in the queue. Have a nice day." 13:29 drojf magnuse: yes :D 13:29 eythian drojf: I think I'm below 1,500 unread now. 13:29 drojf or… they should be allowed to send emails, but not allowed to start waiting for an answer before i am done with the others 13:29 * magnuse wanders off 13:29 magnuse drojf: except new customers? :-) 13:28 drojf people should not be allowed to send me emails until i am through all the old ones 13:26 ashimema ++ for api 13:26 ashimema this was before the uesr api was any good ;)_ 13:25 ashimema I don't want that ;) 13:25 eythian (well, I suppose it literally is, but it shouldn't be treated like one.) 13:25 eythian a database schema is not an API :) 13:25 * ashimema has actually done this for a customer once.. it wasn't pretty but it worked 13:25 drojf i'd be up for not being an identity provider and they just implement sip2 auth in that other thing :P 13:25 eythian look at a user API 13:25 eythian don't look at the table 13:25 eythian ashimema: stop wanting that :) 13:25 ashimema simplesamlphp would be where I'd start.. build a quick php driver to look at the koha borrowers tables as it's source 13:24 eythian the only IdP I've had any interaction with was bad. But it was commercial and enterprisey. 13:24 magnuse yeah, that sounds like a better ideea 13:24 ashimema Shibboleth has IdP packages and SimpleSAMLphp works pretty reasonably 13:24 ashimema If I were going to go about being an Identity Provider I'd use one of the half decent off the shelf solutions ;) 13:23 eythian all would be horrible 13:23 eythian maintaining the code and configuring the systems to work 13:22 eythian supporting SAML is terrible enough from the SP point of view 13:22 magnuse or maintaining the code? 13:22 magnuse if koha was the source of truth about users? 13:22 magnuse oh? 13:22 eythian it would be a terrible maintenance job 13:21 eythian magnuse: no, it wouldn't. 13:21 drojf i think they want to outsource that part to koha from another system 13:21 eythian yeah, I've made it be an SP before 13:21 magnuse t'would be cool if koha could be an identity provider, though 13:21 drojf yes 13:21 cait service provider, but not identity provider 13:21 cait hm no 13:20 drojf at least as far as i understand shibboleth in koha 13:20 drojf from what i understand they would need koha to be the identity provider for something else, i don't see that happening 13:19 drojf i am not sure if it is actually a solution to what they want. will find out later this week 13:18 eythian drojf: hmm, SAML is not an enjoyable experience in general 13:17 ashimema haha.. good luck ;) 13:14 drojf i should shoot some icecream in the general ashimema direction as a precaution, so i can go there and cry about it later 13:13 drojf hm. yes. i guess. 13:13 magnuse great way to learn something new :-) 13:12 drojf hm. may have talked myself into setting up shibboleth. oops 13:11 cait better not 13:10 drojf i need an icecream cannon 13:07 druthb Just throw a little to the left of nengard. 13:07 * druthb would take some mango please, drojf. 13:04 * magnuse marvels at the chocolate icecream flying by the window 13:03 nengard WOOO HOOOO 12:56 * drojf throws chocolate icecream around the globe 12:53 nengard chocolate please :) 12:53 nengard yes 12:50 drojf nengard: i got chocolate and mango now. want some? ;) 12:38 nengard i want ice cream 12:30 drojf icecream break? 12:15 drojf davidnind++ # already made a wiki page for next meeting 12:08 * thd quits before he is disconnected again. 12:06 druthb Thanks, bgkriegel. :) 12:05 bgkriegel druthb: Happy birthday! :) 12:04 ashimema am now.. for a little while.. whats up drojf 12:04 ashimema :) 12:00 drojf ashimema: around? 12:00 * druthb agrees with wahanui 12:00 druthb yes? 12:00 eythian cait: yeah 11:59 nengard HA!!! 11:59 wahanui She's really more trouble than she's worth, you know? 11:59 nengard druthb? 11:59 drojf lol 11:59 druthb lol 11:59 wahanui well, edinburgh is for sure now 11:59 cait edinburgh? 11:59 cait heh 11:59 eythian https://goo.gl/photos/eWmPi5mFtDFceQUG9 <-- cait, rangi: 4 years ago today 11:55 drojf lol 11:54 thd eythian: Twice as funny for being a parody based upon the work of copyright maximalist musicians. 11:50 eythian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5HX67WqUSY <-- drojf, apropos of nothing 11:50 thd drojf: I know. The last few weeks have left me extraordinarily sleep deprived trying to find a lawyer for my friend. 11:48 drojf thd: plenty of time for the kohacon 2018 vote if you feel like it 11:47 thd Sorry to all for not having had more time to put voting issues in the wiki and also bring them up on the mailing list. 11:44 thd` As I feared, my friend is in court that day. 11:43 * thd` keeps losing the connection. 11:43 wahanui logs is http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/ 11:43 eythian wahanui: logs 11:42 thd` Do we have a date for the next meeting? 11:42 LibraryClaire sorry for turning up late - I was stuck on the underground 11:42 LibraryClaire drojf++ 11:42 LibraryClaire cait++ 11:41 drojf lol 11:41 eythian a more popular typo 11:41 huginn` eythian: Karma for "drofj" has been increased 3 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 3. 11:41 eythian @karma drofj 11:41 druthb :P 11:41 huginn` eythian: Karma for "crojf" has been increased 1 time and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 1. 11:41 eythian @karma crojf 11:40 druthb cait++ 11:40 druthb drofj++ #can't type; has a dumb 11:40 druthb crojf++ 11:39 cait drojf++ thx for taking over 11:39 davidnind drojf++ 11:38 davidnind cait++ 11:38 drojf thanks everyone 11:38 huginn` Log: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2016/general_irc_meeting__8_june_2016.2016-06-08-10.14.log.html 11:38 huginn` Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2016/general_irc_meeting__8_june_2016.2016-06-08-10.14.txt 11:38 huginn` Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2016/general_irc_meeting__8_june_2016.2016-06-08-10.14.html 11:38 huginn` Meeting ended Wed Jun 8 11:38:41 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 11:38 drojf #endmeeting 11:38 drojf #agreed next meeting july 6, 20 UTC 11:38 davidnind something :) 11:38 LibraryClaire +1 11:38 davidnind +1 11:37 drojf waiting for another minute or its decided ;) 11:37 bgkriegel +1 11:37 drojf please do a +1 or something ;) 11:36 drojf july 6, 20 UTC? 11:36 eythian http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-illusion-of-being-observed-can-make-you-better-person/ <-- just put a giant eye on the page 11:36 drojf #topic next meeting 11:36 drojf we need a date for next time 11:35 drojf that was the last point on the agenda 11:35 drojf there seem to be none 11:35 thd However, would people be discouraged from faking or hesitate to fake from having the question of institution put to them? 11:35 drojf #topic Actions from General IRC meeting 6 April 2016 (deferred) and General IRC meeting 4 May 2016 (none) 11:35 davidnind yes please 11:34 drojf moving on? 11:34 drojf i'll think about it for next time 11:34 drojf and they could just put whatever anyway 11:34 drojf thd: if you can leave it blank, probably not so much. i can't assume somebody to be more of a fake for not filling a non-required field 11:34 davidnind the joys of 'online voting'! 11:33 eythian true 11:33 drojf or several of those 11:33 drojf in my experience people just use work and private email 11:33 drojf eythian: valid email format yes, valid email like click a link in the email probably not, and not worth it 11:33 drojf ok. i would not vote on that. if necessary we could do that next time. just think about it 11:33 thd How advantageous might such a field be for identifying fakes or encouraging people to be honest and avoiding fakes in the first place? 11:32 eythian could you check for a valid email, or does that then become a Lot More Work? 11:31 drojf if it's ok to have none, it's probably not worth bothering some about it? 11:31 thd A note would be needed for institution allowing none, blank, individual, or some equivalent. 11:31 drojf good point 11:30 davidnind some people are not part of organisations, so could be optional 11:30 eythian just so long as it would be clear that it's OK for anyone not attached to an institution to have a procedure 11:30 cait still phone sorry 11:30 cait institution would leave out people interested comeing 'themselves' maybe 11:30 thd We should collect as much brief information as we can reasonably and privately without overburdoning the process for everyone. 11:29 drojf but i would be interested in your opinion about it. any cons? 11:28 drojf i would like to do that (if i conduct the vote), because its way more work for fakes. the will still be there of course 11:28 drojf so far we only had an email address (and ip addresses and referrers). do you consider it good or bad to also get the name and maybe institution of people voting? 11:27 thd Do we still lack a counting method for ranked voting? Are we deferring the issue of counting method? 11:27 drojf we had a lot of fakes last time, and the question was, if we would take more info this time for people voting 11:26 thd`` I am having real trouble staying connected today. 11:26 wahanui hmmm... next topic is a tricky one... 11:26 drojf ok next topic 11:26 drojf ah phone 11:26 drojf oh why did i become chair? cait gone? 11:26 thd`` The counting method can actually change the outcome in ranked voting so it is important to use one which seems to give a fair result expressing people's actual preferences in as wide a range of actual circumstances as possible. 11:25 davidnind This is my summary with an example of what we voted for: example 3 choices (proposals) - rank 1, 2 and 3 for the 3 options however you choose (have to rank all), proposal with the highest count 'wins'? 11:24 davidnind My opinion - way to complicated for what we are trying to achieve + we have already voted 11:22 huginn` Current chairs: cait drojf 11:22 cait #chair drojf 11:22 cait phone 11:22 thd` I suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method which is used by Debian and some other software communities. 11:22 thd` We still need a counting system. 11:21 thd` What just happened? My connection dropped. 11:21 drojf next topic? :) 11:20 drojf but we reached the decision for today. if anyone wants to bring that up next time, alright. i would not ;) 11:20 drojf eythian: its possible and a thing people do 11:20 eythian a meeting is not the place for this though :) 11:20 eythian drojf: no, that's not how you do it 11:19 cait eythian: how do you see who won? 11:19 drojf eythian: you could count more points for rank 1 than rank 2. 11:19 cait i think we shoudl discuss counting at the nextmeeting tho 11:19 eythian cait: ranking is not allocating points 11:18 cait eythian: how points will be given 11:18 drojf we have not discussed that. :P 11:18 eythian cait: what is your question? 11:18 thd The count is not clear without specifying. 11:17 cait shouldn't ask - but is the points given to each clear then? 11:17 drojf that was easy. only took 8 months :P 11:17 drojf thanks 11:17 thd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method 11:17 cait #agreed The ranking will require to rank all bidders/locations. 11:17 huginn` Voted on "Do you want to rank all (all) or be able to not rank those you wouldn't be able to attend (skip) (all,skip)?" Results are 11:17 cait #endvote 11:16 cait ending vote in a quick moment 11:16 thd Ranking only one reduces to 'strategic' score voting. 11:16 Diman #vote all 11:16 schnydszch #vote all 11:15 thd #vote all 11:15 LibraryClaire #vote all 11:15 cait #vote all 11:15 davidnind #vote all 11:15 thd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_criterion 11:15 thd You do not have rank voting if you do not rank all. 11:15 thd If you do not rank all then you have score voting. 11:14 huginn` Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 11:14 huginn` Begin voting on: Do you want to rank all (all) or be able to not rank those you wouldn't be able to attend (skip) (all,skip)? Valid vote options are Yes, No. 11:14 cait #startvote Do you want to rank all (all) or be able to not rank those you wouldn't be able to attend (skip) (all,skip)? 11:14 cait or all vs skip yep 11:14 druthb hiyas. 11:14 thd Debian uses the Condorcet method with a Schulze count if I am not mistaken. 11:14 drojf so do all vs skip and we are done :) 11:14 cait ok, now rank all or rank the one you want to go to? 11:14 khall hi druthb! 11:14 drojf look, that was easy 11:14 druthb o/ 11:14 cait #agreed the voting mechanism will be 'ranking' 11:13 huginn` rank (10): LibraryClaire, davidnind, cait, eythian, khall, indradg, thd, drojf, Diman, schnydszch 11:13 huginn` Voted on "Which voting method do you prefer?" Results are 11:13 cait #endvote 11:13 indradg #vote rank 11:13 schnydszch #vote rank 11:13 cait waiting a few more seconds... 11:13 Diman #vote rank 11:13 thd #vote rank 11:13 eythian #vote rank 11:13 khall #vote rank 11:13 davidnind #vote rank 11:12 LibraryClaire #vote rank 11:12 drojf #vote rank 11:12 cait #vote rank 11:12 drojf two votes. first: yes/whatever/no or ranking. second: depending on first: yes/no or yes/maybe/no OR ranking/all or ranking/skip 11:11 huginn` Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 11:11 huginn` Begin voting on: Which voting method do you prefer? Valid vote options are , rank, options, . 11:11 cait #startvote Which voting method do you prefer? (rank, options) 11:11 davidnind my view - keep as simple as possible: either yes/no, or rank options from 1 to 3 for example if three proposals 11:11 cait so lets vote ranking or yes/no/(maybe) to limit this down a bit 11:11 cait ok 11:11 drojf ok. proposal: 11:11 drojf because that will be the point people complain about then :P 11:11 eythian everyone loves bikeshedding voting discussions. 11:10 drojf it does matter 11:10 * thd checks. 11:10 eythian cait: I think it's usually implemented as being allowed to skip, but it doesn't matter. 11:10 drojf what counting method may that be? 11:10 thd I would like to suggest ranking with the same counting method used in the Debian community. 11:10 drojf and who wants to veto has to write a 20 page proposal for next year 11:10 cait eythian: so that's rank all then? 11:09 drojf we can just choose to go with that if its what people prefer 11:09 drojf before the vote is conducted 11:09 drojf i am fine with ranking all, i just want a decision :P 11:09 thd Almost always :) 11:08 eythian cait: order your preferences from 1 to n, or similar. 11:08 cait we had yes/no last time 11:08 cait not true 11:08 thd We have always used ranking in some form for voting on KohaCon. 11:08 cait eythian: what is stv? 11:08 thd The problem comes when others do not express their vote as strongly and consequently have their vote diminished in the counting. 11:08 cait or do we want to say yes/no/(maybe) 11:08 eythian just use STV and be done with it unless there's only a couple of options in which case it doesn't matter anyway, it's not really a matter that requires so much wasted time discussing it. 11:08 cait do we want ranking? 11:08 cait ok, so maybe first question is 11:07 thd drojf: If that is your true position to give all weight to one candidate then voting that way is fine. 11:06 thd 'Strategic' voting boosts the overall strength of each strategic vote. 11:06 drojf how is that more honest than vote for the place i wanna go and null for the others? 11:06 cait hi bernardo :) 11:05 bgkriegel hi drojf ! 11:05 thd 'Honest' means in this case not disproportionately artificially lowering the vote given to lesser preferences. 11:05 drojf hi bgkriegel 11:04 bgkriegel #info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel, Córdoba, Argentina 11:04 drojf that term does not make any sense in that context 11:04 drojf what is honest about that? 11:04 thd Honest voters who give every candidate due consideration have the strength of their vote diluted. 11:04 drojf that is what people do 11:03 drojf and i dont see why i should not vote maximum for the one location i can go 11:03 drojf thd: yes, the question is kind of, do people want to have that or not. i am fine with all options, but we should have a rule. because so far, after the vote starts, people complain that it is the one way or the other 11:03 cait i am not sure I understand why this is a bad thing in itself 11:03 cait in that place? 11:02 cait yeah.. but if you only woudl attend that one kohacon? 11:02 LibraryClaire #info Claire Gravely, UAL, UK 11:02 thd If I choose to vote strategically I would vote the maximum value permitted for my preferred choice and minimum for all others. 11:01 drojf hi LibraryClaire. we are in a meeting, you should introduce yourself 11:01 magnuse #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 11:01 LibraryClaire hello 11:01 drojf strategically vs honestly? 11:01 davidnind I don't really understand the nuance about 'strategic' voting, or voting 'honestly' - vote is a vote? 11:01 thd It may be less of an issue if the range is only 1 and 0. 11:00 drojf what does that mean? 11:00 thd The problem is only when some people vote strategically and others vote honestly. 10:59 thd Have we always used some variant of option 3 in the past for KohaCon with the issue then being how we counted the votes? 10:58 cait if i don't want to go to one locationand don't wnat to gvie it poitns - would that be strategic voting... and what is bad about it? 10:58 mveron Bye #koha 10:58 cait i am not sure what we try to prevent here 10:58 * mveron has to leave - and would vote vor y/n/m 10:58 cait I feel like i might be missing something 10:58 thd Strategic voting is most difficult with option 3 but would still need a counting method. 10:57 drojf who here knows what they would choose, and who cares at all? 10:57 davidnind method first I think, then work out way to minimise fakes 10:57 thd The downside of score voting is if people do not vote honestly but vote strategically. 10:56 drojf maybe a short question to the audience 10:55 thd I know that the fakes we have had are humans ;) 10:55 cait whatever scheme we choose, will be gameable, unless we remove fakes by ip/email address checking or similar 10:55 cait humans multiple voting 10:55 cait in our case 10:55 cait thd: the fakes are human 10:54 drojf lol 10:54 drojf so far we have 1 10:54 thd However, If we would have only two options then there would be not much of an issue. 10:54 thd Forcing even 'fakes' to rank all options would reduce gaming. 10:53 thd If a significant number of 'fakes' would go undetected score voting may maximise the problem with fakes. 10:52 thd If people are not forced to rank all then you have the equivalent of score voting. 10:51 thd There is no perfectly correct voting system possible but the problems of each should be at least linked. 10:51 cait well rank all / don't rank all 10:51 cait y/n, y/n/m and rank 10:51 cait hm whta i see would be like 3 options 10:50 thd Option 3 is the only one although with many variants used in government elections. 10:50 drojf but it could be of course 10:50 drojf the mechanism has not been relevant in both votes i managed 10:49 drojf trust me, the more interesting gaming part is getting the fakes out of the votes 10:49 thd Options 1, 2, and 4 are all score voting which can be easily gamed but would be good for building consensus over multiple votes. 10:48 drojf that is why nobody has done it for a full year 10:48 cait but it hink we need to be clear about what we will use, even if it's to the most ideal one 10:48 drojf nobody has 10:48 cait I don#t actually have the time to get into voting mechanisms to be honest 10:47 drojf true, as that is not part of the choices atm 10:47 thd Reading the choices as described is not enough to understand how they work mathematically and omits how they are counted in every case. 10:46 drojf and that is not enough 10:46 drojf no problem in making them better, but so far we have none 10:46 drojf if you want to have other ones, there is plenty of time after the next vote :) 10:46 drojf the options i present are the basic options we discussed last time. or the main difference between them 10:46 thd I know I should have taken some time to at least link to a fuller discussion of comparable options on Wikipedia. 10:45 cait we have been discussing this since the last vote, we need to make a decision 10:45 wahanui I saw it on Digg! 10:45 cait it's true 10:45 * cait nods 10:45 drojf and we never did 10:45 drojf i brought that up right after the last vote 10:45 drojf its not going to happen until next time 10:45 drojf nobody took the time to describe them any further 10:44 thd All the options are underdescribed and thus prevent an informed vote on their face. 10:44 mveron IMO yes/no/maybe would work fine 10:44 drojf sorry if that sounds rude, but the only person trying to get this anywhere is myself, because i might set upo the vote and THEN have people complaining they wanted a different scheme ;) 10:43 thd I know :) 10:43 drojf and the only contribution from your side is that you say its not enough. and you helped a friend with their eviction. which is a very noble cause, but in no way related to koha and does not get us anywhere 10:43 cait he hasn't been around in quite a while 10:43 thd Where is slef when we need him? 10:42 thd I know, I have been helping a friend avoid eviction. 10:42 drojf i am not an expert in voting schemes, i just want to have some general rule how to set it up. before we start voting 10:42 thd The options as described do not necessarily lead to the results presumed. 10:42 drojf you did not enter anything else. it is in the wiki and has been for at least two months 10:41 thd That is a false distinction. 10:41 drojf and then choose the exact option next time. otherwise we will have 2 hours of discussions next time and nothing in the end. like always 10:41 cait so we got 2 options: yes/no and yes/no/maybe ? 10:41 cait hm ok 10:41 drojf what we should decide today is: do we want to have a voring mechanism that distinguishes between "yes", "no" and "maybe", or only "yes" and "no" 10:40 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Processes_for_KohaCons 10:40 mveron https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Processes_for_KohaCons 10:39 cait so can you presentt he 2 general options quickly? 10:39 cait ok 10:39 cait i don'rt care so much about the mechanism we choose, but it hink it shoudl be clear before the voting begins 10:39 drojf so we have it easier next time 10:39 drojf we should vote today for two general options 10:39 cait could we do a vote about the vote? ;) 10:39 cait next meeting 10:39 cait the decision? yes 10:38 drojf voting 10:38 drojf arrrr 10:38 drojf voring 10:38 drojf ok then we have to get the voring thing done soon :P 10:37 cait you didn't leave 10:37 thd Did my connection die again? 10:37 cait #agreed the deadline for bids will be one week after the august meeting - exact date to be set next meeting 10:37 drojf we could vote on it 10:36 drojf and its anounced > a month before 10:36 cait i am logging an agreed if noone is against it? 10:36 drojf next meeting we agree on the general irc meeting date for august, plus one week for bids. should work? 10:36 cait ok 10:36 drojf i don't think that is a problem really if we set it with the meeting date at the next meeting? 10:35 cait and with timezones... probably should be clear :) 10:35 cait maybe we should set an august date to make things easier 10:35 cait but the date won't be set then until the meeting 10:35 mveron I think so 10:35 cait ok 10:35 drojf does that make sense? 10:34 drojf so we would have two more meetings before 10:34 drojf we could just go with the "one week after august meeting" 10:34 drojf it was earlier than i thought 10:34 drojf from last year 10:33 drojf " bidding for Kohacon 2016 locations will end one week after the August 2015 general IRC meeting. If you want to host Kohacon 2016, add your proposal to the wiki[1] now and announce it on the general mailing list, so people know about it. No proposals will be accepted after 12 August 2015, 22 UTC." 10:33 schnydszch I'm speaking of our bid, sorry 10:33 cait deadline for bids, deadline for vote? 10:33 cait which date are we discussing? 10:33 drojf so end of august maybe for deadline 10:33 drojf thanks mveron, just looked it up 10:32 schnydszch June will be fine, still Summer during that time in the Philippines, well, climate change-thing 10:32 cait sorry, fingers wrong on the keyboard 10:32 cait ij 10:32 mveron Yes, last time was voting in september: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 10:31 drojf i think we had september last year and that worked fine for a conference in june 10:31 schnydszch for the Philippines bid 10:31 schnydszch the 2017 conf, at least for our bid 10:31 cait schnydszch: conf or vote? 10:31 cait it depends if another would want to make it earlier 10:31 schnydszch #info we can make it earlier 10:31 cait so in that case it would probably be ok 10:31 cait the urrent bid is for september 10:30 drojf end of september, or is that too late? 10:30 drojf i think we used to do that septemberish? 10:30 cait no i think we haven't 10:30 cait #info curently one bid for 2016: Manila, Philippines 10:30 drojf or have we done that already? 10:30 drojf we need to set a deadline 10:29 cait correct 10:29 drojf two bids, only one valid if we go with the continent switching thing 10:29 cait drojf++ 10:29 cait #info drojf sent a reminder to the list asking for more bids 10:29 cait #topic KohaCon17 10:29 * cait waves :) 10:28 cait moving on? 10:28 Diman #info Dimitris Antonakis, Athens, Greece 10:28 cait ok 10:28 cait heh 10:28 drojf hmpf 10:28 drojf #link http://www.livemedia.com/kohacon16 10:28 cait #link http://www.livemedia.com/kohacon16 10:28 mveron http://www.livemedia.com/kohacon16 10:27 cait lots of interesting presentations - I can recommend watching the videos! :) 10:27 davidnind streaming+++ worked really well 10:26 cait overall very good organization 10:26 mveron streaming ++ 10:26 thd Still not quite asleep but not quite awake here. 10:26 drojf good kohacon, would go again 10:26 cait auth_library++ ikourmu++ 10:26 cait kohacon16_organizers++ 10:26 davidnind yep, still awake... 10:26 cait #topic KohaCon16 10:25 cait anyone still awake? 10:25 cait does someone want to add something? 10:24 cait there are quite a few problems when you try to install Koha on Ubuntu 16.04 right now - because of the newer MySQL version (5.6+) - but there are quite a few patches underway to help with that 10:24 cait packages are available, but i think without the packages for elastic so far 10:23 cait ok, 16.05 has been released 10:22 cait hm no rm, any rmaints? 10:22 cait #topic Update on releases 10:22 cait moving on 10:21 cait any other announcements? 10:20 cait not much from me - QA queue is pretty full, hopefully it will normalize soon to a lower number again 10:19 indradg #info Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, India 10:19 cait #topic Announcements 10:19 cait so moving on now :) 10:19 cait ok 10:19 khall #info Kyle M Hall, Bywater Solutions 10:19 drojf #info Mirko Tietgen, koha.abunchofthings.net, Berlin, Germany 10:18 drojf so late, oops 10:18 cait ah or not 10:18 drojf ah 10:18 cait ok, moving on 10:18 cait drojf: ping 10:17 khall mornin! 10:17 cait khall: ? 10:16 mveron :-) 10:16 mveron #info Marc Véron, Koha Support Schweiz, Allschwil 10:16 huginn` mveron: Error: The command "info" is available in the Factoids and RSS plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "info". 10:16 mveron @info Marc Véron, Koha Support Schweiz, Allschwil 10:16 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 10:16 schnydszch #info Eugene Espinoza - Manila, Philippines 10:15 davidnind #info David Nind, Wellington, New Zealand 10:15 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 10:15 cait and davidnind++ for sending the reminder 10:15 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_8_June_2016 10:15 cait today's agenda can be found at 10:14 cait please introduce yourself with #info 10:14 wahanui #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient 10:14 cait #topic introductions 10:14 huginn` The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting__8_june_2016' 10:14 huginn` Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 10:14 huginn` Meeting started Wed Jun 8 10:14:43 2016 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 10:14 cait #startmeeting General IRC Meeting, 8 June 2016 10:14 cait but... it's getting cold! :) 10:14 cait ok back 10:13 thd` People who have the delivered lunch should be awake enough to chair ;) 10:12 davidnind hopefully there are enough of us 10:11 cait or someone else can chair of course 10:11 cait but i have to grab the delivered lunch first to keep it save :) 10:11 cait if enough people are here we can have one 10:11 cait i just saw the email 10:10 thd` One is scheduled. 10:10 cait do we have a meeting? 10:10 * mveron waves 10:09 * cait waves 09:57 huginn` mveron: The current temperature in Grenchen, Switzerland is 17.0°C (11:50 AM CEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 15.0°C. Pressure: 30.15 in 1021 hPa (Steady). 09:57 mveron @wunder Allschwil 09:41 mveron Hi #koha 09:23 drojf ah ok 09:20 magnuse nope, i just have a stand as part of the exhibition 09:17 drojf magnuse: are you speaking there? 09:12 magnuse the buliding is named after the guy who invented object oriented programming 09:12 drojf cool :D 09:11 magnuse rooms here have names like shell, sed and perl :-) 09:11 magnuse the conf is in the building of the CS department of the university of oslo 09:10 * magnuse is promoting himself at a library conf mostly about electronic journals and open access 09:05 drojf hei magnuse 09:05 magnuse moin drojf 09:05 drojf hi again 09:05 magnuse you have to sign in with your library card and pin code, but then you typically get access to the library from 7 am to 11 pm, even if the staff is only there from 8 am to 4 pm 09:04 magnuse eythian: hehe, it's a big thing here 08:51 eythian I'm not aware of it, but it wouldn't be impossible in small towns I expect. 08:50 magnuse libraries that are open without any staff, is that a thing outside scandinavia too? 08:39 * magnuse waves from oslo 08:26 barbara_ Good morning from the shinny limassol - Cyprus :) 08:22 drojf oh, irc meeting 08:22 huginn` drojf: The current temperature in Berlin Tegel, Germany is 22.0°C (9:50 AM CEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 46%. Dew Point: 10.0°C. Pressure: 30.04 in 1017 hPa (Steady). 08:22 drojf @wunder berlin, germany 08:08 huginn` liw: The current temperature in Helsinki, Finland is 13.0°C (10:50 AM EEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 29.68 in 1005 hPa (Steady). 08:08 liw @wunder helsinki 08:07 huginn` eythian: The current temperature in Schiphol, Badhoevedorp, Netherlands is 17.2°C (9:57 AM CEST on June 08, 2016). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 75%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 30.18 in 1022 hPa (Steady). 08:07 eythian @wunder ams 08:07 eythian actually, not that warm. It just felt it biking in I guess. 08:07 eythian it's warm and humid here, the forecast thunderstorms almost never appear. 08:06 liw I would be, were it not for an uncaring world and thunderstorm 08:05 eythian I could still be asleep right now 07:10 wahanui salut, alex_a 07:10 alex_a bonjour 06:53 reiveune salut LibraryClaire 06:52 LibraryClaire Hi reiveune 06:51 reiveune hello 06:43 * cait waves and runs out 06:36 LibraryClaire Guten morgen drojf 06:36 drojf guten morgen LibraryClaire 06:29 LibraryClaire Morning #koha 06:22 fridolin hie 05:09 drojf wizzyrea++ 04:47 drojf morning #koha 03:00 mtompset Well, I'm going to finish my netflix video and get to bed. Have a great day (24 hour period), #koha 02:13 huginn` 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16335 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, mtompset, ASSIGNED , Refactor OpacHiddenItems 02:13 mtompset tcohen: I've got the start of an OpacHiddenItems filter on bug 16335... just have to plan out the integration and testing. :) 02:12 BobB hi mtompset 02:10 tcohen hi mtompset 02:10 mtompset And BobB :) 02:09 mtompset Greetings, irma rangi tcohen. :) 02:07 tcohen wb rangi! 02:06 rangi still pretty jetlagged 02:06 irma I mean, body back home but not really home yet ... 02:06 irma Are you feeling ok? Or still in transit? 02:06 irma welcome back rangi :-) Another great Koha conference !! 01:35 rangi no worries 01:34 dpk1 rangi++ 01:34 dpk1 Thanks rangi. 01:23 rangi yep 01:21 dpk1 Me thinks we could detect this is running and either initiate the restart in the upgrade script or at least warn… 01:20 dpk1 Score! 01:19 dpk1 Ack. 01:19 rangi try restarting it 01:18 dpk1 Yup. We got memcache. 01:18 wahanui memcache is easy 01:18 rangi memcache? 01:17 wizzyrea definitely looks like you have a version mismatch somehow 01:16 dpk1 [Wed Jun 08 02:06:57 2016] [error] [client 71.212.29.4] [Wed Jun 8 02:06:57 2016] 404.pl: Database update needed, redirecting to Installer. Database is 3.2206000 and Koha is 3.2207000 at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Auth.pm line 713., referer: http://catalogue-admin.efdss.org/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl?step=1&op=updatestructure 01:16 dpk1 This is the error message: 01:16 dpk1 Which Koha.pm, I see one in koha/lib, and koha/lib/C4 01:16 wizzyrea I did a 3.22.05 -> 3.22.07 earlier with no trouble 01:15 rangi you could check the value in the syspref to make sure it is the same as in Koha.pm 01:15 rangi ah no, i misread that is right 01:14 rangi } 01:14 rangi SetVersion($DBversion); 01:14 rangi print "Upgrade to $DBversion done (Koha 3.22.7)\n"; 01:14 rangi if ( CheckVersion($DBversion) ) { 01:14 rangi bug 01:14 rangi ah ha 01:14 wahanui i already had it that way, rangi. 01:14 rangi hmm, the way koha knows it should do an update is when the version number in the syspref is lower than the one in Koha.pm 01:14 dpk1 Restarted mysqld just to make sure it had not cached something erroneously. 01:13 rangi hmm, the way koha knows it should do an update is when the version number in the syspref is lower than the one in Koha.pm 01:13 dpk1 No. 01:13 rangi looks good, are you running with plack or anything like that? 01:12 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=15086 minor, P5 - low, ---, mtompset, Pushed to Stable , Creators layout and template sql has warnings 01:12 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16402 critical, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Stable , DB structure cannot be loaded in MySQL 5.7 01:12 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16170 normal, P5 - low, ---, m.de.rooy, Pushed to Stable , Pseudo foreign key in Items 01:12 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16041 normal, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Stable , StaffAuthorisedValueImages & AuthorisedValueImages preferences - impact on search performance 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.07.000 done (Koha 3.22.7) 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.06.005 done (Bug 15086 - Creators layout and template sql has warnings) 01:12 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16217 normal, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Stable , Notice' names may have diverged 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.06.004 done (Bug 16402: Fix DB structure to work on MySQL 5.7) 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.06.003 done (Bug 16170 - Add FK for biblionumber in items) 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.06.002 done (Bug 16041 - StaffAuthorisedValueImages & AuthorisedValueImages preferences - impact on search performance) 01:12 dpk1 The system preference AuthorisedValueImages or StaffAuthorisedValueImages could be turned off if you are not aware of this feature 01:12 dpk1 At least one authorised value has an icon defined (imageurl) 01:12 dpk1 Upgrade to 3.22.06.001 done (Bug 16217 - Notice' names may have diverged) 01:12 dpk1 root@library:/var/lib/mysql.dumps# /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/data/mysql/updatedatabase.pl 01:11 rangi does the last db update, update the version number? 01:08 dpk1 Hello. I could use some help. Was upgrading Koha 3.22.06 to 3.22.07 using debian packages on debian and all looked fine, but when trying to login to the admin interface, I am thrown at the installer. The DB update script appears to have run but logfile (intranet-error.log) says the database needs updating. Rerunning updatedatabase.pl from commandline produces no indication of errors or further updates. Any ideas?