Time  Nick        Message
23:59 Francesca   hello!
23:58 * Francesca waves
22:13 timmmy      great! thanks!
22:11 wizzyrea    or that
22:11 eythian     run:  dpkg -L koha-common | grep xslt
22:11 wizzyrea    /usr/share/koha/opac/htdocs/opac-tmpl/bootstrap/en/xslt/MARC21slim2OPACDetail.xsl for example
22:10 timmmy      according to http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Debian
22:09 wizzyrea    how did you install Koha?
22:06 timmmy      Hi.  Can someone help me find the XSLT files?
21:38 drojf       eythian:  there is this "filemaker -- the missing manual" book. horrible people telling you all the time how great filemaker is and how great you are for using filemaker and once in a while explaining things. maybe you would like to do "the missing 20% of ES docuentation" while you're working on the rest ;)
21:36 magnuse     sounds like fun
21:31 eythian     ES is one of those tricky projects that is 80% documented. It always seems to explain everything except that one thing that your case really needs.
21:29 * magnuse   should get around to reading that bok about es
21:29 eythian     e.g. counting the number of records that match (still unsure how I'm going to implement that.)
21:28 eythian     I suppose it does have different requirements
21:28 eythian     yeah
21:27 magnuse     eythian: is handled = is handled in koha-with-zebra?
21:26 magnuse     special cases for all the things!
21:24 eythian     )
21:24 eythian     (I did discover that the way authority search is handled is naturally totally different to the way normal search is handled. That is very annoying to me.
21:23 * magnuse   too
21:22 wizzyrea    sadface
21:21 eythian     in es
21:21 eythian     aww, I've got to go back to doing terrible SAML work today. I was so close to having basic authority searching working properly
21:13 mveron      :-)
21:13 rangi       cya mveron
21:12 * mveron    says good night / daytime / worldtime to everybody
21:12 eythian     kivilahtio: you're going to have to have more patience.
21:09 magnuse     kia ora eythian
21:08 cait        morning eythian
21:07 wahanui     salut, eythian
21:07 eythian     hi
21:04 cait        :)
21:04 magnuse     :-)
21:04 rangi       years of practice
21:03 cait        very successfully too :)
21:02 magnuse     rangi++ for shooting down some ebsco-related fud on linkedin
21:01 magnuse     hiya rangi
20:49 rangi       hi magnuse
20:48 * magnuse   waves
20:19 rangi       back
19:57 * cait      waves
19:29 mveron      drojf:Ok, will do...
19:27 drojf       if somebody wants to have more discussion they will probably let you know ;)
19:27 drojf       hi mveron. now that you added a patch you should switch it to needs signoff
19:20 * rangi     has to leave soon to take kids to school but will read back
19:20 rangi       whats holding it up?
19:17 huginn      04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11400 trivial, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, In Discussion , Show "Login as a different user" instead of "Logout" if not enough premissions
19:17 * mveron    would like to see Bug 11400 "Out of discussion" :-)
19:15 * mveron    waves
18:34 * cait      waves
18:33 magnuse     hehe
18:32 barton      not sure who would win in a fight.
18:32 barton      magnuse: chenneling wikipedia ;-)
18:31 magnuse     barton: channeling Odin?
18:30 wahanui     hey, magnuse
18:30 magnuse     bag: HI
18:12 drojf       kivilahtio: can you elaborate a little on what the plans are for the koha party in may?
18:03 bag         morning
16:41 huginn      mveron: The current temperature in Wetter Allschwil, Allschwil, Switzerland is 1.7°C (5:41 PM CET on February 18, 2015). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 72%. Dew Point: -3.0°C. Windchill: 2.0°C. Pressure: 30.60 in 1036 hPa (Steady).
16:41 mveron      @wunder Allschwil
16:41 barton      I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, yet more anxious am I for Munin.
16:39 huginn      barton: The operation succeeded.
16:39 barton      @later tell dcook  never mind ... the library in question is still on 3.12 with a lot of custom code. I can't replicate the issue anywhere else.
16:38 barton      tcohen: never mind ... the library in question is still on 3.12 with a lot of custom code. I can't replicate the issue anywhere else.
16:13 huginn      barton: The operation succeeded.
16:13 barton      @later tell dcook strengeness with keyword search:  'A spool of blue thread', which fails, but 'spool of blue thread' succeeds... but when I specify title -- search.pl?idx=ti&q=A+Spool+of+Blue+Thread I get results. tcohen looked at etc/zebradb/lang_defs/en/sort-string-utf.chr and asked me to @later you on it.
16:10 barton      tcohen: will do.
16:02 tcohen      barton: please put a @later for dcook with the situation
16:02 tcohen      heh, not that bad
16:01 barton      zebra docs: where angels fear to tread.
16:01 reiveune    bye
15:57 * tcohen    is reading the zebra docs for map files
15:55 barton      map (^A\s)      @
15:55 barton      map (^a\s)      @
15:53 barton      tcohen: I'll take a look.
15:52 tcohen      map (^A\s)      @ ?
15:52 tcohen      What do u have in etc/zebradb/lang_defs/en/sort-string-utf.chr for A?
15:50 barton      Other searches using articles, such as 'The Help' are successful.
15:49 barton      this happens in both OPAC and staff client.
15:49 barton      morning tcohen!
15:48 barton      If I specify title: search.pl?idx=ti&q=A+Spool+of+Blue+Thread&op=and&idx=kw ... I get results as well.
15:48 tcohen      morning barton
15:48 barton      I have a library who is trying to  do a keyword search for 'A spool of blue thread', which fails, but 'spool of blue thread' succeeds.
15:43 barton      good morning, #koha
15:42 fridolin    see u
15:18 * tcohen    is tempted to remove the "CREATE USER.." part for the --use-db switch of koha-create, it makes no sense. At all
15:17 tcohen      back
14:46 Shane-S     p.s. found it, under admin > basic > authorized values
14:46 Shane-S     is it quite or am I connected to nothing?
14:21 Shane-S     choose...but nothing is listed, where do I populate that field at in the admin side?
14:21 Shane-S     quick question...on an item the damage status says
13:24 tcohen      hi Joubu
13:19 huginn      Joubu: The operation succeeded.
13:19 Joubu       @later tell khall patch submited on bug 13726 ;)
12:42 magnuse     hola tcohen
12:28 tcohen      morning
10:24 BobB        also at Administration/Circulation and Fines Rules there are default holds policies on two places on that page, if they have been populated
10:23 bigbrovar   BobB: Thanks
10:23 BobB        check the Global System Preferences at Circulation/Holds Policy
10:21 bigbrovar   I just have to find that settings :)
10:21 bigbrovar   BobB: yeah I think thats it
10:21 BobB        i.e. if the borrower and item are in different branches, a hold might not be allowed
10:21 bigbrovar   ok... or could there be a setting preventing a patron from one branch from placing on hold an item from another branch
10:21 BobB        there is also a system preference, iirc, that allows holds on other branches
10:20 BobB        then I would compare the issuing rules for the different branches
10:20 bigbrovar   I think its because they are from different branches
10:20 bigbrovar   it is same items.. same categories .. no fines at all
10:20 BobB        or have oustanding fines beyond their limit?
10:19 bigbrovar   yes.. it but different branches
10:19 BobB        the items are not 'Not for Loan' and the borrowers have not reached their 'holds' limit?
10:19 BobB        bigbrovar, are the borrowers in the same category at the same branch, trying to reserve the same items?
10:02 bigbrovar   I checked the circulation rules and all seem fine.. like I said but patrons are from same categories
10:01 bigbrovar   Hi guys, I noticed that some patrons in koha (3.16 debian packages) are unable to place items on hold.. while others (in same categories ) are able to. what could be wrong?
10:01 mveron      Thanks, magnuse :-)
10:00 magnuse     mveron: yes
09:55 mveron      Question regarding "Commands provided by the Debian packages": Do they work on Ubuntu as well? - http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Commands_provided_by_the_Debian_packages
09:54 mveron      hi #koha
09:36 magnuse     i'm sure noone would object to a patch that makes data validation possible :-)
09:35 magnuse     :-)
09:33 brinxmat    magnuse: "we tend to assume data will be entered by people who know what they are doing", come on, it's me you're talking to :D
09:32 magnuse     it's the sort of thing where i think we tend to assume data will be entered by people who know what they are doing :-)
09:31 magnuse     not that i know of, but i might have missed it
09:31 brinxmat    magnuse: has there been an effort to provide validation for data entry in these?
09:30 * rangi     heads to sleep
09:30 magnuse     brinxmat: yeah, there are lots of authorized values that have to be present for koha to work properly
09:28 rangi       and of course i was talking about stand alone perl devs not docker anyway, i dont know anyone who isnt doing virtualisation of some sort, be it container based or heavier like xen or kvm
09:27 brinxmat    magnuse: I'm assuming there are authorized values that have special status in Koha, i.e. the categories are not just arbitrary names, is this correct?
09:25 akafred     But we're mostly using Docker for other benefits - e g we can test a new Koha-in-docker image (with updated packages) before pushing to production - and be more confident everything keeps working. Also we can move dockerized applications between servers, and even run applications with conflicting requirements.
09:25 rangi       personally im happy that debian security exists, and am more than willing to have their help
09:25 brinxmat    magnuse: spot on
09:24 fridolin    akafred: secure indeed
09:23 rangi       akafred: sure as long as you are still using the packaged modules, not compiling from source and then forgetting to update them
09:23 magnuse     brinxmat: nope, you can't say e.g. "this authorized value should only contain integers"
09:22 akafred     I would say Koha in Docker increases security. The host needs a lot less packages (Koha & dependencies), and the guest (inside Docker) has limited access to the host and doesn't even run ssh etc.
09:22 brinxmat    Question regarding authorized values: Does the interface provide any method of validating input?
09:18 rangi       and have many more eyes on them
09:18 rangi       it's only fine if you want to monitor cpan for all the updates (especially security) personally id much rather get the modules as part of a distribution
09:17 rangi       standalone perl env
09:16 fridolin    rangi: which solution is fine ?
09:15 rangi       as would the fedora team if they were packaged as rpm
09:15 rangi       personally i like the fact that debian-security keep an eye on them
09:15 akafred     ah cool, Docker is sort of a nicer packaging around e.g lxc
09:14 rangi       fridolin: that's fine if you want to be in charge of monitoring all the security updates on all the modules in there
09:12 fridolin    akafred: we are using LXC in local for dev and production, also Ubuntu for host and Debian for guest
09:10 fridolin    magnuse: I dont know this, maybe good indeed
09:05 brinxmat    hei magnuse
09:04 fridolin    since perl is a source code, it is not linked to the OS
09:04 magnuse     fridolin: would something like https://metacpan.org/pod/Pinto be relevant?
09:02 akafred     kivilahtio: ^^^^
09:02 fridolin    magnuse: all dependances in /usr/local/share/perl
09:01 magnuse     fridolin: what do you mean by "standalone perl env"?
09:01 akafred     At OPL we're putting Koha in Docker. Inside Docker it's debian, but outside it is ubuntu (but could be redhat or centos or anything that runs Docker).
09:01 magnuse     hei brinxmat
08:47 rangi       i think getting the modules packaged as rpm would benefit more than just koha users, so is a worthy thing to do, but i dont have time to do that
08:45 rangi       etc
08:45 rangi       https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=chrisc@catalyst.net.nz
08:45 rangi       https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=robin@catalyst.net.nz
08:45 fridolin    but I think we should work on a standalone perl env for Koha
08:44 rangi       just like we have been doing with debian
08:44 fridolin    kivilahtio: I would like to make it work, I think it is possible
08:44 rangi       and get them into fedora
08:44 rangi       if they really wanted to run on an rpm based distro, they should package the modules
08:42 kivilahtio  I prefer apt-get upgrade :)
08:42 kivilahtio  rangi: So upgrade those :)
08:42 kivilahtio  rangi: Yeah, we also run Koha separated on ~7 virtual servers
08:37 rangi       multiply that by a few servers and yeah .. who needs that headache
08:36 rangi       for 100+ modules, thats a lot of work
08:35 rangi       and upgrade for security
08:35 rangi       its up to you, to monitor all of those modules
08:35 rangi       its just like on any system you have installed from cpan on
08:35 rangi       but it's significantly more work
08:35 kivilahtio  ok
08:35 rangi       none of them are impossible to install koha on, ive run it on all 3
08:34 rangi       centos is rhel without the paid for support, but also because its community driven, people package for it too
08:34 rangi       its not two years its longer for rhel
08:34 kivilahtio  rangi: With a delay of 2 years
08:34 rangi       or longer
08:33 kivilahtio  rangi: You mean the new Perl modules we use are becoming available for RedHat in two years?
08:33 kivilahtio  rangi: I don't quite follow what does it have to do with running Koha?
08:33 rangi       and long release cycle
08:33 kivilahtio  fridolin: so you think 100% NO :) that is good :)
08:33 rangi       redhat releases are like ubuntu lts .. except even more focused on stability
08:32 rangi       but mariadb, etc are packaged
08:32 rangi       a lot of the perl modules are packaged, quite a few still arent
08:31 rangi       fedora does 6 monthly releases just like ubuntu, its mostly up to date
08:31 kivilahtio  it looks like verything must be compiled from hte source, even the Perl modules
08:31 gaetan_B    hello
08:31 kivilahtio  like packages are aoutdated? or hte RedHat is outdated?
08:30 kivilahtio  rangi: and neither does theirs. Can you tell me any details?
08:30 kivilahtio  rangi: doesnt save my day :)
08:30 kivilahtio  rangi: fedora and centos
08:30 rangi       its old everything
08:29 rangi       redhat .. not so much
08:29 kivilahtio  rangi: ok
08:29 rangi       that's doable
08:29 rangi       centos or fedora is one thing
08:29 kivilahtio  on Ubuntu 14.04 :)
08:28 fridolin    kivilahtio: on a RedHat ?
08:28 kivilahtio  was quite easy :)
08:28 kivilahtio  fridolin: I installed MAriaDB I had to install dependencies outside of the koha-dependecies -package, but I still sintalled everything from packages
08:28 fridolin    we have often a demand for CentOS of Fedora
08:27 Joubu       just something to do with my mind
08:27 fridolin    all dependances of Koha are managed in Debian packages
08:27 kivilahtio  well that is a good recommendation
08:27 fridolin    kivilahtio: unfortunaly 100% NO
08:26 kivilahtio  hi fridolin!
08:26 kivilahtio  Joubu:  heh, has he got something to do with Koha?
08:26 fridolin    hie all
08:26 Joubu       No but I know Richard Tonga from Washington
08:24 kivilahtio  thanks guys. BTW do you know anyone Richard Washington from Tonga?
08:23 drojf       heh
08:22 kivilahtio  Joubu:  thanks, I read it and it looks like something I don't want to be a part of
08:22 Joubu       But it looks outdated
08:22 Joubu       http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_on_Redhat_Enterprise_6
08:22 Joubu       kivilahtio: did you have a look at the wiki page?
08:22 drojf       but they have it for everything else and won't change all that for you
08:22 kivilahtio  afaik nobody needs that :)
08:21 kivilahtio  but you can get vendor support for ubuntu as well
08:21 drojf       yup
08:21 kivilahtio  they clami that they get vendor support
08:21 drojf       a contract with an outside support company, i think
08:21 kivilahtio  there must be something because they insist on it
08:21 kivilahtio  drojf:, Joubu: I wonder what is the benefit of using RedHat over Debian/Ubuntu?
08:19 drojf       lolnope
08:19 kivilahtio  drojf: The point here is that we are forming a nationwide cooperation of Koha developers. And it might be that some day I have to update their Koha
08:19 drojf       kivilahtio: the university of applied sciences in wildau (in germany, close to berlin) has redhat or centos, they provide koha for the local public library. i tried hard to convince them to use debian, but they also have an it department that insisted on doing it that way. it works, but it must be horrible to update ;)
08:17 kivilahtio  it doesnät work :)
08:17 kivilahtio  could I say you cannot install Koha on RedHat :)
08:16 kivilahtio  Isn't RedHat like 50% proprietary?
08:16 kivilahtio  yeah fridolin! Can we recommend RedHat as a OS for Koha?
08:15 Joubu       fridolin: do you remember?
08:15 Joubu       If I remember correctly, fridolin did the install
08:15 kivilahtio  Joubu: Just looking for ammunition for my arguments
08:15 kivilahtio  Joubu: I am trying to convince those RedHat peeps to install Ubuntu or Debian
08:14 Joubu       I think we had a partner using RedHat, but it was a nightmare to install Koha on it
08:13 kivilahtio  Oulu libraries have some tight bindings with their local IT support provider and they only provide RedHat linux
08:13 kivilahtio  Joubu: Do you know of anyone using Koha with RedHat?
08:08 huginn      Joubu: The operation succeeded.
08:08 Joubu       @later tell pianohacker the most important is not the number of patches but their readability :)
08:08 huginn      Joubu: The operation succeeded.
08:08 Joubu       @later tell khall yes got it, thanks!
08:07 wahanui     hi, Joubu
08:07 Joubu       hello
07:57 alex_a      bonjour
07:32 kivilahtio  eythian: *When modifying Items, I don't want to deal with converting perfectly good items-rows to MARC Item representation and then covnerting them back to items-object so it can be saved to DB.
07:32 kivilahtio  eythian: nooooooooooo. I don't want to configure elasticsearch indexes in 4 different places
07:31 kivilahtio  rangi: Fight the FUD man! Just show them what we do :)
07:30 reiveune    hello
06:55 * magnuse   waves
05:43 dcook       And I was just about to answer
05:40 timmmy      I have a brand new default installation.
05:39 timmmy      hello.  where are the XSLT files?
05:35 dcook       thanks for answering my questions, eythian :)
05:35 dcook       later
05:34 eythian     later
05:34 * eythian   heads off
05:26 dcook       I would if it would be beneficial here... but it would require some work to make it worthwhile at the moment
05:25 eythian     heh
05:25 dcook       I keep telling myself that I'll learn to package RPMs for openSUSE, but...
05:24 eythian     or maybe just have a script that separates them out.
05:24 dcook       :)
05:23 eythian     so that koha is treated as upstream and then a separate repo contains the packaging details
05:23 dcook       Cool!
05:23 eythian     I plan one day to separate out the packaging stuff
05:22 dcook       Ah right... I recall you mentioning something about this before
05:22 eythian     so, it doesn't permit putting -1 on the end
05:22 eythian     as there's no separation of debian/ and source, you can't (in theory) update one without updating the upstream version
05:22 eythian     koha is treated as a debian-native package because the debian/ directory is included in the upstream source
05:21 dcook       Stricter?
05:21 eythian     (we used to, then build rules got stricter)
05:21 eythian     one day I'll make it do that
05:21 eythian     well, we don't yet do -1 type stuff
05:20 eythian     oh, I see
05:20 dcook       Which it probably isn't and I'm just overthinking it :p
05:20 dcook       And that * isn't replaced with "-blah"
05:20 dcook       I'd hope that would work
05:20 dcook       In theory
05:19 eythian     would it not be 3.18.*, too
05:19 dcook       Well, let's say you have 3.18.2
05:19 eythian     I don't follow
05:19 dcook       Like "0.4.99-1 and 0.4.99-10"
05:19 dcook       Maybe this is a Debian specific thing..
05:19 dcook       Ah wait.. maybe not
05:19 dcook       Well, apparently "Pin: version 3.18*" will let the automatic upgrades through for minor version updates
05:18 eythian     we just pin it to stop automatic upgrades, so we can do them manually as needed.
05:18 dcook       I'm intrigued by these priorities..
05:18 dcook       https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-apt-get.en.html
05:18 eythian     you might be able to do that, I'm not sure
05:18 dcook       Hmm, I think maybe what I want is... "Pin: version 3.18*" perhaps
05:15 dcook       Hmm..
05:14 eythian     apt-cache policy package is useful for checking what's going on
05:12 eythian     and it'll force that version
05:12 eythian     you can do apt-get install package=1.2.3
05:12 eythian     maybe
05:11 eythian     not sure.
05:11 eythian     hmm
05:11 dcook       just "apt-get install package"?
05:11 wahanui     koha-common is the one you want, the main koha one needs a bit more work (its for setting up a single instance)
05:11 eythian     Pin-Priority: -1
05:11 eythian     Pin: origin "debian.koha-community.org"
05:11 eythian     Package: koha-common
05:11 eythian     $ cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/koha-common
05:11 eythian     yeah
05:11 dcook       Can you still manually update it even though it's pinned?
05:11 dcook       Say you only had one package that wasn't available via another repo
05:11 dcook       Mmm, right. I recall seeing something about priority.
05:10 eythian     well, it's generally the case. However you can do things like use pinning to prioritise another repo.
05:10 dcook       What's the part that mostly isn't?
05:09 eythian     that's mostly right
05:09 dcook       When you pin a package, it doesn't get updated by doing "apt-get upgrade", right?
05:09 eythian     sure
05:09 dcook       eythian: Quick question about Debian packages if you're up for it
04:54 dcook       It's funny because it's true...
04:54 dcook       hehe
04:54 wahanui     okay, eythian.
04:54 eythian     wahanui: irc is also multiplayer notepad
04:54 wahanui     ...but irc is http://irc.koha-community.org/irclog/koha/|a good place to ask question. This week is more quiet that usual because of the Koha Conference...
04:54 eythian     wahanui: irc is multiplayer notepad
04:53 * dcook     should really review some of his shell scripts to double-check their syntax...
04:53 dcook       I think openSUSE uses bash by default..
04:52 dcook       More "bashisms" than I thought
04:52 dcook       Ahhh
04:52 dcook       Hmm, maybe something else is up..
04:50 eythian     well shell scripts should be sh compatible and work fine, or declare /usr/bin/bash
04:50 dcook       I've been converting a lot of my shell scripts to Python scripts lately
04:49 eythian     yeah, just checked a server
04:49 dcook       I must not write as many shell scripts on Debian based systems..
04:49 dcook       Huh..
04:49 dcook       Really?
04:49 dcook       I thought the wheezy I have at home didn't though...
04:49 eythian     squeeze does too
04:49 dcook       Yeah, I just noticed that this Wheezy install I'm using uses dash
04:49 eythian     not sure when debian started doing it
04:49 eythian     I think wheezy already has
04:47 dcook       I thought "dash" was just used in Ubuntu..
04:47 dcook       Has Wheezy always linked "sh" to "dash"?
04:47 dcook       Hmm..
03:55 dcook       I was wondering what they meant when the email said "Secure email" :p
03:51 dcook       The super expensive doctors email you a link to your message
03:50 dcook       Ohh... this one is interesting
03:45 eythian     that's a start
03:45 eythian     well, now I'm sortof getting authority results
03:40 dcook       I am so so glad I'm not in the states
03:39 wizzyrea    dcook: just be glad you're not in the states.
03:39 dcook       It's so easy back in Canada, but here it's all...
03:39 dcook       I just find medical/dental stuff so different in Australia...
03:39 dcook       I'm not going to share the contents of my next phone call. Hopefully it should be more straightforward.
03:38 * dcook     seems to sleep stressfully
03:38 dcook       Hmm, neato
03:38 wizzyrea    unrelated.
03:38 wizzyrea    quite a good singer.
03:38 wizzyrea    i have a high school friend who has/had a tmj ... thing
03:38 dcook       Of course, I've thought about doing all sorts of things really
03:38 eythian     dcook: temporomandibular joint
03:38 * dcook     thought about being a forensic pathologist, so body stuff is more interesting than icky to him
03:37 dcook       wizzyrea: sorry :(
03:37 dcook       eythian: TMJ?
03:37 eythian     a mouthguard thing for a few weeks sorted it.
03:37 wizzyrea    I just got a squicky feeling reading that.
03:37 dcook       Although brace wire breakage sucks...
03:37 eythian     dcook: ah yeah, I had that and it was causing my TMJ to screw up.
03:37 dcook       wizzyrea: As per my earlier post about blood and needles, I actually kind of like teeth pulling and stuff as well. Very satisfying sound when they come out.
03:36 dcook       eythian ^
03:36 dcook       That could be a space saver
03:36 wizzyrea    I am totally lost in the world of teeth straightening.
03:36 eythian     in the form of a tooth
03:36 dcook       I foresee always needing an applicance
03:36 eythian     appliance, like a washing machine?
03:36 dcook       Alas, I'm a bruxist...
03:36 * dcook     just needs someone to take a mould of his teeth, create a super thick plastic appliance, and give it to him with a minimum of fuss
03:36 eythian     that's how they work :)
03:36 eythian     now I no longer need one.
03:36 eythian     I used to have an orthodontist
03:36 eythian     no, it probably won't. But if it points out that they shouldn't be emailing medical stuff...
03:35 dcook       I'm sure the orthodontist could've been more tech savvy in a different life
03:35 * wizzyrea  backs away slowly
03:35 wizzyrea    not that he needs an orthodontist
03:35 * wizzyrea  challenges eythian to try
03:35 wizzyrea    that might not work with an orthodontist.
03:35 eythian     i.e. if I'm sharing passwords or some such
03:35 eythian     usually IT people at other organisations
03:34 wizzyrea    hehehehhehh
03:34 dcook       eythian: Which people?
03:34 * eythian   just asks people for the GPG key, with the assumption they have one. So far two people we've worked with have created one (which is also the number of people I've asked for one.)
03:34 wizzyrea    and use your own.
03:34 dcook       Although now that I think about it... I did help that out with some graphic design stuff a few years ago when I had some time to kill
03:34 wizzyrea    but it's pretty easy to get a google apps domain
03:34 wizzyrea    mmm those two things don't necessarily go together
03:34 dcook       Mind you, the website is buggy so that's... not good
03:33 dcook       wizzyrea: The weird thing with the hotmail is that they have someone hosting a website for them. You'd think that they'd have email as well..
03:33 dcook       But man...
03:33 dcook       Fortunately, we found the documents and didn't need replacements :p
03:33 wizzyrea    heh.
03:33 dcook       And I never heard from them again...
03:33 dcook       I emailed them being like "Maybe you should use SSL and have the ability to upload documents that way, as email isn't a secure way of transferring documents, especially credit card details, at all."
03:32 wizzyrea    <shudder>
03:32 dcook       ^
03:32 wizzyrea    or government websites that don't use SSL
03:32 dcook       Oh man, that reminds me of so many different courts that want you to email your credit card details...
03:32 wizzyrea    these are better questions to be asking yourself.
03:31 dcook       Mind you, why are you emailing people with medical info...
03:31 dcook       It's medical info!
03:31 wizzyrea    judging people based on their email domain. tsk.
03:31 eythian     haha
03:30 dcook       Even the one I like uses a hotmail address :p
03:30 dcook       Hmm, orthodontists seem sketchy...
03:30 dcook       Thanks chrisvella_ :)
03:12 chrisvella_ good message on the bug report dcook
03:10 chrisvella_ basically submit to the botnet or spend your days filling in impossible cap's
03:09 chrisvella_ and using a google account and stuff
03:09 chrisvella_ but I believe using adblockers and stuff reduces your likelihood of being marked as "human"
03:08 chrisvella_ hahaha
03:08 wizzyrea    j/k
03:08 * wizzyrea  totes quotes you
03:08 chrisvella_ don't quote me on this
03:07 chrisvella_ idk if its still as bad. but it was super anti-competitive at first
03:07 wizzyrea    sounded pretty eesh though
03:06 wizzyrea    don't think I ever had the pleasure of actually having to use one, I only read about it.
03:06 chrisvella_ they*
03:06 chrisvella_ there are terrible. the capturas were almost impossible on firefox when that was implemented
03:05 wizzyrea    ikr
03:05 chrisvella_ f googles implementation of that.
03:05 wizzyrea    google had a thing where they could tell if you were a human or bot just by the way you used the page - which sounds like deep dirty magic to me but...
03:04 wizzyrea    yep, accessible bot-proofing is a challenge.
03:03 chrisvella_ much more likely to have user interaction there
03:02 chrisvella_ but then this screen reader issue becomes a bigger problem
03:01 chrisvella_ cool
03:01 wizzyrea    I don't see why a negcap wouldn't work there.
03:01 wizzyrea    not just that, it's just not terribly usable.
03:00 dcook       Which reminds me I should go for lunch because if I don't go now I'll never go
03:00 dcook       Too busy for my own (and everyone else's) good
03:00 dcook       wizzyrea: Yeah, I think there might be an issue with the cardnumber... I think I fixed it locally but I can't recall what it is now
03:00 chrisvella_ grosssss dcook :)
03:00 * dcook     prefers white text on a black background in many cases
03:00 dcook       Yeah, the "make this text bigger" "change these colurs" can be tough... although I see the point
03:00 chrisvella_ wizzyrea do you think a negcap would work there?
02:59 wizzyrea    it needs a going over, generally.
02:59 chrisvella_ yea its an interesting topic
02:59 wizzyrea    in fact
02:59 wizzyrea    we do have a plain bad captcha on the selfreg page
02:59 chrisvella_ I find its usually some arbitrary "make this text bigger" "make that brighter"
02:59 dcook       I have a few friends who know a lot about accessibility, so I like to grill them for info :p
02:58 chrisvella_ hahaha exactly
02:58 dcook       But not always the expertise :/
02:58 chrisvella_ we have had to deal with similar things
02:58 chrisvella_ the intention always seems to be there
02:58 dcook       At least to a certain degree, and probably to a larger degree than anything we cook up would be
02:57 dcook       But something in the back of my mind tells me that they try to keep accessibility in mind
02:57 dcook       Well, I don't have any examples off my head, so I should've probably said nothing :p
02:57 chrisvella_ how so?
02:57 dcook       Actually, I think using Bootstrap has helped with that
02:56 chrisvella_ fair enough
02:56 dcook       Well, we have quite a few government clients, so accessibility is always on the radar
02:56 chrisvella_ amazing pickup
02:55 dcook       And the boss mentioned the screen reader thing
02:55 dcook       I was just looking to backport it to 3.14
02:55 dcook       Not that I know of
02:55 dcook       ;)
02:55 chrisvella_ has anyone had issues with the negcap?
02:54 chrisvella_ googled*
02:54 chrisvella_ hahaha dcook. just google "FSOG"
02:53 rangi       since the rest of the interface can be
02:53 dcook       ^
02:53 rangi       and put it in the template in a way that's translatable
02:53 chrisvella_ "donotfillmein"
02:53 * dcook     nods
02:53 rangi       yep
02:53 chrisvella_ as said above lets make the class/div name really obvious
02:53 dcook       Depends on how many times the spammers request FSOG, I guess
02:53 chrisvella_ like purchase suggestions are not a high value target
02:53 dcook       Even in the screen reader case, most people would probably leave it blank, so probably not much of an issue
02:52 chrisvella_ exactly
02:52 dcook       But yeah, probably not very targetedly
02:52 dcook       We've had a few of our Kohas spammed pretty hard :/
02:52 chrisvella_ the only potential issue is if koha becomes enough of a target for spammers
02:52 chrisvella_ this screen reader issue has totally surprised me, but I think its a minor issue all things considered
02:51 dcook       Ah yeah, I seem to recall a pretty bad one there
02:51 rangi       we should fix that
02:51 rangi       i think we have a plain bad captcha on the borrwer self reg page
02:51 chrisvella_ I think its the right solution for koha
02:51 dcook       Btw, in general, I'm totally in favour of the negcap. I hate captchas.
02:51 dcook       I think so?
02:50 dcook       Ultimately, even the aria stuff could be circumvented. But pretty much anything can be with enough time and effort.
02:50 chrisvella_ we have only implemented the negcap for the purchase suggestions page right?
02:50 chrisvella_ yea agreed
02:50 dcook       hehe
02:49 rangi       certainly there's more non english people than people using screen readers
02:49 dcook       rangi: Yeah, the English language stuff isn't a good alternative
02:49 dcook       Yeah, I'm down with the aria stuff
02:49 rangi       yeah which imho is a way worse problem
02:49 mtj         chrisvella_'s aria page looks good
02:49 dcook       "The biggest problem with logic questions is that they’re specific to a language, usually English."
02:48 * dcook     looks again
02:48 rangi       i meant the ones they suggest on that page as possible alternatives :)
02:48 dcook       rangi: Yeah, they mention that on that visionaustralia page I linked
02:48 rangi       i like the neg captcha because it doesn't bank on people's english comprehension level
02:48 dcook       chrisvella_: Oh... that's cool
02:47 rangi       because all the alternatives they suggest assume everyone speaks english
02:46 chrisvella_ http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-hidden dcook mtj
02:46 rangi       it's funny
02:46 mtj         i was just thinking of removing the text 'negcap'
02:45 dcook       I imagine with a label of "negcap", most people would probably leave it empty anyway
02:45 dcook       chrisvella_: true true
02:45 dcook       rangi: totes
02:45 dcook       mtj: Hmm?
02:44 rangi       and problem still way more accesible than an actual captcha
02:44 chrisvella_ it does sound like a downside for accessibility but I doubt its going to be an issue for 99.99% of people
02:44 mtj         dcook: negcap seems to have a trivial fix?
02:43 chrisvella_ hmmm thats interesting
02:42 dcook       Just looking at this site now: http://www.visionaustralia.org/living-with-low-vision/learning-to-live-independently/using-technology-and-computers/blog---accessibility-and-assistive-technology-blog/blog/accessibility-blog/2014/12/09/effective-alternatives-to-inaccessible-captchas
02:42 dcook       chrisvella_ I was just going to pose the same Q to you ;)
02:41 chrisvella_ yea dcook I am
02:41 mtj         hmm, ok
02:37 dcook       I'm doing some more reading about it atm
02:37 dcook       It looks like screen readers would read out that field :/
02:37 dcook       The boss raised the query about the negative captcha and screen readers
02:37 mtj         hi dcook, whats the Q?
02:33 huginn      04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3144 normal, P5 - low, ---, mjr, Pushed to Stable , anti-spam for opac-suggestions
02:33 dcook       Actually, mtj, you might be the right person to talk to about bug 3144...
02:32 mtj         add some wildcards to the inital query, and try again... then show those results as some suggested search queries
02:30 mtj         eythian: yeah, thats the sensible way
02:29 dcook       chrisvella_: Are you still about?
02:29 eythian     so pretty much the same as a fuzzy search
02:29 eythian     well, I was thinking it'd work from the current database
02:29 mtj         the way i imagine it working is a pretty useless way
02:28 mtj         different results, depending on the current lang.
02:27 eythian     yeah
02:25 mtj         its a tricky feature to spec huh.. the results will always be a bit subjective
02:25 mtj         ah nice
02:24 eythian     *not
02:24 eythian     I'm no 100% sure though
02:24 eythian     it's something we could possibly implement with elasticsearch, I think
02:23 mtj         https://github.com/wiggin/Google-did-you-mean
02:23 mtj         hey, this is kinda curious..
02:23 mtj         hi all
02:15 eythian     anybody need a petabyte of online storage? rsync.net is doing a referral program where I'll get a $24,000 bonus, which would be nice.
02:14 dcook       eythian: Ouch!
02:06 eythian     hah, so I think my dumb query mistake yesterday was putting _any when I meant _all
00:04 dcook       eythian: :p