Time Nick Message 23:59 Francesca hello! 23:58 * Francesca waves 22:13 timmmy great! thanks! 22:11 wizzyrea or that 22:11 eythian run: dpkg -L koha-common | grep xslt 22:11 wizzyrea /usr/share/koha/opac/htdocs/opac-tmpl/bootstrap/en/xslt/MARC21slim2OPACDetail.xsl for example 22:10 timmmy according to http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Debian 22:09 wizzyrea how did you install Koha? 22:06 timmmy Hi. Can someone help me find the XSLT files? 21:38 drojf eythian: there is this "filemaker -- the missing manual" book. horrible people telling you all the time how great filemaker is and how great you are for using filemaker and once in a while explaining things. maybe you would like to do "the missing 20% of ES docuentation" while you're working on the rest ;) 21:36 magnuse sounds like fun 21:31 eythian ES is one of those tricky projects that is 80% documented. It always seems to explain everything except that one thing that your case really needs. 21:29 * magnuse should get around to reading that bok about es 21:29 eythian e.g. counting the number of records that match (still unsure how I'm going to implement that.) 21:28 eythian I suppose it does have different requirements 21:28 eythian yeah 21:27 magnuse eythian: is handled = is handled in koha-with-zebra? 21:26 magnuse special cases for all the things! 21:24 eythian ) 21:24 eythian (I did discover that the way authority search is handled is naturally totally different to the way normal search is handled. That is very annoying to me. 21:23 * magnuse too 21:22 wizzyrea sadface 21:21 eythian in es 21:21 eythian aww, I've got to go back to doing terrible SAML work today. I was so close to having basic authority searching working properly 21:13 mveron :-) 21:13 rangi cya mveron 21:12 * mveron says good night / daytime / worldtime to everybody 21:12 eythian kivilahtio: you're going to have to have more patience. 21:09 magnuse kia ora eythian 21:08 cait morning eythian 21:07 wahanui salut, eythian 21:07 eythian hi 21:04 cait :) 21:04 magnuse :-) 21:04 rangi years of practice 21:03 cait very successfully too :) 21:02 magnuse rangi++ for shooting down some ebsco-related fud on linkedin 21:01 magnuse hiya rangi 20:49 rangi hi magnuse 20:48 * magnuse waves 20:19 rangi back 19:57 * cait waves 19:29 mveron drojf:Ok, will do... 19:27 drojf if somebody wants to have more discussion they will probably let you know ;) 19:27 drojf hi mveron. now that you added a patch you should switch it to needs signoff 19:20 * rangi has to leave soon to take kids to school but will read back 19:20 rangi whats holding it up? 19:17 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11400 trivial, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, In Discussion , Show "Login as a different user" instead of "Logout" if not enough premissions 19:17 * mveron would like to see Bug 11400 "Out of discussion" :-) 19:15 * mveron waves 18:34 * cait waves 18:33 magnuse hehe 18:32 barton not sure who would win in a fight. 18:32 barton magnuse: chenneling wikipedia ;-) 18:31 magnuse barton: channeling Odin? 18:30 wahanui hey, magnuse 18:30 magnuse bag: HI 18:12 drojf kivilahtio: can you elaborate a little on what the plans are for the koha party in may? 18:03 bag morning 16:41 huginn mveron: The current temperature in Wetter Allschwil, Allschwil, Switzerland is 1.7°C (5:41 PM CET on February 18, 2015). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 72%. Dew Point: -3.0°C. Windchill: 2.0°C. Pressure: 30.60 in 1036 hPa (Steady). 16:41 mveron @wunder Allschwil 16:41 barton I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, yet more anxious am I for Munin. 16:39 huginn barton: The operation succeeded. 16:39 barton @later tell dcook never mind ... the library in question is still on 3.12 with a lot of custom code. I can't replicate the issue anywhere else. 16:38 barton tcohen: never mind ... the library in question is still on 3.12 with a lot of custom code. I can't replicate the issue anywhere else. 16:13 huginn barton: The operation succeeded. 16:13 barton @later tell dcook strengeness with keyword search: 'A spool of blue thread', which fails, but 'spool of blue thread' succeeds... but when I specify title -- search.pl?idx=ti&q=A+Spool+of+Blue+Thread I get results. tcohen looked at etc/zebradb/lang_defs/en/sort-string-utf.chr and asked me to @later you on it. 16:10 barton tcohen: will do. 16:02 tcohen barton: please put a @later for dcook with the situation 16:02 tcohen heh, not that bad 16:01 barton zebra docs: where angels fear to tread. 16:01 reiveune bye 15:57 * tcohen is reading the zebra docs for map files 15:55 barton map (^A\s) @ 15:55 barton map (^a\s) @ 15:53 barton tcohen: I'll take a look. 15:52 tcohen map (^A\s) @ ? 15:52 tcohen What do u have in etc/zebradb/lang_defs/en/sort-string-utf.chr for A? 15:50 barton Other searches using articles, such as 'The Help' are successful. 15:49 barton this happens in both OPAC and staff client. 15:49 barton morning tcohen! 15:48 barton If I specify title: search.pl?idx=ti&q=A+Spool+of+Blue+Thread&op=and&idx=kw ... I get results as well. 15:48 tcohen morning barton 15:48 barton I have a library who is trying to do a keyword search for 'A spool of blue thread', which fails, but 'spool of blue thread' succeeds. 15:43 barton good morning, #koha 15:42 fridolin see u 15:18 * tcohen is tempted to remove the "CREATE USER.." part for the --use-db switch of koha-create, it makes no sense. At all 15:17 tcohen back 14:46 Shane-S p.s. found it, under admin > basic > authorized values 14:46 Shane-S is it quite or am I connected to nothing? 14:21 Shane-S choose...but nothing is listed, where do I populate that field at in the admin side? 14:21 Shane-S quick question...on an item the damage status says 13:24 tcohen hi Joubu 13:19 huginn Joubu: The operation succeeded. 13:19 Joubu @later tell khall patch submited on bug 13726 ;) 12:42 magnuse hola tcohen 12:28 tcohen morning 10:24 BobB also at Administration/Circulation and Fines Rules there are default holds policies on two places on that page, if they have been populated 10:23 bigbrovar BobB: Thanks 10:23 BobB check the Global System Preferences at Circulation/Holds Policy 10:21 bigbrovar I just have to find that settings :) 10:21 bigbrovar BobB: yeah I think thats it 10:21 BobB i.e. if the borrower and item are in different branches, a hold might not be allowed 10:21 bigbrovar ok... or could there be a setting preventing a patron from one branch from placing on hold an item from another branch 10:21 BobB there is also a system preference, iirc, that allows holds on other branches 10:20 BobB then I would compare the issuing rules for the different branches 10:20 bigbrovar I think its because they are from different branches 10:20 bigbrovar it is same items.. same categories .. no fines at all 10:20 BobB or have oustanding fines beyond their limit? 10:19 bigbrovar yes.. it but different branches 10:19 BobB the items are not 'Not for Loan' and the borrowers have not reached their 'holds' limit? 10:19 BobB bigbrovar, are the borrowers in the same category at the same branch, trying to reserve the same items? 10:02 bigbrovar I checked the circulation rules and all seem fine.. like I said but patrons are from same categories 10:01 bigbrovar Hi guys, I noticed that some patrons in koha (3.16 debian packages) are unable to place items on hold.. while others (in same categories ) are able to. what could be wrong? 10:01 mveron Thanks, magnuse :-) 10:00 magnuse mveron: yes 09:55 mveron Question regarding "Commands provided by the Debian packages": Do they work on Ubuntu as well? - http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Commands_provided_by_the_Debian_packages 09:54 mveron hi #koha 09:36 magnuse i'm sure noone would object to a patch that makes data validation possible :-) 09:35 magnuse :-) 09:33 brinxmat magnuse: "we tend to assume data will be entered by people who know what they are doing", come on, it's me you're talking to :D 09:32 magnuse it's the sort of thing where i think we tend to assume data will be entered by people who know what they are doing :-) 09:31 magnuse not that i know of, but i might have missed it 09:31 brinxmat magnuse: has there been an effort to provide validation for data entry in these? 09:30 * rangi heads to sleep 09:30 magnuse brinxmat: yeah, there are lots of authorized values that have to be present for koha to work properly 09:28 rangi and of course i was talking about stand alone perl devs not docker anyway, i dont know anyone who isnt doing virtualisation of some sort, be it container based or heavier like xen or kvm 09:27 brinxmat magnuse: I'm assuming there are authorized values that have special status in Koha, i.e. the categories are not just arbitrary names, is this correct? 09:25 akafred But we're mostly using Docker for other benefits - e g we can test a new Koha-in-docker image (with updated packages) before pushing to production - and be more confident everything keeps working. Also we can move dockerized applications between servers, and even run applications with conflicting requirements. 09:25 rangi personally im happy that debian security exists, and am more than willing to have their help 09:25 brinxmat magnuse: spot on 09:24 fridolin akafred: secure indeed 09:23 rangi akafred: sure as long as you are still using the packaged modules, not compiling from source and then forgetting to update them 09:23 magnuse brinxmat: nope, you can't say e.g. "this authorized value should only contain integers" 09:22 akafred I would say Koha in Docker increases security. The host needs a lot less packages (Koha & dependencies), and the guest (inside Docker) has limited access to the host and doesn't even run ssh etc. 09:22 brinxmat Question regarding authorized values: Does the interface provide any method of validating input? 09:18 rangi and have many more eyes on them 09:18 rangi it's only fine if you want to monitor cpan for all the updates (especially security) personally id much rather get the modules as part of a distribution 09:17 rangi standalone perl env 09:16 fridolin rangi: which solution is fine ? 09:15 rangi as would the fedora team if they were packaged as rpm 09:15 rangi personally i like the fact that debian-security keep an eye on them 09:15 akafred ah cool, Docker is sort of a nicer packaging around e.g lxc 09:14 rangi fridolin: that's fine if you want to be in charge of monitoring all the security updates on all the modules in there 09:12 fridolin akafred: we are using LXC in local for dev and production, also Ubuntu for host and Debian for guest 09:10 fridolin magnuse: I dont know this, maybe good indeed 09:05 brinxmat hei magnuse 09:04 fridolin since perl is a source code, it is not linked to the OS 09:04 magnuse fridolin: would something like https://metacpan.org/pod/Pinto be relevant? 09:02 akafred kivilahtio: ^^^^ 09:02 fridolin magnuse: all dependances in /usr/local/share/perl 09:01 magnuse fridolin: what do you mean by "standalone perl env"? 09:01 akafred At OPL we're putting Koha in Docker. Inside Docker it's debian, but outside it is ubuntu (but could be redhat or centos or anything that runs Docker). 09:01 magnuse hei brinxmat 08:47 rangi i think getting the modules packaged as rpm would benefit more than just koha users, so is a worthy thing to do, but i dont have time to do that 08:45 rangi etc 08:45 rangi https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=chrisc@catalyst.net.nz 08:45 rangi https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=robin@catalyst.net.nz 08:45 fridolin but I think we should work on a standalone perl env for Koha 08:44 rangi just like we have been doing with debian 08:44 fridolin kivilahtio: I would like to make it work, I think it is possible 08:44 rangi and get them into fedora 08:44 rangi if they really wanted to run on an rpm based distro, they should package the modules 08:42 kivilahtio I prefer apt-get upgrade :) 08:42 kivilahtio rangi: So upgrade those :) 08:42 kivilahtio rangi: Yeah, we also run Koha separated on ~7 virtual servers 08:37 rangi multiply that by a few servers and yeah .. who needs that headache 08:36 rangi for 100+ modules, thats a lot of work 08:35 rangi and upgrade for security 08:35 rangi its up to you, to monitor all of those modules 08:35 rangi its just like on any system you have installed from cpan on 08:35 rangi but it's significantly more work 08:35 kivilahtio ok 08:35 rangi none of them are impossible to install koha on, ive run it on all 3 08:34 rangi centos is rhel without the paid for support, but also because its community driven, people package for it too 08:34 rangi its not two years its longer for rhel 08:34 kivilahtio rangi: With a delay of 2 years 08:34 rangi or longer 08:33 kivilahtio rangi: You mean the new Perl modules we use are becoming available for RedHat in two years? 08:33 kivilahtio rangi: I don't quite follow what does it have to do with running Koha? 08:33 rangi and long release cycle 08:33 kivilahtio fridolin: so you think 100% NO :) that is good :) 08:33 rangi redhat releases are like ubuntu lts .. except even more focused on stability 08:32 rangi but mariadb, etc are packaged 08:32 rangi a lot of the perl modules are packaged, quite a few still arent 08:31 rangi fedora does 6 monthly releases just like ubuntu, its mostly up to date 08:31 kivilahtio it looks like verything must be compiled from hte source, even the Perl modules 08:31 gaetan_B hello 08:31 kivilahtio like packages are aoutdated? or hte RedHat is outdated? 08:30 kivilahtio rangi: and neither does theirs. Can you tell me any details? 08:30 kivilahtio rangi: doesnt save my day :) 08:30 kivilahtio rangi: fedora and centos 08:30 rangi its old everything 08:29 rangi redhat .. not so much 08:29 kivilahtio rangi: ok 08:29 rangi that's doable 08:29 rangi centos or fedora is one thing 08:29 kivilahtio on Ubuntu 14.04 :) 08:28 fridolin kivilahtio: on a RedHat ? 08:28 kivilahtio was quite easy :) 08:28 kivilahtio fridolin: I installed MAriaDB I had to install dependencies outside of the koha-dependecies -package, but I still sintalled everything from packages 08:28 fridolin we have often a demand for CentOS of Fedora 08:27 Joubu just something to do with my mind 08:27 fridolin all dependances of Koha are managed in Debian packages 08:27 kivilahtio well that is a good recommendation 08:27 fridolin kivilahtio: unfortunaly 100% NO 08:26 kivilahtio hi fridolin! 08:26 kivilahtio Joubu: heh, has he got something to do with Koha? 08:26 fridolin hie all 08:26 Joubu No but I know Richard Tonga from Washington 08:24 kivilahtio thanks guys. BTW do you know anyone Richard Washington from Tonga? 08:23 drojf heh 08:22 kivilahtio Joubu: thanks, I read it and it looks like something I don't want to be a part of 08:22 Joubu But it looks outdated 08:22 Joubu http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_on_Redhat_Enterprise_6 08:22 Joubu kivilahtio: did you have a look at the wiki page? 08:22 drojf but they have it for everything else and won't change all that for you 08:22 kivilahtio afaik nobody needs that :) 08:21 kivilahtio but you can get vendor support for ubuntu as well 08:21 drojf yup 08:21 kivilahtio they clami that they get vendor support 08:21 drojf a contract with an outside support company, i think 08:21 kivilahtio there must be something because they insist on it 08:21 kivilahtio drojf:, Joubu: I wonder what is the benefit of using RedHat over Debian/Ubuntu? 08:19 drojf lolnope 08:19 kivilahtio drojf: The point here is that we are forming a nationwide cooperation of Koha developers. And it might be that some day I have to update their Koha 08:19 drojf kivilahtio: the university of applied sciences in wildau (in germany, close to berlin) has redhat or centos, they provide koha for the local public library. i tried hard to convince them to use debian, but they also have an it department that insisted on doing it that way. it works, but it must be horrible to update ;) 08:17 kivilahtio it doesnät work :) 08:17 kivilahtio could I say you cannot install Koha on RedHat :) 08:16 kivilahtio Isn't RedHat like 50% proprietary? 08:16 kivilahtio yeah fridolin! Can we recommend RedHat as a OS for Koha? 08:15 Joubu fridolin: do you remember? 08:15 Joubu If I remember correctly, fridolin did the install 08:15 kivilahtio Joubu: Just looking for ammunition for my arguments 08:15 kivilahtio Joubu: I am trying to convince those RedHat peeps to install Ubuntu or Debian 08:14 Joubu I think we had a partner using RedHat, but it was a nightmare to install Koha on it 08:13 kivilahtio Oulu libraries have some tight bindings with their local IT support provider and they only provide RedHat linux 08:13 kivilahtio Joubu: Do you know of anyone using Koha with RedHat? 08:08 huginn Joubu: The operation succeeded. 08:08 Joubu @later tell pianohacker the most important is not the number of patches but their readability :) 08:08 huginn Joubu: The operation succeeded. 08:08 Joubu @later tell khall yes got it, thanks! 08:07 wahanui hi, Joubu 08:07 Joubu hello 07:57 alex_a bonjour 07:32 kivilahtio eythian: *When modifying Items, I don't want to deal with converting perfectly good items-rows to MARC Item representation and then covnerting them back to items-object so it can be saved to DB. 07:32 kivilahtio eythian: nooooooooooo. I don't want to configure elasticsearch indexes in 4 different places 07:31 kivilahtio rangi: Fight the FUD man! Just show them what we do :) 07:30 reiveune hello 06:55 * magnuse waves 05:43 dcook And I was just about to answer 05:40 timmmy I have a brand new default installation. 05:39 timmmy hello. where are the XSLT files? 05:35 dcook thanks for answering my questions, eythian :) 05:35 dcook later 05:34 eythian later 05:34 * eythian heads off 05:26 dcook I would if it would be beneficial here... but it would require some work to make it worthwhile at the moment 05:25 eythian heh 05:25 dcook I keep telling myself that I'll learn to package RPMs for openSUSE, but... 05:24 eythian or maybe just have a script that separates them out. 05:24 dcook :) 05:23 eythian so that koha is treated as upstream and then a separate repo contains the packaging details 05:23 dcook Cool! 05:23 eythian I plan one day to separate out the packaging stuff 05:22 dcook Ah right... I recall you mentioning something about this before 05:22 eythian so, it doesn't permit putting -1 on the end 05:22 eythian as there's no separation of debian/ and source, you can't (in theory) update one without updating the upstream version 05:22 eythian koha is treated as a debian-native package because the debian/ directory is included in the upstream source 05:21 dcook Stricter? 05:21 eythian (we used to, then build rules got stricter) 05:21 eythian one day I'll make it do that 05:21 eythian well, we don't yet do -1 type stuff 05:20 eythian oh, I see 05:20 dcook Which it probably isn't and I'm just overthinking it :p 05:20 dcook And that * isn't replaced with "-blah" 05:20 dcook I'd hope that would work 05:20 dcook In theory 05:19 eythian would it not be 3.18.*, too 05:19 dcook Well, let's say you have 3.18.2 05:19 eythian I don't follow 05:19 dcook Like "0.4.99-1 and 0.4.99-10" 05:19 dcook Maybe this is a Debian specific thing.. 05:19 dcook Ah wait.. maybe not 05:19 dcook Well, apparently "Pin: version 3.18*" will let the automatic upgrades through for minor version updates 05:18 eythian we just pin it to stop automatic upgrades, so we can do them manually as needed. 05:18 dcook I'm intrigued by these priorities.. 05:18 dcook https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-apt-get.en.html 05:18 eythian you might be able to do that, I'm not sure 05:18 dcook Hmm, I think maybe what I want is... "Pin: version 3.18*" perhaps 05:15 dcook Hmm.. 05:14 eythian apt-cache policy package is useful for checking what's going on 05:12 eythian and it'll force that version 05:12 eythian you can do apt-get install package=1.2.3 05:12 eythian maybe 05:11 eythian not sure. 05:11 eythian hmm 05:11 dcook just "apt-get install package"? 05:11 wahanui koha-common is the one you want, the main koha one needs a bit more work (its for setting up a single instance) 05:11 eythian Pin-Priority: -1 05:11 eythian Pin: origin "debian.koha-community.org" 05:11 eythian Package: koha-common 05:11 eythian $ cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/koha-common 05:11 eythian yeah 05:11 dcook Can you still manually update it even though it's pinned? 05:11 dcook Say you only had one package that wasn't available via another repo 05:11 dcook Mmm, right. I recall seeing something about priority. 05:10 eythian well, it's generally the case. However you can do things like use pinning to prioritise another repo. 05:10 dcook What's the part that mostly isn't? 05:09 eythian that's mostly right 05:09 dcook When you pin a package, it doesn't get updated by doing "apt-get upgrade", right? 05:09 eythian sure 05:09 dcook eythian: Quick question about Debian packages if you're up for it 04:54 dcook It's funny because it's true... 04:54 dcook hehe 04:54 wahanui okay, eythian. 04:54 eythian wahanui: irc is also multiplayer notepad 04:54 wahanui ...but irc is http://irc.koha-community.org/irclog/koha/|a good place to ask question. This week is more quiet that usual because of the Koha Conference... 04:54 eythian wahanui: irc is multiplayer notepad 04:53 * dcook should really review some of his shell scripts to double-check their syntax... 04:53 dcook I think openSUSE uses bash by default.. 04:52 dcook More "bashisms" than I thought 04:52 dcook Ahhh 04:52 dcook Hmm, maybe something else is up.. 04:50 eythian well shell scripts should be sh compatible and work fine, or declare /usr/bin/bash 04:50 dcook I've been converting a lot of my shell scripts to Python scripts lately 04:49 eythian yeah, just checked a server 04:49 dcook I must not write as many shell scripts on Debian based systems.. 04:49 dcook Huh.. 04:49 dcook Really? 04:49 dcook I thought the wheezy I have at home didn't though... 04:49 eythian squeeze does too 04:49 dcook Yeah, I just noticed that this Wheezy install I'm using uses dash 04:49 eythian not sure when debian started doing it 04:49 eythian I think wheezy already has 04:47 dcook I thought "dash" was just used in Ubuntu.. 04:47 dcook Has Wheezy always linked "sh" to "dash"? 04:47 dcook Hmm.. 03:55 dcook I was wondering what they meant when the email said "Secure email" :p 03:51 dcook The super expensive doctors email you a link to your message 03:50 dcook Ohh... this one is interesting 03:45 eythian that's a start 03:45 eythian well, now I'm sortof getting authority results 03:40 dcook I am so so glad I'm not in the states 03:39 wizzyrea dcook: just be glad you're not in the states. 03:39 dcook It's so easy back in Canada, but here it's all... 03:39 dcook I just find medical/dental stuff so different in Australia... 03:39 dcook I'm not going to share the contents of my next phone call. Hopefully it should be more straightforward. 03:38 * dcook seems to sleep stressfully 03:38 dcook Hmm, neato 03:38 wizzyrea unrelated. 03:38 wizzyrea quite a good singer. 03:38 wizzyrea i have a high school friend who has/had a tmj ... thing 03:38 dcook Of course, I've thought about doing all sorts of things really 03:38 eythian dcook: temporomandibular joint 03:38 * dcook thought about being a forensic pathologist, so body stuff is more interesting than icky to him 03:37 dcook wizzyrea: sorry :( 03:37 dcook eythian: TMJ? 03:37 eythian a mouthguard thing for a few weeks sorted it. 03:37 wizzyrea I just got a squicky feeling reading that. 03:37 dcook Although brace wire breakage sucks... 03:37 eythian dcook: ah yeah, I had that and it was causing my TMJ to screw up. 03:37 dcook wizzyrea: As per my earlier post about blood and needles, I actually kind of like teeth pulling and stuff as well. Very satisfying sound when they come out. 03:36 dcook eythian ^ 03:36 dcook That could be a space saver 03:36 wizzyrea I am totally lost in the world of teeth straightening. 03:36 eythian in the form of a tooth 03:36 dcook I foresee always needing an applicance 03:36 eythian appliance, like a washing machine? 03:36 dcook Alas, I'm a bruxist... 03:36 * dcook just needs someone to take a mould of his teeth, create a super thick plastic appliance, and give it to him with a minimum of fuss 03:36 eythian that's how they work :) 03:36 eythian now I no longer need one. 03:36 eythian I used to have an orthodontist 03:36 eythian no, it probably won't. But if it points out that they shouldn't be emailing medical stuff... 03:35 dcook I'm sure the orthodontist could've been more tech savvy in a different life 03:35 * wizzyrea backs away slowly 03:35 wizzyrea not that he needs an orthodontist 03:35 * wizzyrea challenges eythian to try 03:35 wizzyrea that might not work with an orthodontist. 03:35 eythian i.e. if I'm sharing passwords or some such 03:35 eythian usually IT people at other organisations 03:34 wizzyrea hehehehhehh 03:34 dcook eythian: Which people? 03:34 * eythian just asks people for the GPG key, with the assumption they have one. So far two people we've worked with have created one (which is also the number of people I've asked for one.) 03:34 wizzyrea and use your own. 03:34 dcook Although now that I think about it... I did help that out with some graphic design stuff a few years ago when I had some time to kill 03:34 wizzyrea but it's pretty easy to get a google apps domain 03:34 wizzyrea mmm those two things don't necessarily go together 03:34 dcook Mind you, the website is buggy so that's... not good 03:33 dcook wizzyrea: The weird thing with the hotmail is that they have someone hosting a website for them. You'd think that they'd have email as well.. 03:33 dcook But man... 03:33 dcook Fortunately, we found the documents and didn't need replacements :p 03:33 wizzyrea heh. 03:33 dcook And I never heard from them again... 03:33 dcook I emailed them being like "Maybe you should use SSL and have the ability to upload documents that way, as email isn't a secure way of transferring documents, especially credit card details, at all." 03:32 wizzyrea <shudder> 03:32 dcook ^ 03:32 wizzyrea or government websites that don't use SSL 03:32 dcook Oh man, that reminds me of so many different courts that want you to email your credit card details... 03:32 wizzyrea these are better questions to be asking yourself. 03:31 dcook Mind you, why are you emailing people with medical info... 03:31 dcook It's medical info! 03:31 wizzyrea judging people based on their email domain. tsk. 03:31 eythian haha 03:30 dcook Even the one I like uses a hotmail address :p 03:30 dcook Hmm, orthodontists seem sketchy... 03:30 dcook Thanks chrisvella_ :) 03:12 chrisvella_ good message on the bug report dcook 03:10 chrisvella_ basically submit to the botnet or spend your days filling in impossible cap's 03:09 chrisvella_ and using a google account and stuff 03:09 chrisvella_ but I believe using adblockers and stuff reduces your likelihood of being marked as "human" 03:08 chrisvella_ hahaha 03:08 wizzyrea j/k 03:08 * wizzyrea totes quotes you 03:08 chrisvella_ don't quote me on this 03:07 chrisvella_ idk if its still as bad. but it was super anti-competitive at first 03:07 wizzyrea sounded pretty eesh though 03:06 wizzyrea don't think I ever had the pleasure of actually having to use one, I only read about it. 03:06 chrisvella_ they* 03:06 chrisvella_ there are terrible. the capturas were almost impossible on firefox when that was implemented 03:05 wizzyrea ikr 03:05 chrisvella_ f googles implementation of that. 03:05 wizzyrea google had a thing where they could tell if you were a human or bot just by the way you used the page - which sounds like deep dirty magic to me but... 03:04 wizzyrea yep, accessible bot-proofing is a challenge. 03:03 chrisvella_ much more likely to have user interaction there 03:02 chrisvella_ but then this screen reader issue becomes a bigger problem 03:01 chrisvella_ cool 03:01 wizzyrea I don't see why a negcap wouldn't work there. 03:01 wizzyrea not just that, it's just not terribly usable. 03:00 dcook Which reminds me I should go for lunch because if I don't go now I'll never go 03:00 dcook Too busy for my own (and everyone else's) good 03:00 dcook wizzyrea: Yeah, I think there might be an issue with the cardnumber... I think I fixed it locally but I can't recall what it is now 03:00 chrisvella_ grosssss dcook :) 03:00 * dcook prefers white text on a black background in many cases 03:00 dcook Yeah, the "make this text bigger" "change these colurs" can be tough... although I see the point 03:00 chrisvella_ wizzyrea do you think a negcap would work there? 02:59 wizzyrea it needs a going over, generally. 02:59 chrisvella_ yea its an interesting topic 02:59 wizzyrea in fact 02:59 wizzyrea we do have a plain bad captcha on the selfreg page 02:59 chrisvella_ I find its usually some arbitrary "make this text bigger" "make that brighter" 02:59 dcook I have a few friends who know a lot about accessibility, so I like to grill them for info :p 02:58 chrisvella_ hahaha exactly 02:58 dcook But not always the expertise :/ 02:58 chrisvella_ we have had to deal with similar things 02:58 chrisvella_ the intention always seems to be there 02:58 dcook At least to a certain degree, and probably to a larger degree than anything we cook up would be 02:57 dcook But something in the back of my mind tells me that they try to keep accessibility in mind 02:57 dcook Well, I don't have any examples off my head, so I should've probably said nothing :p 02:57 chrisvella_ how so? 02:57 dcook Actually, I think using Bootstrap has helped with that 02:56 chrisvella_ fair enough 02:56 dcook Well, we have quite a few government clients, so accessibility is always on the radar 02:56 chrisvella_ amazing pickup 02:55 dcook And the boss mentioned the screen reader thing 02:55 dcook I was just looking to backport it to 3.14 02:55 dcook Not that I know of 02:55 dcook ;) 02:55 chrisvella_ has anyone had issues with the negcap? 02:54 chrisvella_ googled* 02:54 chrisvella_ hahaha dcook. just google "FSOG" 02:53 rangi since the rest of the interface can be 02:53 dcook ^ 02:53 rangi and put it in the template in a way that's translatable 02:53 chrisvella_ "donotfillmein" 02:53 * dcook nods 02:53 rangi yep 02:53 chrisvella_ as said above lets make the class/div name really obvious 02:53 dcook Depends on how many times the spammers request FSOG, I guess 02:53 chrisvella_ like purchase suggestions are not a high value target 02:53 dcook Even in the screen reader case, most people would probably leave it blank, so probably not much of an issue 02:52 chrisvella_ exactly 02:52 dcook But yeah, probably not very targetedly 02:52 dcook We've had a few of our Kohas spammed pretty hard :/ 02:52 chrisvella_ the only potential issue is if koha becomes enough of a target for spammers 02:52 chrisvella_ this screen reader issue has totally surprised me, but I think its a minor issue all things considered 02:51 dcook Ah yeah, I seem to recall a pretty bad one there 02:51 rangi we should fix that 02:51 rangi i think we have a plain bad captcha on the borrwer self reg page 02:51 chrisvella_ I think its the right solution for koha 02:51 dcook Btw, in general, I'm totally in favour of the negcap. I hate captchas. 02:51 dcook I think so? 02:50 dcook Ultimately, even the aria stuff could be circumvented. But pretty much anything can be with enough time and effort. 02:50 chrisvella_ we have only implemented the negcap for the purchase suggestions page right? 02:50 chrisvella_ yea agreed 02:50 dcook hehe 02:49 rangi certainly there's more non english people than people using screen readers 02:49 dcook rangi: Yeah, the English language stuff isn't a good alternative 02:49 dcook Yeah, I'm down with the aria stuff 02:49 rangi yeah which imho is a way worse problem 02:49 mtj chrisvella_'s aria page looks good 02:49 dcook "The biggest problem with logic questions is that they’re specific to a language, usually English." 02:48 * dcook looks again 02:48 rangi i meant the ones they suggest on that page as possible alternatives :) 02:48 dcook rangi: Yeah, they mention that on that visionaustralia page I linked 02:48 rangi i like the neg captcha because it doesn't bank on people's english comprehension level 02:48 dcook chrisvella_: Oh... that's cool 02:47 rangi because all the alternatives they suggest assume everyone speaks english 02:46 chrisvella_ http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-hidden dcook mtj 02:46 rangi it's funny 02:46 mtj i was just thinking of removing the text 'negcap' 02:45 dcook I imagine with a label of "negcap", most people would probably leave it empty anyway 02:45 dcook chrisvella_: true true 02:45 dcook rangi: totes 02:45 dcook mtj: Hmm? 02:44 rangi and problem still way more accesible than an actual captcha 02:44 chrisvella_ it does sound like a downside for accessibility but I doubt its going to be an issue for 99.99% of people 02:44 mtj dcook: negcap seems to have a trivial fix? 02:43 chrisvella_ hmmm thats interesting 02:42 dcook Just looking at this site now: http://www.visionaustralia.org/living-with-low-vision/learning-to-live-independently/using-technology-and-computers/blog---accessibility-and-assistive-technology-blog/blog/accessibility-blog/2014/12/09/effective-alternatives-to-inaccessible-captchas 02:42 dcook chrisvella_ I was just going to pose the same Q to you ;) 02:41 chrisvella_ yea dcook I am 02:41 mtj hmm, ok 02:37 dcook I'm doing some more reading about it atm 02:37 dcook It looks like screen readers would read out that field :/ 02:37 dcook The boss raised the query about the negative captcha and screen readers 02:37 mtj hi dcook, whats the Q? 02:33 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3144 normal, P5 - low, ---, mjr, Pushed to Stable , anti-spam for opac-suggestions 02:33 dcook Actually, mtj, you might be the right person to talk to about bug 3144... 02:32 mtj add some wildcards to the inital query, and try again... then show those results as some suggested search queries 02:30 mtj eythian: yeah, thats the sensible way 02:29 dcook chrisvella_: Are you still about? 02:29 eythian so pretty much the same as a fuzzy search 02:29 eythian well, I was thinking it'd work from the current database 02:29 mtj the way i imagine it working is a pretty useless way 02:28 mtj different results, depending on the current lang. 02:27 eythian yeah 02:25 mtj its a tricky feature to spec huh.. the results will always be a bit subjective 02:25 mtj ah nice 02:24 eythian *not 02:24 eythian I'm no 100% sure though 02:24 eythian it's something we could possibly implement with elasticsearch, I think 02:23 mtj https://github.com/wiggin/Google-did-you-mean 02:23 mtj hey, this is kinda curious.. 02:23 mtj hi all 02:15 eythian anybody need a petabyte of online storage? rsync.net is doing a referral program where I'll get a $24,000 bonus, which would be nice. 02:14 dcook eythian: Ouch! 02:06 eythian hah, so I think my dumb query mistake yesterday was putting _any when I meant _all 00:04 dcook eythian: :p