Time  Nick          Message
23:46 dcook         hehe
23:07 huginn`       eythian: The operation succeeded.
23:07 eythian       @later tell tcohen I can take a look, though I can't promise I'll be useful :) where do I find it?
23:07 wahanui       tcohen was last seen on #koha 5 hours, 5 minutes and 11 seconds ago, saying: bye #koha [Tue Feb 25 18:02:08 2014]
23:07 eythian       seen tcohen
23:06 wahanui       que tal, eythian
23:06 eythian       hi
22:59 rhcl          I abused the term a bit
22:59 rhcl          ah, derrivation of US legal term meaning "broad problem"
22:58 mtj           rhcl,  curious, what is class-action?
22:55 rhcl          I wonder if it happens enough to be regarded as a class-action problem?
22:54 mtj           i really thought ionice would have worked fine, on the zebra problem
22:50 * dcook       catches up on the logs
22:49 wahanui       http://zork.net/~spork/amirite.pdf
22:49 mtj           amirite?
22:49 mtj           bag, i guess if you system is busy enough to have a 'problematic' merge load,  you can afford the SSD disk :p
22:47 mtj           afaik only zebra ^^
22:47 rhcl          bag: more specifically are you putting mysql on a separate disk and/or only zebra?
22:47 * mtj         puts a positive spin on the problem :)
22:46 mtj           so, $100 for a 100GB SSD disk = problem solved :)
22:45 mtj           using an SSD would sort that problem, even better
22:44 mtj           moving zebra to a new disk, fixed the problem nicely
22:43 mtj           i have bumped into problems with zebra-indexing locking up the system, under load
22:43 bag           so this has to be known for all of us :D
22:42 mtj           yeah :/
22:42 mtj           which is a pretty big hassle for the average library :/
22:42 bag           so mtj it's not so much of a problem for us - we just split zebra on a different disk - I'm just worried about the koha systems that can't afford to have two disks etc....
22:41 mtj           bag, i guess you might need to resort to LVM to 'manage' system IO better…?
22:40 ashimema      lol.. night all
22:40 bag           night night ashimema
22:40 ashimema      night cait..
22:40 cait          night ashimema :)
22:40 ashimema      i can go to bed then ;)
22:40 bag           but mtj is here and he loves to talk :D
22:39 ashimema      coolios.
22:39 bag           sorry :)
22:39 mtj           yeah, ok… :/
22:39 bag           ashimema: it's over brah
22:39 bag           it's the actual merge of the .idx that causes the crazy I/O
22:39 ashimema      ack.. connection died.. meeting still going on?
22:39 bag           mtj: we haven't seen any problems with creating the /tmp files
22:39 mtj           i'm guessing the big IO is on the actual zebra index files, not any /tmp/* stuff
22:39 thd`          rangi: My guess about the reason which the BibLibre Simple Server implementation never worked for me is that it would drop the connection before I could complete all the aspects of my request and obtain a final result set.
22:38 mtj           hey larryb , bag  - re: the zebra disk problem, does moving zebra's /tmp dir to a ramdisk/ssd help things?
22:37 thd`          The degree of persistence may certainly be unusual but one can err in the other direction.
22:36 thd`          rangi: You had mention Koha's unusual use of a persistent connection with Zebra.
22:35 thd`          gmcharlt had requested a topic focus so I had not continued earlier ...
22:35 rangi         yep, working on ncip
22:34 thd`          rangi: Are you still here?
22:32 * eythian_    has to go now, I'll be back on in ~30 minutes or so.
22:31 larryb        I'll check those out. thanks wajasu
22:31 wajasu        http://fritshoogland.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/throttling-io-with-linux/
22:31 wajasu        another option may be cgroups, if that is on your debian. http://www.janoszen.com/2013/02/06/limiting-linux-processes-cgroups-explained/
22:30 larryb        the problem doesn't seem to be the priority of the *process*, but just the disk IO
22:30 eythian_      it might, it might not, I don't really know :)
22:30 larryb        eythian_ would nicing rebuild really help much if we're already ionicing it?
22:29 larryb        I can test ionice with -c 3 and see how much longer it takes for the same number of updates
22:28 larryb        edit "turn rebuilding off in the afternoon"
22:28 eythian_      you could also try nicing the rebuild process a bit.
22:28 mtompset      Have a great day, #koha. :)
22:28 larryb        for some sites we've gone as far as to turn rebuilding the in the afternoon, so a slower rebuild, if it doesn't freeze up the system, would be an improvement
22:27 * mtompset    waves bye.
22:27 larryb        yeah, but we already use flock on it, so we don't have a problem with stacking rebuilds
22:27 eythian_      though it would slow down rebuilding
22:27 gmcharlt      *try
22:26 larryb        I wasn't sure I wanted to go all the way to -c
22:26 gmcharlt      yeah, definitely trice -c 3
22:26 larryb        to see if there were any suggestions for altering them
22:26 larryb        that's why I posted the settings I used.
22:26 eythian_      larryb: wouldn't -c 3 be better?
22:26 larryb        using ionice on the rebuild did not help, the system still froze up
22:25 gmcharlt      larryb: to clarify, it didn't help in that other processes were visibily blocked?
22:25 larryb        unfortunately it didn't help
22:25 wajasu        if you index on a filesystem separate from others, you might look at changing some async, noatime, etc options.
22:25 larryb        I've already tried that, using ionice -c 2 -n 7 -t
22:24 larryb        it was suggested earlier that we use ionice on the rebuild_zebra cron, do prevent the disk IO freeze-up
22:24 * eythian_    can't stay too long, I need to go to work soon, but I can be here for a few minutes or so.
22:24 bag           heh
22:24 bag           yes yes and the rest of you all too :)
22:24 bag           and rangi
22:24 bag           let's grab eythian_ and gmcharlt while they are still listening
22:24 larryb        I am
22:24 bag           larryb: you still here
22:24 cait          thx gmcharlt :)
22:23 huginn`       Log:            http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_21_00_utc.2014-02-25-21.01.log.html
22:23 huginn`       Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_21_00_utc.2014-02-25-21.01.txt
22:23 huginn`       Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_21_00_utc.2014-02-25-21.01.html
22:23 huginn`       Meeting ended Tue Feb 25 22:23:25 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
22:23 gmcharlt      #endmeeting
22:23 gmcharlt      #agreed Next dev meeting will be at 15UTC/21UTC on 12 March 2014 (achivement unlocked: confirmation!)
22:23 gmcharlt      er
22:23 bag           +1  and good timing - during the hackfest
22:22 gmcharlt      #agreed Next dev meeting will be at 15UTC/21UTC on 12 March 2014 (pending confirmation from the second half of today's meeting)
22:22 gmcharlt      but seriously
22:22 cait          sorry....:)
22:22 gmcharlt      cait: stop stuffing the ballot box ;)
22:22 eythian_      +1
22:22 cait          +1 # does it count again?
22:22 pianohacker   +1
22:21 rangi         +1
22:21 gmcharlt      right
22:21 wajasu        we also mentioned in prior meeting for ICU to maybe be the default for zebra.
22:20 wahanui          -1
22:20 gmcharlt      +1/-1 ?
22:20 gmcharlt      two-part like today, at 15UTC/21UTC on 12 March 2014
22:20 gmcharlt      tenatively, a follow-up meeting has been agreed to
22:20 bag           cait everything I've seen so far - isn't bad for translations
22:20 gmcharlt      #topic Next meeting
22:20 pianohacker   cait: I'm working hard to make it translatable, don't worry :)
22:19 pianohacker   gmcharlt: Yup, the LCCN was one of my concerns
22:19 bag           cait let's talk about that and work on that at the hackfest
22:19 gmcharlt      ah, yes - i18n
22:19 gmcharlt      e.g., from the fixed fields and the 010$a
22:19 cait          pianohacker: translations? *hides*
22:19 gmcharlt      pianohacker: eh, making sure it doesn't trim leading/trailing whitespace unexpectedly
22:19 pianohacker   And it _should_ round trip cleanly, doesn't try to do anything fancy with whitespace or anything like that, and should be UTF-8 clean; are there any other likely issues?
22:19 gmcharlt      OK
22:18 gmcharlt      great
22:18 bag           thanks :)
22:18 pianohacker   yes, either this week or early next week
22:18 cait          :)
22:18 bag           :)
22:18 bag           yes don't submit anything that messes up data
22:17 cait          and if it's not messing up data :)
22:17 cait          if it is next to existing, it could maybe be experimental
22:17 bag           before marseille hackfest?
22:17 pianohacker   Yes, definitely. I'm working on polishing up the fixed field stuff a bit then I'll send it out
22:17 bag           cool pianohacker submit some basics :)
22:16 cait          we have small libraries not used to marc21
22:16 ashimema      it's been on hold for a few months with other priorities taking hold
22:16 cait          pianohacker: glad to hear that :)
22:16 gmcharlt      I *really* want something out there for folks to be actively testing outside of your demo environemtn
22:16 pianohacker   cait: Stay next to; the old editor is intended to stay around as a basic editor
22:16 ashimema      not 100% sure how current this is.. but colins ILL branch is at: https://github.com/colinsc/koha/tree/ill_wip
22:16 gmcharlt      pianohacker: the functions you've outlined (save to catalog, edit exiting records, and seach) sound plenty for a first cut
22:16 pianohacker   sudo rancor gmcharlt
22:15 bag           pianohacker: you are editing gmcharlt
22:15 gmcharlt      ;)
22:15 gmcharlt      pianohacker: permission denied
22:15 cait          pianohacker: waht i wondered - is rancor next to the existing interface for now or trying to replace?
22:15 pianohacker   *edit existing gmcharlts
22:15 pianohacker   oh dangit
22:15 ashimema      i'll poke gmcharlt
22:14 ashimema      it's more thought than code at the mo.
22:14 gmcharlt      it edits editors? wow! ;)
22:14 ashimema      i've also got a rotating collections (of european style) under development.. but that won't be ready for a while...
22:14 pianohacker   I can make a patch series fairly soon, but I'm curious as to what sort of functionality would be necessary for a first series; it can save to the catalog, edit existing editors, search, etc.
22:14 gmcharlt      ashimema: pointers to more information would be great, if you wouldn't mind poking them
22:13 ashimema      communication++
22:13 ashimema      gmcharlt: ILL is not my baby i'm afraid.. colinc and mark have been working on it.. I believe it's currenty going through some refactoring to meet 3.16 guidlines
22:13 cait          communication++
22:13 bag           communication++
22:12 ashimema      should be a new patch shortly.. much cleaner and easier to maintain.
22:12 bag           awesome
22:12 ashimema      bag: I've spoken to khall about it.. we're on good ground with it at the moment between us.
22:12 eythian_      oh, I was thinking there was a bug in koha about logging :)
22:12 gmcharlt      ashimema: say more about ILL?
22:11 rangi         http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=NCIPServer.git
22:11 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8190 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Passed QA , Add a logging module to Koha
22:11 ashimema      eythian_: bug 8190
22:11 rangi         and
22:11 rangi         http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=working/NCIPServer.git;a=summary  <-- here
22:11 bag           ashimema: I'm very interested in the edi work - we've been using the stuff already submitted and not sure how much we've changed
22:11 ashimema      we're also working on ILL
22:10 pianohacker   rangi: yup, taking a look at it, very interesting
22:10 * ashimema    thanks cait for reminding him about those
22:10 rangi         ie its not going to be committed to Koha
22:10 ashimema      we're working on a refactoring of borrower_imports, ColinC and I are trying to get EDI back on the playing field and i'm not sure where housebound is at from our front..
22:10 rangi         ive been working on NCIP stuff, its kinda aside to Koha
22:10 bag           ah pianohacker you catch that link from rangi ?
22:10 eythian_      ashimema: what is the logging bug?
22:09 francharb_afk bye all
22:09 * bag         has trouble being quiet :P
22:09 rangi         click on document, then switch the schema to marc21
22:09 ashimema      rangi: yeah, you did.. there's a passed qa bug that's really still in discussion.. hotely debated earlier
22:09 * cait        promises not to quietly work on world changing things :)
22:09 jcamins       rangi: it's on the logging bug as an attachment.
22:09 rangi         bag: for pianohacker http://holloway.github.io/doctored/
22:09 gmcharlt      particularly given the recent discusssions on the mailing list about ES, I want to make sure that we don't have folks quietly working on stuff
22:08 rangi         heres something to look at
22:08 bag           alright if peeps have questions for pianohacker's rancor for large enhancements
22:08 rangi         im pretty sure i wrote a patch using log4perl that did that, but i cant remember
22:08 gmcharlt      - Joobu's column-management stuff
22:08 pianohacker   yo
22:08 * ashimema    hides.. it's at this point I brought up the logging bug in the last meeting
22:08 bag           pianohacker: you here?
22:08 gmcharlt      - the new cataloging editor
22:08 gmcharlt      - ES
22:07 gmcharlt      the ones I know of include:
22:07 gmcharlt      and which are large enough or world-changing enough that a lot of special work may be required of the testers
22:07 gmcharlt      by large enhancements, I'm basically looking for works-in-progress that are hoped to make it in for 3.16 or 3.18, but which are not necessarily visible enough
22:07 larryb        sure gmcharlt
22:06 gmcharlt      larryb: please hold a few minutes if you don't mind
22:06 gmcharlt      #topic Pending Large Enhancements
22:06 larryb        apologies for joining late, but I wanted to throw out a comment regarding the index rebuild disk IO problem
22:06 gmcharlt      OK, moving on
22:05 cait          too hard...
22:05 mtompset      cait++ # always on the ball.
22:05 cait          it didn't look too had when you showed us a bit at kohacon... but i haven't had a chance to look at it since
22:05 ashimema      cait.. you beat me to it again.
22:04 * ashimema    looks forward to some examples that fall into the two camps.
22:04 cait          i think examples would be great
22:04 rangi         exacterly
22:04 gmcharlt      but none of that is affected by the current discussion about how to structure use of DBIC
22:03 gmcharlt      mtompset: DB-agnosticism, entering the OO-age, and reducing the need for manually-written SQL
22:03 rangi         this is worth reading too
22:03 rangi         http://blogs.perl.org/users/ovid/2014/02/using-dbixclassschemaloader-to-find-design-flaws.html
22:03 rangi         sweet
22:03 wajasu        i did run Test:DBIx:Class::Schema  against your master last week and it all ran through.
22:03 rangi         yep
22:03 gmcharlt      one thing that seems reasonably clear to me, for example, is that adding some syntax sugar to concisely fetch a object of the appropriate schema type given a known idea would be nicer than Koha::Database->...->rs()
22:02 rangi         there is some in the elastic search stuff
22:02 gmcharlt      but I would appreciate if otehr folks would take up a small bit of functionality and also do some experimentation
22:01 rangi         i agree
22:01 gmcharlt      I had made an action item for myself to write up some examples
22:01 mtompset      Well, what was the purpose of bringing in the DBIC schema classes into Koha? Was it not DB-agnosticism?
22:01 gmcharlt      and other record types where only a few suplemntary methods would need to be added to the schema classes
22:01 wajasu        and i wanted to get tests written across the data access layer, possibly with NYTProf stats.
22:00 gmcharlt      given that there's a lot of places that simply need to shovel data from DB to presentation
22:00 gmcharlt      my personal view is the former
21:59 rangi         right
21:59 * cait        agrees
21:59 ashimema      that about covers the conversation from earlier gmcharlt
21:59 gmcharlt      I hope I've represented the range fairly
21:59 gmcharlt      and enforcing non-DBIC in the .pl files
21:58 gmcharlt      versus wrapping an layer over DBIC objects across the board
21:58 gmcharlt      with opinions essentially ranging between using the DBIC schema classes as is, and only adding additional layers of abstraction where absolutely needed -- representing bib records is one example
21:57 gmcharlt      there's some pending disagreement about appropriate use of DBIC
21:57 gmcharlt      to summarize the discussion this morning
21:57 bag           thanks
21:57 gmcharlt      #topic DBIx::Class
21:57 gmcharlt      and now I really will change topics
21:57 gmcharlt      thanks
21:57 bag           if I don't find it - I will create one
21:57 gmcharlt      if not, please file one -- I can't think of a better place at moment to aggregate informatino about zebraidx I/O perofrmance
21:56 bag           I don't know gmcharlt
21:56 gmcharlt      bag: is there a bug yet?
21:55 mtompset      gmcharlt++
21:55 mtompset      bag++ #pie
21:55 eythian_      bag: yep. I'd slap an ionice in front of the rebuild command, see if that helps to start with.
21:55 ashimema      I've dabbled with sticing indexes on ssd whilst everything else is on hdd.. it 'felt' quicker, but I ran out of time to really benchmark it properly
21:55 thd`          eythian_: Yes but a non-thrashing system is important.
21:55 bag           eythian_: best practice yes - but may not be possible for all people installing koha
21:54 eythian_      thd`: then you don't have updates in near realtime
21:54 gmcharlt      *once a day
21:54 gmcharlt      indexing but once a data is a non-starter for general use
21:54 rangi         that may still i/o bind you
21:54 thd`          gmcharlt: If something like rebalancing is happening then the process should be batched to cron for late at night.
21:54 rangi         and rsync
21:54 eythian_      I do think splitting the disks for the different things could be considered a best practice though.
21:54 rangi         you could index on another machine
21:54 gmcharlt      of course, one could s/ramdisk/SSD/, but that still involves expense
21:53 gmcharlt      eythian_: yeah, that's the obvious tradeoff
21:53 rangi         yeah
21:53 bag           but I'm not sure everyone could afford such a thing
21:53 eythian_      could have problems when they get large, also having to do a full rebuild on boot could take a long time.
21:53 rangi         hmm thats not that crazy
21:53 bag           we've gotten around it by getting mysql on a different disk than zebra idx
21:52 gmcharlt      store the zebra files on a ramdisk
21:52 gmcharlt      of course, here's a crazy thought:
21:52 cait          bag++ gmcharlt++
21:52 gmcharlt      bag++
21:52 bag           gmcharlt++
21:52 eythian_      totally trivial to test, too.
21:52 bag           heh
21:51 gmcharlt      bag: rangi: zebraidx may end up doing index rebalancing regardless of the size of the merge, perhaps
21:51 rangi         bag++ #pie
21:51 bag           good thought - let's get a bug for that
21:51 rangi         gmcharlt: thats definitely worth trying
21:51 rangi         bag: maybe not then, darn
21:51 gmcharlt      well, if it turns out to help, ionice could be incorporated into the script that launches rebuild_zebra.pl easily enough
21:51 bag           rangi we've seen it with merges as little of 100 records
21:50 wajasu        maybe some unix command like renice or ionice can bind the IO for that process. - just a guess
21:50 rangi         but not sure
21:50 rangi         chunking the merges into smaller bits may be a solution too
21:49 bag           thd`: fast indexing - once you are TRYing to add to an index that is already created
21:49 eythian_      or have your DB on another server. I've also been meaning to look into having zebra on its own server, but haven't really had the need.
21:49 gmcharlt      (and separating out I/O for DB vs. everything else is often a good idea for large installations)
21:49 thd`          What are the conditions under which a merge happens with Zebra?
21:49 gmcharlt      indeed
21:48 eythian_      a workaround would be to run it with ionice so that other things get priority.
21:48 bag           we've done some testing and can only confirm that if you have mysql on the same disk then everything freezes for a bit
21:48 gmcharlt      and at present nobody's yet dived deep enough into the code to see if it can be readily remedied
21:48 ashimema      yup.. we've seen that too bag
21:48 eythian_      a merge will use a ton of IO, because it's beating up on the disk.
21:47 rangi         yeah, it becomes I/O bound on the merge step
21:47 bag           rangi or gmcharlt please feel free to say what I said more gracefully
21:47 thd`          Even with MARC, anything which scales better is an advantage.
21:47 bag           just at that spot
21:47 bag           uses 100% of the I/O
21:47 bag           I've talked with gmcharlt and rangi about this.  but we've seen zebra fast indexing - when it's doing a merge
21:46 ashimema      :)
21:46 gmcharlt      bag go for it
21:46 gmcharlt      #topic Searching
21:46 gmcharlt      oh, OK :)
21:46 bag           ah I have something to add about Zebra - when it's back to that subject
21:46 gmcharlt      #topic DBIx::Class
21:45 mtompset      actually... how does all this search stuff related to facets showing or not showing?
21:45 gmcharlt      OK, next topic
21:45 bag           here - sorry to be late
21:45 * ashimema    best go read the manual
21:45 rangi         i feel like it will make life a lot better for the future and help with our move from MARC
21:45 ashimema      ++
21:45 cait          rangi++ eythian++
21:44 rangi         thats about all i have
21:43 rangi         its a well documented module, which is very handy
21:42 cait          totally curious :)
21:42 cait          very cool
21:42 rangi         #info we plan to have a demo in time for the hackfest
21:42 rangi         if you are interested
21:42 rangi         http://search.cpan.org/~drtech/ElasticSearch-0.66/lib/ElasticSearch.pm#Query_methods
21:41 rangi         yes thats the plan
21:41 gmcharlt      #link http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/elastic_search
21:40 * cait        tries to follow
21:40 * ashimema    clueless again :$
21:40 cait          so we could use query parser to translate searches into elastic search searches?
21:40 rangi         its super simple
21:40 rangi         nope
21:39 gmcharlt      but unless you are about to tell me that ES uses ASN.666/BER, we're probably OK ;)
21:39 ashimema      thanks gmcharlt
21:39 ashimema      ;)
21:39 ashimema      yeah.. that's what I meant..
21:39 rangi         yeah that :)
21:39 gmcharlt      well, in QP-speak it woudl be more likely a driver that translates to ES queries
21:38 rangi         http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha.git;a=blob;f=Koha/ElasticSearch/Search.pm;h=2efb53e04ab5e3b01958009ae925f3e1530cce51;hb=dcb4ab577d305ec415d06b84a0eca7d58ea685b4 <-- so tiny and cute
21:38 rangi         id like that to abstract over Koha::ElasticSearch::Search
21:38 thd`          gmcharlt: Was the consideration of shared work merely for the user interface parser to which any backend system could be used?
21:38 ashimema      QueryParser was going to be my next question.. in that. how does it fit in in the scheme of things with ES?
21:37 gmcharlt      I repeat, I know of no serious thoughts about changing Evergreen's search engine at present
21:37 rangi         which abstracts over Koha::ElasticSearch::Indexer
21:37 gmcharlt      thd`: the context was most likely QueryParser
21:37 rangi         we could make Koha::Indexer
21:37 gmcharlt      now I know we're set for life! ;)
21:36 rangi         heh
21:36 gmcharlt      rangi: ashimema: well that's a relief -- I was worried that we'd never have anything to talk about on koha-devel
21:36 thd`          gmcharlt: At the last Kohacon hackfest the issue of some shared work between Koha and Evergreen in relation to search was discussed.
21:36 ashimema      fair point.
21:36 rangi         http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha.git;a=blob;f=Koha/ElasticSearch/Indexer.pm;h=d7dd8dc011fa2d09fc452aa8e29351815f30dc1d;hb=dcb4ab577d305ec415d06b84a0eca7d58ea685b4  <-- indexer
21:36 rangi         i think that abstraction can actually make it more obtuse and slow
21:35 rangi         probably not
21:35 ashimema      any comments on abstraction rangi..  is it likely we'll be ableto use this work to 'plug in' other indexers in the future via writing a 'driver'..
21:35 rangi         the indexer is very simple, at the moment is marc only, but would be able to be other documents with minor changes
21:34 rangi         i figure small incremental improvements are easier to test, and less likely to bustinate everything
21:34 rangi         yeah, kaizen :)
21:34 ashimema      at least in the medium term.
21:34 ashimema      z3950/SRU is what zebra is built for.. we may as well keep using it for that ;)
21:34 thd`          rangi: of course, but I meant update triggers for the database etc.
21:33 rangi         is the short answer
21:33 rangi         thd`: i dont want to write a z3950 or sru/sw server
21:33 ashimema      coolios.
21:33 thd`          rangi: Do you mean the your implementation is merely complementary to what Zebra provides because we have tied so much functionality to Zebra?
21:33 rangi         eventually yeah
21:32 ashimema      so keeping zebra for z39.50 (SRU) support, but using ES for OPAC and eventually intranet search
21:32 rangi         it might be a switch, when the intranet searches work with it too
21:32 ashimema      I see..
21:32 rangi         so you can have elasticsearch on the opac and zebra on the back (like now)
21:31 rangi         ie its still indexing zebra in the background
21:31 rangi         if you switch the syspref it indexes to elasticsearch TOO
21:31 rangi         ashimema: its working side by side
21:31 rangi         im hoping we can do something that humans will actually understand though :)
21:30 ashimema      silly question time.. how does it actually fit together in terms of side by side with zebra, drop in replacement.. does your work do anything to abstract so we could use variose search backends?
21:30 rangi         thats what it said to me
21:30 rangi         blah blah millenium blah blah horizon .. blah blah
21:30 thd`          ;)
21:30 rangi         thd`: no idea, im not gonna reread the spec thing now
21:30 rangi         http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/elastic_search
21:29 rangi         yep
21:29 thd`          rangi: Does that mean browsing the semantic space of classification or subject headings hierarchically?
21:29 cait          mostly alphabetic index i think - libraries here are asking for that as well
21:29 gmcharlt      WIP can be viewed where?
21:29 rangi         we aim to have a demo site up for playing with at the hackfest
21:29 eythian_      once the fundamentals are in place, adding more is easy.
21:29 cait          that's not too bad :)
21:29 rangi         cait: just author, keyword, title at the moment
21:29 ashimema      lol, I've never really understood what librarians mean by 'browse search'
21:28 rangi         but apparently is vitally important to librarians
21:28 rangi         thd`: a library browse .. so something no one else on the planet would understand
21:28 cait          rangi: what does basic search include?
21:28 rangi         gmcharlt: kinda both
21:28 rangi         then time permitting, create a fully js search page, (since elasticsearch hands back JSON)
21:27 thd`          rangi: How is browse search envisioned by the client?
21:27 gmcharlt      browse in this case meaning what, exactly? bib headings, authority headings, or both?
21:27 rangi         after that, intranet search
21:26 rangi         next on the cards is a browse search, whcih is one of hte requirements of the funding institution
21:26 eythian_      still not ready, but getting there.
21:26 rangi         eythian has done work on an iterator for biblios to allow for a batch index (amongst others)
21:25 rangi         we have indexing (when a biblio is modified) and a basic search going
21:25 rangi         right elastic search
21:24 cait          :)
21:24 cait          ashimema: things are clearer for me now too - so thx for holding up
21:24 gmcharlt      ok, dragging us back on topic, please...
21:23 rangi         *nod*
21:23 eythian_      there's no reason we couldn't add it to the package install, perhaps as an option, aside from someone taking the time to do it.
21:23 * ashimema    apologises for holding up conversation on ElasticSearch..
21:23 thd`          rangi: If you do not hold connections open with Z39.50 your request fails.
21:23 * ashimema    adds mental note
21:23 rangi         but it would be better to get yaz-proxy in there, which will be useful under cgi too
21:22 ashimema      so.. may worth working that installer patch out such that it cleanly adds the workaround so we can get more sites testing rigorously.
21:22 rangi         thd`: holding connections open
21:22 rangi         in production
21:21 eythian_      )
21:21 eythian_      (I did spend time tuning it to ensure it couldn't OOM under plack too, that's necessary but not hard._
21:21 rangi         id happily run the opac under plack, with the ZConn fix
21:21 rangi         yep
21:21 eythian_      normally it'd be all OOM then die
21:21 rangi         we are planning to do a lot more testing on the intranet
21:21 ashimema      I see, a worthwhile note..
21:21 eythian_      yeah, it barely broke a sweat with thousands of requests in a short space of time
21:21 rangi         (when they publish a newsletter that pounded the opac to death)
21:20 rangi         it works great, and has stopped the site dying under big load which it used to do each month
21:20 ashimema      thought that might be the case.. cheers gmcharlt
21:20 rangi         with the above commit, to make it reconnect to zebra each search (exactly what happens under cgi)
21:20 gmcharlt      ashimema: (briefly, yaz-proxy in front of Zebra will take care of trying and reopening the Zebra connect if it times out)
21:20 rangi         we have one client running the opac in production
21:20 thd`          rangi: In what way do you mean not designed for our use case?
21:19 gmcharlt      rangi: can you give a summary of where Catalyst is with it?
21:19 * ashimema    got left behind at the mention of yaz-proxy...
21:19 gmcharlt      #topic Elastic Search
21:19 gmcharlt      I think this is a reasonable seque to...
21:19 gmcharlt      indeed
21:19 rangi         and why LOC use yaz-proxy in front of their ILS
21:19 rangi         which is why yaz-proxy and things like it exist
21:18 rangi         however, 99% of the world try to do the same thing we do
21:18 rangi         is not designed to be used in the way we use it
21:18 rangi         in fact z3950
21:18 rangi         the ZOOM api has no way of knowing if a connection is live
21:17 rangi         zebra very very very rarely crashes
21:17 wajasu        oh
21:17 rangi         its a timed out connection
21:17 rangi         wajasu: its not a stopped/crashed server
21:17 gmcharlt      replacing Evergreen's search engine is not on anybody's radar to my knowledge
21:17 eythian_      wajasu: the problem is mostly memory leaks and unreleased resources, I think.
21:17 ashimema      indeed.. I was hoping to use a few of our more friendly customers as ginny pigs
21:17 thd`          sorry, I was disconnected
21:17 rangi         thd`: we arent even up to that yet
21:16 wajasu        has anyone though of using systemd to manage start/restart/stop of servers.  i believe systemd can be a watchdog and restart crashed services.
21:16 thd`          To what extent is work on elastic search being shared between Koha and Evergreen?
21:16 cait          circ might work well, while some tool doesn't
21:16 cait          also the problem is that a single library will never use all features
21:16 ashimema      yeah.. good point cait.
21:16 cait          hm he said something about having to restart it or something?
21:15 ashimema      I thought paul_p had it running somewhere.. surprised he's not pointed out the search issues
21:15 rangi         the intranet needs a ton more testing
21:15 eythian_      but when it works, it works really nicely.
21:15 gmcharlt      that confirms my suspicions
21:15 rangi         the opac, apart from that problem works well
21:15 rangi         yes
21:15 ashimema      so.. in short it needs a bit more thought and testing
21:14 mtompset      or read.
21:14 eythian_      Ideally we'd build the proxy into the install.
21:14 mtompset      Hmmm... that reminds me of a patch I recently signed off.
21:14 rangi         (but nicer obviously)
21:13 rangi         http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=459c750e4b0aa0fe5dba601e423e78070383b97b;hp=2c9581f75fdb1f76e60c83f86e253cb4dfe04597
21:13 rangi         you need something like this
21:13 rangi         however for the search to work consistently
21:12 rangi         thats it
21:12 eythian_      ^-- there
21:12 eythian_      http://git.catalyst.net.nz/gw?p=koha-plack.git
21:12 ashimema      cheers.
21:12 rangi         2 secs
21:12 rangi         on git.catalyst
21:11 eythian_      hmm, not sure where it lives.
21:11 eythian_      no wait
21:11 eythian_      https://github.com/mkfifo/koha-gitify <-- ashimema
21:11 ashimema      would hapily help with testing here.
21:11 rangi         only the opac tho
21:11 ashimema      cool.. eythian.. any chance of sharing that?
21:10 eythian_      we do have a handy script that'll turn a regular package installation into a plack installation.
21:10 ashimema      ooh. not thought of either of those points.
21:10 rangi         thats exactly it
21:10 gmcharlt      so users can run into a backend that has lost its Zebra connectin
21:10 gmcharlt      in particular, zebrasrv will time out connections, but there's apparently no good way for the ZOOM API to detect that
21:09 eythian_      i.e. if you have 10 workers sitting around, and 10 sites on there, that's going to end up with 100 workers running, and no memory.
21:09 gmcharlt      another issue that rangi has mentioned, but which I'm not sure is in a bug yet, is management of connections to Zebra
21:09 ashimema      it was, however, mostly aimed at making plack more easily installable and therfore testable.. I don't know if it's the 'best' way of doing it, or how it plays with packages.
21:09 eythian_      from a packaging point of view, it's close but there is one major issue with it that I haven't tried to solve yet, and that's that it won't do shared sites well at all at the moment.
21:08 ashimema      It's not in bad shape really.. probably a worthwhile one to work through for getting plack easily usable by all
21:08 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9316 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Needs Signoff , Add Nginx install options with plack
21:08 ashimema      I looked over my notes for bug 9316 as promised at the earlier meeting.
21:07 gmcharlt      #info is there a reasonable Plack configuration that we could include in 3.16, and encourage as a first-class install option?
21:07 gmcharlt      is there a reasonable Plack configuration that we could include in 3.16, and encourage as a first-class install option?
21:07 gmcharlt      I'm passing over the UNIMARC questions and repeating this one:
21:07 gmcharlt      #topic RM questions
21:07 rangi         ill cover mine when we get to elasticsearch
21:07 gmcharlt      ok
21:05 gmcharlt      any other announcements folks care to make?
21:05 ashimema      everybody love saving kitten mtompset
21:05 mtompset      thank you.
21:05 gmcharlt      mtompset: resucing patches in failed QA or does not aply status
21:05 mtompset      -- kitten rescue?
21:05 jcamins       #info Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services
21:05 wahanui       i already had it that way, gmcharlt.
21:05 gmcharlt      #info the hackfest in Marseille is 10-14 March
21:04 rangi         cool
21:04 gmcharlt      #info end of tomorrow will be cutoff for new passed QA until the hackfest in Marseille, QA team to focus on sign offs and kitten rescue
21:04 gmcharlt      #info gmcharlt will be clearing the passed QA queue prior to the beginning of the hackfest in Marseille
21:04 gmcharlt      #topic Announcements
21:04 gmcharlt      ok, I'm going to recap announcements from the previous meeting
21:03 cait          #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ
21:03 ashimema      #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS-Europe, UK
21:02 thd           #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
21:02 rangi         #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
21:01 JesseM        #info Jesse Maseto - ByWater
21:01 eythian_      #info Robin Sheat, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
21:01 gmcharlt      #info gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, 3.16 RM, Equinox, USA
21:01 mtompset      #info Mark Tompsett
21:01 wahanui       #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
21:01 gmcharlt      #topic Introductions
21:01 gmcharlt      #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Developers_IRC_Meeting,_February_25,_2014
21:01 huginn`       The meeting name has been set to 'koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_21_00_utc'
21:01 huginn`       Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
21:01 huginn`       Meeting started Tue Feb 25 21:01:00 2014 UTC.  The chair is gmcharlt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:01 gmcharlt      #startmeeting Koha Dev Meeting, 25 February 2014 21:00 UTC
21:00 thd           eythinan_: yes
21:00 cait          yep eythian
21:00 gmcharlt      thd: same agenda
20:59 eythian_      There's a meeting thing about now, right?
20:59 thd           gmcharlt: Is the second half of the meeting intended to have a partly different agenda or merely serve a different timezone?
20:55 wajasu        how about some cookies
20:54 ashimema      coolios..
20:53 jcamins       It falls back to non-QP existing code if it can't handle the query, yeah.
20:53 ashimema      pqf, but falls back to ccl for a number of cases does it not?
20:52 ashimema      cheers mate
20:52 ashimema      i remeber you exmplaining it.. but don't remeber which tla was which ;)
20:52 jcamins       PQF.
20:52 ashimema      or was is cql.. or forget.. jcamins care to pipe up ;)
20:51 * rangi       gets coffee
20:51 gmcharlt      second half of the meeting starts in 9 minutes
20:51 gmcharlt      yep
20:51 ashimema      QP uses pqf right?
20:50 ashimema      of course.. that makes sense
20:50 gmcharlt      #3 isn't quite true if QP is on
20:50 ashimema      yup
20:49 jcamins       You could update the existing page by copying in your text. I think the existing page is mostly just a copy of things that were said in IRC.
20:48 ashimema      is it worth me sanitizing my zebra page and sticking it in the wiki proper then?.. there is a page on there that already attempts to explain it.. but it's a bit less 'clear'
20:45 ashimema      well.. with any luck we'll be withdraing non-dom support.. then i don't have to bother trying ot keep the two configs synced ;)
20:44 jcamins       gmcharlt: eh, I have had nowhere near enough problems to justify complexifying it, just observing that it can happen.
20:44 ashimema      mostly I was pulling accross customisations for customers during upgrades.. so the changes had been made pre-dom.
20:44 * jcamins     has versions of the Zebra indexdefs that are handwritten, alas.
20:44 gmcharlt      jcamins: complexifying patches welcome ;)
20:43 gmcharlt      though as is common with XML formats, I wouldn't be surprised if the verbosity gets in the way for a lot of folks
20:43 jcamins       Sometimes a little too simple, alas.
20:43 ashimema      lol.. i've barely ever opened the file..
20:43 ashimema      hense why I use the script, then vimdiff with my backup.. it works well enough.
20:43 jcamins       It's very simple.
20:43 gmcharlt      it's not that complicated
20:43 ashimema      yeah.. I've never taken the time to understand koha-indexdef.xml well enough to edit it directly yet though jcamins ;)
20:43 * jcamins     shudders at the thought.
20:43 jcamins       The problem is that running that first command could be very, very bad. Especially if you have a large database, and decide to reindex.
20:42 jcamins       It's just the first part of that step that's bad.
20:42 jcamins       ashimema: you have to edit koha-indexdefs.xml and then generate the xsl from that.
20:42 rangi         heh
20:42 ashimema      lol.. I almost got a job with them before koha ;)
20:41 rangi         sorry gchq
20:41 ashimema      indeed
20:41 ashimema      ok.. I'll have a go at updating the docs
20:41 cait          ?
20:41 rangi         ashimema: just making the GHCQ's job easier
20:41 ashimema      dang..
20:41 barton        ashimema actually, I *am* using DOM.
20:41 ashimema      and.. the formatting would be nicer if it community ran up to date mediawiki.. there's folding and all sorts on that page.. but it doesn't work with community version of mediawiki ;)
20:40 ashimema      unfortunately our 'private wiki' has turned into my personal brain dump now as they the company decided to switch to google sites (which is horrible)
20:40 ashimema      yeah.. I like wiki's ;)
20:39 ashimema      jcamins.. how would you go and update dom configs now then.. (i still use those scripts, then diff their output with a backup of the original copying across the extra's form the old to the new)
20:39 jcamins       cait: it does.
20:39 * cait        thinks that page has nicer formatting than most of our other pages
20:38 * ashimema    goes and cleans out the dom bit of that page.
20:38 ashimema      barton: jcamins is right.. if your using grs-1 it's fine.. jsut ignore the dom extra's.. if your want dom. ask hree for further clarification
20:38 jcamins       The rest of it's right.
20:38 cait          no confusion :)
20:38 cait          maybe just delete the part about dom for now?
20:37 ashimema      not meant to be a 'public' per say page..
20:37 ashimema      yeah.. needs more thinking through.. but I was hoping to just get the point of ccl.properties accross really..
20:35 jcamins       That just tells you to make a few manual changes after regenerating the DOM config.
20:35 ashimema      checking now..
20:35 jcamins       Wrong page, I think.
20:35 ashimema      or did i copy the wrong page from our internal wiki.
20:34 ashimema      there are further notes as to why that's a bad idea..
20:34 jcamins       That step instructs you to run make_zebra_dom_cfg_from_record_abs.
20:34 jcamins       ashimema: ummm... step two of the additional steps for DOM indexing is not so good.
20:33 jcamins       NOOOOOOO!!!!
20:33 rangi         https://soundcloud.com/loopcrew/08-love-and-not-the-lesson  <-- paul mclaney .. but this time with module who is from island bay (my suburb)
20:33 barton        ashimema++
20:32 ashimema      barton: here's my zebra braindump in a more edible format: http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/MRenvoize/zebra
20:29 * cait        is also listening to it :)
20:28 ashimema      rangi: awesome song.
20:27 cait          ashimema++ :)
20:27 ashimema      barton.. pming you my notes anyways.  they're rather concise.. it took me ages to work them out.
20:25 ashimema      cool
20:25 ashimema      tasty ragu
20:25 barton        ashimema: I actually found something on this -- http://manual.koha-community.org/3.6/en/searchguide.html
20:25 ashimema      pressure cookers are great.. 2 hours dinner cooked in minutes !
20:25 cait          ashimema: don#t forget your dinner!
20:24 ashimema      barton.. just diggin out my notes on that
20:24 ashimema      nice..
20:24 cait          but others will know better :)
20:24 cait          mapping the bib1 attribute to the index?
20:24 cait          hm i think
20:22 rangi         mrenvoize: https://soundcloud.com/high-rankin/high-rankin-the-eye-feat-paul  <-- nz/uk collaboration
20:21 mrenvoize     but yeah.. the staff client scheduling has never worked since i've been working with koha.. though I'de love to see that change... it's on my todo list.. but not very high up it
20:21 barton        I'm tryiing to get an understanding of what the file 'ccl.properties' does. http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Understanding_Zebra_indexing only says "for searching purposes".
20:20 mrenvoize     you can do this in both packages and dev installs
20:18 wajasu        it doesn't look like it should work as it is now.  i'm looking ate tools/scheduler.pl on master and its still got EXPORT in caps.
20:18 jcamins       Certainly when I started using Koha in 2009 I was told that the feature didn't work.
20:18 jcamins       oleonard: I don't think that's ever worked.
20:16 cait          but i think you can't do it from th einterface, only manually adding a cronjob maybe?
20:16 cait          but i think _ashimema might know something
20:16 cait          it did never work for me
20:16 oleonard      So... scheduling saved reports. Is that simply not working? Or am I missing something?
20:15 mrenvoize     ack
20:15 * mrenvoize   goes off to read the bug
20:14 cait          because needs to be changed there too? not sure
20:14 cait          hm maybe it was packages
20:14 mrenvoize     I remember reading through that bug.. whats holding it up, I can't remember
20:13 cait          would be good to see that moving too
20:13 rangi         yeah we need to finish that bug
20:13 cait          it already gives me trouble with ubuntu on my laptop
20:13 cait          i am a bit worried about the new apache version
20:13 mrenvoize     i'm thinking a followup would be needed to ensure compatability with packages mind.. but then the patch i'm thinking of was only ever originally designed for testing purposes.
20:12 cait          :)
20:11 _ashimema     been looking over my nginx/plack testing.. that patch isn't in bad shape actually.. with a medium amount of effort it should be ready for signoff/qa
20:11 cait          it's really cool :)
20:10 _ashimema     thanks cait ;)
20:09 cait          ashimema++ and ptfs_europe++
20:05 _ashimema     ;)
20:05 gmcharlt      ashimema: ah cool, I wasn't aware of that
20:04 * mtompset    is putting on his chauffeur hat.
20:03 ashimema      right.. time for some dinner before the next meetins
20:03 ashimema      gmcharlt.. ptfs europe host a few sandboxes now too.. I've added a umber for the hackfest..
20:02 ashimema      but yes.. a demo is differnt to a sandbox.. ours just hapens to be running upon a sandbox so always follwoing master ;)
20:02 gmcharlt      the BL sandboxes are desgined to let somebody claim one, apply a patch series from a bug, and test it
20:02 gmcharlt      yes
20:02 ashimema      We gave up on our demo site.. it now 'is' one of our sandbox instances ;)
20:02 mtompset      Are sandboxes different than demos?
20:01 oleonard      mtompset: I am aware of the sandboxes.
20:01 mtompset      http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Sandboxes#Available_Sandboxes
20:01 huginn`       ashimema: The operation succeeded.
20:01 ashimema      @later tell marcelr You asked about SRU with DOM.. the bug I was thinking about was bug 9612
19:59 oleonard      I don't know what you mean mtompset
19:53 mtompset      oleonard: How does that tie in with http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Sandboxes
19:50 oleonard      Until then I beseech someone to test to see if suspending an individual hold in the OPAC works correctly
19:49 oleonard      http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Demo_Installations
19:49 oleonard      Hey all o' y'all gotta get your demos up and running and/or up to date and/or containing bibliographic holdings. Thanks.
19:48 Joubu         have a good meeting everyone, see you tomorrow
19:48 Joubu         good luck
19:48 Joubu         So, I hope you will be more productive than "us" too :)
19:48 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11694 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Needs Signoff , Improve handling of individual hold suspension in Bootstrap OPAC
19:48 wajasu        maybe you saw 000-00-00 when working bug 11694?
19:47 Joubu         rangi: I am often grumpy, but I know git rebase --onto, and it does not help me very much (a lot of patches with several branches to maintain).
19:47 rangi         *nod*
19:44 gmcharlt      so that patch appears to signal a problem with that module
19:44 gmcharlt      oleonard: rangi: use of Koha::DateUtils is more idiomatic, nowaways
19:42 rangi         Joubu: not just you, just the general tone
19:41 wajasu        ok. so null is fine then.
19:41 oleonard      wajasu: A hold can either be suspended until a certain date or indefinitely
19:41 Joubu         rangi: do you think I was whiny? :)
19:41 wajasu        so maybe the null is getting transformed to 000-00-00 in some other hold processing code, and what we need to do is validate the input field.
19:39 wajasu        well, with my selection of a date from the widget.    i just saved with a blank field though and its null.
19:38 oleonard      wajasu: You suspended the holds and it saved a valid date?
19:38 rangi         oleonard: yep exactly what i would have done, im just not sure about the state of C4::Dates
19:37 mtompset      wajasu++ # wanting to support an SIL font. ;)
19:37 wajasu        i placed a hold with and without your patch and i queried reserves and got the same behavior.
19:36 oleonard      rangi: I simply looked for date-handling code which worked that I could steal.
19:35 huginn`       04Bug 11702: normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Needs Signoff , Can't specify date for automatic resumption of suspended hold
19:35 rangi         oh yeah i wastnt sure about that, gmcharlt http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11702#c2
19:35 oleonard      wajasu: It doesn't have to do with manual date entry
19:34 oleonard      Oh I hadn't seen rangi's comment on that bug.
19:31 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11702 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Needs Signoff , Can't specify date for automatic resumption of suspended hold
19:31 cait          bug 11702
19:31 cait          bu 11702
19:31 cait          but 11702
19:31 rangi         oleonard: loving the datatables patches, they are great for getting the high school kids to test with the sandbox, 3 more yesterday :)
19:31 wajasu        oleonard: i mean ^^^
19:30 wajasu        oleanard: i was testing 11702, and it seems to work without the patch.  i just used the calendar widget to select the suspend-until date. does it have to do with manual date entry?
19:25 rangi         hmm could be worth a try
19:24 magnuse       maybe "announce the positions" on the mailinglist?
19:24 rangi         because its really hard to find stuff unless you know what you are after
19:24 magnuse       yeah, that would be super cool
19:24 rangi         to become curators of the wiki
19:24 magnuse       http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Tips_and_tricks
19:24 rangi         what we do need is a librarian or 3
19:23 rangi         im not sure people ever read the wiki ;)
19:23 magnuse       put it on the wiki? :-)
19:23 rangi         makes life a lot easier
19:23 rangi         running local branches, with small commits, then merge squash to attach etc
19:22 rangi         yep
19:22 cait          using it to manage our few customisations
19:22 * cait        loves it :)
19:22 cait          for easier rebasing?
19:21 rangi         maybe i need to show people rebase -i --onto sometime
19:15 wajasu        folks wanting stuff with no plan of action for every wish mentioned.
19:14 mtompset      whiny?
19:10 rangi         hopefully round 2 will be less whiny and more productive
19:07 cait          morning rangi
19:06 * rangi       reads the log
19:03 magnuse       yoyoyo
19:03 pianohacker   yo
18:30 gaetan_B      bye !
18:27 cait          :)
18:27 * cait        is back
18:22 wajasu        i'm trying to place ahold in the OPAC.  I have all the admin settings on.  where does a link or button show up for placing a hold.
18:08 mtompset      Okay good. Because I have to leave at 5:30pm EST.
18:07 gmcharlt      I'll be trying to keep the second one closder to 1
18:06 gmcharlt      about 1.5 hours
18:05 mtompset      How long did the first one go, gmcharlt?
18:05 mtompset      Ah, 4pm EST, okay.
18:04 gmcharlt      pianohacker is the primary dev on that project
18:03 wajasu        who is doing the marc editor in javascript?
18:03 fridolin      I'm on Lubuntu, you should try it, it realy light and so powerfull
18:03 wajasu        3pm CST
18:03 mtompset      when is that?
18:03 gmcharlt      mtompset: you can have another go during the second part of the meeting
18:02 wajasu        i just tweek a preseed.cfg script for different distro, and I sshfs /home/koha/kohaclone to my archlinux host, so I can git clone and use my tools on my host OS.
18:02 mtompset      oh shoot... did I miss the DBIx meeting stuff?
18:02 tcohen        bye #koha
18:00 wajasu        i run on archlinux, but i create a VM doing an automated debian install.
18:00 gmcharlt      I've seen just one too many setup have issues because they ran out of disk space
18:00 wajasu        yes.  but I use a script to create new VMs and can adjust the size.
18:00 mtompset      wajasu: Also, are you using Ubuntu? I thought you were some crazy thing like arch linux.
18:00 gmcharlt      but absent cases where one really cannot get more spaces, I still prefer recommending a little high
17:59 mtompset      wajasu: But then your data set must be microscopic.
17:59 gmcharlt      my perspective may be a bit skewed
17:59 gmcharlt      heh
17:59 * tcohen      knows storage space is expensive
17:58 wajasu        they were creating a VM.  i have one now at 4G and am at 91% full.   I'm sure they put 6GB so as not to hava VM thats too big.
17:58 mtompset      I can't wait until 14.04 comes out. I love new LTS releases. :)
17:57 mtompset      So, I redid what they patched, but with 20GB.
17:57 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11830 minor, P5 - low, ---, mtompset, Needs Signoff , Document disk space requirements for git install on Ubuntu
17:57 mtompset      So they created bug 11830, and I pointed out that I've got a 15GB VM and only have 2.7G free now.
17:56 mtompset      The reason I ask is because someone thought, "Oh, 4GB should be enough for an Ubuntu install with a Koha git install," and discovered it wasn't.
17:53 gmcharlt      but generally disk is cheap
17:53 gmcharlt      heck, not even toy, a small library can live on 20G
17:53 gmcharlt      mtompset: one can go lower for a toy database, but there's a point where I  prefer not to encourage people to skimp too m9uch on disk space
17:52 wajasu        probably add http to /etc/at.allow and such.  its got some other problem.  got to debug.
17:51 mtompset      I vaguely remember having to do something I didn't want to do in order to get it to run.
17:51 mtompset      wajasu: Doesn't that task scheduler use at?
17:49 mtompset      Is 20GB a good recommendation for minimal disk space required?
17:43 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=1993 major, P3, ---, sophie.meynieux, In Discussion , Task Scheduler Needs Re-write
17:43 wajasu        i'm not sure bug 1993 is working.  at least not for me on master.
17:43 oleonard      wajasu: http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&list_id=90381&namedcmd=Needs%20Signoff&remaction=run&sharer_id=1
17:42 wajasu        if anyone sees something testable I should try or rescue just give me a bg number
17:40 wajasu        Hiya!
17:40 mtompset      Greetings, wajasu Joubu. :)
17:39 mtompset      Greetings, gmcharlt tcohen oleonard.
17:39 mtompset      Sweet!
17:38 tcohen        he gave me the rights
17:38 gmcharlt      cool
17:38 tcohen        i coordinated it with the original author
17:37 gmcharlt      were you able to reach the original maintainer at all, or did you have to request a takeover from CPAN?
17:37 tcohen        there wasn't any, i started a gitorious one
17:37 gmcharlt      tcohen: where does the source repo for it live, nowadyas?
17:36 reiveune      bye
17:36 gmcharlt      tcohen++
17:35 gmcharlt      in this case, I suspect that a bit more verbosity may help us in the long run
17:35 gmcharlt      oleonard: I just sent an email to koha-devel about it
17:32 huginn`       tcohen: The operation succeeded.
17:32 tcohen        @later tell eythian I've just released a patched Memoize::Memcached. Its my first CPAN contribution and is a trivial patch. Would you take a look at it and comment on problem you find?
17:31 oleonard      try to pick the least verbose config for each case
17:30 oleonard      I
17:30 oleonard      Yeah gmcharlt that method is used in some places I think.
17:26 gmcharlt      and to answer my question - looks like yes, via aoColumnDefs/aTargets
17:23 gmcharlt      http://datatables.net/ is what I'm referring to
17:23 gmcharlt      YUI is dead to us
17:23 wajasu        if this is the library we use http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/api/classes/DataTable.Sortable.html  i believe so.  then we won't have bugs creep up when columns added.
17:21 * gmcharlt    wonders if DataTables can be induced to let one specify sortable columns by (say) header row ID or class rather than numeric postion
17:17 * oleonard    will take a look
17:17 gmcharlt      and thanks for fixing my typo ;)
17:17 gmcharlt      Joubu: thanks for testing it
17:16 gmcharlt      oleonard: do you want to apply some styling to it now?
17:14 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10865 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, In Discussion , Don't show list permissions when adding public lists/sharing lists is not allowed
17:14 Joubu         gmcharlt: The patch you proposed on bug 10865 looks good to me, good catch!
17:14 mtompset      Greetings, #koha.
17:11 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11803 trivial, P5 - low, ---, m.de.rooy, Pushed to Master , Consistent use of $dbh in _koha_modify_item
17:11 jenkins_koha  Marcel de Rooy: Bug 11803: use $dbh consistently in _koha_modify_item
17:11 jenkins_koha  Project Koha_master build #1644: SUCCESS in 2 hr 1 min: http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_master/1644/
17:07 wahanui       oleonard: I forgot plugin
17:07 oleonard      wahanui: forget a plugin
17:07 wahanui       a plugin is jquery.qtip.js. It's used somewhere in budgets admin I think
17:07 wajasu        ok.  a plugin.
17:07 gmcharlt      e.g., t/db_dependent/Koha_template_plugin_Branches.t
17:06 gmcharlt      wajasu: actually, I don't think it's any harder to write test cases for template plugins
17:06 wajasu        i have the same problem trying to schedule.  let me look at the code.
17:06 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11837 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , generation of template-variables used by members-toolbar.inc should be centralized
17:06 gmcharlt      bug 11837 is similar
17:04 wajasu        oleonard: let me try in my environment. I was working on some yesterday.
17:03 wajasu        i'd go with the later option, since its presentation specfic.  But if you want a test written, the class you mentioned might be easier to write one for.
17:03 oleonard      I'm trying to test saved reports with some data in the "saved results" column and I don't know what to do. I successfully scheduled a report but it doesn't seem to have run.
17:00 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11836 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , population of template variables used by cat-toolbar.inc should be centralized
17:00 gmcharlt      I would appreciate feedback on bug 11836, as I see a couple different directions for centralizing the cataloging toolbar management code
16:58 wajasu        atq lists jobs
16:58 wajasu        http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_atq.htm
16:57 wajasu        atq i believe is the linux "at" command for running a one time job with cron.
16:56 oleonard      Is the task scheduler run via cron job?
16:54 wajasu        as is the case for http://library.redeemerseminary.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=16081&query_desc=kw,wrdl:%20vines
16:54 thd           druthb: Is my question about record editor presentation in right to left languages clear?
16:52 wajasu        cait.  i was able to make the xslt subject headings an html list, but ran into the complex case where 505a  was a big chunk of  subjects delimited by -- in a format note. So i did not have time to get into search/replace coding in xslt.
16:50 thd           druthb: Is the problem for MARC in right to left languages really one of lack of granularity for how Koha had been treating right to left for the record editor in particular?
16:47 cait          oleonard: i never got around that :(
16:47 thd           druthb: Should the content of the textual subfields, however, not be right to left within the individual subfield while the record as a whole and coded non-textual subfields would be left to right?
16:47 oleonard      Oh, and I see an error in the log: "You do not have permission to use atq."
16:47 oleonard      I get "Failed to add scheduled task" when I try to do so.
16:47 oleonard      Is there something I need to enable in order to be able to schedule reports?
16:45 thd           druthb: You were told that a MARC display should be generally left to right for MARC even when cataloguing in a right to left language, if I understood correctly.
16:45 vfernandes    i was afraid of that
16:44 vfernandes    damn it :D
16:44 cait          vfernandes: currently it's totally divdided or all together,not much in between
16:44 wajasu        somebody give me something to test/signoff on.  i am having a hard time finding things that aren't in some state of gridlock.
16:44 cait          vfernandes: you could add another account, but apart from that you will have to wait for some features that khall was working on
16:44 thd           druthb: I am interested in further clarification on the right to left language issue for MARC.
16:42 druthb        for some value of "here"
16:42 thd           druthb: are you now here?
16:42 * cait        cheers ashimema on
16:40 thd           gmcharlt: Thank you, that was the answer which I was seeking.
16:40 vfernandes    ?
16:40 vfernandes    can I give a librarian access to more than 1 library using independentbranches on=
16:40 gmcharlt      thd: it is one of several criteria that could lead to a patch being rejected or deferred if it is judged to impose to much debt
16:40 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11096 major, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, Signed Off , Koha cannot retrieve big records from Zebra
16:39 * ashimema    heads off to QA bug 11096
16:39 wajasu        did we every try getting Test::DBIx::Class::SchemaManager::Trait::Testmysqld  or Test::DBIx::Class::SchemaManager::Trait::Testpostgresql   running?
16:37 vfernandes    ps: UNIMARC is common in Portugal :)
16:37 thd           gmcharlt: I am trying to discover what practical effect considering 'technical debt' is intended to have on prospective patches.
16:36 vfernandes    it is possible?
16:36 vfernandes    for example I have an installation with 5 independent libraries... but to a librarian I want to give access to 3 of that 5 libraries
16:36 thd           gmcharlt: I should have stated that I read and understood the Martin Fowler explanation of a well acknowledged problem.
16:36 vfernandes    can I give a librarian access to a group of libraries
16:35 cait          which is not quite there yet :)
16:35 vfernandes    with independentbranches on the librarian can only edit items of her librarian
16:35 cait          and ES will be Elastic search
16:35 wahanui       rumour has it portugal is nice and an entry point in Europe
16:35 jcamins       cait: Portugal.
16:35 cait          UNIMARC is like MARC21 - just a bit different and used mostly in France and I think Spain?
16:34 gmcharlt      thd: however, I encourage you to read and ponder the Martin Fowler piece and the links from it first
16:34 cait          rhcl: and you can already have that now :)
16:34 ashimema      vfernandes.. go ahead..
16:34 wajasu        vfernandes: yes
16:34 gmcharlt      thd: and consideration should be given to avoding that
16:34 cait          rhcl: you can type them or not type them, both will find what you are looking for
16:33 gmcharlt      thd: that sort of technical debt is a tax on the ability of developers to add new features in the future
16:33 vfernandes    can I ask now? :P
16:33 cait          rhcl: I think you mean ICU - that would fix the accents
16:33 thd           gmcharlt: Do we hold back patches for minor incremental improvements pending a change in architecture?
16:33 gmcharlt      thd: in a nutshell - there is the possibility that a particular implementation of a new idea may inevitably incur more than the usual amount of cleanup required later
16:33 rhcl          cait: quite possibly
16:33 ashimema      gmcharlt.. will take a look.
16:32 cait          rhcl: i think you might be confusing things :)
16:32 thd           gmcharlt: Please help me to understand a little better the consequence of giving consideration to technical debt in Koha.
16:31 rhcl          gmcharlt: RHCL generally supports the move to Unimarc as long as most of the user-end effects are textual. Currently we have to manually remove accent marks, especially in ES, when entering data.
16:31 huginn`       Log:            http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_15_00_utc.2014-02-25-14.59.log.html
16:31 huginn`       Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_15_00_utc.2014-02-25-14.59.txt
16:31 huginn`       Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community.org/2014/koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_15_00_utc.2014-02-25-14.59.html
16:31 huginn`       Meeting ended Tue Feb 25 16:31:29 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
16:31 gmcharlt      #endmeeting
16:31 gmcharlt      OK
16:31 gmcharlt      ashimema: please find out
16:30 ashimema      sure I could offer ours if that's the case
16:30 paul_p        all hackfest attendees can share the same HG, so it could work
16:30 ashimema      think you can get around the limit using a google apps for business account?
16:29 gmcharlt      given the limit, yes
16:29 Joubu         there is a limitation at 9 users on hg I think
16:29 paul_p        ashimema in BibLibre office, we can HG on a projector
16:29 gmcharlt      possibliy both IRC and Hangout
16:29 ashimema      we can work that out closer to the time though me thinks.
16:29 ashimema      hangout on big screen maybe?
16:29 gmcharlt      #agreed Next dev meeting will be at 15UTC/21UTC on 12 March 2014 (pending confirmation from the second half of today's meeting)
16:29 cait          how many hanging out can the wifi support? :)
16:29 tcohen        hangout++
16:28 ashimema      hangout +1
16:28 paul_p        IRC or hangout ?
16:28 gmcharlt      paul_p: I'll rely on you to manage the chatterboxes in Marseille ;)
16:28 paul_p        +1 then
16:28 ashimema      don't want to eat into hacking time too long ;)
16:28 gmcharlt      paul_p: yeah
16:28 wajasu        +1
16:27 ashimema      for a hour..
16:27 ashimema      +1
16:27 matts         +1
16:27 paul_p        gmcharlt = will the meeting last 1 hour ?
16:27 marcelr       +1
16:27 Joubu         +1
16:27 ashimema      +1
16:27 cait          +1
16:27 tcohen        +1
16:27 ashimema      :p
16:27 oleonard      +1
16:26 thd           +1
16:26 gmcharlt      ashimema: so you whispered it? ;)
16:26 ashimema      light-heartedly
16:26 gmcharlt      but can I have some initial +1/-1 on the date?
16:26 cait          Joubu: for things in QA t might help to communicate - we communcate where we start with QA and then you can stop rebasing the other sin the meantime, if that would help
16:26 ashimema      clrh, it was meant lightheardedly..
16:26 gmcharlt      I can bring up the schedulign question at the 5 March meeting
16:25 gmcharlt      thd: http://martinfowler.com/bliki/TechnicalDebt.html
16:25 thd           gmcharlt: Do you mean that many small changes are difficult to push now because attention needs to be concentrated fixing historic problems?
16:25 clrh          ashimema: talking about disagreements and trying explain ourselves about what we live everyday is not a war I think :)
16:24 gmcharlt      15:00 UTC and 21:00 UTC on 12 March 2014 for the next dev meeting?
16:24 ashimema      agreed
16:24 gmcharlt      but let's pause a minute and settle the meeting time
16:24 gmcharlt      cait: he had; a bit more is needed, which was what I was aiming for but didn't get to
16:24 cait          I think we need to get better at communicating in general - and communicating early on
16:24 marcelr       remember he proposed another cpan module
16:23 cait          i think rangi tried to show some code on how to do it different
16:23 Joubu         cait: yes, there were concerns, but no proposition :)
16:23 gmcharlt      the C4 => Koha switch is an example of a project to try to pay off some of that debt
16:23 gmcharlt      thd: bascially, deferred technical maintenance on a codebase
16:23 thd           s/ment/meant/
16:23 ashimema      sorry.. didn't mean to start a war ;)
16:22 Joubu         gmcharlt: I am quite reactive, I think. And I can provide follow-up quickly if it is needed. It is really hard to maintain 80 patches and to rebase them every weeks.
16:22 thd           gmcharlt: What is mnt by 'technical debt'?
16:22 gmcharlt      and room for valid disagreement
16:22 gmcharlt      but I recognize that there's a balance
16:22 ashimema      that we do..
16:22 gmcharlt      I woudl argue that we've incurred much more of it than we need to because of being a bit too willing to push anything that reaches us
16:22 marcelr       :)
16:22 wajasu        we have alot of debt
16:22 gmcharlt      please consider the concept of technical debt
16:21 gmcharlt      Joubu: this is where we have a disagreement
16:21 ashimema      too many ways to skin a cat.
16:21 Joubu         gmcharlt: if it is not perfect, it could be improve later
16:21 clrh          for me adding value for a user a developper is time won - if it is better than today, what is the problem ?
16:21 cait          as a lot of people have expressed concerns on the implementation
16:21 Joubu         gmcharlt: In my opinion, if a patch improves the existing code/behavior, it is worth pushing it.
16:21 cait          clrh: i think the statsu shoudl probably have been In Discussion
16:21 marcelr       sounds more like In Discussion than Failed QA
16:21 gmcharlt      clrh: long-term supportability matters too, and in this case, there are better ways to do it
16:20 ashimema      okies.. no worries.. jsut wondered on status and thought today a good time to give it a nudge ;)
16:20 clrh          gmcharlt: depends the point of view
16:20 gmcharlt      ashimema: yes; time has gotten away form me
16:20 gmcharlt      clrh: adding value isn't the only criteria
16:20 Joubu         gmcharlt: I didn't reinvent CPAN module, I used Log::LogLite anyway
16:20 wajasu        i was looking at Badger  maybe Badger::Log
16:20 ashimema      gmcharlt, clrh: I'd love to see some decent logging in koha.. my recollection was that gmcharlt was going to post an counter proposal..
16:19 gmcharlt      Joubu: IMO yes, and I apologize for not being more direct about it
16:19 clrh          gmcharlt: but it adds value no ?
16:19 Joubu         gmcharlt: so the status is failed qa?
16:19 ashimema      not yet.. I'll put one up soon iminently.. was one of those things.. I started playing around with it and got lost in the details.
16:18 gmcharlt      clrh: and to be blunt - it needs work; IMO a logging module that does not include syslog support right away, and reinvents standard CPAN modules, was problematic
16:18 matts         ashimema, do you already have a BZ for that work ?
16:18 cait          paul_p: wed or thu sound good to me too
16:17 gmcharlt      ashimema: Joubu: great, that's exactly the sort of thing I want to see
16:17 clrh          ashimema: passed qa for 8 months what are you looking for ? Joubu worked on this bz
16:17 gmcharlt      does 15:00 UTC on 12 March work, then?
16:17 ashimema      Joubu.. we should chat.. I've been following the various open bugs and merging in stuff.. but my work is high refactoring so didn't want to publicise it untill at least some of it works ;)
16:17 paul_p        wed or thu = we're full power :D
16:17 paul_p        tuesday = let's start
16:16 paul_p        monday = not everybody here. friday= some already left.
16:16 paul_p        gmcharlt not monday nor friday. I would say wed
16:16 paul_p        gmcharlt HG++, we use it all the time,
16:16 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8190 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Passed QA , Add a logging module to Koha
16:16 ashimema      question: is anyone working towards bug 8190 going in?
16:16 Joubu         (patron import tools)
16:16 Joubu         ashimema: we have worked on that too
16:16 gmcharlt      are there any days that are best during hackfest?
16:15 gmcharlt      maybe include Google Hangout and the like as an option
16:15 paul_p        yep, another meeting diring the hackfest is a good idea
16:15 gmcharlt      the immediate question is my proposal to hold a follow-up dev IRC meeting during hackfest
16:15 paul_p        sorry, was with my kids. reading the logs...
16:15 wajasu        aybe for plack it might be doable to support/use systemd for servers, and that might give us a watchdog to restart our server if it crashes.
16:13 gmcharlt      paul_p: what say you?
16:13 ashimema      gmcharlt.. a followup during hackfest sounds like a pretty good idea.
16:13 wajasu        i want to add font configuration support for  unicode fonts that support many languages like gentium/SIL and that can be used to print labels (TTF) as dobrivica is promoting.
16:13 gmcharlt      :)
16:13 cait          i think if it's not too late and interfering with lunch...
16:12 ashimema      I've been working on a refactoring of the patron import tools.. to introduce a command line version.. but it's not close to ready yet..
16:12 gmcharlt      as far as follow-up, are folks amenable to an IRC meeting during hackfest?
16:12 gmcharlt      #info There will be a second running of today's meeting at 21:00 UTC
16:12 gmcharlt      #topic Follow-up
16:12 gmcharlt      and I think we can leave it at that
16:11 gmcharlt      #info what big Koha dev projects have people been working on that they might like to get included soon, that they haven't really publicized or made avaialble for early testing
16:11 cait          we are using wheezy, i just checked
16:11 gmcharlt      clrh: what I"m looking for is this, basically
16:10 gmcharlt      as far as Pg, it will be more better in 3.16, but I don't expect it to be a first-class option prior to 3.18 at the earliest
16:10 ashimema      wajasu, we've updated lots of squeeze to wheezy.. none had any issues.
16:10 wajasu        I am running mariadb on archlinux now so can test that.
16:10 clrh          gmcharlt: not sure to understand what you are waiting for with this topic
16:10 gmcharlt      MariaDB is already a valid option, IMO
16:10 gmcharlt      and they should do so soon, as Squeeze will be going away
16:10 gmcharlt      wajasu: I don't know of any particular blockers for folks to upgrade to Wheezy
16:09 gmcharlt      (they're important, though, I'm not trying to minimize that)
16:09 gmcharlt      most of Joubu's aren't quite so "large"
16:09 cait          gmcharlt: i think another thing we need to fix eventually is the apache configuration for the new apache version
16:09 gmcharlt      but basically, something that isn't just an incremental additional to existing functionality
16:09 marcelr       wajasu: isn't that linked to the dbic efforts..
16:08 cait          thd: but some things are harder, like touching lots of functionality, sensitive spots like holds, etc
16:08 gmcharlt      thd: it's a bit of a gut feeling
16:08 wajasu        what about considering enduser migration from squeeze to wheezy.   or mysql vs postgres vs mariadb
16:08 marcelr       :)
16:08 cait          thd: everything gets special effort from the QA team ;)
16:08 marcelr       gmcharlt: ok
16:08 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9811 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Patrons search improvements
16:08 Joubu         bug 9811
16:08 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9011 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, In Discussion , Add the ability to store the last patron to return an item
16:08 gmcharlt      marcelr: I'm not setting a firm cutoff date just yet, but will do so by the March 5 meeting
16:08 Joubu         bug 9011 is quite large too
16:08 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11803 trivial, P5 - low, ---, m.de.rooy, Pushed to Master , Consistent use of $dbh in _koha_modify_item
16:08 thd           What is involved in a 'special effort' for signoff?  What distinguishes a 'special effort'?
16:08 jenkins_koha  Marcel de Rooy: Bug 11803: use $dbh consistently in _koha_modify_item
16:08 jenkins_koha  Project master_maria build #362: SUCCESS in 1 hr 0 min: http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/master_maria/362/
16:07 Joubu         cait: yes but they require special effort for so and qa
16:07 marcelr       hopefully before end of tomorrow :)
16:07 cait          smaller is good in that case
16:07 marcelr       Joubu: bug 10858 will have my attention again very soon
16:07 cait          Joubu:  big enhancements, but bit smaller than the other 3 i think, thankfully
16:07 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10858 new feature, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Signed Off , Browse selected biblios
16:07 Joubu         bug 10858
16:06 Joubu         the history search
16:06 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10212 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Signed Off , Columns configuration for tables
16:06 Joubu         bug 10212
16:06 wahanui       hmmm... morning is a state of cat
16:06 bag           morning
16:06 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9016 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Signed Off , Multi transport types for notices
16:06 Joubu         bug 9016
16:06 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7180 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Signed Off , Order from staged file improvements
16:06 Joubu         bug 7180
16:06 cait          maybe we can add the multi transports as well
16:06 marcelr       when is the cutoff date?
16:05 gmcharlt      paul_p: in this case, things that would require special effort to for signoff and QA by their nature
16:05 Joubu         I have a lot of "large" enh in the queue
16:05 cait          #info Accounts rewrite
16:05 paul_p        gmcharlt = how do you define "large" ?
16:04 wajasu        account rewrite
16:04 cait          hm Accounts rewrite?
16:04 gmcharlt      what else?
16:04 gmcharlt      #info ElasticSearch
16:04 gmcharlt      #info Rancor (cataloging editor)
16:04 gmcharlt      here's what I know of
16:04 gmcharlt      #topic Large enhancements
16:04 wajasu        i did successfully code tests with http://search.cpan.org/~chisel/Test-DBIx-Class-Schema-1.0.2/lib/Test/DBIx/Class/Schema.pm
16:04 gmcharlt      but very breifly, first
16:04 gmcharlt      indeed
16:03 cait          we are getting close to the hour now - maybe we need to talk about having another meeting/actions?
16:00 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11835 normal, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Warnings from DBIx about Moo::_Utils and Class::XSAccessor in Koha::Schema
16:00 marcelr       i also submitted a report this afternoon on some warnings on the connect bug 11835
16:00 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8007 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Discharge management
16:00 Joubu         gmcharlt: Note: I encountered an issue on writing UT for bug 8007 (cf patch UT). The transaction does not work, we use 2 handlers on the same DB
15:59 ColinC        I think the difference is Koha modules have less history to support  the are meant to be new thought
15:58 cait          i feel new modules into Koha ideally, but harder to tell when just adding new bits and pieces
15:58 marcelr       true and it will probably stay for some time :)
15:58 wajasu        great
15:58 gmcharlt      wajasu: yes
15:58 ashimema      i feel the line between C4 and Koha has become rather hazy at best.. I often find myself a bit confused as to where something should go now.
15:57 wajasu        for what was generated in master, did someone get that "work around" DBIC_????? flag out and was the schema adjusted to make DBIC happy (NULL foreign keys)?
15:57 marcelr       should we refrain from adding DBIC into C4 ?
15:57 gmcharlt      #action gmcharlt will work on some DBIC examples; requests others to experiment as well
15:57 cait          marcelr: when we need one that is
15:56 cait          marcelr: there is not so much in Koha yet, maybe the newer ones could just use it?
15:56 ColinC        how?
15:56 gmcharlt      so I'll add that as a topic the March 5 meeting and work some up
15:56 marcelr       the move from C4 to Koha is now interfering with the DBICifying
15:56 gmcharlt      however, I agree with the general point that we need specific examples of recommended usage
15:56 gmcharlt      ok, didn't find what I was looking for
15:54 vfernandes    sorry :)
15:54 cait          vfernandes: can you waita bit longer? we are currently havign a meeting and it's hard to concentrate on 2 things atonce :)
15:54 Joubu         gmcharlt: yes, I know :) But I disagree :)
15:54 marcelr       this extra layer is now in C4?
15:54 vfernandes    one question: i have a koha installation with 5 libraries... it's possible to block the user access to only some of that libraries?
15:53 ColinC        adding an extra layer adds a place to add complucations and bugs
15:53 paul_p        examlpe++
15:53 gmcharlt      one second, digging up an example of something
15:53 marcelr       but it is just theory; in many cases you will need the module
15:53 vfernandes    hi :)
15:52 marcelr       ColinC: now we move them to modules
15:52 gmcharlt      Joubu: IMO, direct use of DBIC in scripts is fine
15:52 Joubu         marcelr: it is not everybody's opinion
15:52 ColinC        The logic would be to use the objects directly in .pl scripts DBIC does the hiding of DBI for you
15:52 marcelr       only
15:52 cait          the RFC on the wiki is not quite what we have right now I think
15:52 marcelr       Joubu i think we wanted to use them from the Koha namespace?
15:51 cait          I think maybe some notes, good practice examples ont he wiki would help to clear confusion
15:51 wajasu        but should we provide   getRenewal vs. ???      wrap only were needed.   if we write good tests for the data access "API", we can NYTProf and such and make it solid the layer testable.
15:51 Joubu         Moreover, should we (QA team) authorize to use DBIC directly in pl scripts, or only in packages in the Koha namespace?
15:51 Joubu         gmcharlt: I already submit propositions and all have been rejected, I just would like someone to show me how to do
15:51 gmcharlt      ColinC: yeah, that seems sensible
15:50 gmcharlt      I could be swayed by a specific counter-example
15:50 gmcharlt      so I don't per se see that more layers improve readability /necessarily/
15:50 Franziska     I am leaving the meeting,Thank you for your attention.
15:49 gmcharlt      Joubu: well, the basic DBIC objects aren't hard to understand
15:49 gmcharlt      schema object, rather
15:49 gmcharlt      paul_p: I do agree, however, that some syntactical sugar would be nice to get a schema class with less typing would be nice
15:49 Joubu         Is there already an example on how to implement an OO class using DBIC into Koha?
15:48 ColinC        would be a good idea to do some concentrated work on an area of the application and learn a bit
15:48 Joubu         In my opinion, if the code is easy to understand, it is not a problem to have more code
15:48 paul_p        gmcharlt the perf penalty is small (and tiny with plack)
15:48 gmcharlt      and too many layers of delegation can impose a performance penalty
15:47 gmcharlt      yes, piling on more code to maintain is not my preference
15:47 cait          more code to maintain
15:47 marcelr       create a class
15:47 paul_p        and what if one day something simple become no more simple ?
15:47 marcelr       lots of relative empty classes
15:47 paul_p        having the same container schema everywhere may be a little bit boring to write, but changes nothing to readability or efficiency, and will be clearer
15:46 gmcharlt      (though more scope to add methods to the base DBIC schema class if called for)
15:46 gmcharlt      but things like authorised values? I see less of a reason write wrapper classes
15:46 paul_p        gmcharlt my counter comment is "how will anyone know what it 'simple' and what is not" ? for newbies, won't it be less readable ?
15:46 ColinC        They are intended to give you usuable objects
15:46 gmcharlt      particularly since we're contemplating doing things like merging biblio and biblioitems
15:45 gmcharlt      for example - the concept of a bib is one that I think lends itself to such an intermediate class
15:45 gmcharlt      and that we should interpose container classes only when needed
15:45 gmcharlt      my current thinking is that for simple things, the DBIC schema classes can safely be used directly
15:44 gmcharlt      the current DBIC suppport already provides basic data access classes
15:44 wajasu        can we get the entire DB API coded in a test for DBIx and possibly reconcile historical names (borrower vs member, issue vs ...)  Then code won't bubble that up into the UI with varying concepts
15:44 gmcharlt      how much abstraction to use
15:44 gmcharlt      so I think one of the issues here is this
15:43 gmcharlt      #topic DBIx::Class
15:43 gmcharlt      yeah, I think there will be a place for fast, self-contained search engines for a while yet
15:42 slef          I've some of the same concerns about ES as Solr. It's another Java app so another complication for Koha servers.
15:42 gmcharlt      so going to move on
15:42 gmcharlt      *however* - I think we've exhausted this topic for now until the later meeting
15:42 gmcharlt      cait: we'll see about when ES goes in - it's a bit too early to know for sure
15:41 gmcharlt      considering that two piece of completely dead code contributed to the security release recently -- I'm feeling a bit less lenient about keeping in code that isn't used
15:41 cait          not reading fast enough
15:41 cait          oh, i misunderstood... i thought elastic search going in
15:41 thd           The issue would be for a librarian interface to control how the indexing functions.
15:41 cait          if it doesn't break anything, nto sure how far they are
15:41 gmcharlt      I'm actually hoping that the question gets settled by 3.16 - at least in terms of our having a pretty good idea about what parts will be staying in for the long run
15:41 cait          maybe we could do experimental
15:40 paul_p        for 3.18, it should be a goal.
15:40 paul_p        I don' tthink it's a reachable goal for 3.16
15:40 paul_p        right.
15:40 gmcharlt      because, ATM, it's code that isn't actively used
15:39 Joubu         thd: the Solr config page (the one in master) can be used for ES too.
15:39 gmcharlt      I actually think that's going to be a big question for 3.16 or possibily 3.18 -- how much of the Koha::SearchEngine stuff will remain
15:39 clrh          thd: erf do not understand the question ><
15:39 paul_p        thd = I really don't know. Everything is in master, we're open to questions.
15:38 thd           ?
15:38 thd           paul_p: Could some of BibLibre work on the user interface for user configurat‭ion of indexing not be taken from the Solr/Lucene work and added to Elastic Search.
15:38 paul_p        gmcharlt and maybe another one with Moose, but not worth forgetting everything we made I think
15:37 Franziska     Koha Gruppo Italiano has no conflict with choice
15:37 paul_p        gmcharlt which one ? not clear to me (except the fact that we started to REPLACE zebra by solr, and the community wanted to have a CHOICE)
15:37 cait          who have been working with Catalyst IT to make it happen
15:36 cait          also people from ByWater will be there
15:36 gmcharlt      I think it's fair to say that there's been an long-running technical disagreement about that.  There's no need to rehash it now, but I expect that once the ES stuff for testing at Hackfest is available, it may clarify things
15:36 paul_p        Franziska = the best would be to have an search layer independant from any search engine. So we can plug ES, Solr, Zebra, whatever
15:35 marcelr       unfortunate
15:35 paul_p        marcelr = I feel it could, I sent an email to rangi about that, and got no feedback.
15:35 Franziska     The community has to choose amoung Solr and ElasticSearch
15:34 ashimema      basically what paul_p just said ;)
15:34 ashimema      Franziska... do you guys have plans for A) Where the money should be coming from and B) What developers your hoping to employ to do the work.  I'm just thinking it should probably go to one of the bigger players already working in searhc for koha, as aposed to somone new implimenting in yet another way..
15:34 clrh          marcelr: there is a base to wrote more things on many search engin as you want...
15:33 clrh          marcelr: things are pushed in master
15:33 marcelr       paul_p couldn't that be rescued somehow?
15:33 Franziska     Sorry, my mistake - the promotion goes over the world
15:33 paul_p        (not because we wrote it)
15:33 paul_p        (energy lost)
15:33 paul_p        what annoys me is that it seems that the work we made on solr won't be re-used at all. And I think/feel it's a shame.
15:32 Franziska     what we essentially do is to promote Koha in Italy
15:32 cait          maybe this can help see where things are going and help getting started on coordination
15:32 gmcharlt      that should help
15:32 cait          rangi left a note on the agenda - saying they will try to have something to play with for the hackfest
15:32 paul_p        ABR ? ACR ? ADR ? AER ?
15:31 Franziska     For us it is a important to work out the way between funding and development
15:31 gmcharlt      just to keep you on your toes ;)
15:31 gmcharlt      paul_p: then we'll throw more acronyms at you
15:31 paul_p        I'll be successful one day... (maybe not this year :D :D )
15:31 paul_p        Franziska oups, sorry, failed once again between AAR and AUR ...
15:30 gmcharlt      right
15:30 Franziska     we are independent. Bywater is in charge of the American Academy's catalog.
15:30 cait          I think it would be great to see this worked out - funding and development :)
15:30 Franziska     we are not assisted by Bywater...Stefano is in charge of our catalog
15:30 gmcharlt      they also tend to use IRC a lot; I recommend that you hang out in #koha
15:29 cait          Franziska: being in NZ they won't make it to the hackfest in Marseille
15:29 Franziska     Our goal is to help the community to make it happen
15:29 paul_p        gmcharlt = so I hope things will be coordinated, because the "italian" project have American University in Rome, that is a ByWater customer !
15:28 gmcharlt      so Franziska, I *strongly* encourage you to get in touch with Chris ASAP
15:28 gmcharlt      and since it has code developing, it's going to set the tone
15:28 Franziska     No not yet, but we really hope to work with him on this project
15:28 gmcharlt      yes
15:28 paul_p        gmcharlt = the "other" ES project is made by chris & sponsored by bywater, isn't it ?
15:27 ashimema      Franziska, are you in touch with Chris et al?
15:27 paul_p        so it's not too late to coordinate. It's the perfect timing I think.
15:27 Franziska     Additional information will be available on http://www.kohagruppoitaliano.moonfruit.com/ shortly
15:27 paul_p        because what italians announced is not -yet- a project with code. It's a project to see how things could/should be done, and -try to- fund it
15:27 ashimema      Agreed, we need some collaboration going on this.
15:26 Franziska     Great! Stefano will present the project in Marseille. Please join us on March 11th
15:26 paul_p        gmcharlt = what do you mean by "2 projects going on" ?
15:26 gmcharlt      I imagine the NZers will be participating in the second version of this meeting today, of coruse
15:25 paul_p        Franziska = look, it's for you now !!!
15:25 gmcharlt      and ... for obvious reasons it would be great if the efforts were coordinated
15:25 gmcharlt      it looks like we have two different ElasticSearch projects going on
15:25 gmcharlt      #topic ElasticSearch
15:25 gmcharlt      OK, I'm going to try to keep the meeting to an hour, so I'm going to move on
15:24 ashimema      from memory
15:24 cait          so it doesn't get lost :)
15:24 ashimema      nothing major.. just minor gripes really.
15:24 cait          #info Can we make ICU indexing default for new installations?
15:24 ashimema      I need to look into it again.. not checked for a while.. i'll try to take a look between this meet and the next ;)
15:24 paul_p        both plack config & nightly crontab script
15:23 gmcharlt      ashimema: thanks
15:23 paul_p        gmcharlt = not sure, will check & wiki-fy it
15:23 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9316 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Needs Signoff , Add Nginx install options with plack
15:23 ashimema      bug 9316
15:23 gmcharlt      all: did you write up the FOO anywhere? ;)
15:23 paul_p        for both OPAC & staff. We faced one problem with it though = we restarted plack every night, and sometimes, it stopped badly, and did not restart
15:22 cait          we use it with hebrew, out of the box icu, no complaints so far
15:22 gmcharlt      paul_p: did you write up the config anywhere?
15:22 jcamins       I use ICU mostly for Russian, Arabic, and Hebrew.
15:22 gmcharlt      ashimema: did you write up the issues?
15:22 paul_p        gmcharlt = we have a working plack configuration at SAN-OP
15:21 clrh          #info Claire Hernandez, BibLibre, France (late sorry)
15:21 ashimema      gmcharlt.. I spent a fair bit of time testing the Plack during install bug on bugzilla.. It had a few issues.
15:21 cait          gmcharlt: can we add icu by default as a question? or did i miss it?
15:21 ColinC        ICU out of the box handles arabic cyrillic and chinese fairly well
15:20 ashimema      we use out of the box icu configs in lots of places.
15:20 gmcharlt      cait: OK, I"m going to tweet a request for folks to add their custom ICU configs to the wiki page
15:20 jcamins       (for ICU, FWIW)
15:20 jcamins       I use the out-of-the-box configuration.
15:20 cait          gmcharlt: we had added some additional rules for umlaut indexing in the past, not sure how flexible configuration can be made here
15:19 cait          gmcharlt: i think most use the out of the box icu now, but there is a wiki page on how to tweak it for arabic
15:19 gmcharlt      tcohen: in a word, yes
15:19 gmcharlt      #info is there a reasonable Plack configuration that we could include in 3.16, and encourage as a first-class install option?
15:18 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11096 major, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, Signed Off , Koha cannot retrieve big records from Zebra
15:18 marcelr       bug 11096
15:18 tcohen        gmcharlt: do u think 11096 could be ready for 3.16?
15:18 cait          they have done some great testing int he past, also with plack
15:18 cait          the librarian testing force is strong at the hackfest usually
15:18 Franziska     Hello from Koha Gruppo Italiano - Rome
15:18 ashimema      testing QueryParser has been on my todo list for a while now, I'de be happy chipping in testing at hackfest should it become a topic
15:17 gmcharlt      also - folks, please feel free to chime in on proposing these sorts of architectural/deprecation/compatbility questions now
15:17 cait          paul_p: maybe testing QueryParser could also be a topic for the hackfest?
15:16 gmcharlt      ColinC: indeed - it's heavily depending on hash sort order, for some reason
15:16 paul_p        Franziska = hello. Just seen your email now. happy to see that you could fix the problem to join us
15:15 gmcharlt      or shoudl we consider going a bit further to generate language-of-record specific configs that folks can use sysprefs to select?
15:15 cait          OpacSuppression + Queryparser don't work, that's kind of a blocker for the library that we tested it with
15:15 gmcharlt      is there a singular ICU config that folks like?
15:15 tcohen        +1
15:15 ColinC        One issue with Jessie may be that Queryparser's tests fail on newer perls
15:15 ashimema      icu for default... ++
15:15 paul_p        ICU by default++
15:15 cait          a lot of libraries stumble on that
15:15 cait          I'd be for ICU by default
15:14 wajasu        should ICU be the default oor such, if or when GRS1 goes away? or is there search value in CHR?
15:14 gmcharlt      paul_p++
15:14 paul_p        gmcharlt = added to workshop list : "DOM indexing in UNIMARC We must test DOM indexing in UNIMARC to see if GRS-1 can be deprecated. Some patches pushed"
15:14 ashimema      i can't remember the details.. it was a while ago and hasn't come up again since
15:14 cait          marcelr: I think there might have been a fix for that, worth trying again maybe
15:14 gmcharlt      #info Is anybody actively testing or developing on Debian Jessie at the moment?
15:14 ashimema      I believe I had to modify at least one config file to get it outputting a sensible format.. it was outputting plain indexes to start with.
15:13 ashimema      not unimark from us.
15:13 marcelr       i tried some time ago and it did not work at that time (out of the box or so)
15:13 tcohen        SRU+DOM+UNIMARC?
15:13 gmcharlt      marcelr: are you seeing any issues with it?
15:13 ashimema      marcelr, we have a few customers using SRU with DOM.. i believe
15:13 gmcharlt      #info anyone using SRU with DOM indexing ?
15:13 jenkins_koha  Starting build #1644 for job Koha_master (previous build: SUCCESS)
15:12 ashimema      gmcharlt, I'd love to see GRS-1 go the way of the dodo.
15:12 gmcharlt      #agreed paul_p will add discussion/testing of UNIMARC Zebra-DOM to Marseille hackfest
15:12 cait          paul_p: my impression was there are still some bugs to shake out, but might not be hard to fix
15:12 marcelr       anyone using SRU with DOM indexing ?
15:12 gmcharlt      paul_p++
15:12 paul_p        gmcharlt = I'll add the unimarc topic for the hackfest. We will have many french unimarc librarians at hand to test ;-)
15:12 gmcharlt      #info Is deprecating GRS-1 a viable option for 3.16?
15:11 gmcharlt      #info How many folks are using QueryParser in production?
15:11 gmcharlt      #info What is the state of UNIMARC/DOM Zebra indexing? Are UNIMARC users ready to adopt it?
15:11 gmcharlt      #topic RM questions
15:10 gmcharlt      they do *not* require an immediate response
15:10 cait          #thx for adding consistency to everything
15:10 gmcharlt      the next thing I'm going to do is to toss out some general questions
15:10 cait          oleonard++
15:10 gmcharlt      oleonard++ # cleanup wizard
15:10 jenkins_koha  Starting build #362 for job master_maria (previous build: SUCCESS)
15:10 gmcharlt      btw
15:10 gmcharlt      i.e., oleonard's DataTables stuff won't take much time in any event
15:09 gmcharlt      enh/new
15:09 gmcharlt      paul_p: I'm going to be doing the small fry first, then go to enh
15:08 gmcharlt      (unless security issues intervene)
15:08 paul_p        gmcharlt = would it be wise to start by new feature/enh ? so hackfest participant can concentrate on testing master ?
15:08 jcamins       #info Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services
15:08 gmcharlt      paul_p: it's going to be my sole focus for Koha work
15:08 paul_p        gmcharlt = do you think you'll have time to deal with the 84 waiting patches before the hackfest ?
15:08 cait          #info end of tomorrow will be cutoff for new passed QA until the hackfest in Marseille, QA team to focus on sign offs and kitten rescue
15:07 gmcharlt      cait: go for it
15:07 cait          or info
15:07 cait          i thik we can add another #agreed for the cutoff :)
15:07 gmcharlt      are there any other announcements folks wish to make at this time?
15:06 huginn`       New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 11803: use $dbh consistently in _koha_modify_item <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=a07b32f4f9090ba0c50c3e510f0be56b8805faeb>
15:06 cait          gmcharlt:  I think continuing on things you are in the midst of should be ok, but not starting on new patches?
15:06 gmcharlt      marcelr: yes - let's say end of day tomorrow as a cutoff for new passed QA if you're in the middle of something?
15:06 gmcharlt      not sure of the details
15:06 gmcharlt      a 3.8.x one, in fact, although I think khall tried applying it but ran into trouble with it
15:06 marcelr       no further new qa's you mean?
15:05 gmcharlt      paul_p: there are one or two in passed-QA that are targetted for maintenance branches
15:05 tcohen        #info Tomas Cohen Arazi, Universidad Nacional de Cordoba
15:05 paul_p        gmcharlt what to you mean by "targetted for master" ?
15:05 gmcharlt      after discussing this with cait, I'd like to request that for the next week, that QA team members focus on (1) needs-signoff and (2) kitten-rescue
15:05 slef          #info the hackfest in Marseille is 10-14 March
15:05 paul_p        gmcharlt++
15:04 gmcharlt      to give a clear slate
15:04 ashimema      gmcharlt++
15:04 gmcharlt      that means that I'm committing to push (or if need be in certain cases, reject) everything targetted for master  by then
15:04 cait          gmcharlt++ :)
15:04 gmcharlt      #info gmcharlt will be clearing the passed QA queue prior to the beginning of the hackfest in Marseille
15:03 gmcharlt      #topic Announcements
15:03 gmcharlt      first, some annouceents
15:03 gmcharlt      OK, folks can continue to chime in as they arrive
15:02 slef          #info MJ Ray, software.coop, England
15:02 matts         #info Matthias Meusburger, Biblibre, France
15:01 jajm          #info Julian Maurice, BibLibre, France
15:01 thd           #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
15:00 fredericd     #info Frédéric Demians, Tamil
15:00 rhcl          #info rhcl = Greg Lawson, Rolling Hills Consolidated Library -ro
15:00 cait          #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ
15:00 ColinC        #info Colin Campbell PTFS-Europe
15:00 Joubu         #info Jonathan Druart, BibLibre, France
15:00 ashimema      #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe
15:00 paul_p        #info Paul Poulain, BibLibre
14:59 gmcharlt      #info gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, 3.16 RM, Equinox, USA
14:59 marcelr       #info Marcel de Rooy, Netherlands
14:59 oleonard      #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries
14:59 wahanui       #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
14:59 gmcharlt      #topic Introductions
14:59 gmcharlt      #info Agenda http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Developers_IRC_Meeting,_February_25,_2014
14:59 huginn`       The meeting name has been set to 'koha_dev_meeting__25_february_2014_15_00_utc'
14:59 huginn`       Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:59 huginn`       Meeting started Tue Feb 25 14:59:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is gmcharlt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59 gmcharlt      #startmeeting Koha Dev Meeting, 25 February 2014 15:00 UTC
14:58 gmcharlt      ok, may as well begin
14:57 marcelr       good start
14:57 * cait        blames oleonard
14:57 marcelr       =coffee
14:57 cait          :P
14:57 ashimema      you've made me hungry now cait.
14:57 marcelr       koffie
14:57 cait          i think we are ready for the meeting
14:56 cait          mmmh coconut
14:56 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10363 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, Failed QA , There is no package for authorised values.
14:56 marcelr       gmcharlt: bug 10363 likes your comments too
14:56 oleonard      cait: Mint, peanut butter, and coconut cookies
14:56 gmcharlt      marcelr: yeah, I just noticed a typo in my follow-up patch to 10865, hence the joke about 18065
14:55 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18065 was not found.
14:55 marcelr       bug 18065 ? too high..
14:55 jenkins_koha  * Tomas Cohen Arazi: Increment version for 3.12.11 release
14:55 jenkins_koha  * Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel: Translation updates for 3.12.11 release
14:55 jenkins_koha  * Tomas Cohen Arazi: Update release notes for 3.12.11 release
14:55 jenkins_koha  Project Koha_3.12.x build #178: SUCCESS in 33 min: http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_3.12.x/178/
14:55 marcelr       hi gmcharlt: will have a look soon
14:55 gmcharlt      and, apparently, 18065 ;)
14:54 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10865 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, In Discussion , Don't show list permissions when adding public lists/sharing lists is not allowed
14:54 gmcharlt      Joubu: oleonard: marcelr: please note the follow-up on bug 10865
14:53 cait          what do you have?
14:53 oleonard      I don't think I have any of those
14:53 cait          druthb has some with lemon....
14:53 cait          oleonard: with lemon?
14:53 * oleonard    has Girl Scout cookies
14:52 wajasu        did anyone bake cookies for the meeting?
14:51 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11718 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Use new DataTables include in reports templates
14:51 marcelr       hi Joubu: will return to that later on.. :)
14:51 oleonard      Joubu: Note that I didn't remove sorting from any columns in my patch for Bug 11718, I only added sorting on creation date
14:51 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9016 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Signed Off , Multi transport types for notices
14:51 Joubu         marcelr++ for the qa feedback on bug 9016!
14:46 oleonard      wajasu: I'm only talking about the staff client
14:46 cait          wajasu: I think oleonad meant the staff side
14:46 wajasu        oleonard: so you don't have read access as a non superlibrarian?  i have access in the OPAC to view as  a Patron(PT) without the special add/edit/delete perms
14:46 Joubu         oleonard: cool :)
14:45 oleonard      Yes Joubu
14:45 tcohen        :-D
14:45 tcohen        oh, thanks gmcharlt. I should be patient then
14:45 gmcharlt      meeting in 15 minutes
14:45 gmcharlt      tcohen: I've seen it take anywhere between 1 and 4 hours
14:44 Joubu         oleonard: did you understand my comment on 11718? I'm not sure it is understandable...
14:44 tcohen        gmcharlt: is cpan.org slow to update from what is uploaded to pause?
14:44 marcelr       hi #koha
14:38 huginn`       gmcharlt: Quote #43: "< Ropuch> Uh - beware of tea: it can burn your throat" (added by chris at 08:35 AM, October 30, 2009)
14:38 gmcharlt      @quote random
14:38 magnuse       tcohen++
14:37 oleonard      wajasu: Right. If UseCourseReserves is enabled I would think one would be able to access course reserves even without permission to edit/delete/manage
14:37 wajasu        UseCourseReserves in circ preferences
14:37 tcohen        Joubu: hopefully gmcharlt will push it and we'll cherry-pick it for the stable keyboards
14:36 cait          oleonard: if there is a sep permission, I'd think so
14:36 cait          y key passed QA :)
14:34 wajasu        i think there is a syspref to turn it on.
14:32 oleonard      Shouldn't I be able to view the course reserves page even if I don't have permission to edit?
14:30 ashimema      nice work! tcohen++ again
14:30 Joubu         ;)
14:30 Joubu         thanks tcohen!
14:29 oleonard      :)
14:29 tcohen        i can confirm that Joubu
14:29 Joubu         I tested my 'y' key, it works great
14:28 tcohen        hi Joubu
14:28 cait          hi Joubu :)
14:27 Joubu         y
14:25 jenkins_koha  Starting build #178 for job Koha_3.12.x (previous build: SUCCESS)
14:22 tcohen        so i've just patched an old deprecation bug it had
14:22 tcohen        the owner gave me the rights to do it
14:22 tcohen        i've just started heh
14:22 ashimema      didn't realise you maintained memoize?
14:21 ashimema      tcohen++
14:20 magnuse       weekend snow - i can live with that :-)
14:20 magnuse       we had snow on saturday and sunday, but now it's all gone
14:19 rhcl          :)
14:19 magnuse       yeah, it sure is warm up here
14:19 tcohen        yay! https://metacpan.org/pod/Memoize::Memcached
14:18 rhcl          k-c.org is UP
14:17 huginn`       rhcl: The current temperature in SE-Svc-Cntr, Houston, Texas is 18.1°C (8:17 AM CST on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 99%. Dew Point: 18.0°C. Pressure: 30.05 in 1018 hPa (Steady).  Dense fog advisory in effect until 10 am CST this morning... 
14:17 rhcl          @wunder houston, tx
14:16 huginn`       oleonard: The current temperature in OHDOT 31-Athens County Garage, Athens, Ohio is -4.4°C (8:30 AM EST on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: -6.0°C. Windchill: -4.0°C. Pressure: 30.17 in 1022 hPa (Falling).
14:16 oleonard      @wunder 45701
14:16 huginn`       rhcl: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 8.0°C (3:00 PM CET on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 48%. Dew Point: 1.0°C. Pressure: 29.99 in 1015 hPa (Falling).
14:16 rhcl          @wunder konstanz
14:16 rhcl          Ah! Tropics in Norway.
14:16 huginn`       rhcl: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 6.0°C (2:50 PM CET on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 2.0°C. Windchill: 2.0°C. Pressure: 29.83 in 1010 hPa (Rising).
14:16 rhcl          @wunder boo
14:15 rhcl          -63°C     It's really cold out there. And it's snowing.
14:15 huginn`       rhcl: The current temperature in Wyatt Park, St Joseph, Missouri is -6.3°C (8:15 AM CST on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 78%. Dew Point: -10.0°C. Windchill: -6.0°C. Pressure: 30.38 in 1029 hPa (Rising).
14:15 rhcl          @wunder 64507
14:05 cait          magnuse: ooh :(
14:04 talljoy       hi druthb!
14:04 druthb        o/
14:04 francharb     o/ magnuse
14:04 talljoy       hiya magnuse!
14:04 magnuse       hiya francharb and talljoy
14:03 francharb     good morning #koha
13:53 * magnuse     will miss the first one, maybe the second one too
13:53 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11096 major, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, Signed Off , Koha cannot retrieve big records from Zebra
13:53 tcohen        bug 11096
13:52 magnuse       dev meeting in 1 hour 7 minutes!
13:52 magnuse       fridolin++
13:45 tcohen        heh
13:45 ashimema      damn.. that means my list of tasks just grew ;)
13:45 ashimema      fridolin++
13:43 cait          :)
13:43 tcohen        fridolin++
13:42 fridolin      i'm releasing today 3.14.04
13:42 tcohen        hi fridolin
13:41 fridolin      hie all
13:36 cait          i really was too tired this morning it seems :)
13:36 cait          tcohen: grs1! the missing piece!
13:27 magnuse       kia ora oleonard NateC
13:23 oleonard      Hi #koha
13:10 cait          yeah, we already do some ampersand magic
13:09 tcohen        your patch doesn't hurt
13:09 tcohen        we are doing ad-hoc fixes anyway
13:09 cait          i think you know more about the problem right now than i do
13:09 cait          and if you could add some notes why it would break other people't things
13:08 nlegrand      hey
13:08 cait          tcohen: i would be happy if you did
13:07 tcohen        do u want me to sign it?
13:07 tcohen        a proper solution would break people's Koha use
13:07 tcohen        and your patch does the job
13:07 tcohen        i can reproduce your problem (< >)
13:06 tcohen        hi cait
13:04 cait          hi tcohen :)
12:53 wahanui       fredericd is probably translation manager for 3.8
12:53 tcohen        fredericd?
12:53 tcohen        anyone with experience maintaining a CPAN module?
12:36 tcohen        hi cait
12:36 tcohen        morning #koha
12:23 ashimema      :)
12:21 cait          lol
12:21 * barton      thinks that cait should alias 'locate' to 'locait'.
11:34 * magnuse     rewards himself with lunch
11:34 ashimema      brain is not good today.
11:34 magnuse       :-)
11:34 ashimema      of course.. why didn't I tihnk of 'locate'
11:34 ashimema      aha, magnuse your awsome.
11:34 magnuse       (or e.g. "locate kohastructure.sql")
11:33 magnuse       ashimema: try /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/
11:33 cait          :)
11:33 sophie_m      it's a good plan too :-)
11:32 cait          sophie_m: my train is already booked, i won't be available before 5pm i think, so I will aim fo rmeeting people for dinner
11:32 ashimema      hmm
11:32 cait          ashimema: sorry, not sure about the paths there
11:31 sophie_m      cait: if possible in the morning. But I can adapt
11:30 ashimema      I was hoping to grab some of the default sql to post fill frameworks on my system.
11:30 ashimema      anyone know where the stuff that i a dev install ends up in kohaclone/installer/ goes in a packages install..
11:27 cait          sophie_m: when where you thinking for the walk?
11:24 cait          might be difficult to reach everyonee otherwise - but probably next week - ideas welcome :)
11:24 cait          i think i might send a mail to the early arriving proposinga meeting point near the harbour
11:23 cait          paul_p: :)
11:22 paul_p        will send a mail soon about that
11:22 cait          ah hi paul_p
11:21 paul_p        cait probably tuesday
11:21 cait          :) do you know when he plans to do it?
11:21 sophie_m      cait, paul_p is organising a diner where we can have a brief point of view. it's not the same as walking in it, but it could give you the taste for next time :-)
11:18 cait          my coworker tells me every year to go there, but i never managed
11:18 cait          sophie_m: might be arriving too late for that :( 16:00
11:16 sophie_m      Are some of people coming to the hackfest in Marseille interested by a walk in "calanques" on Sunday (http://www.marvellous-provence.com/other-places/sights-and-attractions/calanques/south-of-marseille)
11:13 sophie_m      hello #koha
11:10 cait          lebanese... i think
11:10 cait          yep don't miss lunch
11:10 magnuse       just don't miss lunch ;-)
11:09 ashimema      I should be turning up before lunch on monday
11:07 cait          just don't miss monday :)
11:06 * ashimema    now wishes he was arriving sunday too
11:06 cait          petter: I am trying to organize dinner für the early arriving
11:02 cait          when do you arrive on Sunday?
11:02 cait          hi petter :)
10:41 petter        But hopefully if we get some feedback we can improve the solution
10:41 petter        thanks, I'm not sure there are any other libraries with needs like us..
10:40 magnuse       petter++ for the RFID RFC
10:27 magnuse       and hiya barton
10:27 magnuse       hiya petter!
10:26 petter        Hi Koha!
10:25 barton        morning all
10:20 magnuse       there is some discussion about it on bugzilla, but i'm not sure exactly where...
10:17 magnuse       gaetan_B: i think it's sort of a grey area...
09:54 gaetan_B      does that mean we are not sticking to any TOS ?
09:54 gaetan_B      magnuse: hmm so we're not using a webservice or an api ?
09:37 magnuse       that sort of thing
09:37 magnuse       gaetan_B: <img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/[% itemsloo.normalized_isbn %].01.TZZZZZZZ.jpg" alt="" class="thumbnail" />
09:35 magnuse       gaetan_B: i think koha just constructs URLs for the images, there is no webservice as such
09:18 wahanui       hello, clrh
09:18 clrh          hello
09:15 gaetan_B      https://affiliate-program.amazon.com/gp/advertising/api/detail/main.html  ?
09:15 gaetan_B      is it this one :
09:15 gaetan_B      which is the webservice koha actually uses to fetch covers from amazon ?
09:07 cait          hm thnk it would be a good idea but not sure how to
09:06 ashimema      #meetings
09:05 ashimema      worth putting the dev meeting in the motd?
09:03 ashimema      mornin' cait et al'
08:59 cait          good morning #koha and wahanui
08:59 wahanui       germs is probably http://i.imgur.com/5UfhT.jpg
08:59 huginn`       GERMS!!!!
08:49 Joubu         Marcel around?
08:26 paul_p        'morning magnuse
08:24 magnuse       kia ora paul_p
08:14 magnuse       oops
08:13 magnuse       seconds
08:13 magnuse          12
08:13 magnuse       minutes
08:13 magnuse          46
08:13 magnuse       hours
08:13 magnuse       dev meeting in 6
08:12 magnuse       bonjour!
08:08 gaetan_B      hello
08:03 matts         hi !
08:02 huginn`       magnuse: The current temperature in Realtor, CABRIES, France is 6.8°C (9:02 AM CET on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 70%. Dew Point: 2.0°C. Windchill: 5.0°C. Pressure: 30.06 in 1018 hPa (Steady).
08:02 magnuse       @wunder marseille
08:02 huginn`       magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 5.0°C (8:50 AM CET on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Light Rain Showers. Humidity: 93%. Dew Point: 4.0°C. Windchill: -1.0°C. Pressure: 29.56 in 1001 hPa (Rising).
08:02 magnuse       @wunder boo
08:02 * magnuse     waves again
07:59 wahanui       bidet, Joubu
07:59 Joubu         salut
07:33 wahanui       hola, reiveune
07:33 reiveune      hello
07:31 cait          bye all
07:31 cait          running out of time :(
06:59 mtompset      Have a great day, cait dcook magnuse laurence #koha.
06:59 mtompset      Anyways... I best take off. I need to get rest.
06:54 mtompset      Because that would be a nice feature to get into 3.16
06:53 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6874 enhancement, P3, ---, julian.maurice, Needs Signoff , File upload in MARC
06:53 mtompset      I was wondering if someone from Biblibre could take a look at my revision patch on bug 6874. It's the only thing needing sign off on this bug that seemed to start from Biblibre.
06:53 dcook         BibLibre is everywhere ;)
06:52 cait          yep
06:52 mtompset      Hmmm... Julian Maurice is Biblibre too, right?
06:51 laurence      hi mtompset
06:50 mtompset      Greetings, laurence.
06:50 mtompset      magnuse: You snuck in! Greetings.
06:48 mtompset      There... now, three more sign offs later, and I'll be back to where I'm happy. :)
06:46 mtompset      Ah. Thanks, cait.
06:46 cait          mtompset: there are no default sample reports
06:44 laurence      salut dcook
06:44 dcook         salut laurence
06:44 dcook         yo, magnuse
06:42 * magnuse     waves
06:41 * dcook       was wondering why a "b" was causing an invalid character exception...
06:41 dcook         http://search.cpan.org/~larslund/PDF-Reuse-Barcode-0.05/Barcode.pm
06:41 dcook         Turns out that Code39 is case sensitive
06:41 * dcook       dances around a bit
06:40 dcook         \o/
06:40 mtompset      is report 21 one of the default sample reports?
06:30 * dcook       has worked in libraries for 7-8 years and has found this to always be true.
06:30 dcook         mtompset: Acquisitions is always horrifying in libraries.
06:29 dcook         I don't suppose anyone has noticed this error: "Barcode generation failed for item %s with this error: %s" when trying to print barcode labels?
06:22 mtompset      This can't possibly reflect the way people think about the process in reality.
06:21 mtompset      I know nothing of the process, and it was weird to see the things I had to click to get things to do what I needed for testing.
06:21 mtompset      Well, okay... Acquisitions is a whole mess.
06:11 cait          it's acq.
06:09 mtompset      the whole invoicing thing is a weird mess.
06:05 cait          thx
06:05 cait          ok
06:05 mtompset      Nope... works fine.
06:04 mtompset      reindexing stilll.... *whistles*
06:03 mtompset      ah... there.
06:01 cait          the invoice will be generated then
06:01 cait          you receive something in acq
06:01 mtompset      how do I generate invoices?
06:00 mtompset      Okay... leaving out -a.
05:56 cait          could you try a las tthing? leaving out the -a of the indexing command, just doing bibliographic?
05:56 mtompset      I've fallen a bit behind having been sick, and losing funding. :(
05:55 mtompset      I tried.
05:55 cait          thx for testing mtompset :)
05:49 * dcook       was going to test something but then got distracted by local stuff..
05:49 dcook         Thanks, mtompset :)
05:48 cait          i need at least another hour before my brain wakes up
05:48 cait          i am too tired to figure out what hte difference is really
05:48 mtompset      Just annoying, because it is a nice tiny patch which should be easy to sign off.
05:48 cait          just leave it
05:48 cait          it's ok
05:47 mtompset      Well, I can't exactly sign something off based on my eyeball of it.
05:47 * mtompset    shrugs.
05:46 cait          2.0.44
05:46 cait          what is packaged i would say
05:45 cait          i should ask him how far he got digging
05:45 mtompset      which zebra version are you using?
05:45 cait          and tcohen could reproduce as well
05:44 cait          yep
05:44 mtompset      same problem on both?
05:44 cait          debian at work ubuntu at home
05:44 cait          tested on both
05:44 mtompset      Is this Ubuntu or Debian?
05:44 wahanui       interesting is sometimes good and sometimes bad
05:44 cait          hmm interesting
05:43 mtompset      and it's the first entry.
05:43 mtompset      I typed fancy into the search text box and clicked go.
05:43 cait          and you are looking at the result list?
05:43 mtompset      .../rebuild_zebra.pl -b -a -r -x -v
05:42 cait          how did you reindex?
05:42 mtompset      Nope... works fine.
05:42 cait          i filed the bug against master
05:42 cait          it's in master too, really
05:41 mtompset      okay... master ok... changing to 3.12.x
05:37 mtompset      And am reindexing.
05:37 mtompset      Since you said it was results. I just tweaked an entry.
05:37 mtompset      I'm trying to replicate the problem.
05:37 cait          well if it's signed off we can find out ;)
05:37 mtompset      cait: If the other fix line made it into master, then I think your two lines should.
05:36 cait          i jsut got up... i might not make sense
05:36 cait          not fixing the problem at its source
05:35 cait          but my patch probably won't make it in I think - it's patching it up, but not really fixing it
05:35 cait          because both use data from diffrent places
05:35 cait          detail is fine, it's only the result list
05:34 mtompset      Hmmm... I'll try again... I only had it going straight to detail, because I only have one seuss record. :)
05:34 cait          you checked the results list?
05:31 mtompset      There must be other system preferences to set.
05:31 mtompset      and then switching to 3.6, 3.8, 3.10, 3.12, and 3.14 I couldnt get it to display weird.
05:31 cait          tcohen could reproduce
05:31 cait          i did as well
05:31 mtompset      I entered the record under MASTER.
05:31 cait          i don't think so
05:30 mtompset      Though, I suspect it might be a data entry thing.
05:30 mtompset      Yes.
05:30 cait          did you use the -x switch for indexing?
05:30 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11741 normal, P5 - low, ---, katrin.fischer, Needs Signoff , < > not displaying correctly in XSLT result list
05:30 cait          bug 11741
05:30 mtompset      11741
05:29 * mtompset    tries to remember the bug cait posted.
05:29 huginn`       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11575 normal, P5 - low, ---, dcook, Signed Off , OPACBaseURL sometimes set by ENV variable and not system preference
05:29 cait          bug 11575
05:29 cait          ?
05:29 mtompset      I tried duplicating your <TEST> problem, cait, and couldn't. Sorry.
05:27 cait          morning
05:27 mtompset      Greetings, cait.
05:26 mtompset      dcook: signed off 11575 for you. :)
04:11 mtompset      But jumping to conclusions is crazy fun, dcook. :P
03:58 dcook         I wasn't going to jump to any conclusions :p
03:58 dcook         hehe
03:58 ibeardslee    not dcook decreasing his kamra, aleisha coming in to Catalyst
03:57 ibeardslee    excellent
03:43 dcook         I should decrease my karma sometime or really start testing more...
03:39 huginn`       rangi: Karma for "aleisha" has been increased 2 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 2.
03:39 rangi         @karma aleisha
03:38 dcook         aleisha++
03:37 aleisha       :)
03:37 rangi         aleisha++ # coming in to catalyst after school to sign off patches (just signed one off now)
03:35 mtompset      Greetings, #koha.
03:34 rangi         heh
03:34 * dcook       tries to hide all the cute cat photos
03:34 dcook         Sometimes I forget that I'm remarkably open on Facebook
03:32 rangi         i call bs
03:31 dcook         Oh, I'm a total bastard, so no worries there :p
03:29 dbs           There are those who will argue about how "good" my company is :)
03:26 dcook         Once upon a time, I thought about looking for library work around Sudbury. Glad to know there was good company!
03:25 dbs           close enough indeed :)
03:25 dbs           dcook: I'm not into the motorized side of things, but there's great mountain biking trails around here which make me very happy
03:25 dcook         Well, that was more so over by North Bay, but close enough
03:24 dcook         Some nice bush around Sudbury, iirc. Good times snow shoeing and sledding.
03:24 dbs           dcook: yes, I'll take cold over heat :)
03:23 * dbs         occasionally wonders why he is in Sudbury, when he has been to Sydney and Brisbane... but he does love winter sports
03:22 dcook         dbs: -15 wouldn't be so bad about now..
03:22 dcook         Sounds about right..
03:22 huginn`       dcook: The current temperature in Sydney, New South Wales is 28.0°C (2:00 PM EST on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 42%. Dew Point: 14.0°C. Pressure: 29.95 in 1014 hPa (Steady).
03:22 dcook         @wunder sydney, australia
03:22 dcook         I probably knew that...that's neat
03:22 huginn`       rangi: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 18.0°C (4:00 PM NZDT on February 25, 2014). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 64%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 30.06 in 1018 hPa (Steady).
03:21 rangi         @wunder nzwn
03:21 dcook         Sudbury, eh?
03:20 dbs           Humidity -999% eh? Wow.
03:19 huginn`       dbs: The current temperature in Hwy 69 @ Richard Lake, Sudbury, Ontario is -15.0°C (10:10 PM EST on February 24, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: -999%. Dew Point: -60.0°C. Windchill: -20.0°C. Pressure: 30.03 in 1017 hPa (Rising).
03:19 dbs           @wunder p3e2c6
02:23 dcook         I would write the question mark again but I'll just smile and nod :p
02:16 wahanui       i think koha-community.org is actually updated and right
02:16 rangi         koha-community.org
02:16 dcook         ?
02:12 rangi         gmcharlt is on the case