Time  Nick      Message
06:19 rangi     hmm
07:31 busla     hey everyone.. just found your amazing ILS
07:33 busla     I have a question about MARCXML .. are people generally using that format to import data, or just regular MARC21?
07:34 busla     I´ve got a huge Excel file with Title, Author, Pub and Year.. that I´m preparing to import to Koha and wondering if I should parse it and convert to MARCXML
07:35 rangi     you could you can convert that easily to iso2709
07:35 rangi     koha can handle marc21, unimarc or normarc
07:35 busla     ahh ok.. so no MARCXML yet
07:35 rangi     marcxml isnt a flavour of marc
07:35 rangi     its just a storage mechanism
07:36 rangi     you can store any flavour of marc in it
07:37 rangi     and yep, you can send marcxml to bulkmarcimport
07:38 rangi     but like i said, you still have to decide what flavour of marc you are using, that is immaterial to the storage format you choose
07:39 busla     well, I haven´t taken a proper look at that yet.. I´m just starting and have this Excel sheet to work with
07:39 busla     I guess I´ll use whatever Koha recommends
07:40 rangi     it doesnt recommend anything thats entirely up to you
07:41 rangi     its probably best to use the flavour of marc that the libraries around you use
07:42 rangi     so whether you store it as MARCXML or ISO2709 you still have to decide that
07:43 busla     well, it´s a small library that has everything catalogued in Excel and I offered to move it to a standardized format and an online access
07:43 rangi     yep
07:43 busla     so .. I guess I´ll read the docs about which MARC is appropriate
07:44 rangi     yep but not the koha docs
07:45 rangi     its not a koha thing :) its a what your country uses, and what you want to use thing
07:45 busla     right
07:46 rangi     i have no idea what belgium uses
07:46 rangi     i know france is UNIMARC
07:46 rangi     germany is MAB/MARC21
07:48 busla     great, thanks.
07:48 busla     what´s your opinion on MARCXML versus ISO2709
07:48 busla     ?
07:51 rangi     i suspect that if you go with UNIMARC iso2709 is easier
07:52 rangi     but im not sure
07:52 rangi     both iso2709 and MARCXML are horrid
07:52 rangi     but MARCXML doesnt have the length limitation that iso2709 does
07:53 rangi     however you are unlikely to run into that problem unless you have a biblio record with masses of items attached
07:56 busla     thanks for the info
07:57 magnuse   i find it easier to get the encoding right when i use marcxml, but that might just be me
08:00 busla     also the interoperability of the format is why I´m considering it
08:00 rangi     it only matters until you import it
08:00 rangi     koha stores everything as both marcxml and iso2709 anyway
08:01 rangi     just pick whatever is easiest to do your conversion with
08:01 busla     ahh ok.. so the storage is only before I import, gotcha. Koha does not store it in MARCXML
08:01 busla     oops
08:01 busla     didn´t read that properly
08:01 busla     it stores both
08:02 busla     I guess the most comfortable method for me is to convert this CSV file to MARCXML with a python script
08:02 busla     I guess there are some libs out there
08:03 busla     might even be a conversion lib to iso2709
08:03 rangi     pymarc
08:07 busla     wow great, and it´s active
08:24 busla     ok, Belgium seems to be using UNIMARC .. but I´m not sure. I only found one source that mentions it.
08:25 busla     just so I understand this correctly, my process would be: Convert from CSV to MARCXML/ISO2709 -> Import to Koha as UNIMARC ?
08:25 rangi     are you in the flemish or french speaking part ?
08:25 busla     flamish
08:26 rangi     ahh, yeah not sure then
08:26 busla     but just arrived here, I´m actually from ICeland
08:26 busla     :Ð
08:26 rangi     if it was french, then UNIMARC would make sense
08:26 rangi     katrin would know, but she isnt here
08:26 rangi     or irma
08:29 busla     ok
08:29 busla     INTERMARC is mentioned also..
08:29 busla     which is used by the french national library... but they also export to UNIMARC
08:56 cait      hi #koha
08:57 rangi     cait: do you know what marc standard they use in belgium?
08:58 cait      um. no?
08:58 wahanui   http://i.imgur.com/hVVuP.jpg
08:58 cait      is it a trick question?
08:59 rangi     nope just busla is about to do a conversion
09:01 cait      i think i'd heck the z39.50 sources he can use from national library and such
09:03 busla     hey..
09:03 busla     still here :-)
09:04 cait      hi busla
09:04 cait      i have seen this allows to export marcxml http://www.bib.belgium.be/?uilang=nl
09:04 cait      which owuld be marc21
09:04 cait      but no idea about other catalogs
09:05 busla     I´ll look at this.. although I don´t speak dutch :-/
09:05 cait      oh
09:05 cait      sorry
09:06 cait      me neither
09:06 cait      i followed the links here: http://www.kbr.be/catalogues/catalogues_nl.html
09:06 cait      just trying to see what export formats would be offered
09:07 busla     right..
09:07 busla     I´m going to repost a question I asked earlier: just so I understand this correctly, my process would be: Convert from CSV to MARCXML/ISO2709 -> Import to Koha as UNIMARC ?
09:07 busla     UNIMARC/MARC21
09:09 cait      yes
09:09 cait      but you will have to pick UNIMARC or MARC21 - both are quite different
09:09 cait      my guess would be marc21
09:09 cait      but might be worth if you do some research there
09:09 cait      what other libraries you want to use data from offer as a format
09:10 busla     I´ll talk to the librarian that speaks dutch :-) I´m only here to setup the ILS
09:10 busla     can I get remote metadata about titles?
09:11 busla     by querying the ISBN number?
09:11 busla     or just the titles even?
09:11 cait      yeah, you are looking for z39.50 targets
09:11 busla     right
09:12 busla     that would be neccessary since the catalogue is an Excel sheet with only Title, Author, Pub and Date
09:13 cait      irspy might have some
09:13 cait      irspy?
09:13 wahanui   rumour has it irspy is a good source for identifying Z39.50 targets. See http://irspy.indexdata.com
09:13 busla     I need alot of meta with that to make the ILS useful
09:13 busla     ok, will take a look
09:20 busla     any Z39.50 linux clients you recommend?
09:21 cait      i think yaz is the one
09:22 cait      the problem is that you probably will get multiple results
09:22 cait      koha has a client too - how bib is the collection?
09:23 busla     8000 titles in total... a small library and then an archive in another location
09:23 busla     it´s all kinds of stuff, most of it does not exist in public libraries
09:24 busla     pamphlets, radical magazines, even posters
09:24 cait      might be hard to find those online then
09:24 cait      teh problem is that identifying the right record could be hard
09:24 cait      might be necessary to do that later manually
09:25 busla     right.. I was hoping to get some meta with the books that were published
09:25 busla     but other than that.. it´s all manual indexing
09:25 cait      yeah but even with an isbn you might get multiple hits
09:25 cait      different editions
09:25 busla     ahh ok
09:26 busla     I might just use Koha then... when the items have been imported
09:26 cait      but might be worth doing some tests
09:26 busla     will Koha try to match local items with remote items if I set up a Z39.50 connection?
09:29 cait      it's a manual process in Koha
09:29 cait      meant for cataloguing new items
09:29 cait      so when you go an dhave a new item, you search external sources for metadata, then can enhance and change it locally etc.
09:30 busla     ahhh that´s nice
09:30 busla     is there a way to have "suggestions" from external sources when you view an item?
09:31 cait      so not right what you need now, but should make things easier later
09:31 busla     for sure
09:31 cait      hm not so much
09:31 cait      you can overwrite existing records... open them in cataloguing and search... but that's not what you mean I guess
09:33 busla     what I´m thinking is a setting where you configure a remote Z39.50 host to pull in suggestions from that host when you view a local item...
09:34 busla     that way staff could continuously be updating local items if the remote host has an item that matches
09:35 busla     even if it would bring in duplicates
09:35 busla     or several items that have the same title..
09:35 busla     maybe the critaria would be that the title and author would match
09:35 busla     maybe one day...
09:35 busla     :)
09:37 cait      :)
10:48 busla     no docs with Pymarc :-/
10:48 busla     https://github.com/edsu/pymarc
10:58 cait      are you looking for tools to convert csv to marc?
11:00 busla     csv -> marcxml
11:00 busla     but the format is pretty straightforward.. I think I´ll just write out the marcxml format myself
11:01 busla     one of the reasons I want to use marcxml
11:01 busla     :)
11:01 busla     only three syntaxes
11:01 cait      yeah, it's probably easier
11:01 cait      and then convert that later
11:01 cait      have an eye on the controlfields
11:01 cait      those are a bit complicatd but used for search
11:02 cait      LDR, 007
11:03 busla     the index I´m using is so primitive, it´s only four columns in a CSV file (Title, Author, Pub, Year)
11:03 busla     so I´ll only be writing out those fields
11:03 cait      ah and 008 - pos. 7-10 - you will want to put the publication year there too in addition to 260$c
11:03 cait      yeah, but make the best of it? :)
11:03 cait      this 008 position is used for the publication date range search, so nice to have if you know it now :)
11:03 busla     yes :-)
11:04 busla     ahh ok
11:11 busla     not easy to find a marc21 cheatsheet around ..
11:11 busla     yes: http://www.statemuseum.arizona.edu/library/cataloging_manual/ref_marcformat.shtml
11:15 cait      busla: http://loc.gov/marc
11:16 cait      i think you'll need 245$a, 100$a, 260
11:21 busla     nice.. thanks for posting
11:29 busla     so the "$a" suffix in 245$a means that it can have several titles?
11:30 busla     ahh .. subfield cosed
11:30 busla     codes
11:30 busla     http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/bd100.html
11:36 cait      busla: if you look at the standard, there is NR (non repeatable) and R (repeatable) behind the fields
11:36 cait      $a is just the title
11:37 busla     right.. I´m looking at 005 now ..
11:37 busla     the description doesn´t really explain what it means...
11:38 busla     last edited?
11:39 busla     or are all 00x fields rendered by the system from other fields?
11:41 busla     I think I need to spend some time reading the MARC docs :-) http://www.loc.gov/marc/umb/
11:50 cait      don't go insane :)
11:51 cait      busla: sorry, not rendered
11:51 cait      koha offers plugins to make it easier to catalog them, but they are really codes
11:51 cait      marc is a bit insane.
11:51 cait      you don't really need all of it, but there are some interesting as koha actually makes use of them, like the normalized publication year in 008
11:52 cait      ah and last edited gets autofilled in Koha.... because noone wants to type that of course
11:53 busla     I´m excited :-)
11:53 busla     I will (hopefully) be running Koha on a Raspberry Pi .. might even try to use something lighter than Apache
11:53 busla     we´ll see
11:54 busla     but I seem to be taking the role of the actual librarian here.. which I shouldn´t .. but to some extent... I need to
11:54 busla     the 008 is insane :-) haha
12:04 busla     cait: have you heard about any projects where people have been importing titles from arbitrary indexes and then updating the records in Koha from a remotez
12:04 busla     z
12:04 busla     ... Z39.50 targets?
12:04 cait      busla: you should talk to drojf maybe
12:05 cait      but i think koha on raspi is not going to be very fast
12:05 cait      but he did it
12:05 cait      with some optimizations i think - maybe using nginx and plack
12:05 cait      i think lots of people are doing it, lots of it in the mailign archives
12:06 cait      some are using marcedit, but i think if you can program you are more flexible
12:06 busla     right.. it would be headless so I have 512mb RAM
12:07 busla     I´ll look at the archives
12:20 Oak       [off] http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/05/us-scientists-boycott-nasa-china-ban
12:59 * cait    waves at Oak and Dyrcona
19:15 busla     hey all.. does anyone know how ISBN fits in the realm of bibliographic formats? I´ve been trying to wrap my head around the MARC format today and now stumbled upon ISBN.
19:16 cait      022
19:16 cait      hm or 020
19:16 cait      @marc 020
19:16 huginn    cait: The ISBN assigned to a monographic publication by designated agencies in each country participating in the program. The field may include terms of availability and canceled or invalid ISBNs. It may be repeated for multiple numbers associated with the item (e.g., ISBNs for the hard bound and paperback manifestations; ISBNs for a set as a whole and for the individual parts in the set). (Repeatable) (1 more message)
19:16 cait      right issn is 022 :)
19:17 busla     ok.. so it´s a subset of MARC?
19:17 busla     my impression was that it´s a different format
19:18 busla     ahh .. sorry
19:18 busla     ISBD
19:18 busla     my mistake.. it was a typo
19:18 busla     http://www.ifla.org/publications/international-standard-bibliographic-description
19:19 busla     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Bibliographic_Description
19:19 cait      hm
19:19 cait      the punctuation in marc is isbd
19:19 cait      i think it goes back to printing catalog cards
19:19 cait      .. somehow
19:20 cait      no sane person would include punctuaton in a new format today (at least i hope so) :)
19:24 busla     I´m not sure I follow.. is it the same format, but simpler?
19:24 busla     fewer codes?
19:24 cait      it's not really the same thing
19:24 cait      but i am not sure i can explain it :(
19:25 cait      i guess isbd is more human readable... while marc21 was thought to be machine readable
19:25 busla     ahh ok
19:25 cait      and isbd is a bit mixed into marc21
19:25 cait      where is jcamins when you need him?
19:40 wizzyrea  MARC is a digital format for library metadata, MARCXML is an XML based variant of MARC, ISBD is a standard for actually describing and expressing bibliographic data
19:40 wizzyrea  as far as I understand it
19:41 wizzyrea  or you could just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARC_standards
19:42 cait      wizzyrea for the rescue :)
19:42 busla     ok.. so I guess I can store records in MARC21 using Koha and then have the online catalogue display the records as ISBD?
19:42 wizzyrea  If you want, but ISBD is really old school.
19:42 busla     that WP article has limited info
19:42 wizzyrea  have you looked at demo kohas?
19:43 busla     yes
19:43 wizzyrea  but it has excellent links
19:43 wizzyrea  but sure, you can make koha display ISBD if you want to
19:43 wizzyrea  it's just not very pretty ;)
19:44 busla     thanks :-)
19:53 tcohen    Hijo #koha
19:53 tcohen    *Hi
19:54 tcohen    es keyboard
20:00 cait      hi tcohen :)
20:00 tcohen    Hi cait
20:00 tcohen    Waiting for my Sunday tennis partner
20:00 tcohen    Just remembered I had irc on the phone
20:00 cait      hm why do we have waiting date on the reserve slip when it doesn't print? :(
20:01 cait      tcohen:  :)
20:01 tcohen    How are you doing?
20:01 cait      good, kind of a lazy weekend with lots of sleep :)
20:02 cait      and some walking in the forrest
20:03 tcohen    :-)
20:04 cait      ok :( the docs i have been writing are hidden in a broken odt now...
20:04 * cait    is having some bad luck today
20:06 tcohen    Its a zip file with a bunch of xml
20:06 tcohen    Court ready, gotta leave, good luck cait!
20:06 cait      thx tcohen :)
20:06 cait      you too!
20:18 wizzyrea  cait I don't understand your question
20:18 cait      ?
20:18 wizzyrea  about the waiting date?
20:19 cait      we have it in the default template
20:19 cait      but it doesn't print
20:19 cait      i am revamping the german templates for slips
20:19 wizzyrea  gotta be a bug
20:19 cait      probably
20:19 wizzyrea  something to do with reservestatus maybe?
20:19 cait      ?
20:20 wizzyrea  nm forget I said anything ;)
20:24 cait      wizzyrea: getting late here - i might not make much sense :)
20:24 cait      hm
20:24 cait      no transport slip.
20:24 cait      oh
20:25 cait      hidden window... yeah i am not making sense
20:25 cait      hm when you try to repeat printing of a transport script by doing another check in.... you get a normal reserve slip
20:25 cait      that intended?
20:26 cait      oh forgot I asked.. I think I don't wnat to know that tonight
20:26 wizzyrea  yep because the transit is complete
20:29 cait      yeah, but... it's not nice
20:29 rangi     plugins are in 3.12 eh?
20:29 cait      yes
20:29 rangi     cool thanks
20:30 * cait    thinks it would be cool if we could print barcodes on the slips :)
20:30 cait      but yeah, limited use case, thinking of ILL items
20:34 cait      tansports are weird.
20:34 cait      are we sure those work?
20:34 wizzyrea  transits?
20:34 wizzyrea  what issue are you having?
20:34 cait      hm those yes
20:35 cait      i deleted the hold
20:35 cait      then i made a new one
20:35 cait      for pickup at another library than i am logged in at
20:35 cait      then i check in the item
20:35 cait      and i get 2 messages
20:35 cait      well 2
20:36 wizzyrea  yep that's "normal"
20:36 cait      Please return Handbuch der Religionspädagogik. to CentervillePrint slip or Cancel transfer
20:36 cait      and a second blue box with:
20:36 wizzyrea  there's a bug for that.
20:36 cait      Hold found: Handbuch der Religionspädagogik.                  Hold for: 		                              Admin, Koha              (1)
20:36 cait      Transfer to: Centerville
20:36 wizzyrea  yep
20:36 cait      and both don't print the transport slip
20:36 cait      but a reserveslip
20:37 wizzyrea  right, when you transport for a hold, it prints a reserve slip
20:37 wizzyrea  that says "transit to xxx"
20:37 cait      oh
20:37 cait      um no
20:37 cait      the transit to appears only on the slip for transports
20:37 cait      well transits
20:37 rangi     transfers
20:37 wahanui   transfers are totally independent of holds
20:37 cait      ok, I might just be too confused for this :(
20:37 wizzyrea  double messages is nothing new though
20:38 rangi     is the word
20:38 cait      lol thx rangi
20:38 wizzyrea  sorry transfers.
20:38 rangi     not transits or transports
20:38 rangi     :)
20:38 cait      transfer transfer transfer *writes it down a few times*
20:39 wizzyrea  anyway, doing hold gymnastics with things already in transits is usually troublesome.
20:39 wizzyrea  already being transferred, sorry.
20:40 cait      hmm
20:40 cait      i will make sure to use anotheritem :)
20:41 wizzyrea  http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8451
20:41 huginn    04Bug 8451: minor, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Failed QA , Confusing and problematic double prompt for processing transfers
20:41 wizzyrea  and bug 9322
20:41 wahanui   bug 9322 is going to be rear its head a lot more when bug 8292 is pushed.
20:41 huginn    04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=9322 major, P5 - low, ---, kyle, In Discussion , If multiple transfers exist (from circ/branchtransfers.pl), completing one completes them all
20:41 huginn    04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8292 major, P5 - low, ---, kyle, In Discussion , clicking ignore on hold cancels transfer
20:43 cait      hm all 3 look pretty non-alive :(
20:44 wizzyrea  yep because nobody wants to spend the time to properly fix it. They just want to fix the symptoms.
20:45 cait      I think probably they don't know how to fix it right
20:45 wizzyrea  bc nobody wants to pay for that kind of plumbing work.
20:45 cait      funding bigger projects... always the issue
20:45 cait      not sure how to do it
20:45 wizzyrea  funding projects that aren't "add this feature from my old ILS"
20:46 rangi     yes
20:46 cait      you don't have to tell me :)
20:46 rangi     THAT
20:46 wizzyrea  bravery and audacity people!
20:46 rangi     koha is not a cheap replacement for your old proprietary pile of crap
20:46 rangi     stop trying to make it that
20:46 wizzyrea  ^ so much this
20:46 rangi     it's much better than that, if you let it be
20:47 cait      the bad thing is - that our libraries would just want that too - because holds around here are supposed to work differently - at least they seem to agree that they should *sigh*
20:47 cait      ohwell
20:48 cait      trying to get that tranfer slip now again
20:49 cait      grr.
20:50 * cait    is going to give up on that for now
20:50 cait      now the callnumber and barcode don't print on the hold slip... with the transfer.
20:50 cait      but they printd nicely on the hold slip without the transfer
20:53 * cait    is just going to pretend she didn't see that
21:13 eythian   hi
21:13 wahanui   niihau, eythian
21:14 wizzyrea  cait: transfers are a sticky business.
21:14 wizzyrea  it's not just you
21:15 cait      wizzyrea: thx
21:15 wizzyrea  those bugs I highlighted earlier, fixing them might well sort transfers.
21:15 wizzyrea  or at least get it a long way along the line
21:15 cait      hm yeah
21:15 cait      but seems they got stuck becuase we couldn't agree on a solution?
21:16 wizzyrea  because no one wants to tear out the guts of transfers
21:16 cait      i can kinda understand that
21:27 cait      oh rangi or wizzyrea - could you put a reminder about the irc meeting into the motd?
21:27 cait      http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting,_9_October_2013
21:36 wizzyrea  since when have you been able to click the labels in the permission list to expand the permissions?
21:36 wizzyrea  their style is funny, but the function is kind of neat
21:37 wizzyrea  it's the only link in the staff client that is black, turning red (instead of blue, turning green) (that I know of)
21:41 cait      @later tell tcohen - 10609 is for you :)
21:41 huginn    cait: The operation succeeded.
21:58 eythian   Who wants their name in signoff lights? That's right, you do! Refer bug 10944 for more information.
21:58 huginn    04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10944 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Needs Signoff , Mixed content warnings in results and detail with Amazon images on https
21:58 eythian   why's it allocated to oleonard, that's not right.
21:58 wizzyrea  because he's the default for opac-y things
21:59 cait      wizzyrea: you shoud ltake it :)
21:59 eythian   odd, I apparently didn't add my patch to it.
21:59 * eythian fixes that.
22:03 cait      oh
22:03 cait      ok, time to sleep- night all
22:03 eythian   later caiter
22:03 cait      lol
22:06 rangi     bug 10908
22:06 huginn    04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=10908 blocker, P1 - high, ---, robin, Signed Off , Fix broken auth_by_bind LDAP mode
23:43 eythian   http://epubebookeditions.com.au/ <-- interesting, though I suspect they're all public domain. This said, if they're tidying them up and making good quality versions, go them.