Time  Nick           Message
00:47 libsysguy      what is the reason for the chanserv message on signin?
00:47 jcamins_away   What message?
00:47 wahanui        hmmm... message is a warning not an error.
00:48 libsysguy      i get a PM from chanserv every time i sign in
00:48 libsysguy      welcoming me to the koha board
00:49 jcamins_away   Ah. No idea.
00:49 libsysguy      i just saw rangi get +o-ed by the same name
00:49 libsysguy      so i was just curious
01:02 jcamins_away   This channel is managed by chanserv.
01:02 jcamins_away   That keeps the channel from popping out of existence if everyone disconnects.
01:02 jcamins_away   I think.
01:02 Guest3040      libsysguy: ChanServ is part of OFTC's IRC Services (common on most IRC networks). It can be charged with a number of things, including the granting of channel operator status and the welcome message you received upon joining the channel. Someone with the proper credentials configured ChanServ to send that message, and to op rangi, etc.
01:02 Guest3040      oh dear.
01:02 Guest3040      i seem to have lost my nick.
01:03 jeff           that's NickServ's fault. ;-)
01:03 libsysguy      haha yeah i also get nickserv messages jeff
01:04 libsysguy      you have successfully authenticated :p
03:24 mtompset       Greetings, #koha.
03:25 mtompset       Greetings, dcook.
03:27 dcook          Hi ya mtompset :)
03:28 dcook          I'm just about to run off for lunch, but I hope your auth readings went well the other day
03:28 mtompset       Still reading and reading.
03:34 mtompset       3.4.8? I thought there was agreement to axe the 3.4?
03:39 mtompset       I just checked environment variables on our 3.6.3 system which is behind a proxy in firefox and IE, and my development VM in firefox and IE, and found that REMOTE_USER is not defined.
03:40 mtompset       Is REMOTE_USER ever defined, and how?
03:46 chris_n        off-topic a bit, but does anyone know of issues when using perl Socket in scripts run by apache?
03:51 mtompset       Sorry... no idea.
03:53 chris_n        it seems that a call to Socket via cgi consumes 99.9% of the quad-core cpu as well as 99.9% of available memory :-P
03:53 chris_n        not nice....
03:54 mtompset       That makes no sense.
03:55 mtompset       What are you running Socket for?
03:56 chris_n        I've a script which acts as a client to connect to a port on a building automation system
03:56 chris_n        I'm working on a web interface for the script
03:56 mtompset       Make sure to sanitize your inputs. ;)
03:57 chris_n        right ;-)
03:57 mtompset       http://xkcd.com/327/
03:57 * chris_n      briefly imagines librarians controling the HVAC systems in their libraries via koha
03:58 chris_n        lol
03:58 mtompset       Interesting thought, but a tad out of scope for Koha, don't you think? :)
04:00 chris_n        probably for all but the most exotic control freaks
04:07 mtompset       Shhhh! Their listening. ;)
04:08 mtompset       Ah, I think I found the answer to my question about REMOTE_USER.
04:09 mtompset       http://www.cgi101.com/class/ch3/text.html
04:09 mtompset       Leads me to believe that REMOTE_USER is only defined if there was .htaccess authentication on the directory.
04:18 mtompset       Koha doesn't use .htaccess authentication at all anymore, does it?!
04:56 cait           hi #koha
04:59 mtompset       Greetings, cait.
04:59 mtompset       I'm still tinkering with the labyrinth of doom, cait.
04:59 mtompset       Can I blame you? ;)
05:00 cait           why me? :)
05:00 mtompset       Wasn't it you and rangi that sent me in? :P
05:03 mtompset       Oh wait... this is the maze of doom that jcamins suggested I enter... never mind. This is Auth, not Search.
05:04 dcook          I'm looking at Search now :P
05:04 dcook          Mind you, it's a local customization, so I can't get too grumpy..
05:12 * Oak          waves
05:18 mtompset       Greetings, Oak.
05:19 mtompset       Long time, no chat. How are things over there?
05:20 Oak            hello mtompset :)
05:20 Oak            things are okay here. i hope you are good.
05:21 mtompset       As good as can be, I suppose.
05:22 dcook          hi Oak :)
05:22 * dcook        celebrates finding the solution to his problem.
05:23 mtompset       Congratulations, dcook.
05:23 dcook          Thanks :)
05:23 mtompset       It would be better if wasn't a localized problem, and then you could help the rest of us too. ;)
05:23 dcook          We have two very similar functions in two separate modules, and we weren't populating a variable in one of them, which caused a total (but very unnoticeable) failure
05:23 dcook          Hehe
05:23 dcook          True!
05:24 dcook          It might be one I spin back to the community, but it would require some adjustments
05:25 dcook          Essentially, it puts a link in the search results. If there is just one link in the bib record, it replicates that. If there are multiple, it takes you into the record (and just acts like a pointer).
05:26 dcook          On top of that, we've added an onclick event to prompt users to log in, if the link is for a database requiring authentication
05:26 dcook          It looks like the idea is to use a single sign-on, although I don't think it's gotten that far yet..
05:27 dcook          Hmm, yeah...just a note that further authentication is needed.
05:27 * dcook        shrugs
05:28 dcook          Probably not that useful
05:28 mtompset       And that is the maze I'm looking at right now, dcook... SSO, authentication, SAML 2.0
05:32 dcook          Mmm, hence that earlier question about REMOTE_USER
05:33 dcook          I would love to know the answer to the whole auth situation
05:33 dcook          Mind you, I'm sure everyone would :p
05:34 dcook          What are you trying to do?
05:43 mtompset       first, understand what is there.
05:43 mtompset       second, figure out how to either:
05:43 mtompset       1) rewrite the mess (which has been suggested to me several times)
05:43 mtompset       or
05:43 mtompset       2) hack in SAML 2.0 authentication.
05:44 mtompset       I'm at checkauth in C4::Auth...
05:45 mtompset       I've thought that we don't use .htaccess authentication, and the first if might not be necessary any more.
05:45 mtompset       I'm working at understanding CGI::Session.
05:45 mtompset       Slowly but surely, I'll understand this code.
05:46 mtompset       once understood, then I'll be in a position to understand what to do with respect to SAML 2.0 authentication.
05:50 dcook          Power to you!
05:50 dcook          The customization I just mentioned..
05:51 dcook          We also set a system preference based on the base URL of the link in the record, so when you click the link for a specific website, you can get a pop-up telling you a username and password that you've stored in your syspref
05:51 dcook          Of course, this only works for storing 1 u/n and p/w, but it looks like how we're getting around actual remote authentication
05:51 dcook          Not a terrible solution for small special libraries
05:51 * mtompset     cringes, "Functional, but ugly if you want to scale."
05:52 dcook          No kidding, eh?
05:52 dcook          That's why you're working on Auth ;)
05:53 mtompset       'eh?' -- Why did you say 'eh?'?
05:54 mtompset       Seems like others are as well, and I suspect they'll succeed before I do, but at least I'll understand the mess.
05:55 dcook          Understanding is always good :)
05:55 mtompset       Understanding is necessary to make better changes.
05:55 dcook          Very true
05:55 wahanui        I know. That's why I said it.
05:55 dcook          That's my goal :)
05:55 dcook          As for "eh", I'm Canadian :p
05:56 dcook          I'm pretty sure other people in the world say it as well, but it's a (semi-)stereotypical expression that we say from time to time.
05:57 dcook          It doesn't really mean anything. And it's not a question. The ? mark just denotes rising intonation when we're speaking
05:58 mtompset       Okay, you weren't saying as a Canadian jab... -- Greetings, fellow Canadian. :)
05:58 dcook          :o
05:59 mtompset       Which province?
05:59 mtompset       (or territory)
05:59 dcook          Good question
05:59 dcook          Born and raised in Saskatchewan, but most recently of Vancouver, BC
05:59 dcook          (as if it were its own province :P)
05:59 dcook          You?
05:59 wahanui        You are welcome, I also tried the other - moving js out of translated paths
05:59 mtompset       Ontario.
06:00 mtompset       I studied out in Langley, BC. But somehow everyone does seem to equate Vancouver as B.C.
06:00 dcook          It's hard not to sometimes.
06:00 dcook          Where in Ontario are you from?
06:01 dcook          I've bounced all over Sk, myself
06:01 mtompset       Doesn't everyone equate Toronto with Ontario? ;)
06:01 dcook          I was totally going to say Toronto, but I thought better of it :p
06:02 dcook          You're in the Philippines now though, right? What takes you there?
06:06 mtompset       Well, Greater-Toronto-Area. No sense saying the Town's name.
06:06 mtompset       My organization seconded me to SIL Asia Area whose headquarters are here.
06:07 dcook          Fair enough
06:07 mtompset       I'm in the Philippines until November.
06:07 dcook          That's rather exciting
06:08 dcook          I originally came to Australia on a 6 month work term, but now it looks like I'll be working with Koha here for at least the next few years
06:10 mtompset       Well, I had worked here before in my previous assignment. I met my wife here. So, it's like my second home now. :)
06:10 dcook          Sounds like a classic story
06:10 dcook          I met my partner a few months ago, and while I have to go back to Canada for a few months at the end of the year, Australia is certainly my second home as well now
06:14 Amit_Gupta     heya dcook
06:15 mveron         Good morning #koha
06:16 mtompset       Greetings, Amit_Gupta and mveron.
06:17 mveron         Hi mtompset
06:17 dcook          hey Amit_Gupta
06:17 wahanui        Amit_Gupta is from Nucsoft Osslabs
06:17 dcook          Allo mveron
06:17 mveron         Hi dcook
06:19 mveron         Just submitted patch for bug 7628 - Looking for someone to sign off :-)
06:19 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7628 normal, P3, ---, veron, Needs Signoff , Required format is not enforced for Patron Categories
06:20 * dcook        will take a look
06:20 mveron         Thanks, dcook.
06:22 dcook          No worries. While I look at that, might you take a look at one of mine as well?
06:23 dcook          It's pretty simple, but I think Bug 8448 would be a good one to get out
06:23 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8448 major, P2, ---, dcook, Needs Signoff , Holds Awaiting Pickup : Cancelling a hold on a waiting item with multiple holds displays a blank screen instead of a warning prompt
06:24 mveron         dcook: OK, will do...
06:24 dcook          I'm just adding a test scenario comment
06:25 dcook          I haven't signed off before, so it might take me a bit, but I'm looking forward to it!
06:25 * dcook        stops being a newb now
06:25 dcook          for now*
06:27 alex_a         bonjour
06:27 dcook          salut, alex_a
06:27 Amit_Gupta     heya alex_a
06:45 julian_m       hello
06:45 wahanui        what's up, julian_m
06:47 reiveune       hello
06:47 wahanui        hi, reiveune
06:49 clrh           jcamins_away: I saw you message, I think you are talking about "rfc search engine" I will check it
07:05 gaetan_B       hello :)
07:05 dcook          mverson, it looks good, but git is telling me that you have some trailing whitespaces
07:05 dcook          mveron *
07:05 dcook          hey gaetan_B
07:05 wahanui        gaetan_B is working at Biblibre and did the nice new start page together with asaurat or a fan of icons
07:06 mveron         dcook: The white spaces were corrected automatically by git bz, as far as I know. The message is OK.
07:06 dcook          Sounds good to me.
07:08 mveron         dcook: Still testing on your bug. Will take a moment.
07:11 Amit_Gupta     heya paul_p
07:11 dcook          No worries, mveron
07:11 dcook          It looks like I screwed up my sign off...
07:22 dcook          There we go, mveron. It's the first patch that I've signed off, so I've left a bit of a mess in trying to do it right. Sorry for all the comments and obsolete attachments.
07:25 mveron         dcook: Great, thanks a lot! - You are faster then I was with my first SO. Only thing to do now is to switch status from Needs Sign-off to Signed off.
07:26 dcook          I believe that I have :)
07:28 paul_p         good morning #koha
07:29 dcook          morning, paul_p
07:32 paul_p         evening dcook
07:41 dcook          Time for me to call it a night! As much as I would like to work on Koha all night, I had best be home to pack up my flat!
07:41 dcook          Au revoir
08:06 jenkins_koha   Starting build #98 for job Koha_3.8.x (previous build: SUCCESS)
08:14 cait-m__       hi all
08:18 slef           hi cait-m__
08:36 * mtompset     grumbles, "It is so much easier to read and fix other people's code. Why can't I get this simple object inheritance working?!"
08:37 mtompset       Greetings, cait-m__
08:37 mtompset       Greetings, julian_m
08:38 julian_m       hello mtompset
08:40 mtompset       have you written anything that does class inheritance in perl, julian_m?
08:41 rangi          ISA
08:41 mtompset       I did somthing like that.
08:42 mtompset       our @ISA = qw(MyAuth);
08:42 mtompset       where the file that has this is MyAuth/MyAuth1.pm and MyAuth.pm is being referred to.
08:43 mtompset       I don't want to write a new() for Auth1, Auth2, etc.
08:43 rangi          hmm not quiet
08:43 rangi          quite even
08:44 mtompset       Suggestions, rangi?
08:44 rangi          use base qw(MyAuth)l
08:45 rangi          typo l = ;
08:45 mtompset       okay... I'll try that.
08:45 rangi          if you are rewritting auth, id start in Koha
08:45 rangi          Koha::Auth
08:46 rangi          Koha::Auth::Native
08:46 rangi          Koha::Auth::Shibboleth
08:46 rangi          etc
08:46 mtompset       I'm playing with classes first, since I'm weak in them.
08:46 rangi          youve read the perl oop pages eh?
08:46 mtompset       Yes, but they sometimes leave more questions than help.
08:47 rangi          http://perldoc.perl.org/perlootut.html
08:47 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @twistedwillow: "Demo on @kohails this morning"
08:48 mtompset       That still doesn't work.
08:48 mtompset       Tell's me I haven't defined new.
08:49 mtompset       Let's see... where's a pastebin when you want one.
08:49 mtompset       paste?
08:49 wahanui        paste is found at http://paste.koha-community.org
08:50 pastebot       "mtompset" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "MyAuth1.pm attempt" (16 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/36
08:51 rangi          you dont want that @ISA if you are using base
08:51 mtompset       Ah.
08:51 mtompset       okay... cutting and checking.
08:51 rangi          and without seeing MyAuth i cant tell if that will work
08:51 mtompset       Still says it can't find new.
08:52 mtompset       Okay...
08:52 mtompset       next paste...
08:52 rangi          take a look in C4/Cache.pm
08:52 rangi          an C4/Cache/Memcached.pm
08:52 eythian        I'm wondering if we're going to do this OO thing properly, we should decide on a framework for it. Perl
08:52 eythian        ...
08:52 eythian        Perl
08:52 eythian        gah
08:52 eythian        Perl's default OO is a bit funky.
08:52 rangi          i use Class::Accessor
08:53 mtompset       Yes, but I should know it.
08:53 pastebot       "mtompset" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "MyAuth.pm "parent"" (41 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/37
08:59 hemant         hi
08:59 wahanui        hola, hemant
08:59 hemant         i m a new user of koha can u help me
09:00 hemant         u there?
09:00 wahanui        hmmm... there is no spoon. or something like the second with holes like the first... or a patch from jared soemwhere removing some of the nozebra code
09:00 hemant         i want add books
09:00 hemant         then how?
09:01 hemant         ??
09:02 rangi          manual?
09:02 wahanui        well, manual is at http://www.koha-community.org/documentation
09:02 rangi          what version of koha hemant ?
09:04 hemant         3.06.05.000
09:06 hemant         hi
09:07 hemant         u there?
09:07 wahanui        it has been said that there is no spoon. or something like the second with holes like the first... or a patch from jared soemwhere removing some of the nozebra code
09:08 rangi          http://manual.koha-community.org/3.6/en/
09:08 wahanui        i think http://manual.koha-community.org/3.6/en/ is the whole manual
09:08 hemant         thx
09:09 jenkins_koha   Project Koha_3.8.x build #98: SUCCESS in 1 hr 3 min: http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_3.8.x/98/
09:09 jenkins_koha   * oleonard: Fix for Bug 6855 - List bullet showing in wrong place on error message
09:09 jenkins_koha   * oleonard: Bug 8398 - Missing image file in staff global css
09:09 jenkins_koha   * jcamins: Bug 8386: Error in duplicate detection message for authorities
09:09 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6855 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Pushed to Stable , bullet point showing in wrong place on error message
09:09 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8398 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Pushed to Stable , Missing image file in staff global css
09:09 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8386 normal, P5 - low, ---, jcamins, Pushed to Stable , Error in duplicate detection message for authorities
09:13 Amit_Gupta     heya hemant
09:13 hemant         yes amit
09:13 hemant         from india amit?
09:13 Amit_Gupta     yes
09:13 hemant         from where?
09:14 Amit_Gupta     Bangalore and you
09:14 Amit_Gupta     ?
09:14 hemant         Delhi
09:14 Amit_Gupta     which library
09:15 hemant         i Do"t know under stand ing this systems
09:15 hemant         can u help me?
09:16 hemant         amit
09:16 Amit_Gupta     r u from  which library
09:17 hemant         centerville
09:21 * eythian      is not convinced that's correct.
09:30 * mtompset     waves bye for now.
09:41 mtompset       @wunder EDI
09:41 huginn         mtompset: The current temperature in Mid Kinleith, Currie, United Kingdom is 11.7°C (10:39 AM BST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 98%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1003 hPa (Steady).
09:42 mtompset       Is the meeting over or elsewhere?
09:44 Amit_Gupta     @wunder Bangalore
09:44 huginn         Amit_Gupta: The current temperature in Bangalore, India is 23.0°C (11:30 AM IST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 21.0°C.
09:44 Amit_Gupta     @wunder New Delhi
09:44 huginn         Amit_Gupta: The current temperature in New Delhi, India is 40.0°C (2:30 PM IST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 33%. Dew Point: 21.0°C. Pressure: 29.42 in 996 hPa (Falling).
09:45 Amit_Gupta     @wunder Dehradun
09:45 huginn         Amit_Gupta: The current temperature in Dehradun, India is 32.0°C (11:30 AM IST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 51%. Dew Point: 23.0°C. Pressure: 29.41 in 996 hPa.
09:45 drojf          mtompset: Current UTC (or GMT/Zulu)-time used: Mittwoch, 18. Juli 2012, 09:42:21. so i guess it's in 20 minutes
09:45 drojf          thanks for reminding me :D
09:46 mtompset       Can I get my karma back? :P
09:46 drojf          mtompset++ # best meeting reminder ever
09:46 mtompset       is there a meeting agenda somewhere?
09:47 drojf          http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting,_18_July_2012
09:47 mtompset       ++drojf
09:47 mtompset       thanks.
09:51 Amit_Gupta     hi
09:51 wahanui        hi, Amit_Gupta
09:53 eythian        lunchtime is a terrible time for a meeting
09:54 drojf          it's always lunchtime somewhere
09:54 cjh            heh
09:57 mtompset       ++drojf++ work? ;)
09:59 mtompset       Yes, it's always lunchtime somewhere. And if we move fast enough, we could have lunch forever! ;)
10:00 thd            However, 6 AM is a fine time for a meeting.
10:00 Amit_Gupta     3:30 pm here in india
10:01 Amit_Gupta     heya jwagner
10:01 Brooke         o/
10:01 Amit_Gupta     heya brooke
10:01 drojf          hi Brooke
10:01 jwagner        Good morning or whatever time of day it is...
10:02 Brooke         #startmeeting
10:02 wahanui        if there is a meeting then Brooke must want me
10:02 huginn         Meeting started Wed Jul 18 10:00:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is Brooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
10:02 huginn         Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
10:02 slef           mmm lunch... not for 2h and I've no food with me :/
10:02 Brooke         #introductions
10:02 slef           Brooke: not #topic?
10:02 Brooke         #topic introductions
10:02 wahanui        #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
10:02 oleonard       #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries
10:02 jwagner        #info Jane Wagner LibLime/PTFS
10:02 Brooke         slef: half the time I get to do both ;)
10:03 drojf          #info Mirko Tietgen, Language centre @ HU Berlin, Germany
10:03 slef           #info MJ Ray, software.coop, mobile in England :/
10:03 thd            #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogne, New York City
10:03 davidnind      #info David Nind, Wellington, New Zealand
10:03 mtompset       #info Mark Tompsett, SIL Asia Area, based in Philippines
10:03 dpavlin        #info Dobrica Pavlinusic, Croatia
10:04 eythian        #info Robin Sheat, Catalyst IT
10:04 paul_p         #info paul_p Marseille, BibLibre, France, current Koha RM
10:04 thd            #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
10:04 paul_p         good (early) morning USA !
10:04 thd            s/Agogne/Agogme/
10:04 slef           (standing in line at the bank)
10:06 Amit_Gupta     #info Amit gupta Nucsoft
10:06 Brooke         #topic Announcements
10:07 thd            ALA would like to announce that MARC was murdered at their executive meeting.
10:07 oleonard       Agenda: http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting,_18_July_2012#Agenda
10:07 thd            MARC's ghost is recovering ;0
10:08 Brooke         #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting,_18_July_2012
10:08 Brooke         speaking of that sort of thing...
10:08 Brooke         #topic Roadmap for 3.4
10:08 Brooke         Are we killing this?
10:09 mtompset       I thought that was the consensus from what I read of last meetings logs.
10:09 slef           who's rm? polled the list?
10:09 oleonard       Did we even have a quorum last time?
10:09 Brooke         don't believe it has one
10:09 Brooke         #help someone poll the list about end of life for 3.4
10:10 thd            Brooke, it is never necessary to formally kill a branch.  Branches like standards die their own quiet death eventually.
10:10 eythian        I kinda thought that 3.4 would have dies when 3.8 came out.
10:10 Brooke         we don't have a formal quorum Owen, so it's a bit hard to count if we've got one.
10:10 slef           (sorry, slow web here)
10:10 eythian        thd: I think it's good too kill them, just to announce that people should be moving now.
10:11 slef           if anyone wants to fund 3.4 rm nd someone will workl on it, let them, else call it orphaned?
10:11 paul_p         I think Koha 3.4 is de-facto orphaned
10:11 oleonard       It should at least be known that there will be no more releases unless someone takes charge of it
10:11 Brooke         I'm pretty sure someone sent that out to listserv months back, lemme see if I can dig it up
10:11 thd            Exactly, orphans are merely orphaned.  There is no need to try to kill them.
10:11 eythian        I'm of the opinion it'd be best to declare an end-of-life for things like that.
10:12 slef           paul_p: make it official, encourage more upgrades
10:12 eythian        thd: there is, or people don't know they're orphaned
10:12 paul_p         slef agreed
10:12 thd            We should announce an orphan but not a killing.
10:12 thd            Killing is unnecessary.
10:13 thd            ... and mean.
10:13 oleonard       If no one has done it by then I'll send a message to the list in 3hrs. We can have the discussion there
10:13 eythian        Too many people are still using old versions as it is.
10:14 Brooke         think this is exhausted
10:14 slef           see
10:14 Brooke         #topic Roadmap to 3.6
10:14 slef           #link http://www.debian.org/wnpp for debian Orphan and RFA examples
10:14 thd            Announce that the orphans are exhausted.
10:15 paul_p         slef = page not found :\
10:15 oleonard       A few beatings usually eke out a little more effort from exhausted orphans
10:15 thd            :)
10:15 Brooke         #info there will be no more porridge for 3.4
10:16 Brooke         anyone have anything on 3.6
10:16 slef           paul_p: drat.
10:16 eythian        There's now a debian repo tracking 3.4
10:16 eythian        err
10:16 eythian        3.6
10:16 paul_p         eythian = debian repo ? which url ?
10:16 Brooke         Sweet As, bro. :)
10:16 slef           #link http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp for debian Orphan and RFA examples
10:17 eythian        http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_3.6_on_Debian_Squeeze <-- the usual place
10:17 eythian        Which means we have packages for oldstable (3.6) squeeze (3.8) and squeeze-dev (master)
10:18 eythian        I know those names don't make sense.
10:18 slef           docs > sense
10:19 Brooke         any other noteworthy 3.6 news?
10:19 mtompset       There was a string freeze announced recently for 3.6.7 coming out shortly.
10:20 paul_p         dashboard says 2012-07-15 - String freeze for 3.6.7
10:20 Brooke         #info There's a Debian repo tracking
10:20 paul_p         and 2012-07-22 - Release date for 3.6.7
10:20 Brooke         #info and 2012-07-22 - Release date for 3.6.7
10:21 Brooke         #info 2012-07-15 - String freeze for 3.6.7
10:21 Brooke         #info http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_3.6_on_Debian_Squeeze for the repo link
10:21 Brooke         #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_3.6_on_Debian_Squeeze
10:22 Brooke         sorry, want to get all of that in the minutes, so I've to be a bit spammy :)
10:22 paul_p         Brooke = I think it's better for readers of minutes to have it, so it's not spammy imo
10:23 Brooke         anything else on 3.6 or are we movin' on?
10:23 paul_p         move on !
10:23 mtompset       Only jcamins would have more.
10:23 Brooke         crawlin' out of the stone age then...
10:24 Brooke         #topic Roadmap for 3.8
10:25 davidnind      2012-07-15 - String freeze for 3.8.3
10:26 davidnind      2012-07-22 - Release date for 3.8.3
10:26 slef           can someone repaste that with #info please?
10:26 Brooke         #info 2012-07-15 - String freeze for 3.8.3
10:26 Brooke         you're someone too slef :P
10:26 Brooke         #info 2012-07-22 - Release date for 3.8.3
10:27 slef           yeah bopy paste while walking from post office to bakery not good
10:27 drojf          lol
10:27 slef           even typing not good
10:27 slef           and I've one of the kohacon signs tied to my back ;)
10:28 Brooke         rangi have anything to add?
10:29 paul_p         rangi sleeping it seems ;-)
10:29 Brooke         lies, he never sleeps, and I've reams of IRC logs to show it
10:29 Brooke         he, like Galen, is prolly a bot...
10:29 slef           left bakery - sorry if you wanted anything
10:29 mtompset       I don't believe he did an intro, so probably not likely to add anything. :)
10:30 thd            mtompset++
10:31 Brooke         #topic Roadmap for 3.10
10:31 * slef         pokes you
10:31 Brooke         take it away paul
10:31 paul_p         yep, i'm here -and not a bot- ;-)
10:31 mtompset       thank you, thd.
10:31 * oleonard     thanks paul_p for being here
10:31 * mtompset     scowls at slef. ;)
10:31 paul_p         You've seen in my previous monthly RM newsletter that a very important patch has been pushed, to start the move to solr.
10:32 paul_p         it causes jenkins to be unstable atm, but that's a not a "big" unstability, and there are some patches underway to fix it.
10:32 slef           move to, or move to add support for?
10:32 oleonard       the latter
10:32 slef           phew
10:32 paul_p         for now, my main concern is bug 8251 that we haven't killed yet, and is a big problem for all libraries using fines in days
10:32 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8251 critical, P1 - high, ---, koha, Passed QA , Patrons are systematically debarred at checkin
10:33 Brooke         which would be like heaps of libraries :(
10:33 paul_p         this bug is mostly caused by the switch to hourly loan, and changes in date comparisons.
10:34 paul_p         for now, 4 patches have been submitted to fix the problem, but it still not fixed. I plan to work this afternoon on this one.
10:34 paul_p         (and it's a 3.8 problem, because 3.8 has the bug !)
10:34 slef           paul_p++ and should that be a blocker for 3.10?
10:35 paul_p         I've started a thread on koha-devel about release process, a lot of discussion here, I think i'll continue the discussion soon.
10:35 Brooke         #help help Paul with bug 8251 - libraries that record fines in days really need you!
10:35 * mtompset     notes that is a reason why we're only upgrading to 3.6.7 next.
10:35 paul_p         slef = I strongly hope it will be before 3.10 !!!
10:36 paul_p         The pile of ENH waiting for a signoff is very large, and I wouldn't like to see all of them being signed-off & passing QA & pushed too close from the release.
10:37 Brooke         paul I have stuff for this under its proper topic. Don't let me forget :)
10:37 paul_p         that's the problem the thread still don't address
10:38 paul_p         saying 2 months before the release "I won't push any ENH" mean that the freeze will occur in august, 22, which is "tomorrow"
10:38 paul_p         I don't want to do that.
10:38 paul_p         OTOH, ppl seem not to be happy with the idea of saying .0 is a announced as beta
10:38 paul_p         is there a 3rd option ? which one ?
10:38 paul_p         that's my biggest point for 3.10 for now.
10:39 Brooke         #info problem with release cycle
10:40 paul_p         another one = I had not a lot of feedback on my POC for thread "http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Namespace_RFC, moving ahead"
10:40 mtompset       So when is 3.10 tentatively coming out?
10:40 paul_p         mtompset = that's my personal debate atm !
10:41 paul_p         either keep oct 22, say there will be a 2 months freeze for large enh, meaning everything must be in before aug, 22
10:41 paul_p         or keep oct 22 as .0 release, but clearly announce it will be a beta
10:41 paul_p         or a 3rd option I don't see atm
10:42 paul_p         (4th option = change nothing, but I think it's not a good option !)
10:42 slef           paul_p: why 2mo freeze? could we shorten if lots pledge to test+fix a lot?
10:42 slef           paul_p: and can we be braver at reverting buggy enh?
10:42 paul_p         slef = it has been proven for 3.4 and 3.8 that it does not work well
10:43 mtompset       pledges don't mean anything. Don't count the chickens before they hatch.
10:43 paul_p         slef = it's hard to revert ENH, because they usually have DB updates
10:43 Brooke         we could do a 9 or 12 month release cycle #justsayin
10:43 rangi          worked for 3.6 though
10:43 rangi          longer cycle just shifts the problem
10:43 paul_p         hey, rangi is not sleeping ;-)
10:43 paul_p         I agree it just shifts the problem.
10:44 slef           paul_p: leave db update hope to reintro in x.1 or x.2, but revert code?
10:44 mtompset       that isn't always possible, slef.
10:44 thd            slef++
10:44 paul_p         slef ... maybe ... i'll think a little bit more of this option... not sure
10:44 rangi          it is more often than not
10:44 slef           mtompset: no, not always
10:44 slef           mtompset: but 90% I suspect
10:44 thd            mtompset: When is it not possible to revert code?
10:44 paul_p         agreed with slef
10:44 Brooke         shifting the problems to the next release just shifts the problem.
10:45 davidnind      First option seems sensible to meet six month release cycle, and provide a stable release..
10:45 slef           mtompset: this is release engineering not utopia
10:45 mtompset       timestamp vs. date (db change)
10:45 slef           thd: when someone built on it
10:45 rangi          ppl running from dev .. not from releases will be the only ones affected by db updates anyway
10:46 thd            slef: We need more independence between features to avoid building on untested code.
10:47 rangi          3.6.0 had one month feature freeze
10:47 davidnind      Better to have fewer enhancements and a stable release, rather than a buggy release (for reputation as a great product, if nothing else)
10:47 rangi          davidnind++
10:47 Brooke         I agree david
10:47 thd            davidmind++
10:47 mtompset       Quite true.
10:47 Brooke         also, Librarians are patient people. I can't say this enough
10:47 rangi          lol
10:47 rangi          they are not
10:48 rangi          they are like every other client
10:48 Brooke         perhaps some of the enhancements should be chunked smaller than they are
10:48 oleonard       davidnind++
10:48 slef           anyway, more list discussion?
10:48 slef           RAINING  HARD HERE NOW
10:48 rangi          ive had huge media megacorps more patient than tiny libraries
10:49 thd            However, if enhancements run independently of other code for a period of time, then it would be easy to exclude them if they are discovered to actually be buggy even after passing QA.
10:49 paul_p         other option/idea = branch 3.10 earlier (in august), to let enhancements being pushed in master, while stabilizing the 3.10 . atm, during freeze, ENH continues to be submitted, but are not pushed anymore, which tend to have ENH pushed later (not sure i'm very clear ...)
10:49 rangi          you'd have to run that by the RM for 3.12 .. since once 3.10 is branched, master is hers/his
10:49 slef           sorry all, I must get indsooers... pls postpone kohacon12 for me? bbi10
10:50 paul_p         rangi = right. I'll rise the idea on the mailing list
10:50 rangi          you could always push them to experimental or something, after the feature freeze
10:51 jcamins        #info Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services
10:51 mtompset       Do things ever come out of experimental?
10:52 rangi          i think given the currently instability of master
10:52 rangi          freezing sooner and bugfixing is the best plan
10:52 eythian_       Branch an -rc?
10:52 oleonard       It doesn't make sense to seek to push more enhancements just for the sake of making the release "more different"
10:53 thd            oleonard++
10:53 mtompset       I agree, oleonard
10:53 dpavlin        Q: would things like Bug 8418 would go in while in bugfix freeze?
10:53 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8418 critical, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, Needs Signoff , Koha::Calendar is_holiday ignores all user data
10:53 rangi          dpavlin: we are talkign feature freeze
10:53 paul_p         dpavlin = "critical" means it's not an ENH
10:53 dpavlin        ack
10:53 rangi          there is never a bugfix freeze
10:54 rangi          only feature and string
10:54 rangi          and string is soft
10:54 rangi          critical bug fixes that change strings usually get pushed anyway
10:54 thd            Making the release "more different" is only what should be done for releases which are not based on a calendar schedule.  We are doing calendar schedule releases.
10:55 Brooke         thd that's the problem
10:55 jcamins        But if the fix can be done without changing strings, that's to be prefered after string freeze.
10:55 rangi          no its the solution
10:55 Brooke         there's no logical rotation between enhancement and bugfixing versions
10:55 Brooke         we try it all at once in 6 months and that's madness.
10:55 rangi          to the problem of doing not calendar releases and 3.5 year releases
10:56 mtompset       Actually, 6 months is a good length of time, because this means there are two bursts of fixes as releases are coming out.
10:56 rangi          i disagree its madness, i think there are areas of improvement
10:56 paul_p         I don't want to switch back to feature releases ! the 6 months seems a good periodicity. We must stick with it !
10:56 rangi          paul_p++
10:57 slef           back
10:57 oleonard       Agreed, and that means sticking to an early feature freeze
10:57 mtompset       but does the feature freeze need to be 2 months? is 1 month enough?
10:57 oleonard       The enhancements can wait, but the bug fixes can't
10:57 paul_p         and I think that the early Feature Freeze goes with branching stable soon !
10:57 paul_p         s/soon/early/
10:57 oleonard       mtompset: That has not been the case historically
10:58 Brooke         we could rotate. we could have 6 months for bugfixing
10:58 Brooke         and 9 or 12 for enhancements
10:58 rangi          eeewww
10:58 paul_p         mtompset = anyway, i'll be in holiday from aug 4th to 26th, so the FF won't be on aug 22, because it would mean Aug 4th, that's too early !
10:58 thd            I think that the six month releases allow incremental improvement and encourage much more care in commits to not break things for major changes.
10:58 Brooke         I think the sticking to the deadline bit is way more important than picking an insane deadline and fitting services to it
10:58 oleonard       Brooke, I don't think this is the time or place to propose changes to the release cycle
10:59 paul_p         maybe switch from april/oct releases to may/nov, and have feature freeze sept 22 ?
10:59 Brooke         when is Owen? I bring it up, and I'm nearly always patronised.
10:59 oleonard       It should be discussed as part of the process of choosing a new RM
10:59 paul_p         oleonard right
10:59 jcamins        What is the benefit of May/November?
10:59 oleonard       ...not within the current release cycle
11:00 paul_p         jcamins = not feature freeze during summer holidays
11:00 jcamins        paul_p: ah.
11:00 jcamins        Got it.
11:00 mtompset       And this 6 month cycle, is it in stone, or flexible by a given amount of time?
11:00 rangi          hmm i would have thought holidays is perfect freeze time :)
11:00 thd            I have overcome my past objection to calendar releases with the commitment to continued bug fixes after release.
11:00 paul_p         mtompset = I would say nothing is in stone, but i'm strongly against changing it again !
11:01 rangi          and course thats only the northern summer :)
11:01 paul_p         rangi right. when are the southern summer holidays ?
11:01 rangi          december
11:01 rangi          january
11:01 rangi          march
11:01 rangi          whenever :)
11:02 eythian_       Whichever day summer falls on that year
11:02 Brooke         hang on, Kiwis come *off* holiday?
11:02 paul_p         are you implying it's always summer in NZ ? ;-) ( not what eythian_  is saying :D )
11:02 davidnind      We get summer? Yeh!
11:02 thd            Some projects work poorly with calendar releases.  Koha seems OK thus far.  Some GNU/Linux distributions using calendar releases cannot be trusted to actually work in my experience.
11:03 eythian_       Calendar releases also makes planning possible which is good.
11:03 rangi          thd: koha is a zillion times more stable now (even with the 3.8 bugs) than it was ever before
11:03 rangi          3.0.0 was a night mare
11:03 rangi          and it took 3 years
11:04 thd            rangi: I am making that point of concurrence.
11:04 Brooke         note that I've never proposed 3 years, and that was from constantly moving goalposts instead of honestly assessing things
11:04 Brooke         I think it's just as bad to introduce a buggy as version just to hit 6 months
11:04 mtompset       So it seems we all want stability.
11:05 rangi          yep, so longer feature freeze it is
11:05 oleonard       Yes
11:05 thd            I had previously, objected based on projects which are so large that they can never have a feature freeze early enough to fix all bugs which should be blockers.
11:05 paul_p         Brooke = when 3.8 was released, everything had been tested and it was supposed to be OK. Except there was some side effect the QA process has not detected.
11:05 rangi          thd: thats what happens with longer cycles
11:05 mtompset       Actually, has anyone actually developed a test plan for every module in Koha?
11:06 rangi          the more you cram in, the more likely it is to break
11:06 paul_p         mtompset = I know bywater is working on that atm.
11:06 rangi          mtompset: we have 57% subroutine coverage
11:06 paul_p         mtompset = and the problem is that there are so many options/sysprefs !
11:06 rangi          the most useful thing anyone can do for koha
11:06 rangi          is write more tests
11:07 rangi          it trumps features
11:07 jcamins        And we can do functionality regression tests, too!
11:07 rangi          yep
11:07 jcamins        #link wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Interface_testing_with_WWW::Mechanize
11:07 rangi          the problem is no one wants to pay anyone to do that
11:07 rangi          they want to pay for new features
11:07 jcamins        Brooke: will that link work?
11:07 * mtompset     was thinking the same thing, jacmins.
11:07 paul_p         for example, I just failed QA bug 6874, look at comment 32 to see why ! that's something I just discovered by chance !
11:07 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6874 enhancement, P3, ---, julian.maurice, Failed QA , File upload in MARC
11:07 jcamins        I didn't include the http://
11:07 thd            We need a road maintenance tax.
11:07 paul_p         rangi ++ for the problem of no one want to pay for that...
11:08 slef           rangi: someone gave a talk about that at kohacon...
11:08 Brooke         dunno, so I'll redo
11:08 rangi          :)
11:08 Brooke         #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Interface_testing_with_WWW::Mechanize
11:08 rangi          the tests catch more and more stuff, and with http::recorder and mechanize we can test js too
11:09 Brooke         so if that's happened in perpetuity
11:09 Brooke         can we work in a bugtesting fee to new features?
11:09 paul_p         discussing of this for 40mn now. Maybe we can close the discussion, I'll do a summary on koha-devel, and continue trying to find the best solution ?
11:09 Brooke         something has to address that gap.
11:09 Brooke         paul this is important
11:09 Brooke         which is why I've let it go for 40 minutes
11:09 rangi          paul_p: i think the feature freeze is all we can do for this release, too late in the cycle to do anything else
11:10 paul_p         Brooke = of course it's important ! (and I started it ;-) ) but we could discuss for hours !
11:10 * mtompset     nods.
11:10 Brooke         but it's not too late for next go
11:11 rangi          thats up to the people who write their proposals to be the next RM
11:12 rangi          if we are going to elect someone to the thankless task that it is, we should try to let them decide how they want to run it
11:12 rangi          and like if paul_p has, they ask for advice, we give it, but ultimately it's their release
11:13 joann          nodding here
11:13 mtompset       If we've agreed that there is a 2 month feature freeze and no freezes in summer, then wouldn't some time in November be the tentative release date for 3.10?
11:13 rangi          mtompset: we havent agreed anything
11:13 nengard        Okay - the results are in
11:13 paul_p         I think i'll discuss of this also with jcamins (unless there's another crazy that want to be RM ;-) )
11:14 rangi          the current release date is october 22, but paul_p can shift that as is his perogative
11:14 mtompset       but the 2 month feature freeze is a side effect of the desire for stability.
11:14 joann          drum roll;
11:14 nengard        I'm about to share the survey results
11:14 nengard        but the winner is Reno, NV
11:14 jcamins        paul_p: my fingers are crossed. :P
11:14 rangi          jcamins: not me :)
11:14 nengard        Unless someone thinks my math is wrong - which is why I'll share
11:14 paul_p         jcamins = which is really a bad thing to type on a keyboard ;-)
11:15 thd            please share
11:15 jcamins        paul_p: I know... thank goodness for tab complete!
11:15 slef           ok well if kohacon13 won't wait, I won't either. kohacon12 update 2/3rds of bills in, still + or - £200, too soon to tell. vids delayed by my move (no dsl hinders uploading), doing as time permits but it's hard
11:15 paul_p         nengard = you jump in the middle of the monthly meeting, and KohaCon13 is the next point ;-)
11:15 rangi          or we could put it on the agenda and le the meeting continue
11:15 Brooke         hang on
11:15 nengard        oops
11:15 nengard        sorry all
11:15 Brooke         lemme at least get the right topic up XD
11:15 slef           now I must go to mdeal with an unexpected problem. bye.
11:15 Brooke         #topic KohaCon 12
11:16 thd            It was on the agenda when I looked.
11:16 Brooke         It was also awesome, from what I heard ;)
11:16 thd            However, hugininn had not changed the topic yet.
11:16 Brooke         I wish slef had stuck around to qualify that billing bit
11:17 mtompset       I think he mentioned the other day that one of the places you stay hadn't sent the bill yet.
11:18 * jcamins      will rephrase: two-thirds of the bills have been received, and based on what they're expecting for the last couple bills (from the University of Edinburgh), they're expecting a shortfall of ~200GPB.
11:18 mtompset       stayed at...
11:18 mtompset       Right.
11:18 mtompset       Donations still welcome. ;)
11:18 jcamins        Exactly.
11:19 jcamins        GBP
11:19 Brooke         #help please donate to cover the last of KohaCon expenses. Just need 200ish quid
11:20 Brooke         #topic KohaCon 2013
11:20 rangi          Brooke: its + or -  200
11:21 rangi          so they may not
11:21 rangi          they need the final bill to come in, then he will let us know
11:22 mtompset       he said bills, not revenues. ;)
11:23 rangi          yes
11:23 rangi          they have money, it may cover it and have 200 left over, or they may have a shortfall
11:24 rangi          its too soon to know
11:24 nengard        Votes for KohaCon 13 (which I think I can post now) have been put on the wiki: http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Kohacon2013
11:24 * oleonard     must leave for work
11:25 rangi          those tally with my count
11:26 joann          night all
11:26 eythian        later joann
11:27 rangi          night joann
11:27 thd            The desert seems extraordinarily popular.
11:27 rangi          it had a huge flurry, nigeria was leading until about 4 days out
11:28 rangi          but as long as those 297 ppl who voted for reno in first place turn up, all good
11:28 * thd          was busy raising money for FSF and failed to vote before the polls closed.
11:29 nengard        rangi, there are a lot of librarians in CA and NV that I think voted so they'll be there
11:30 Brooke         #info Congratulations Reno
11:30 * thd          is from California originally and has spent much time in Reno.
11:30 nengard        can I email the lists with this info?
11:30 nengard        I have the email ready to go
11:30 mtompset       It's been announced, why not?
11:30 paul_p         nengard = I don't see why it should be delayed ;-)
11:31 drojf          that is gonne be one large kohacon
11:31 nengard        Okey dokey :)
11:31 Brooke         that'd be awesome
11:31 Brooke         nengard++
11:32 nengard        I'll post to the website as well
11:32 nengard        and the last one in the US was pretty darn big too
11:32 paul_p         drojf = why do you way it will be large ?
11:33 eythian        I assume we have to shoot a man just to watch him die, eh?
11:33 rangi          paul_p: so many votes, surely people only voted for something in first place if they intend to go .. 297 first place for reno
11:33 paul_p         (for KohaCon11, 600+ ppl voted for Mumbai. there were not 600 ppl attending, from far ;-) )
11:33 Brooke         yes eythian ;)
11:34 rangi          paul_p: exactly, so we dont want that again
11:35 mtompset       That's why I decided not to vote, because it is very unlikely that I will be going.
11:35 Brooke         I think there will be tonnes of Yanks on budgets that don't let them travel outside the US that will come
11:35 Brooke         plus a heap of Canadians :)
11:35 * Brooke       crosses her fingers for Mexico, too.
11:35 * mtompset     cheers for his home country of Canada. :)
11:36 Brooke         so let's do the bug signing off bit
11:36 Brooke         #topic Old Business - Bug Signoff
11:36 Brooke         so
11:36 Brooke         I went to wikimania
11:36 Brooke         which was super cool and super cheap
11:36 Brooke         (trust me this is related)
11:37 Brooke         and the Wikihow folks
11:37 Brooke         had this dashboard
11:37 Brooke         that was totally intuitive
11:37 Brooke         and I remember magnus and chris doing some visualisation work
11:37 Brooke         and how successful just the red, yellow, and orange bits were
11:37 Brooke         so I think that if we cross breed the bug list
11:37 Brooke         with the wiki dashboard
11:37 Brooke         it will be the coolest thing evar
11:38 mtompset       Sounds like a feature request. Is there a feature freeze in effect. ;)
11:38 rangi          http://dashboard.koha-community.org/
11:39 rangi          you can clone it and send patches
11:39 Brooke         they have weather mapped theirs
11:39 Brooke         so that there are picture sections
11:40 Brooke         and for say article writing, there are a billion waiting, so it's a thunderstorm
11:40 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @27point7: "interesting uniform idea (by @Tredok ) for koha teams all around the world? http://t.co/yiPSchdl ;-) #kohails"
11:40 * mtompset     smirks, "clone it and send patches. Sounds like enter a maze of doom."
11:40 Brooke         it's very clever for getting a really quick visual
11:41 jcamins        mtompset: actually, it's really simple.
11:41 mtompset       It's what rangi said to me regarding bug 5515.
11:41 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5515 major, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Leading 'and' in search never returns a result
11:42 jcamins        mtompset: okay, that one's a little scarier.
11:42 mtompset       Thankfully, I doubt it is like C4::Search.
11:42 thd            Brooke: Does this WikiMedia bug dashboard have a proper name?
11:42 rangi          you're mad if you are tyring to fix C4::Search
11:42 Brooke         thd I suspect it might live behind a small wall
11:43 Brooke         I will try and fish it up and post or link a pic someplace
11:43 rangi          you should be working in Koha::SearchEngine::*
11:43 Brooke         but I wanted to mention it cause I saw it and immediately thought "Koha!!!"
11:43 paul_p         @quote add rangi you're mad if you are tyring to fix C4::Search
11:43 huginn         paul_p: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
11:43 mtompset       And you had a typo, paul_p.
11:43 paul_p         hey, I thought I was registred !
11:43 paul_p         @quote 211
11:43 huginn         paul_p: I've exhausted my database of quotes
11:44 rangi          prolly need to identify
11:44 paul_p         nevermind.
11:44 rangi          @quote search identify
11:44 huginn         rangi: 1 found: #73: "<chris_n> owen: try /msg munin identify nick..."
11:44 rangi          @quote get 73
11:44 huginn         rangi: Quote #73: "<chris_n> owen: try /msg munin identify nick password" (added by owen at 12:38 PM, April 29, 2010)
11:44 rangi          s/munin/huginn/
11:45 Brooke         so the next thing on here is marking bugs that can be tested in the sandboxes
11:45 Brooke         I know there was just a sandbox improvement
11:47 Brooke         I don't see how a keyword would hurt
11:47 Brooke         does anyone else?
11:47 Brooke         if we authorise it, people should use it, yeah?
11:47 rangi          should != will
11:48 Brooke         nope. it's usually better the other way round
11:48 Brooke         authorised entries derived from the crowd
11:48 Brooke         but no matter
11:48 Brooke         any objections to keywords for bugzilla?
11:48 paul_p         not from me ;-)
11:48 jcamins        None from me.
11:48 mtompset       No, but how will people know the keyword(s)?
11:49 davidnind      not from me
11:49 drojf1         you can see the keywords, somewhere. i know that there is only "regression" in it, so i must have found it somehow
11:50 Brooke         how about just using sandboxtest?
11:50 thd            Brooke: what do you mean in terms of the specific application of keywords?
11:50 Brooke         look at the agenda
11:50 Brooke         I'll quote it
11:50 jcamins        thd: adding a keyword so that people can find bugs that can be tested in the sandbox.
11:50 Brooke         Use a keyword in Bugzilla to mark bugs/patches that can be tested with the sandboxes
11:51 mtompset       Okay, next uninformed question... what sandboxes?
11:51 Brooke         so I'm thinking if we used sandboxtest that could differentiate stuff that can be tested and not get it mucked up with bugs with sandboxen or general tests, but am I right?
11:51 Brooke         sandboxen are things that let me test stuff without having to do a whole heap of git schtuff
11:52 eythian        mtompset: look through your email from today
11:52 Brooke         should say folks where I said me XD
11:52 mtompset       okay...
11:52 davidnind      http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Sandboxes
11:53 thd            jcamins: I what way do keywords differ from the existing categories for bugs in bugzilla?
11:53 * rangi        wanders off to sleep
11:53 Brooke         night
11:53 jcamins        thd: they cut across categories.
11:53 jcamins        This is not for bugs in the sandbox implementation, it's for bugs that can be tested in sandboxes.
11:54 thd            I am all in favour of more metadata for bibliographic materials and bugs.
11:54 mtompset       davidnind++
11:55 mtompset       Why wouldn't all bugs be tested in the sandboxes?
11:56 jcamins        So, sandboxtest sounds good to me. What's next?
11:56 jcamins        mtompset: the sandboxes can't handle all types of modifications.
11:56 drojf1         mtompset: it does not work for all
11:56 mtompset       Ah, okay.
11:56 Brooke         Put the names of testers/signoffers in the release notes (more status)
11:56 Brooke         by the way, thanks for everyone's patience
11:56 Brooke         this feels long because it is: we essentially skived off with no meeting last time.
11:57 * libsysguy    will have to catch up in the logs
11:57 Brooke         I think this one is cool as long as someone *wants* acknowledgement
11:57 mtompset       Isn't this related to jcamins suggestion of Sponsored-by?
11:57 paul_p         mtompset = sandboxes can't handle update database very well atm, and don't handle any zebra configuration change
11:58 thd            2 UTC is a problematic time for much of the current distribution of participants in Koha.
11:58 jcamins        Anyone who doesn't want acknowledgement can easily be removed from the release notes.
11:58 jcamins        mtompset: yes. It's all of a piece. :)
11:58 eythian        thd: that's why things rotate
11:58 paul_p         if someone want to improve them, he's welcomed, of course ;-)
11:58 Brooke         it's plum for Kiwis
11:59 thd            Even much of NZ was absent from the last meeting.
11:59 davidnind      but not always ... midnight now
11:59 eythian        yeah, it's not a good time for kiwis
12:00 eythian        but next time may be better
12:00 Brooke         is 2 UTC bad for you all, too, then?
12:00 drojf1         13 June 2012 at 18:00 UTC+0
12:00 drojf1         it was not at 2
12:00 drojf1         the next one would be
12:01 drojf1         so, next alibi :P
12:01 Brooke         someone said 2, so that's what I was talking about XD
12:01 Brooke         anyway
12:01 thd            Brooke, we should return to the topic for now but I once tried to show that much of 2 UTC lands in the largely unpopulated ocean.
12:01 Brooke         yes I think this is sort of related to the jcamins patch
12:02 jcamins        The idea is to make sure that the people and institutions who contribute to Koha are acknowledged.
12:03 davidnind      for NZ 2 UTC = 2pm, depends whether you have to work or not;-)
12:03 eythian        well, I work on koha, so...;)
12:03 jcamins        Doesn't sound like there's much discussion on that. Anyone who doesn't want their name in the release notes can easily ask for it to be removed.
12:03 Brooke         ^
12:03 Brooke         moving on
12:03 Brooke         Put the monthly signoff stats from Chris C. on koha-community.org (more status)
12:03 thd            Acknowledgement++
12:03 Brooke         same thing would apply, methinks
12:04 Brooke         yes folks?
12:04 wahanui        folks are prone to overstay hackfest so I wouldn't worry too much about that given a friendly open wifi connection
12:05 * Brooke       once again considers the tyrannical tenet of no objection as a sign of assent...
12:05 * mtompset     apologizes, "Replying to work email at 8pm at night."
12:05 Brooke         this one is my fav cause I put it there, but I expect folks will hate it
12:05 Brooke         Offer prizes/bounties for signing off - either on individual bugs or for doing the most signoffs in a given time frame (Mechanical Turk?)
12:06 Brooke         I will offer Diablo or WoW gold if there's a dev that actually wants any of either :)
12:06 jcamins        Yes.
12:06 jcamins        +1
12:06 mtompset       I like the idea, but where will the prizes come from?
12:06 jcamins        It can't just be for signing off.
12:06 jcamins        It has to be for testing.
12:06 thd            Aside from virtual gold, what prizes or bounties might anyone be prepared to offer?
12:07 Brooke         so do we conflate those, or do we separate and honour both?
12:07 mtompset       Can you sign off without testing, jcamins?
12:07 eythian        you_can_
12:07 Brooke         one would _hope_ not
12:07 eythian        but you shouldn't
12:07 thd            Would offering prizes actually lead to the wrong motivation and poor quality control?
12:08 paul_p         thd that's a risk, you're right
12:08 mtompset       Actually....
12:08 mtompset       that gives me an idea.
12:08 * libsysguy    prefers bribes of testing other devs
12:08 mtompset       We were talking about testing and www::mechanize earlier, right?
12:08 mtompset       What if as proof of the testing, they include a mechanize script?
12:09 drojf1         how is that supposed to work? a price per bug? where do all the prizes come from? what if i am poor and cannot set a fancy prize for testing my patch?
12:09 paul_p         mtompset = you can't expect that from a librarian using sandbox...
12:09 Brooke         but you could get bonus points :)
12:10 mtompset       an apache log file of their testing page requests?
12:10 jcamins        drojf1: chocolate?
12:10 wahanui        reiveune ate them all
12:10 reiveune       lol
12:10 eythian        mtompset: now you're just adding difficulty so you can have proof
12:11 jcamins        Yeah, I don't think making it more difficult to test is the way to go.
12:11 mtompset       then how to deal with thd's valid concern of potentially poorer quality control?
12:11 jcamins        My point was, you can't say "here's a batch of fudge for whoever signs off on this patch," you have to say "here's a batch of fudge for whoever offers useful testing and feedback on this patch."
12:11 eythian        Even recognition of things like: most signoffs, most QA actions, most patches in the release might be a place to start
12:12 jcamins        Exactly.
12:12 Brooke         where it's wanted
12:13 Brooke         I just think we are up against a wall with testing, because I would wager that it's not fun for most people.
12:13 mtompset       like that bug which is haunting paul_p with the impending release of 3.10 looming in his mind. :)
12:13 Brooke         I don't think it's a Koha specific problem
12:13 * mtompset     nods in agreement.
12:14 Brooke         and I think if it bumps about in me head long enough, I might actually try and research (or more likely accidentally stumble on) what might work from elsewhere
12:14 thd            drojfi: Poor developers may still be developing features which many parties want including relatively wealthy libraries.
12:14 eythian        thd: or they might be developing something for a school in Africa...
12:15 Brooke         I like the idea of a foundation, even if the origin of the idea was disliked
12:16 eythian        I think it's overkill for a situation like this. I'd suggest start small, with a byline in release notes or just an email to the lists, and then build on that if there's reception to it.
12:16 thd            eythian: I suspect that if the feature is well considered, a feature useful for schools in Africa will be useful for schools everywhere.
12:17 thd            eythian++ start small
12:17 Brooke         moving on to
12:17 Brooke         Organize bug hunts: try to shake out all bugs in module x, and document tests on the wiki and look at the bugs for that module so we could clean up bugzilla and get some serious testing done + get some written test plans that we could try to automate later on
12:17 thd            However, lack of testing is a big and not a small problem.
12:18 mtompset       How about bug hunt through bugzilla?
12:18 mtompset       There are lots of things needing sign off, or just sitting there.
12:18 Brooke         hate to be a downer here, but how much testing can we actually do with the number of manhours we've got?
12:18 jcamins        Not a lot more than we are already doing.
12:19 thd            Brooke: We need to entice librarians to participate.
12:19 mtompset       And that's where sandboxes come in.
12:19 thd            ... or even library users.
12:20 mtompset       I may end up going to the main office in the near future to see if I can get the library person there to participate in sandbox testing. :)
12:20 thd            There is no shortage of library patrons, some of them must be motivated to improve the library.
12:20 Brooke         their local library, perhaps
12:20 Brooke         it's a tougher sell getting them to look at koha
12:21 Brooke         in especial with no central body to donate to
12:21 Brooke         almost done
12:21 Brooke         More ideas? Do other project have systems that work? (Achievement system for Developers OR better use of an existing tool like Ohloh or Chorewars for status and karma?)
12:22 Brooke         wikihow has a quick thumbs up thing for edits that other people find useful
12:22 eythian        launchpad has karma points
12:23 Brooke         I think chorewars was uber effective for a while, and might still be so :)
12:23 eythian        though, we'd probably have to patch them into bugzilla if we wanted them, that would be a notable amount of work
12:23 thd            I worry much about prizes giving wrong motivation but libraries could easily donate greater circulation periods or other privileges.
12:23 Brooke         fine forgiveness might be an attractive thing
12:24 drojf1         thd: do you really expect patrons to learn the library system of the library they are using?
12:24 Brooke         a tiny percent do and will
12:24 eythian        thd: I'm sure we've all built in "if (username eq "robin") { $fines = 0.00; } ;)
12:24 jcamins        eythian: heh.
12:25 cait-m__       heh
12:25 Brooke         moving on, and this one is key
12:25 Brooke         Is the wiki login working for new folks now?
12:26 thd            drojf1: Obviously, patrons should not be expected to evaluate all features properly, no one is best at all features.  However, patrons may be good candidates for testing many features.
12:27 thd            I never noticed it not working, but I had not been giving attention.
12:27 oleonard       Whoa, long meeting
12:28 Brooke         #help please ensure that the wiki login is working for new accounts
12:28 thd            oleonard: Cumulated issues from lack of participation in the previous meeting.
12:28 mtompset       quite long.
12:28 oleonard       previous meeting_s_
12:28 drojf1         long enough for me to bake a bread. it's done now :D
12:29 mtompset       and reply to a work email, and make note of that chorewars site.
12:29 mtompset       Brooke++
12:29 Brooke         moving on
12:29 Brooke         Move to Gerrit to streamline and optimize workflow?
12:30 Brooke         is the Chris it was referring to asleep now, or is it other Chris, and if it is, is he here?
12:30 jcamins        rangi.
12:31 Brooke         sleeping it is
12:31 mtompset       We did push a lot to this meeting. I think a couple things could get pushed to the next. ;)
12:31 Brooke         any other actions from last meeting?
12:31 Brooke         we're almost done
12:31 thd            gerrit++ mahara?
12:33 Brooke         Miscellaneous
12:33 Brooke         anyone?
12:33 mtompset       Nothing from me.
12:33 Brooke         right!
12:34 Brooke         #topic time and date of next meeting
12:34 Brooke         I bollocksed this up last time
12:34 Brooke         so I'd appreciate oleonard helping this time
12:34 Brooke         so I don't do it again
12:34 mtompset       Since we were noting that a lot of Kiwis were asleep, I suggest a Kiwi friendly time be chosen.
12:34 Brooke         I'm equally knackered, so I think it's equally likely
12:34 jcamins        We have a regular location.
12:35 jcamins        *rotation
12:35 jwagner        The rotation would have the next meeting at 2:00 UTC -- last two were 10:00 and 18:00
12:35 jcamins        I vote we follow that, so 2:00 UTC.
12:35 Brooke         which is friendly for kiwis, yes?
12:35 Brooke         cause its everyone's turn eventually
12:35 mtompset       I think that puts it around supper for them.
12:35 Brooke         that's before tea
12:36 Brooke         smack midafternoon
12:36 oleonard       Terrible for Europe though
12:36 mtompset       So, if that is the rotation, seems good to me.
12:36 oleonard       4AM?
12:36 Brooke         it's always shite for someone
12:36 mtompset       Well, what day will the next meeting be?
12:37 mtompset       Because paul_p may or may not have an update on 3.10
12:37 eythian        I think that's about 4pm NZ time or so
12:37 davidnind      rotation is good, 2 UTC = 2pm in NZ
12:37 eythian        2 then
12:37 eythian        I never remember which way it goes :)
12:37 jwagner        We got away from the first Wednesday of the month. Since paul_p is out all of August, maybe skip to early Sept?
12:38 thd            jwagner: The danger would then be an extra long meeting next time.
12:38 Brooke         not only that
12:38 thd            Koha should never have a holiday.
12:38 paul_p         thd = isn't this one extra long already ? :D
12:38 Brooke         but string freeze is coming up soonish, yes?
12:38 cait-m__       will paul be there at 4 am?
12:39 Brooke         doubt it
12:39 thd            paul_p: Yes, but partly for the reason which jwagner cited.
12:39 mtompset       perhaps keep it to august, because the next rotation may be europe friendlier?
12:39 oleonard       4AM and during your vacation eh paul_p?
12:39 cait-m__       so can be aug
12:40 paul_p         oleonard lol !
12:40 Brooke         1 August is still vaguely august
12:41 mtompset       That's too close.
12:41 oleonard       1 August is in two weeks
12:41 Brooke         yep
12:41 thd            Exactly, whether during the summer leaving period or not, 2 UTC would be a difficulty for paul.
12:41 paul_p         thd = well, in fact it's less difficult during holidays = I can go back to bed hereafter ;-)
12:41 oleonard       I suggest 15 August
12:41 thd            :)
12:42 paul_p         the main question being = will I have internet where I go in fact !
12:42 paul_p         (still not sure)
12:42 mtompset       If we do August 8, it would be easier to bump back to first wednesday of month.
12:42 thd            mtompset++
12:43 mtompset       Let's see 2 UTC is...
12:43 Brooke         8 August 2 Utc
12:43 Brooke         plus 1 please
12:43 wahanui        1
12:44 thd            +1
12:44 jwagner        +1
12:44 jcamins        +1
12:44 libsysguy      +1
12:44 davidnind      +1
12:44 eythian        wahanui: you don't even have a timezone
12:44 wahanui        eythian: sorry...
12:44 * paul_p       don't vote
12:45 * eythian      probably won't be able to make that time this time around, but that's OK.
12:45 mtompset       +1
12:45 cait-m__       0
12:45 * mtompset     is still trying to figure out the time difference to Manila.
12:45 Brooke         #agreed next meeting is 8 August 2 UTC
12:45 Brooke         #endmeeting
12:45 huginn         Meeting ended Wed Jul 18 12:44:18 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:45 huginn         Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community.org/2012/koha.2012-07-18-10.00.html
12:45 huginn         Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2012/koha.2012-07-18-10.00.txt
12:45 huginn         Log:            http://meetings.koha-community.org/2012/koha.2012-07-18-10.00.log.html
12:46 jwagner        mtompset see a tool like http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html
12:47 mtompset       Thanks, jwagner
12:47 mtompset       I was there, but the UI is confusing. I didn't see the UTC option unless I dropped done.
12:47 mtompset       dropped down.
12:48 * thd          has mostly stayed up and now must be turned off.
12:49 davidnind      http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20120808T02
12:50 oleonard       mtompset: You can also search "8 August 02:00 UTC" on WolframAlpha. At least for me it correctly guesses my time zone
12:51 mtompset       WolframAlpha?
12:51 wahanui        WolframAlpha is telling me 8 hours, is that right?
12:51 oleonard       http://www.wolframalpha.com
12:52 schuster       how can I see if a particular cpan module is installed?
12:52 schuster       debian system
12:52 jcamins        schuster: use packages.
12:53 jcamins        Barring that, perl -e "use Module; print 'Hi';"
12:53 schuster       I want to specifically see if Business::ISBN is installed.
12:53 jcamins        perl -e "use Business::ISBN; print 'Hi';"
12:54 oleonard       Or check the Perl modules tab on Koha's about page
12:54 mtompset       If you are using debian, DO NOT attempt to install from scratch. USE THE PACKAGES!
12:54 oleonard       ...which is a christmas tree of red squares for me
12:54 eythian        sounds like a lesson learnt there ;)
12:55 mtompset       I actually tried, and encountered a messy headache, so I gave up.
12:55 mtompset       Since we are using Ubuntu anyways, and I just wanted to see if my instructions would work for debian too.
12:55 eythian        schuster: I'd do: "sudo apt-get install libbusiness-isbn-perl" which will either install it, or won't if it's already there. Regardless, you'll know that it's installed when this is complete.
12:56 mtompset       oleonard++
12:56 mtompset       That wolframalpha site is cool.
12:58 schuster       Koha says it is there, but I wanted to verify.  I was trying to get the ISBN 10/13 working on my community box that I have on my test box and not sure why it isn't picking it up.
12:59 schuster       I have I think what are the 2 patches to make it work, but after reindexing it still doesn't do it.
13:01 mtompset       oh... did you restart the koha-zebra-daemon?
13:02 eythian        it's rare to need to that
13:02 eythian        only if you change zebra config
13:02 mtompset       everytime I do a full reindex, I need to restart it.
13:02 eythian        you shouldn't have to
13:02 mtompset       The file handles go stale or something for me.
13:02 eythian        weird
13:03 mtompset       yes, weird.
13:03 mtompset       I turn off apache, do a full reindex, restart the daemon, and start apache.
13:03 mtompset       It avoids the memory problems we were having, and it works.
13:04 eythian        I just reindex and it's immediately happy
13:04 mtompset       how much memory do you have?
13:04 eythian        depends. 2-4GB typically
13:04 eythian        @wunder marseille
13:04 huginn         eythian: The current temperature in Marseille, France is 33.0°C (2:30 PM CEST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 18%. Dew Point: 6.0°C. Pressure: 30.06 in 1018 hPa (Steady).
13:04 mtompset       we have 512MB. :)
13:04 eythian        maybe your apache maxchilds is too high
13:05 eythian        although 512 is on the low side
13:05 eythian        especially if you're running mysql in that too
13:05 mtompset       what's the conf file to check?
13:05 mtompset       We're getting it bumped up.
13:06 oleonard       @wunder 45701
13:06 huginn         oleonard: The current temperature in OHDOT 31-Athens County Garage, Athens, Ohio is 24.4°C (8:30 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 23.0°C. Pressure: 29.97 in 1015 hPa (Steady).  Heat advisory in effect from 1 PM this afternoon to 7 PM EDT this evening...
13:06 eythian        /etc/apache2/apache.conf or something like that
13:06 oleonard       Whoa, check out that humidity
13:06 mtompset       @wunder MNL
13:06 huginn         mtompset: The current temperature in Ninoy Aquino Inter-National Airport, Philippines is 26.0°C (8:00 PM PHT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Rain. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 25.0°C. Pressure: 29.79 in 1009 hPa (Rising).
13:07 mtompset       Welcome to the tropics. ;)
13:09 mtompset       How do I know which module, eythian?
13:09 eythian        it's whichever module you're running, probably mpm-itk
13:09 eythian        which I think is the same as mpm-prefork
13:09 mtompset       How do I know which module I am running?
13:09 eythian        see which apache module you have installed
13:09 eythian        you can only have one
13:10 mtompset       How do I see which apache module I have installed?
13:10 eythian        wholly cow
13:10 eythian        you can just do this:
13:10 eythian        apt-cache policy apache2-mpm*
13:10 eythian        I didn't know that, that's neat
13:10 * eythian      remember that trick
13:11 mtompset       I came up with aptitude search apache | grep ^i
13:11 eythian        that'd also work :)
13:11 jcamins_away   @wunder 11375
13:11 huginn         jcamins_away: The current temperature in APRSWXNET Jackson Heights NY US, Corona, New York is 30.0°C (8:42 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 59%. Dew Point: 21.0°C. Pressure: 29.82 in 1010 hPa (Rising).  Heat advisory in effect until 6 PM EDT this evening... 
13:11 eythian        jcamins_away: that seems pleasantly cool :)
13:12 mtompset       StartServers          5
13:12 mtompset       MinSpareServers       5
13:12 mtompset       MaxSpareServers      10
13:12 mtompset       MaxClients          150
13:12 mtompset       MaxRequestsPerChild   0
13:12 mtompset       Which is too high?
13:13 eythian        maxclients, you can't server 150 connections
13:13 eythian        not in 512
13:13 mtompset       True... that would probably eat our memory completely up.
13:13 dpavlin        Why is MaxRequestsPerChild 0 ?
13:13 eythian        I assume that means "no limit"
13:13 eythian        but I don't really know
13:14 mtompset       It's a default value.
13:14 oleonard       No package for Template::Plugin::HtmlToText ?
13:15 eythian        oleonard: it's in the koha repo
13:15 * mtompset     smirks.
13:15 eythian        but it's not depended on by default (my fault)
13:15 mtompset       I think I grabbed that from jcamins.
13:15 * oleonard     is running of of git, not Koha packages
13:15 mtompset       It's not a required module.
13:15 eythian        oh right
13:16 dpavlin        eythian: MaxRequestsPerChild 0 == no limit, but I prefer number there just to be sure that something isn't leeking memory :-)
13:16 eythian        it's worth adding the koha repo then anyway, you get some extra packages
13:16 eythian        dpavlin: yeah
13:16 eythian        dpavlin: though CGI perl shouldn't leak :)
13:16 mtompset       Apache does leak.
13:16 * oleonard     also doesn't find Data::Pagination or Data::Paginator
13:16 dpavlin        eythian: true. plack is influencing my judgement :-)
13:16 mtompset       I've watched ours leak about 1MB per koha page request.
13:16 eythian        goodness
13:17 mtompset       what number would you suggest, dpavlin?
13:19 mtompset       Of course, the leak goes away, so it is more of poor garbage collection than a leak.
13:22 nengard        looking for something easy to sign off on?? want to get on the scoreboard? :) bug 6716
13:22 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6716 enhancement, P3, ---, nengard, Needs Signoff , Database Documentation
13:28 mtompset       Noooooooo.... not more reading.
13:28 * mtompset     grins.
13:31 * mtompset     decides working towards shutdown is a good idea.
13:31 * mtompset     waves.
13:31 mtompset       Bye, #koha.
14:05 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @kohails: "#kohails  KohaCon13 Venue Chosen http://t.co/cqeQNDn6"
14:16 schuster       is there an LCCN number index?
14:17 schuster       found it control-number
14:25 jcamins_away   oleonard: Data::Pagination and Data::Paginator won't install on Squeeze.
14:27 jcamins_away   At least, that is what I found.
14:27 jcamins_away   The good news is, it doesn't matter.
14:27 oleonard       So... what does that mean?
14:27 * jcamins_away gets grouchy and frustrated every time he tries to install master? :P
14:29 paul_p         jcamins_away = and bug 8467 won't please you...
14:29 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8467 normal, P5 - low, ---, jcamins, NEW , Error during installation spool directory
14:29 jcamins_away   paul_p: no, that was a silly mistake on my part.
14:29 jcamins_away   However, there's already a signed off patch.
14:29 jcamins_away   & QAed, really.
14:29 jcamins_away   On bug 8268.
14:29 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=8268 critical, P2, ---, jcamins, Signed Off , Koha should offer way to backup entire db
14:29 jcamins_away   Waiting for you to push it.
14:30 jcamins_away   :)
14:31 jcamins_away   At least, that seems to be the same problem.
14:31 jcamins_away   (your error message was in French and mine was in English, so they might be different;)
14:33 jcamins_away   paul_p: I tested package installation and not normal installation.
14:36 * jcamins_away heads back home, having spent an hour traveling into the city only to learn that his client is out of town.
14:41 schuster       nengard about?
14:41 nengard        yes
14:41 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @paul_poulain: "So, we will go to Reno, Nevada, next year, for #kohails KohaCon13 http://t.co/nm6MmVoI (Nigeria or Argentina, see you for kohacon14 !)"
14:42 schuster       I was looking at the matching rules in the documentation and you reference LOC but for the tag you put 001 rather than 010?
14:42 drojf          hey, i was promised kohacon 2014 in croatia :P
14:42 nengard        hehe
14:42 nengard        schuster what link?
14:42 nengard        and I didn't write the matching rules part :) but I'll gladly edit it
14:43 schuster       I don't know if the LOC even works actually for a matching rule.  That's why I was looking at it I was trying to make it work.
14:43 nengard        heh
14:43 nengard        we do have a matching rule that we use at bywater for 001
14:43 pastebot       "schuster" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "link to matching rules for LOC" (1 line) at http://paste.koha-community.org/38
14:44 nengard        this one http://manual.koha-community.org/3.6/en/catadmin.html#recordmatchingrules
14:44 schuster       but that is mainly like OCLC numbers do you have any clients that match on LCCN?
14:44 schuster       yes that one.
14:45 nengard        not that i know of, but usually druthb or talljoy do the matching rules
14:45 nengard        during migrations so they'd know better
14:45 nengard        if you don't use OCLC though the 001 is the LOC number
14:47 schuster       HUH?  the 001 is whatever system number the record might come with.  The record I'm playing with is from Follett.
14:48 nengard        right sorry ? ignore me
14:48 nengard        brain not working this week
14:49 jwagner        The MARC standard for LCCN number is the 010 field, and that is indexed by default as LC-card-number,Identifier-standard
14:50 schuster       Very odd - when I loaded it though with 001 it did match based on the 010.
14:50 schuster       001 as the tag match point.
15:04 nengard        um
15:04 nengard        this is why i did not write the matchpoints part of the manual
15:04 nengard        cause they confuse the heck out of me
15:04 nengard        sorry ?.
15:05 wizzyrea       anyone have opinions on this? http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2720
15:05 huginn         04Bug 2720: enhancement, P3, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Fines that debar automatically, should undebar automatically when paid.
15:05 wizzyrea       on how he's suggesting this work?
15:11 cait-m__       hi all
15:17 wizzyrea       hi cait
15:20 reiveune       bye
15:21 cait-m__       hi wizzyrea
15:21 oleonard       Why do you ask wizzyrea? It makes logical sense, but I wonder about the performance issue of adding another query in each pla?ce we display patron information
15:22 wizzyrea       I ask because this is something that NEKLS wants to see happen
15:23 wizzyrea       but I don't have a read on "the best way to do it"
15:26 cait-m__       hmm?
15:26 oleonard       cait-m__: Bug 2720
15:26 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2720 enhancement, P3, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Fines that debar automatically, should undebar automatically when paid.
15:29 cait-m__       ah thx :)
15:42 jcamins        ARGH!
15:42 jcamins        Don't use 001 for matching.
15:42 jcamins        Really.
15:43 jcamins        I know I am alone in this, but I feel it is a bad idea.
15:43 jcamins        Oh, jwagner agrees with me. :)
15:43 jcamins        schuster: use 010$a and LC-card-number.
15:44 jwagner        jcamins, not always :-)  If you have a catalog with only one type of control number in 001 (like OCLC), you can use it.
15:44 jwagner        But I prefer combined matching rules, checking maybe 001, 035, 010, etc.
15:44 jcamins        jwagner: if you are trying to overlay records from the same source, yeah, sure, use 001.
15:44 jcamins        But don't confuse that situation with "001 has a standard number."
15:45 jwagner        Yes. It depends on how clean the catalog is. If you're merging data from multiple sources, you can't really rely on it
15:46 jcamins        schuster: ^^ exactly what I was trying to communicate.
15:51 jcamins        @wunder 11375
15:51 huginn         jcamins: The current temperature in APRSWXNET Jackson Heights NY US, Corona, New York is 35.0°C (11:12 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 48%. Dew Point: 22.0°C. Pressure: 29.82 in 1010 hPa (Steady).  Heat advisory in effect until 6 PM EDT this evening... 
15:51 oleonard       @wunder 45701
15:51 huginn         oleonard: The current temperature in OHDOT 31-Athens County Garage, Athens, Ohio is 30.6°C (11:20 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 66%. Dew Point: 23.0°C. Pressure: 29.97 in 1015 hPa (Steady).  Heat advisory in effect until 7 PM EDT this evening... 
15:51 jwagner        @wunder 20740
15:51 huginn         jwagner: The current temperature in Hollywood, College Park, Maryland is 35.8°C (11:49 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 52%. Dew Point: 24.0°C. Pressure: 29.89 in 1012 hPa (Steady).  Heat advisory in effect until 9 PM EDT this evening... 
15:51 jcamins        It feels a lot hotter than that.
15:56 nengard        @wunder 19030
15:56 huginn         nengard: The current temperature in Highland Park, Levittown, Pennsylvania is 37.7°C (11:55 AM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 46%. Dew Point: 24.0°C. Pressure: 29.83 in 1010 hPa (Steady).  Excessive heat warning in effect until 6 am EDT Thursday... 
15:57 nengard        weather man said it would feel like 105 degrees with the humidity here
15:57 oleonard       Whatever happened to Biblibre's enhancement to add editing to the circulation rules interface?
16:09 wizzyrea       it got stuck with lack of testing
16:10 wizzyrea       or it was lumped in with other changes that would have required basically live testing
16:11 mtompset       Greetings, #koha.
16:11 mtompset       I just wanted to cheer about getting my first class and subclass objects working. :)
16:12 jcamins        mtompset: class and subclass objects?
16:12 jcamins        What are you working on?
16:12 mtompset       playing with Perl OO.
16:12 mtompset       so that I can eventually clean up Auth. :)
16:12 jcamins        Whoah!
16:12 jcamins        mtompset++
16:13 mtompset       because I've been asked to get SAML 2.0 working for Koha.
16:13 mtompset       And frankly...
16:13 mtompset       Auth is ugly.
16:13 mtompset       It needs to be prettier.
16:13 jcamins        mtompset: you put that so diplomatically.
16:14 mtompset       imagine there is a silent capital F on ugly. :)
16:14 oleonard       I sure don't mind someone calling part of Koha ugly when it is prefaced by saying they're working on fixing it :)
16:15 mtompset       have you seen ANY Koha implementation that actually used .htaccess?
16:15 mtompset       because that's the only case I can figure that REMOTE_USER gets defined.
16:16 mtompset       for authentication, that is.
16:17 mtompset       That whole first IF part makes NO sense otherwise.
16:17 mtompset       in checkauth.
16:18 SJeffery       mtompset: Wouldn't .htaccess be used for IP athentication setups?
16:18 jcamins        Is REMOTE_USER set with SSL?
16:18 mtompset       hmm.... I didn't try https://192.168.69.37:8080/
16:18 mtompset       I only did the http version.
16:19 jcamins        Well, you have to configure SSL.
16:19 mtompset       That's what a development install is for. ;)
16:19 jcamins        But I have a suspicion that REMOTE_USER might be set by Apache if you configure it to use SSL certificates.
16:20 mtompset       I believe it is set when the browser is instructed to prompt for a username/password by an .htaccess file.
16:20 jcamins        SSL certificates also include username.
16:20 mtompset       Thanks for the extra test case... I'll try it later today... after I wake up. :)
16:21 jcamins        eythian would know.
16:22 mtompset       Hope I and paul haven't hijacked the EOL 3.4 thread you created, oleonard. :)
16:22 paul_p         jcamins eythian just left
16:22 jcamins        I know.
16:23 oleonard       mtompset: Did you vote? :P
16:23 mtompset       You said you wanted a discussion before voting. :P
16:24 mtompset       Paul pointed out that EOL is EOL regardless of what we call it, and from a Developer perspective that is very true.
16:24 mtompset       However, I think the terms "Orphaned" and "Killed" are better suited from the user perspective.
16:25 jcamins        mtompset: we've been telling people to upgrade from 3.4 for a while.
16:25 oleonard       jcamins: Then reply and vote for "killed" :)
16:26 mtompset       Yes, but you haven't been telling them, "If you don't upgrade now, I won't support you any more."
16:26 mtompset       Have you?
16:27 jcamins        Sort of.
16:27 jcamins        The vast majority of support questions are "why doesn't X work?" and the answer is often "X works in 3.6.x and 3.8.x, so you need to upgrade if you want it to work for you, too."
16:28 mtompset       That's not quite a "I won't support you" problem.
16:28 mtompset       That's a "The solution is upgrading"
16:28 jcamins        Hmmm...
16:28 jcamins        I'm not sure I see a distinction.
16:28 oleonard       Sounds like "I won't support you unless you upgrade" to me
16:29 jcamins        I will help people using 3.2 if their questions are about things that are the same between 3.2 and a recent version.
16:29 jcamins        But I don't remember how 3.2 worked, so if they aren't seeing the same things I am, all I can say is "sorry, you'd have more luck getting support if you used a supported version."
16:30 mtompset       That's more of an "orphan" than a kill.
16:30 mtompset       A "kill" would see the same bug in master as 3.2, and still say, "You should upgrade."
16:31 jcamins        Well, I'd say that, because they're never going to get the fix in 3.2.
16:31 jcamins        Even if I fix it in master immediately.
16:32 mtompset       But that's because you didn't fix it in 3.2
16:32 mtompset       It's still EOL.
16:32 mib_2pnt4n     good day everyone
16:32 jcamins        Hello.
16:32 mib_2pnt4n     i could use a quick pointer on a user problem
16:32 mtompset       change the user? ;)
16:32 wahanui        mtompset: that doesn't look right
16:32 jcamins        mtompset: exactly, so if they want me to fix it, they have to upgrade.
16:32 mib_2pnt4n     i am running 3.8
16:33 jcamins        Yay!
16:33 * jcamins      knows about 3.8. :)
16:33 jcamins        Some.
16:33 jcamins        ;)
16:33 mib_2pnt4n     i have cataloged a book in OCLC connexion
16:33 mtompset       Thank you for running a current version. :)
16:33 mib_2pnt4n     downloaded the marc record
16:33 mib_2pnt4n     and imported it into koha
16:33 mib_2pnt4n     all went great
16:33 mib_2pnt4n     but the book is not showing up in the catalog
16:34 mib_2pnt4n     it also says "No physical items for this record"
16:34 mtompset       indexing! :)
16:34 jcamins        You need to have your Zebra reindexer running.
16:34 jcamins        If you installed it from the tarball, you'll need to make sure rebuild_zebra is being run in your crontab.
16:34 jcamins        If you installed it using the packages, you probably just need to wait a few minutes.
16:34 mib_2pnt4n     actually we are working Bywater Solutions
16:34 mib_2pnt4n     so i didn't isntall it
16:35 jcamins        Oh, in that case you'll need to have ByWater fix up your crontab.
16:35 oleonard       Sounds like a question for their support staff mib_2pnt4n
16:35 mib_2pnt4n     ok
16:35 jcamins        Yup.
16:35 jcamins        They have a ticketing system.
16:35 oleonard       That's what you're paying them for ;)
16:35 mib_2pnt4n     yeah
16:35 mib_2pnt4n     i submitted a ticket
16:35 jcamins        [off] It used to be http://ticket.bywatersolutions.com/ but it might not be anymore.
16:35 bag            :)
16:35 mib_2pnt4n     i just wanted to see if there was a quick fix that I was missing
16:35 jcamins        Probably not, no.
16:36 mib_2pnt4n     ok cool
16:36 mib_2pnt4n     thank you for your help
16:36 bag            [off] not seeing that ticket ;)
16:44 jcamins        Gotta love paul_p's encouraging comment about my RM candidacy.
16:44 jcamins        :)
16:56 jcamins        oleonard: have I successfully made you more confused?
16:56 oleonard       I think I get it
16:57 jcamins        Hm.
16:57 jcamins        Well, next time I'll try harder to make it more confusing.
16:57 jcamins        :P
16:57 oleonard       I still wonder about the best way to encourage people to work on bugfixes instead of submitting more features
16:57 jcamins        Ah, that I don't know.
16:58 jcamins        But not pushing enhancements probably is not.
16:58 jcamins        Though that was my first thought as well.
16:58 mbalmer        ola
17:13 martian523     hi, i'm wondering if there's a way to connect to worldcat as one of the Z39.5 targets?
17:14 oleonard       martian523: I think WorldCat wants you to pay for those records
17:14 SJeffery       martian523: Yes, as long as you have the necessary login from OCLC.
17:14 SJeffery       ^ Yes, you have to pay for them.
17:15 martian523     but using the worldcat web is free
17:15 martian523     that's so funny
17:15 jcamins        martian523: worldcat.org is a faint shadow of WorldCat.
17:15 SJeffery       Just wait until you see the prices they charge.
17:16 * jcamins      has to talk to Skyriver at some point. They're supposed to be more affordable.
17:16 martian523     no luck for me then, since i don't think our library have the budget for this
17:17 jcamins        Though they don't pay for records you upload, I don't think.
17:18 oleonard       Funny how that works.
17:18 SJeffery       jcamins: Their cost was not low enough for us to justify switching (keeping in mind that their dataquality is a notch lower).
17:18 SJeffery       Martian523: You can still get almost all the records you will need from libraries with open Z39.50 servers.
17:21 martian523     well, yeah, but it's more convenient to just use one db and get all
17:21 martian523     do you know anything about eiNetwork?
17:33 oleonard       Hi CharlottevL
17:33 CharlottevL    hello.. It's awkward, but i need again your help... :(
17:33 oleonard       I mean ahoj
17:33 CharlottevL    ahoj :)
17:34 CharlottevL    nice to hear czech language...
17:34 * oleonard     doesn't know much, but wishes he knew more
17:34 * oleonard     build http://www.czechprimer.org
17:36 * tcohen       needs to know how to detect problems in jenkins interface
17:36 jcamins        tcohen: what do you mean?
17:36 CharlottevL    that's beautiful... :) i didn't know this page...
17:36 drojf          pozor vlak
17:36 CharlottevL    yes, that's very useful :D
17:36 drojf          pozor is one of my favourite words :)
17:37 tcohen         jcamins: if an email says master is unstable on jenkins
17:37 tcohen         where do I search for the problems?
17:37 CharlottevL    in czech republic, you can't live without this word ...
17:37 jcamins        tcohen: view the latest job, and then click "Test results."
17:38 CharlottevL    so my problem for today.. :( when I search something in opac, there is "availability: copies avalable for loan..:", but if I click on recort to place hold, there is error "no avalable items" :(  maybe something with zebra, but don't know, what...
17:38 tcohen         jcamins: found it, thanks
17:38 jcamins        CharlottevL: you need to add circulation rules.
17:38 jwagner        CharlottevL, do you have a circ rule allowing your login to borrow that item?
17:38 CharlottevL    yes, i have...
17:38 jwagner        If you're not allowed to borrow it, you can't place a hold either
17:39 jcamins        I will let someone else tell you exactly what circ rules are needed, because I have forgotten.
17:39 oleonard       You need at least one rule for all patrons/all item types
17:40 jwagner        identify the patron category and the item type in question. THen look for a circ rule covering that combination. If there isn't one, check the default rules
17:40 jwagner        What happens if you try to check out that item to that user?
17:41 CharlottevL    it works without problem.
17:41 CharlottevL    maybe an other hitn. If I search in catalog in staff client, there is in column "location" - no item (but if i click on the record, there is an item with bar code )
17:41 jwagner        Can you place a hold on that item for that user in staff mode?
17:45 CharlottevL    it works only if i click on the record, if i click in the search-result list, there is error  !One or more selected items cannot be placed on hold"
17:45 CharlottevL    "little czech primer", thats wonderfull site)
17:49 jwagner        That sounds like a circ rule problem, but do you have other items on the title, and are any of them non-circulating items (like reference)?
17:50 CharlottevL    no, everything is circ-items...
17:50 jcamins        Do you have a rule for DEFAULT-DEFAULT-DEFAULT?
17:51 jwagner        and does the applicable circ rule have a count in the Holds Allowed column?
17:52 CharlottevL    OPACItemHolds -allowed
17:52 CharlottevL    do you mean this?
17:53 jwagner        No, in your circ rules
17:54 jwagner        Home › Administration › Circulation and fine rules
17:55 CharlottevL    holds policy - everything allowed
17:56 jwagner        Above that on the page -- the table with headings for Patron category, Item type, etc.
17:57 tcohen         jcamins, tests that aren't ok don tell anything about the error
17:57 jwagner        Do you have a rule covering that specific combination of patron category and item type, or a default rule that would apply
17:57 tcohen         is that fixable?
17:57 jcamins        tcohen: they do somewhere, but I always have a lot of trouble figuring out where.
17:57 jcamins        tcohen: I generally just run it manually.
17:58 tcohen         right
17:58 CharlottevL    i let there default rules, nothing changed yet...
17:58 jwagner        Set up a rule covering that combination, and allowing holds, then try it again.
17:59 tcohen         who's maintaining the packages.ubuntu file?
17:59 tcohen         =~ swap
17:59 * cait         waves
18:00 jwagner        hi cait
18:00 cait           hi jcamins
18:00 cait           hi jwagner
18:00 cait           autocomplete
18:00 wahanui        autocomplete is probably biting me
18:00 tcohen         i have an issue in a amd64 PVM (Ubuntu 12.04) using dselect --set-selections
18:01 tcohen         as it pulls i386 dependencies
18:02 CharlottevL    jwagner - no change :( (i'm really newbie in koha... but if it would be only circ-rule problem, why I have "no items" in column "location" ?)
18:03 jwagner        on staff search results? possibly the index hasn't caught up?
18:03 CharlottevL    yes, on staff search results.. :(
18:04 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @ByWaterSolution: "Adding an Adult Patron in Koha 3.8 http://t.co/J4A4blZf #kohails"
18:05 CharlottevL    (i don't understand, what do you mean with "index" )
18:07 jwagner        are you running the zebra update cron job?
18:07 tweetbot`      [off] Twitter: @kohails: "#kohails  Adding an Adult Patron in Koha 3.8 http://t.co/vPRDzyPQ"
18:07 jwagner        somebody who knows, what's the link to the indexing setup instructions?
18:08 CharlottevL    zebra update cron job - running...
18:11 jcamins        Install.debian?
18:11 wahanui        Install.debian is at git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=blob;f=INSTALL.debian
18:11 jcamins        ^^
18:13 jcamins        Woohoo!
18:14 jcamins        I have changed the record export process efficiency from O(n) to O(4n)!
18:14 jcamins        Possibly going in the wrong direction, there.
18:15 * jcamins      waves to cait1.
18:16 cait1          hi jcamins :)
18:21 CharlottevL    :(
18:21 oleonard       still no luck with holds CharlottevL ?
18:34 jwagner        That still strikes me as some kind of an indexing problem and I'm not sure it's related to the holds problem. I have to leave in a few minutes, though.  Probably other people have some ideas...
18:38 sekjal         hi, #koha
18:39 tcohen         hi sekjal
18:39 jcamins        Hi sekjal.
18:39 sekjal         hi tcohen, jcamins
18:39 jcamins        tcohen++
18:41 tcohen         jcamins?
18:41 wahanui        jcamins is A-Grade developper on Koha willing to rewrite it from top to bottom. Good Luck jcamins
18:41 tcohen         hehe
18:42 jcamins        tcohen: your volunteering to fix up the Ubuntu installation docs.
18:43 tcohen         oh, i'll do it, just need to clarify on the ubuntu version support thing
18:43 jcamins        Yes, and that wins you karma. :)
18:46 tcohen         well, i'll start tomorrow, when I get some feedback
18:46 tcohen         now gotta leave!
18:46 tcohen         bye #koha
18:46 sekjal         bye, tcohen!
18:48 jcamins        sekjal: have you gotten UMass to switch to Koha yet? ;)
18:48 sekjal         jcamins:  not yet
18:49 sekjal         problem is, we're in a consortium, so we have 4 other colleges to convince
18:49 sekjal         but I have taken my first crash course in JQuery Mobile!
18:50 jcamins        Woohoo!
18:50 sekjal         creating a tablet-based headcount tool a la NCSU's Suma (but based off our CMS and Piwik)
18:54 jcamins        Have I commented recently on the silliness of using "Cookery" as a subject heading... ever?
18:55 jcamins        Has anyone ever used that term?
18:55 jcamins        Oh, drat.
18:55 jcamins        I forgot to remove a warn.
18:57 oleonard       jcamins: It's the canonical example of bad subject headings. So yes, everyone, often.
18:58 jcamins        lol
18:58 jcamins        I meant "anyone who wasn't a cataloger."
18:59 jcamins        A slightly perplexing heading: "St. Louis, Betty Wedman-".
19:14 schuster       So when looking at the OPAC and XSLTBloc how does the .tt know to display the Detail or the Results XSLT format?
19:14 jcamins        schuster: it's passed in.
19:14 schuster       From where?  the pl or?
19:15 * Oak          waves goodbye
19:22 * wizzyrea     recalls nengard going on about cookery a while back
19:22 jcamins        oleonard: if you wanted to make a configuration page that involved checking lots of buttons and putting things in order, what would you use to create that page?
19:25 jcamins        oleonard: this is good for putting things in order, but I'm not sure you'd approve of it for enabling lots of plugins: http://jqueryui.com/demos/draggable/#sortable
19:25 oleonard       I've got no problem with adding that
19:25 jcamins        I mean, the configuration page in question would be for enabling plugins.
19:26 jcamins        Suggestion plugins, for example: spelling, from authorities, from VIAF, from...
19:26 jcamins        etc.
19:27 jcamins        They need to be put in the proper order (where "proper" = the order the library wants), but they also have to be enabled or disabled.
19:32 wizzyrea       jcamins have you looked much at how wordpress does plugins?
19:33 jcamins        wizzyrea: I think plugins are just enabled or disabled with Wordpress, aren't they?
19:34 oleonard       jcamins: I could see you emulating the jqueryui example you posted, with checkboxes in each of the sortable divs, or a layout where you move each sortable item from the "disabled" box to the "enabled" box
19:34 jcamins        Also, to clarify, when I say "plugin" I don't mean user-accessible plugins a la bug 7804.
19:34 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7804 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle.m.hall, In Discussion , Add Koha Plugin System
19:34 jcamins        oleonard: ah, good call. I like the checkbox idea.
19:35 jcamins        I knew you would have a solution. :)
19:36 oleonard       Of course I'm best at nick-picking others' designs, so I'll wait until you release yours and then mess with it ;)
19:36 jcamins        lol
19:36 jcamins        Fair enough.
19:39 * oleonard     grumbles that he had a nice working JS-based solution for Bug 4354, but that was before hour loans and hard due dates
19:39 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4354 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, REOPENED , Cannot edit existing issuing rules
19:40 wizzyrea       what other state is there, jcamins?
19:40 wizzyrea       besides "on" or "off"
19:41 wizzyrea       oh
19:41 rangi          Morning
19:41 wizzyrea       never mind I was thinking of user accessible ones
19:41 wizzyrea       morning rangi
19:43 jcamins        Morning.
19:43 wahanui        i guess morning is a state of mind. or whenever the cat wants breakfast.
19:46 oleonard       Wow, I just noticed admin/smart-rules.pl is chock full of SQL. Is that kosher?
19:47 rangi          It's not halal
19:47 rangi          Yeah. Now. We should fix it
19:48 rangi          Oh man I missed Schuster
19:50 rangi          I already have my abstract written in my head
19:51 rangi          The shower strikes again
19:51 jcamins        What are you and schuster presenting on?
19:52 oleonard       Presenting?
19:52 jcamins        Abstract?
19:52 jcamins        Huh?
19:52 * jcamins      is confused, and wanted to make sure everyone else was, too.
19:52 jcamins        Wow.
19:53 jcamins        Module::Pluggable is *awesome*.
19:53 rangi          Kohacon13
19:53 wahanui        Kohacon13 is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Kohacon2013#Proposals_for_hosting
19:53 rangi          It is
19:53 jcamins        Ah.
19:53 jcamins        So, what are you and Schuster presenting on?
19:53 rangi          I want to use it for Koha::Auth
19:53 jcamins        Yes!
19:53 jcamins        Do it!
19:54 jcamins        It will make your life better.
19:54 rangi          Oh hmm I hadn't factored in Schuster
19:54 rangi          Hmm
19:54 jcamins        Huh?
19:54 * drojf        does not understand a word
19:54 * wizzyrea     either
19:54 * wizzyrea     gets the popcorn
19:54 wizzyrea       it's gonna be like watching Donnie Darko.
19:55 drojf          yeah popcorn, let's sit quietly in the corner and eat and let the grown ups talk
19:55 * wizzyrea     nods
19:55 rangi          Schuster and abstract totally unrelated
19:55 rangi          Apart from he organised kohacon09
19:55 rangi          Which jogged my brain
19:56 rangi          But maybe by next year his new library will be on koha
19:56 * wizzyrea     marvels at the way the human mind works
19:56 jcamins        Ohhh.
19:57 SJeffery       ^^ That is working?
19:57 jcamins        Hey, now.
19:57 jcamins        Popcorn is a vital part of any work day.
19:58 wizzyrea       especially when things get weird.
19:59 rangi          I will also answer questions only from ppl who beat me in a hand of blackjack
19:59 drojf          to brighten up the discussion a little, has anyone of you experience with small solar panels?
19:59 rangi          Not me
19:59 jcamins        drojf: a little, why?
19:59 jcamins        And, how small?
20:00 drojf          small enough to power a raspberry pi?
20:00 * wizzyrea     has those solar lights by her sidewalk, if that counts
20:00 wizzyrea       oh drojf, I saw a thing the other day on how to repurpose those cheap solar cells… let me see if I can find it
20:01 rangi          Coffee time
20:02 drojf          i'm not really sure what my question is about it. a genral "how does it work/ what do i need" i guess. i looked at ebay a little, you can either get just a panel and some cables, or you can get a whole charge controller thingy
20:02 rangi          Brian
20:02 wizzyrea       http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/strip-recycle-garden-solar-lamps-tech-projects/
20:02 rangi          Doh
20:02 rangi          Bbiab
20:02 rangi          Swype is balls
20:02 wizzyrea       keke
20:02 wizzyrea       ^^ that link was for you drojf
20:02 drojf          that looks cool, thanks wizzyrea
20:03 wizzyrea       you made me do a tmmto
20:03 wizzyrea       ;)
20:03 wizzyrea       (that makes me think of)
20:04 wizzyrea       if you can run a raspberry pi off of AAA batteries, I think you could use those lamps to charge them
20:04 wizzyrea       dk how stable the current is tho
20:04 wizzyrea       or use the panels in several lamps
20:05 jcamins        wizzyrea: not very. You need to filter it and you need some sort of battery for when the sun isn't up.
20:05 * jcamins      was picturing 1m^3 solar panels when you said "small"
20:05 wizzyrea       right, those lights basically work on the principle that the battery runs the light, and the solar cell charges the battery
20:05 wizzyrea       and they have a photodetector that turns off the light during the day
20:05 wizzyrea       so battery only charges when it's light out
20:06 wizzyrea       hehe no i meant 5cm^2
20:06 wizzyrea       ;)
20:06 jcamins        I mean, I thought drojf meant 1m^2
20:06 jcamins        Not cubed, squared.
20:07 drojf          heh i think that would be too much already
20:07 drojf          the battery problem lead me to the controller thing. like this maybe http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-3A-solar-controller-regulator-solar-panel-charge-output-12v-8-4v-5v-3-3v-/390351673009?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item5ae2c5d6b1
20:07 jcamins        So incredibly awesome. Module::Pluggable is a wonderful thing.
20:08 jcamins        Or you could build your own. Is fun!
20:08 * oleonard     suggests that after a few dates jcamins ask Module::Pluggable to go steady
20:08 drojf          lol
20:08 jcamins        lol
20:09 jcamins        I meant building your own controller is fun.
20:09 drojf          jcamins: "fun"? i have npo idea how to do that, but that thing in the picture looks like more than i can do myself
20:09 * wizzyrea     smells the perl-omones that Module::Pluggable is giving off, decides it's probably best to leave them alone
20:09 wizzyrea       where them = jcamins and Mod::Pluggable
20:10 wizzyrea       drojf which picture?
20:10 jcamins        oleonard: wizzyrea: laugh if you will, but you're going to feel differently when "did you mean?" can be extended without doing any real work at all.
20:10 wizzyrea       oh I am glad you are having a love affair with it
20:10 jcamins        drojf: http://www.solorb.com/elect/solarcirc/scc3/
20:10 drojf          wizzyrea: the ebay link i sent a minute ago or so
20:11 jcamins        Though we had a simpler one.
20:11 wizzyrea       ohhh
20:11 wizzyrea       my parents had a solar water heater when i was a kid
20:11 wizzyrea       we NEVER ran out of hot water. Ever.
20:11 wizzyrea       plus it was a great place to play under in the summer :P
20:12 wizzyrea       under the solar panels
20:12 drojf          wow, the internet knows everything. thanks jcamins
20:12 jcamins        drojf: http://www.trevorshp.com/creations/solarcharger.htm
20:12 oleonard       Isn't the never-running-out a factor of the size of the water tank rather than the solar aspect wizzyrea ?
20:13 wizzyrea       yes and no - we wouldn't have had the huge tanks except that we had a solar system
20:13 wizzyrea       but technically you are right
20:13 oleonard       I get it
20:15 drojf          jcamins: excellent. thanks
20:15 wizzyrea       but you *can* scavenge the panels from those little lights :)
20:15 jcamins        drojf: the problem will be maintaining the current when switching between solar and battery.
20:16 rangi          back
20:16 wizzyrea       they are like, 2 bucks here, cheaper now since they are on sale because of midsummer
20:16 jcamins        We didn't care so much because it was just the radio and starter.
20:22 drojf          ok that looks cool. so basically a panel, controller and battery and that's it. i won't get bored once the wifi access point is stable on the pi ;)
20:22 wizzyrea       drojf: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/makezineonline/~3/DWzQVAHdZyk/
20:22 wizzyrea       you saw this no doubt?
20:23 drojf          yes, but i have not tried it yet
20:23 * oleonard     wonders if it will stop raining buckets in the next 10 minutes or if he should make a run for it
20:23 jcamins        oleonard: I was wondering that too, actually.
20:24 * wizzyrea     is jealous
20:24 wizzyrea       you have wet stuff falling from the sky? what's that like
20:24 oleonard       Quite novel actually
20:26 oleonard       Hey me, remember when you saw that umbrella in the hall and told yourself you ought to toss that into your car?
20:26 oleonard       Aaaaand, it's gone.
20:27 rangi          heh
20:29 oleonard       See ya later everybody
20:36 wizzyrea       @wunder lawrence ks
20:36 huginn         wizzyrea: The current temperature in Channel 6 Downtown, Lawrence, Kansas is 40.4°C (3:34 PM CDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 27%. Dew Point: 18.0°C. Pressure: 29.83 in 1010 hPa (Falling).  Heat advisory in effect until 7 PM CDT Sunday... 
20:36 wizzyrea       oh look at that.
20:36 jcamins        @wunder 11375
20:36 huginn         jcamins: The current temperature in APRSWXNET Jackson Heights NY US, Corona, New York is 30.6°C (4:02 PM EDT on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 56%. Dew Point: 21.0°C. Pressure: 29.85 in 1011 hPa (Rising).  Heat advisory in effect until 6 PM EDT this evening... 
20:36 drojf          @wunder berlin, germany
20:36 wizzyrea       awful.
20:36 huginn         drojf: The current temperature in Prenzlauer Berg, Berlin, Germany is 18.9°C (10:12 PM CEST on July 18, 2012). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 83%. Dew Point: 16.0°C. Pressure: 29.74 in 1007 hPa (Falling).
20:36 jcamins        Is it really still that hot?
20:36 jcamins        No.
20:37 wizzyrea       heh, 40.4, now that is hot.
20:37 jcamins        It also didn't warn that there's a flood advisory.
20:41 rangi          @wunder nzwn
20:41 huginn         rangi: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 10.0°C (8:00 AM NZST on July 19, 2012). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 82%. Dew Point: 7.0°C. Pressure: 30.30 in 1026 hPa (Steady).
20:43 drojf          you should mix your weathers a little, then you'll get what we have here ;)
20:49 sekjal         night, #koha!
21:04 wizzyrea       @later tell jcamins http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/nyc-storm-2012.jpg holy moly, this was your storm from today
21:04 huginn         wizzyrea: The operation succeeded.
21:05 jcamins        o.O
21:05 wizzyrea       oh i thought you were gone >.>
21:07 jcamins        Nope.
21:07 jcamins        Writing tests.
21:09 rangi          jcamins++
21:13 jcamins        my @installed_filters = map { "Koha::Filters::MARC::$_" } grep { /\.pm$/ && -f "$filterdir/$_" } readdir($dh);
21:13 jcamins        I would like to do that in a non-horrifying ways.
21:13 jcamins        Any suggestions?
21:13 jcamins        Alas, I'm too early for papa, I think.
21:13 jcamins        Also, I need to remove the ".pm" from that string.
21:14 libsysguy      jcamins wth is that man
21:15 jcamins        I combined the grep and the map.
21:15 jcamins        So... how do I remove the .pm$?
21:16 rangi          yeah its only 7am in brisbane
21:16 rangi          he'll be here in an hour or 2
21:16 jcamins        It worked!
21:17 rangi          how cool is this
21:17 jcamins        :D
21:17 rangi          "I am keen to do unit
21:17 rangi          testing for Koha with Chris if that can be arranged and also work in any
21:17 rangi          other projects that are available."
21:17 jcamins        Who gets the karma?
21:17 rangi          yay for high school kids who want to write tests!
21:17 rangi          2 of the catalyst academy kids want to continue working
21:17 jcamins        (very cool... karma-deserving cool, in fact)
21:18 rangi          well karma for ibeardslee and anitsirk for running the academy too
21:18 wahanui        ibeardslee and anitsirk for running the academy too has neutral karma
21:18 rangi          heh
21:18 jcamins        ibeardslee++
21:19 jcamins        anitsirk++
21:20 jcamins        This is so cool!
21:20 jcamins        I did a search on "Holiday cookery" and got the results for "Holiday cooking"!
21:20 jcamins        :D
21:21 rangi          nice!
21:21 rangi          see instead?
21:21 rangi          or see also?
21:21 jcamins        See instead.
21:21 jcamins        Okay, I now have two arrays and want to confirm that they have the same contents.
21:22 jcamins        Excuse me... I want to confirm that all the items in one are in the other.
21:23 jcamins        Ah, got it.
21:23 ibeardslee     rangi: which ones?
21:23 wahanui        which ones are those?
21:25 ibeardslee     shush you
21:26 rangi          bart and jorgia
21:26 rangi          one uni, one high school now
21:27 jcamins        bart++
21:27 jcamins        jorgia++
21:29 ibeardslee     oh good stuff
21:30 rangi          hey cait
21:31 cait           hi rangi
21:32 jcamins        How do you initialize an empty array?
21:32 rangi          ()
21:33 rangi          my @array=() or [] if its a ref
21:33 rangi          at least thats what my not caffeinated enough brain is saying
21:35 jcamins        Yeah, that worked.
21:38 cait           that's what modern perl says too
21:38 cait           use an empty list
21:41 jcamins        Wait a minute! I don't need the DB at all to test this all the way!
21:41 jcamins        Wait...
21:41 jcamins        Do I?
21:42 jcamins        Can you force garbage collection in Perl?
21:42 cait           I have no idea what you are talking about
21:42 cait           but I have stable internet - finally
21:42 * cait         is happy now
21:47 rangi          yep
21:47 rangi          you make a DESTROY sub
21:47 rangi          http://perldoc.perl.org/perlobj.html#Destructors
21:48 jcamins        rangi: I have the DESTROY sub.
21:48 rangi          i want to write
21:48 jcamins        What I want to do is call it in a unit test.
21:48 jcamins        TEST ALL THE THINGS!!!!
21:48 rangi          Acme::Dalek
21:48 jcamins        :)
21:48 jcamins        lol
21:48 rangi          which changes destroy to EXTERMINATE_EXTERMINATE
21:49 rangi          can you go $self->DESTROY
21:49 rangi          ?
21:49 jcamins        Hm.
21:50 jcamins        Oh, I know.
21:50 jcamins        I can use eval {}
21:50 cait           oh no, no self destruction please!
21:50 jcamins        If it goes out of scope, it'll save any errors in $somethingorother.
21:52 jcamins        Woohoo!
21:52 jcamins        Successfully tested the entire file.
21:52 jcamins        rangi: how do I get a coverage thingy to confirm that I didn't miss anything?
21:53 rangi          prove_cover
21:54 rangi          http://search.cpan.org/~natanael/Devel-CoverReport-0.03/bin/prove_cover
21:54 rangi          prove_cover mytest
21:55 jcamins        A tricky one... not in Debian?
21:55 jcamins        Oh, libdevel-cover-perl
21:55 rangi          yep
21:56 jcamins        Or not.
21:57 cait           jcamins: what are you doing?
21:57 rangi          im 99% sure i didnt cpan it on
21:58 jcamins        cait: testing all the things!!!!
21:58 jcamins        Doesn't seem to be available anywhere.
22:01 cait           testing all the tings sounds brilliant
22:01 cait           oh
22:01 rangi          jcamins: you can just use cover
22:01 rangi          if you dont want to run the tests at the same time
22:01 rangi          just want coverage
22:01 rangi          https://metacpan.org/module/Devel::Cover
22:01 cait           did anyone know that when you hit enter while you are in the vendor number field in subscriptions you get a perl error?
22:02 cait           why do I only find such things when doing presentatoins?
22:02 jcamins        Ah, cool.
22:02 jcamins        Thanks.
22:05 pastebot       "jcamins" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "ok 1 - use Koha::RecordProcess" (38 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/39
22:05 jcamins        Need to figure out what it's not testing in Record::Processor.
22:12 jcamins        How do I get a count of items in a list that match a particular regex?
22:12 * jcamins      tries grep
22:14 libsysguy      rangi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpS7nCweYZI
22:14 libsysguy      its been awhile since I shared
22:14 libsysguy      every time I squash a bug I want my computer to play 'fatality'
22:14 rangi          heh
22:14 rangi          heya tcohen
22:15 tcohen         hi rangi
22:15 jcamins        Okay, that's enough testing for one module. :)
22:15 tcohen         how r u doing'
22:15 rangi          bad luck on not winning the bid .. now next year im gonna have to agonise over nigeria or argentina again! :)
22:15 tcohen         hahaha
22:16 jcamins        How do I remove a file from a commit?
22:16 tcohen         i'm planning a fund raise so I can fly to nevada!
22:16 rangi          git reset file git commit --amend
22:17 jcamins        Thanks.
22:17 tcohen         backing up the file first?
22:17 rangi          well it will still be there, you can stash it if you want
22:18 jcamins        There we go.
22:18 jcamins        Perfect.
22:19 tcohen         ALTER TABLE issues DROP FOREIGN KEY `issues_ibfk_2
22:19 tcohen         gives me
22:19 tcohen         DBD::mysql::db do failed: Error on rename of './koha_ues/issues' to './koha_ues/#sql2-325-2d' (errno: 152)
22:19 rangi          tcohen: i hope you can make it :) i will buy you dinner
22:20 rangi          ahh it makes a temp table while it does the alter table
22:20 tcohen         updatedatabase.pl line 4425
22:20 tcohen         is it a bug or is it a faulty configuration in mysql server?
22:25 martian523     hi, back again
22:26 martian523     is there a way to batch delete patrons on koha 3.8?
22:26 rangi          libsysguy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ&feature=plcp
22:26 rangi          martian523: not in 3.8 no
22:26 libsysguy      haha every time i see this i lol hard
22:27 rangi          yep :)
22:27 martian523     so i have to delete one by one?
22:27 rangi          yes, you can do it in the db, but that wont check if they have items on issue or hold etc
22:27 martian523     sigh!
22:28 libsysguy      rangi I thought there were fk restraints for that?
22:28 rangi          there is code for batch modifications and deletes of patrons in testing at the moment
22:28 rangi          libsysguy: no, there are cascade on deletes
22:28 libsysguy      ahhh
22:28 rangi          for some anyway
22:29 martian523     thanks for the help though
22:29 tcohen         you might first anonumize patrons
22:29 libsysguy      is there a bug no for that batch mod rangi?
22:29 rangi          martian523: you could look at bug 5742
22:29 huginn         04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5742 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Master , batch edit patrons
22:29 rangi          its in master now, so should be in 3.10.0
22:30 libsysguy      ok cool
22:30 cait           hm but think you can't batch delete
22:30 cait           only edit
22:30 tcohen         ALTER TABLE issues DROP FOREIGN KEY `issues_ibfk_2`;
22:30 tcohen         Query OK, 847 rows affected (0.26 sec)
22:30 tcohen         Records: 847  Duplicates: 0  Warnings: 0
22:30 tcohen         that's weird
22:31 rangi          tcohen: disk space?
22:31 tcohen         running that query from updatedatabase.pl raised the error
22:31 tcohen         37% usage
22:31 tcohen         4.6GB free
22:32 rangi          same user in both cases?
22:32 tcohen         root in both cases
22:32 rangi          no idea
22:32 tcohen         koha-upgrade-schema
22:32 tcohen         at least I'm the only one with this problem
22:33 rangi          hmm that will run as the user
22:33 tcohen         :-D
22:33 rangi          not root
22:33 tcohen         oh
22:33 rangi          unless the user in your koha-conf.xml is root
22:33 tcohen         no its not
22:33 rangi          the nice thing with it is, it su  to the user
22:33 rangi          and runs the ugprade as that user using that instances conf
22:34 rangi          (you can have multiple koha running easily with the packages)
22:34 tcohen         yes, i've been using them for testing purposes
22:35 tcohen         but when I received this old 3.1.X DB
22:35 tcohen         for upgrading... with all tables using MyISAM
22:35 tcohen         ...
22:35 jcamins        eythian just dealt with an upgrade like that.
22:35 tcohen         got this weird problems when s/MyISAM/InnoDB/ I guess
22:36 rangi          ahhhh
22:36 rangi          yeah you want to fix them, you dont want MyISAM
22:36 rangi          no foreign keys with that
22:36 tcohen         is it ok if I replace in the dump?
22:36 rangi          in theory yes
22:36 tcohen         Engine=MyISAM for... ok
22:36 rangi          in practice back up :)
22:37 rangi          i think it should work fine
22:39 * jcamins      goes to eat dinner.
23:43 jcamins_away   rangi: want to see graphically just how bad C4 is?
23:43 jcamins_away   http://paste.koha-community.org/40
23:43 Judit          good morning
23:43 jcamins_away   That from "use C4::Heading" and "use C4::AuthoritesMarc"
23:44 jcamins_away   Actually, that's all from AuthoritiesMarc.
23:45 jcamins_away   Wait, actually, I'm using Devel::Cover wrong.
23:45 jcamins_away   Hm. No I'm not.
23:47 rangi          jcamins_away: its all in jenkins and has been for years
23:48 rangi          http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_master/HTML_Report/?
23:48 rangi          the good news is it was 38% sub coverage and is now 53.1
23:48 rangi          the trend is in the right direction
23:49 jcamins_away   Oh, I know.
23:49 jcamins_away   That was from *one test*.
23:49 jcamins_away   On one file.
23:49 jcamins_away   Which used C4::AuthoritiesMarc.
23:49 mtj            hay, i just discovered something nice about perlcritic too....
23:49 rangi          yep, too many uses
23:49 jcamins_away   And nothing else.
23:49 rangi          hence, Koha::
23:50 rangi          which if it has no other goal, breaking that chain should be the only one
23:50 rangi          actually its the only thing I care about for Koha::
23:50 rangi          stop the dependency chains
23:50 rangi          the rest is all gravy
23:51 jcamins_away   I actually already moved all the required functionality to Koha::, but since it was one function call, I wondered what it'd look like if I shimmed in GetAuthority.
23:51 jcamins_away   (hint: it looks outrageous)
23:51 mtj            perlcritic (with a default config) gives some false violations for ./koha.git dir
23:52 mtj            i tweaked a .perlcritic file, and its down from 671, too 551 violations :)
23:53 mtj            $ cat .perlcriticrc
23:53 mtj            [TestingAndDebugging::RequireUseStrict]
23:53 mtj            equivalent_modules =  Modern::Perl
23:53 mtj            .
23:53 rangi          that should already be in there mtj
23:53 rangi          look at t/perlcriticrc
23:54 rangi          which is what the 00-testcritc.t test uses
23:54 mtj            bah, so it is :p
23:54 rangi          my $rcfile = File::Spec->catfile( 't', 'perlcriticrc' );
23:55 rangi          overtime we can make it more strict, when we get all the nasty category 5 errors gone :)
23:55 rangi          id like to run it stricter on Koha:: already
23:55 jcamins_away   fix_marc21_auth_type_location
23:55 rangi          no point introducing mess
23:56 rangi          also, maybe make a rule
23:56 rangi          no module in Koha
23:56 rangi          without a test
23:56 rangi          arent you glad im not RM anymore :)
23:56 jcamins_away   Horrible, horrible, horrible.
23:56 jcamins_away   I can't imagine what that was for.
23:57 jcamins_away   There's POD.
23:57 jcamins        And I read it.
23:57 jcamins        And it didn't help.
23:58 jcamins        Oh wise rangi, I seek your advice.
23:58 mtj            haay chris, have you spotted the perlcritic::progressive module?
23:58 rangi          not that i recall
23:59 rangi          about jcamins ?
23:59 mtj            we could run a pc::prog test on a stricter level...
23:59 rangi          mtj: i think for the Koha:: space thats a good idea
23:59 rangi          and the .pl files of course
23:59 jcamins        rangi: oh, sorry, got distracted.
23:59 rangi          C4/ is a lost cause
23:59 jcamins        Right.