Time  Nick                  Message
02:31 mtj                   heres a random Q....
02:32 mtj                   does anyone know where the equiv. of http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=22_to_30 is?
02:32 mtj                   i need to do a koha2 -> koha3 upgrade, and that link is the only doco i can find
02:33 mtj                   ... and it no longer exists :/
02:33 mtj                   .
02:34 mtj                   i wonder if any ptfs/liblime folk might be able to find an old backup of the wiki.koha.org database...
02:35 mtj                   ... i could find that lost important information, and paste it into the new kc.org wiki
02:36 mtj                   hmm, perhaps i could send that request to the Koha general mailing-list
02:36 druthb                o/
02:36 mtj                   heya druthb
02:36 mtj                   got a copy of the wiki.koha.org db somewhere ;)
02:37 druthb                nopers.
02:37 rangi                 im pretty sure i shifted that already
02:37 mtj                   im looking for this page ->  http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=22_to_30
02:37 rangi                 http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Upgrading_2.2
02:37 druthb                rangi++
02:38 mtj                   bah , was searching on '22_to_30'
02:38 mtj                   thanks chris :)
02:39 rangi                 mtj: what you should do
02:39 mtj                   facepalm, its the 1st results using 'upgrading'  :/
02:39 mtj                   ;p
02:39 rangi                 http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4518
02:39 huginn                04Bug 4518: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, nahuel.angelinetti, ASSIGNED , Enhance 2.2 to 3.0 scripts
02:40 rangi                 thats a patch that fixes/enhances the 2.2 to 3.0 scripts
02:41 mtj                   oooh, thanks!
02:42 mtj                   im upgrading a koha thats so old.. it doesnt have a 'version' syspref value :p
02:42 rangi                 thats pretty old
02:43 rangi                 theosophical society?
02:43 mtj                   which is a 1st for me :) , its a 2.0.x (i think)
02:43 mtj                   yeah :)
02:43 rangi                 ahh ull need to go to 2.2.x first then 3.0.0 then 3.2 then 3.4 etc
02:43 mtj                   so far, so good
02:43 rangi                 cool
02:43 druthb                Hi, Oak. :)
02:43 * Oak                 waves
02:43 Oak                   heya druthb :)
02:44 mtj                   rangi: yeah, the 2.0 to 2.2 bit... and quick ideas there?
02:44 rangi                 i forget how i did that
02:44 rangi                 been a long time
02:45 mtj                   ive been looking at a 2.2.9 repo, but cant find any 2.0->2.2 doco in it
02:45 mtj                   yeah :)
02:45 mtj                   all good - i can wing it, if i cant find any info
02:47 rangi                 yeah i cant remember
02:48 mtj                   ahh, here they are :)
02:49 mtj                   http://git.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=koha.git;a=tree;f=misc/release+notes;h=85bfb75ff1a82466be137de366395e2726543983;hb=675f9d5b0152922364c1963438b2aad977a17cf2
02:49 rangi                 ahh thats easy
02:49 rangi                 ./koha.upgrade
02:53 mtj                   http://git.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=koha.git;a=blob;f=misc/koha.upgrade;h=0449c10494ba25cd7f5aad15220f890f16a0a86e;hb=675f9d5b0152922364c1963438b2aad977a17cf2
02:53 mtj                   w00t
02:53 mtj                   heya ronald
02:53 mtj                   mtj <- mason :)
04:13 druthb                o/
04:13 Oak                   druthb :)
04:14 druthb                hi again, Oak. :)
04:14 rangi                 http://www.eclecticmethod.net/2011/07/07/the-dark-side/
04:15 druthb                Interesting lil dubstep...
05:04 francharb             hello all
06:19 cait                  hi #koha
06:43 reiveune              hello
06:50 julian                hello #koha
08:03 jenkins_koha          Starting build 320 for job Koha_master (previous build: FIXED)
08:09 huginn                New commit(s) kohagit: Fix for Bug 6573 - Library name entry field enforces unnecessary maxlength <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=7b1ca473cc0307dfde997051e04fad664ba0503f> / Revised fix for Bug 6133 - Authorised values administration, warn for modifs <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f095be74ab2169eb4401bfc4f51abec08cc5a9f> / Bug 5197: add < > token to notices <http://git.koha-commu
08:46 jenkins_koha          Project Koha_master build #320: SUCCESS in 43 mn: http://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_master/320/
08:46 jenkins_koha          * ian.walls: Bug 5197: add <<today>> token to notices
08:46 jenkins_koha          * oleonard: Revised fix for Bug 6133 - Authorised values administration, warn for modifs
08:46 huginn                04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5197 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, ian.walls, ASSIGNED , today's date on notices
08:46 jenkins_koha          * oleonard: Fix for Bug 6573 - Library name entry field enforces unnecessary maxlength
08:46 huginn                04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6133 trivial, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Authorised values administration, warn for modifs
08:46 huginn                04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6573 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Library name entry field enforces unnecessary maxlength
10:24 slef                  hi all
10:25 kf                    hi slef
10:26 slef                  anyone any idea about kohacon11 meeting?
10:26 kf                    sorry, no
10:28 rangi                 hi slef and kf
10:32 kf                    hi rangi :)
10:32 slef                  hi rangi
10:32 kf                    can you bring wahanui back?
10:32 rangi                 nope
10:32 kf                    oh :(
10:33 slef                  gone for good or just waiting on eythian?
10:33 rangi                 well i could, but id rather just wait for eythian he was working on some plugins
10:33 kf                    so he is not dead, only sleeping
10:33 kf                    that's good :)
10:45 druthb                o/
10:46 rangi                 hi druthb
10:46 druthb                hi, rangi! :)
11:35 JesseM                Good Morning
12:15 kf                    morning JesseM
12:16 JesseM                Hi kf
12:17 kf                    hi talljoy
12:17 talljoy               good morning
12:29 magnuse               kia ora #koha
12:31 druthb                kia ora, magnuse. :)
12:32 magnuse               hiya druthb
12:48 oleonard              Must bug the person at this library who blocked IRC
12:48 magnuse               ouch
13:01 kf                    hi magnuse :)
13:01 magnuse               guten tag kf
13:54 library_systems_guy   once a patch has been signed off on how long does it usually take to get pushed to maser?
13:58 kf                    until qa manager signs off
13:58 library_systems_guy   ahh
13:58 slef                  library_systems_guy: I'm not sure it's an easy thing to average :-/
13:58 kf                    then rangi pushes them very quick
13:59 library_systems_guy   gotcha
13:59 library_systems_guy   i was just curious
13:59 slef                  http://bugs.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/progress.pl might give some idea of trends
13:59 sekjal                small patches, things that touch the templates only, tend to be quicker to push through QA because they're easier to test; you either see it works or it doesn't
13:59 slef                  looks like a couple of days
13:59 sekjal                anything mucking around in C4/Circulation, Reserves or Search... much more in depth
14:00 library_systems_guy   right right...so my patch that messes with xslt should tale some time
14:00 kf                    it's your first patch, right? :)
14:00 kf                    history is waiting :)
14:01 kf                    meaning - we can add another name to the list of that gets through
14:01 library_systems_guy   third actually...but the first two were like id patches lol
14:01 kf                    oh
14:01 library_systems_guy   i think im already in there :D
14:01 kf                    :)
14:01 library_systems_guy   i felt that if i was going to make the list it might as well be for something cool
14:38 wizzyrea              good morning
14:38 kf                    good morning liz
14:41 Agent_Dani            Hi wizzyrea
14:41 jcamins_away          Hello, wizzyrea, kf, and Agent_Dani.
14:42 kf                    hi jcamins :)
14:44 druthb                hi, jcamins. :)
14:45 jcamins               Hi, druthb!
14:45 jcamins               druthb++ # because it's after breakfast, and she does something amazing before breakfast every day :)
14:46 kf                    :)
14:48 * druthb              blushes
14:48 talljoy               I don't see any blushing.
14:48 * talljoy             ducks
14:48 druthb                no fair, with talljoy sitting next to me.
14:52 jcamins               Hi, talljoy!
14:53 talljoy               hello!
14:55 * kf                  whispers to talljoy: can you poke her from me?
15:01 * Agent_Dani          fences photos of druthb blushing. *whistles innocently*
15:02 druthb                :P
15:11 miguel                Hola, hay alguién para la reunión en el IRC de es-koha-community ?
15:22 rhcl                  wizzy is dizzy
15:22 druthb                lol
15:23 rhcl                  Miguel: I don't think there is an English language meeting scheduled, I don't know if there is something scheduled on the Spanish language side or not.
15:25 miguel                thanks, I think we scheduled a meeting for today, but ...
15:29 SirDekar              hi people, I've got a question. UNIMARC or MARC21 which is better or what's the difference?
15:29 reiveune              bye
15:29 kf                    where are you located?
15:29 SirDekar              me?
15:29 kf                    yes :)
15:29 SirDekar              Panama, Center of America
15:30 kf                    hm
15:31 slef                  SirDekar: look at what the libraries you want to share with use.
15:32 kf                    slef: good answer :)
15:32 kf                    both are bibliographic data formats
15:32 slef                  kf: until we figure out translating between them, at least.
15:33 kf                    there is a pending patch from marcelr
15:33 kf                    but if you want to import data too...
15:33 kf                    hm, export
15:33 kf                    it would help importing them via z39.50 - but no complete translation for all fields probably
15:33 kf                    but export works only with one format
15:37 kf                    ok, and now I stop confusing people and go book my hotel for the presentation next week
15:37 jcamins               Argh! I just spent 45 minutes on a complicated item, only to have the computer crash when I tried to save the record.
15:37 kf                    ouch
15:37 * jcamins             remembers all over again why he hates the Koha cataloging interface.
15:40 library_systems_guy   so i was just looking at rangi's place that he works...any correlation to http://www.catalystframework.org
15:41 * jcamins             had never forgotten why he hates embedding authids in bib records.
15:44 wizzyrea              not related, afaik
15:45 library_systems_guy   aww...thats disappointing
15:46 library_systems_guy   although not surprising really...i guess if they were related Koha would probably be based on that framework
15:46 * wizzyrea            questions that claim
16:00 huginn                New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6577] Columns misaligned on serials search results <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6577>
17:17 hdl                   jcamins: can you elaborate ?
17:18 jcamins               hdl: elaborate on what?
17:18 hdl                   jcamins had never forgotten why he hates embedding authids in bib records.
17:18 jcamins               Ah.
17:18 hdl                   because of linking required ?
17:18 jcamins               Right.
17:19 hdl                   mmmm only with ids can the relation be accurate imho.
17:19 cait                  that's what I keep saying, but he doesn't listen to me :P
17:19 jcamins               You have to either create all your authority records in advance, or you have to allow the system to create them automatically for you.
17:20 hdl                   But this is a UNIMARC and endless discussion.
17:20 jcamins               If there were a script to repair the damage after the fact, that would be one thing.
17:20 jcamins               But there isn't.
17:20 cait                  and jcamins - didn't we agree that we need to improve the tools managing th elinks instead of killing the authids? ;)
17:20 jcamins               cait: we agreed it would be a good idea.
17:20 hdl                   link_authorities.... doesnot work ?
17:20 cait                  hehe
17:20 jcamins               hdl: no, of course not.
17:20 hdl                   for you ?
17:21 hdl                   I thought that dom indexing was the heaven for marc21.
17:21 cait                  it works for us - but we don#t use the linking scripts
17:21 cait                  it's not generally broken i would say
17:21 jcamins               hdl: the matching algorithm is very inaccurate.
17:22 cait                  have to run and buy food :)
17:22 jcamins               In particular, it doesn't match things with multiple subdivisions.
17:28 cait                  @wunder Konstanz
17:28 huginn                cait: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 26.4�C (7:25 PM CEST on July 12, 2011). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 74%. Dew Point: 21.0�C. Pressure: 29.73 in 1006.7 hPa (Steady).
17:28 wizzyrea              Did something change on the circ screen that would make it take a lot longer on patrons with lots of checkouts?
17:28 jcamins               @wunder 11375
17:28 huginn                jcamins: The current temperature in Howard Beach, Queens, New York is 33.7�C (1:28 PM EDT on July 12, 2011). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 47%. Dew Point: 21.0�C. Pressure: 29.65 in 1003.9 hPa (Steady).  Heat advisory in effect until 9 PM EDT this evening... 
17:29 jcamins               wizzyrea: did you turn on the sorter things?
17:29 wizzyrea              is that a syspref
17:29 wizzyrea              ?
17:29 wizzyrea              and it's new?
17:29 wizzyrea              as of 3.4?
17:29 cait                  I think it's new
17:30 cait                  but it was there before, the sorter thing, you can turn it off now
17:30 cait                  perhaps the relatives thing?
17:31 wizzyrea              hmm tablesort for circ is off
17:31 wizzyrea              could be the relatives thing... sec
17:32 wizzyrea              heh...
17:33 wizzyrea              41 checkouts, no relatives, just took 40 seconds
17:33 wizzyrea              to load the checkout screen
17:33 wizzyrea              hmm
17:38 wizzyrea              well soemthing has changed, because the same thing didn't happen in 3.2
17:38 cait                  :(
17:38 wizzyrea              or at least, it only kicked in at a much higher level of borrows/user
17:38 cait                  your production system?
17:38 wizzyrea              ya
17:38 cait                  ouch :(
17:39 wizzyrea              ah sok. I've filed a ticket and the smarties will look into it. ;)
17:39 cait                  perhaps something on server side?
17:39 wizzyrea              could be
17:44 thd                   Has anyone had difficulty uploading files to the wiki?
17:44 wizzyrea              I thought that was fixed
17:45 thd                   wizzyrea, yes when I looked last week I could find no configuration obstacle to uploading common file types.
17:45 thd                   wizzyrea: Only specific file types are allowed as a sensible security measure.
17:45 wizzyrea              sure
17:46 wizzyrea              but you're not able to?
17:46 cait                  I think it was Brooke who had problems - I never tried it really
17:46 thd                   Brooke mentioned that there had been a problem.
17:47 thd                   There had definitely been a problem with the category assignments which I have mostly fixed.
17:47 cait                  thd++
17:47 cait                  perhaps have a list of allowed file types somewhere?
17:47 thd                   gmcharlt had upgraded the wiki software but some extensions needed upgrading in consequence.
17:48 thd                   cait++
17:48 thd                   The list is probably not long enough.
17:48 cait                  yes, perhaps something like .mrc or something missing
17:49 cait                  not sure what Brooke wanted to upload
17:51 thd                   I just added mrc.
17:51 thd                   We now have pdf, csv, and mrc as additional file types.
17:52 cait                  what are the others?
17:52 cait                  I think graphics?
17:52 thd                   I do not know what the base list of already allowed file types is.
17:52 cait                  ah ok
17:52 thd                   Yes graphics file types are certainly in the base list.
17:53 thd                   The directory in which they are stored is images.
17:53 cait                  I wonder if we should add odt
17:53 thd                   All uploads are stored in the images directory as far as I can tell.
17:54 thd                   I just added odt.
17:54 cait                  cool :)
17:54 cait                  might be good for checklists or other things you might want to print and edit
17:54 cait                  edit in print... in that sequence
18:18 jcamins               Does anyone know of any IRC channels where people who collate old books hang out?
18:18 cait                  hm
18:22 * wizzyrea            mutters
18:23 wizzyrea              can someone release that poor message I just sent to the koha list please and thanks?
18:24 jcamins               hdl just left.
18:25 wizzyrea              never mind I just re-sent it
18:25 wizzyrea              my sig pissed it off.
18:26 * wizzyrea            prepares for the poostorm that message will kick off.
18:26 * jcamins             eagerly awaits the message.
18:27 jcamins               This is a really weird book. Leaves C1 and C6 were both bound in backwards.
18:31 * jcamins             doesn't see what the problem with that message is.
18:55 cait                  wizzyrea: looks good for me too
18:55 wizzyrea              there are just a lot of politics surrounding the vendor list.
18:56 wizzyrea              (it has a tangential relationship to "money," thus people get really excited about it)
18:56 wizzyrea              (and I'm sure someone will call me out for saying it's tangential, because in capitalism the relationship to money is direct!)
18:57 cait                  hm
18:58 cait                  I don't think money was my reason to be excited about it :)
19:07 * slef                fires up the poo cannon
19:07 * wizzyrea            gets on her poo resistant outfit
19:08 cait                  oh cool
19:08 cait                  they are playing a song in the radio rangi showed me months ago
19:08 * druthb              gets out a scrub brush.
19:08 * cait                hums along
19:09 slef                  wizzyrea: mainly, where has "legitimate" gone from http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/how-to-get-listed/ ?
19:12 wizzyrea              slef: that's the wording that has been there since the last discussion on vendor listing took place
19:12 jcamins               Ooooooooh. A Grolier binding. :D :D :D
19:12 wizzyrea              that happened.... 5 may 2010
19:12 wizzyrea              Legitimate has never been on that page.
19:13 slef                  wizzyrea: yeah rereading the IRC archives, it looks like gmcharlt dropped the word between everyone voting for his suggestion and him writing it on pastebin.
19:13 wizzyrea              I'd take that up at the next meeting then.
19:13 slef                  wizzyrea: so would you list any old fraudsters on that site then? (Personally - and I don't know if I have access - I would not act.)
19:14 wizzyrea              the requirements that I follow are the ones agreed upon by the community
19:14 wizzyrea              the ones stated on the web page
19:14 slef                  no, they're not
19:15 slef                  they're the ones you were given, though
19:15 wizzyrea              then blaming me is putting the blame in the wrong place.
19:16 wizzyrea              I can understand why this situation is upsetting for you, and I"m willing to hold off on listing until the requirements have been discussed. As it stands though, there aren't any real barriers to listing.
19:17 wizzyrea              not to mention the fact that by practicing selection, you then do bear some responsibility should a vendor not live up to the standards of their customers.
19:17 wizzyrea              "you said this vendor was good"
19:17 wizzyrea              by disclaiming all of them -- you don't have to worry about that.
19:19 wizzyrea              so in my mind
19:19 slef                  I don't believe that's accurate or ethical and I don't think it's legal in the UK. We have concepts like "attractive nuisance" and I'm surprised if the US doesn't, given how the US DHS seizes domains.
19:20 wizzyrea              we either take that responsibility seriously and offer a certification (which would likely trim the list) or we list based on basic requirements
19:20 slef                  Certainly in the UK, webmasters have been punished for failing to remove links to illegal enterprises from websites they ran voluntarily in a timely fashion.
19:20 wizzyrea              you have a keyword there
19:20 wizzyrea              illegal
19:20 wizzyrea              "distateful to me" isn't "illegal"
19:21 slef                  read the last bullet on http://lists.koha-community.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2011-July/035866.html
19:21 slef                  it was part of my objection
19:22 wizzyrea              (failure to respond to that particular objection is why they're not listed already, fwiw)
19:22 wizzyrea              (you'll note that they're not listed)
19:22 slef                  (ok, but it feels like we're into a grey area here)
19:22 wizzyrea              this particular request is extremely grey
19:22 wizzyrea              because there is a lot of interpersonal stuff around it
19:23 slef                  yeah, it plays into two other disputes which I'm not handling
19:24 wizzyrea              I personally don't like all of the personal jabs, it could have been a lot more professional.
19:24 slef                  but I'm not going to let him game me out of being the co-op's koha-community liaison... I'm already not our membership manager nor our data controller because of those disputes.
19:25 slef                  Yeah, I decided not to respond to most of those because I don't see what good it would do.
19:25 wizzyrea              I respect you greatly for your abstinence from poo-flinging. ;)
19:25 wizzyrea              (I mean that)
19:27 slef                  all the EDI-related dispute is more debatable... I guess we should have held payment until it was in master.  Oh well, live and learn.
19:28 wizzyrea              the point re: client's who didn't hire the company, would need proof
19:28 wizzyrea              clients... i have an apostrophe happy finger.
19:28 slef                  how can anyone prove something didn't happen?
19:28 wizzyrea              he will just need to prove that it did.
19:30 slef                  hmmm... not sure how that will play
19:30 slef                  you do know he's reading this BTW?
19:30 wizzyrea              I do
19:30 * wizzyrea            waves
19:41 rangi                 morning
19:41 oleonard              Hi rangi, long time no see
19:42 rangi                 took an irc mental health break :)
19:43 slef                  I've met NateC haven't it?
19:45 oleonard              Were you and he at KohaCon in NZ slef?
19:46 sekjal                slef:  yes, you met him at KohaCon '11
19:47 rangi                 he probably did card tricks for ya :)
19:48 slef                  he looks nothing like the pic on the bywater website
19:48 slef                  oleonard: yes
19:49 oleonard              Can someone please host KohaCon 2012 closer to me please? Thanks.
19:49 jcamins               oleonard++
19:49 wizzyrea              closer like -- norway?
19:49 oleonard              I'll take it.
19:50 slef                  oleonard: UK is already on http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Proposals_for_KohaCon12 but still lots to do
19:50 slef                  I think we're most likely to go for London or Edinburgh - which would people prefer?
19:51 * jcamins             loves Edinburgh, but London is close enough to Oxford to detour for a research trip.
19:51 jcamins               So...
19:51 jcamins               edinburgh++
19:51 jcamins               lond++
19:51 jcamins               Let me try that again.
19:51 jcamins               london++
19:51 * library_systems_guy wants to gooo
19:51 oleonard              I'd prefer less expensive accomodations over more to do and see, FWIW
19:52 rangi                 either works for me
19:52 * druthb              will tuck library_systems_guy into her duffel bag for the trip.
19:52 slef                  oleonard: well, both those cities are big enough to have a range of accommodation prices and tons to do, so that doesn't narrow it down much ;-)
19:52 library_systems_guy   yayyy
19:52 library_systems_guy   thanks druthb :D
19:53 sekjal                london is closer to Legoland Winsor
19:53 sekjal                ~Windsor
19:54 slef                  let me know nearer the time if that's seriously a consideration and I'll keep an eye out for discount vouchers for you because it's eyewateringly expensive
19:55 sekjal                I've been to two of the others already, so I'm not sure if that's enough, or if I'm going for the complete set... will ponder on it
19:58 rangi                 slef: I could asl francois about how the mahara partners thing works
19:58 rangi                 ask even
19:58 wizzyrea              we know his asl :P
19:58 wizzyrea              well you do probably
19:58 rangi                 I think they do some kinda certification
19:58 rangi                 kristina would know too
20:01 slef                  rangi: Please do, but isn't it a misnamed self-perpetuating group?
20:01 rangi                 sure but aren't all certified ones
20:02 rangi                 who certifies the certifiers
20:02 rangi                 my stop bbiab
20:02 rangi                 mahara not moodle btw
20:02 wizzyrea              ^^ what he said
20:02 slef                  the certifiers certify each other, peer-to-peer style
20:02 slef                  yeah, moodle partners is pay-to-play, we've looked at that before
20:05 sekjal                that sounds pretty neat
20:06 sekjal                more applications than just certification
20:06 slef                  OK, let me draft a page for it
20:06 sekjal                could be tied into karma, or other forms of "merit"
20:07 sekjal                do it for individuals, not organizations.  an organization would just be a sum of it's members in whatever aspects we'd want to measure
20:07 * wizzyrea            has reservations about this, but will wait to see what you come up with
20:09 cait                  hm I missed most of the discussion - but organization being the sum of their members... sounds not so good when you are small
20:12 * cait                reads back now
20:14 cait                  ah, missed a rangi appearance
20:15 slef                  ah
20:16 cait                  ah?
20:16 slef                  I don't like certifying people. Someone can leave their organisation and lose access to their tools.
20:17 slef                  I was thinking of fairly simple requirements like "we have tested the user interface of one of their Koha installations successfully".
20:19 jcamins               What's the point of that? It only costs $5 and twenty minutes to meet a requirement like that (get a super-cheap vps, and install Koha).
20:20 slef                  ok, here's the other things I was thinking of:
20:20 slef                  # we regard them as a contributor to Koha in the last year;
20:20 slef                  # they have been recorded as attending a Koha meeting in the last year;
20:20 slef                  # we have seen recent basic business information (an annual report or similar); and/or
20:20 slef                  # the co-op's members agree we would do business with them.
20:21 slef                  jcamins: the point is, many people would fail even that test.
20:21 rangi                 back
20:21 slef                  It's up to each certifier to decide their requirements, though.
20:21 rangi                 still here cait :)
20:22 cait                  :)
20:24 rangi                 ohh i see what you mean slef
20:24 jcamins               Sounds like a lot of administrative work, for what seems to me limited benefit.
20:24 rangi                 theres no standard, but catalyst might be certified by software.coop and bywater
20:24 rangi                 bywater certified by equinox etc
20:24 rangi                 is that what you were thinking?
20:26 slef                  yeah, like we'd give bywater 4/5 almost immediately on request, as we keep hammering their public demo
20:26 slef                  (don't remember if catalyst host a sample site sorry :) )
20:27 rangi                 demo.mykoha.co.nz
20:27 slef                  then when the web of trust gets strong enough, I'd probably propose it's incorporated into the koha-community listing
20:27 cait                  hm
20:27 rangi                 i kinda like that
20:29 slef                  jcamins: the benefit is informing potential customers. I feel it would be better to spend 30mins reviewing another support provider in exchange for them reviewing us, than to spend 30mins posting marketingspeak that any old fraudster could write.
20:31 jcamins               Hm.
20:36 rangi                 speaking of which, i again!!!! forgot to sign people gpg keys at ALA
20:37 slef                  hey, did you sign mine at kohacon10?
20:37 jcamins               rangi: if it makes you feel any better, my GPG key expired.
20:37 rangi                 nope i forgot that too
20:37 slef                  ratbag
20:37 * wizzyrea            giggles
20:38 wizzyrea              "ratbag"
20:38 wizzyrea              that never gets old.
20:38 * cait                giggles with wizzyrea
20:38 slef                  jcamins: heh, that's such a common FU that the co-op has an alarm on our keyring to remind us to extend them.
20:38 jcamins               slef: I never use my GPG key, which is why it expired.
20:38 slef                  wizzyrea: that BBC sports presenter keeps using it. I really notice it now.
20:38 wizzyrea              hee!
20:38 rangi                 jcamins: i sign the tags with them, and my RM mail
20:38 slef                  jcamins: we have to use ours to get access to customer data.
20:38 jcamins               Actually, I should probably get a new key which is linked to my current e-mail address.
20:39 rangi                 and yeah, the sysadmins wont give me passwords, in any form other than encrypted
20:39 rangi                 which is good
20:39 slef                  jcamins: err, update your expiry and add your new email address as a uid?
20:39 jcamins               You can use GPG for authenticating into systems?
20:39 jcamins               slef: oh, I thought the GPG key was linked irretrievably to the e-mail you used to set it up initially.
20:39 slef                  jcamins: no, but you can feed your ssh keys to gpg-agent.
20:40 * jcamins             puts it on my to-do list.
20:40 slef                  or at least NAFAIK
20:41 rangi                 when my user package is installed on a machine by a sysadmin, it pwgens a password, gpg encrypts that, and emails it to me (installs my ssh key too of course) so i can then login and do stuffs
20:41 rangi                 so i use my a lot
20:42 slef                  yeah, we log in with ssh keys but sudo is usually a pwgen password
20:43 slef                  jcamins: you seemed unconvinced about the mutual certs idea. Is that right?
20:44 jcamins               slef: that is correct.
20:44 jcamins               slef: not the peer-review/web-of-trust bit, just the idea of certifying Koha vendors in general.
20:44 slef                  jcamins: do you think there's a flaw in the implementation, or that the underlying problem doesn't need solving?
20:44 jcamins               The latter.
20:45 jcamins               There's also the problem of what do you do in a small ecosystem, if it turns out that one of the certifying authorities can't be trusted.
20:45 slef                  Do you think any market for lemons exists?
20:46 slef                  "The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism" is a 1970 paper by the economist George Akerlof. It discusses information asymmetry, which occurs when the seller knows more about a product than the buyer. Akerlof, Michael Spence, and Joseph Stiglitz jointly received the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 2001 for their research related to... http://a.vu/w:The_Market_for_Lemons
20:47 slef                  If one of the CAs sucks, other providers will decertify or low-certify them.
20:48 slef                  It may be possible one day to figure out a basis set of CAs along the lines of http://advogato.org/trust-metric.html seeds, but let's walk before we run.
20:49 jcamins               There are currently 29 vendors listed. If you require three +1s, that means that each vendor is approving certifying an average of 10 other vendors.
20:49 slef                  bbl
20:49 jcamins               That's a lot of work.
20:50 slef                  dang
20:50 slef                  three +1s?
20:51 jcamins               slef: I'm just making up a number there, but 3 is a nice number.
20:51 slef                  yeah, but what's a +1?
20:51 jcamins               Votes in favor of certification.
20:51 slef                  oh no, it doesn't work like that
20:52 slef                  A certificate is either issued or it's not.  No voting (unless the CA wants to vote on it).
20:53 slef                  Anyway, I was expecting to do 1 or 2 a month, which means certifying 10 might only take 5 months.
20:54 slef                  It's good to look at other people's stuff anyway.
20:54 slef                  Also, some of those 29 are probably stale or wouldn't request certs anyway.
20:55 slef                  I don't see there being a koha-community.org certificate. koha-community's big asset is being neutral.
21:11 rangi                 i like the idea of it not being a community cert, but purely a peer one, i kinda operates this way informally anyway
21:11 rangi                 there are support companies in the us id recommend, and ones i wouldnt, i just havent put that down on paper
21:42 cait                  hmpf
21:42 rangi                 ?
21:43 cait                  my little perl program doesn't work
21:43 jcamins               Time for me to go home, since my server just went down.
21:43 jcamins               Bye.
21:43 cait                  and it's too late to figure out why
21:43 cait                  bye jared
21:43 rangi                 ah
21:44 cait                  probably a stupid thinking error somewhere
21:44 cait                  good night #koha :)
21:45 rangi                 night
23:49 Brooke                kia ora
23:49 bg                    hi Brooke
23:49 Brooke                0/
23:50 rangi                 hi Brooke
23:50 Brooke                :)