Time Nick Message 23:20 sekjal great, chris, thanks! 23:19 chris and added 2 more rules 23:18 chris sekjal: responded to your email 23:18 hudsonbot Chris Cormack: Merge remote branch 'kc/master' into new/bug_5105 23:18 hudsonbot Project Koha_3.2.x build #27: SUCCESS in 18 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/27/ 23:12 chris_n bbl 23:12 chris_n that fits nicely into the picture 23:12 chris according to their source 23:11 chris gpl2 23:11 cfouts though we're still using predominantly mysql 5.0 23:11 chris_n very nice imho 23:11 * chris_n did and maria cranked right up without a hitch 23:11 cfouts that's what I'm hoping. 23:11 chris_n cfouts: if percona is as drop-in as maria, you can leave your db's in place 23:10 chris http://drizzle.org/Home.html 23:10 chris_n nice writeup 23:10 chris drizzle isnt a drop in replacement of course 23:10 chris and maria 23:10 chris as does drizzle 23:10 chris percona seems cool 23:09 chris yeah 23:08 chris_n it sure sounds like there is some very low hanging fruit here to be had in multi-db support 23:07 cfouts in that vein, they recently issued an elaboration: http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2010/11/05/perconas-commitments-to-mysql-users/ 23:07 chris_n maria uses XtraDB as well 23:07 * chris is now curious and its lunchtime so ill eyeball the source 23:06 chris sounds like they have learnt well from the lessons of mysql :) 23:06 chris so im guessing still gpl :) 23:05 chris All Percona software is available for download and unlimited usage at no charge, released for free under open source licenses. Percona does not adhere to any "dual licensing" or "community vs. enterprise" software pricing strategies. There is only one version of all Percona software, and that version is always free. 23:05 chris i shouldnt have to download the tarball to find out :) 23:05 chris i hate sites that dont put up license info in a easy place 23:03 cfouts it has enhanced instrumentation 23:03 cfouts not sure 23:03 chris but their website doesnt say 23:03 chris im assuing percona is gpl 23:02 chris_n one of my dev install is running over maria with about 30k records in it 23:02 cfouts I'm potentially going to be doing testing against PerconaDB 23:02 chris drizzle is pretty neat too 23:01 chris_n that one is very much within grasp 23:01 * chris_n would love to see some other's do testing over MariaDB 23:00 chris with the idea it wont stop anything else, and will at least move us quite a bit closer to not being chained to one db engine 23:00 hudsonbot Starting build 27 for job Koha_3.2.x (previous build: SUCCESS) 22:59 chris im proposing only getting hte schema part going for 3.4 22:59 chris *nod* 22:59 cfouts interesting that using DBIC only for schema management would not conflict with using Rose::DB or another ORM for runtime. 22:59 robin oh, I didn't think of looking there. Ta. 22:58 sekjal according to the MARC framework 22:58 sekjal robin: no, not repeatable 22:58 robin hmm. It maps to a DB field, so perhaps not. 22:57 chris pass 22:57 robin is 952$x considered repeatable? 22:57 chris yup 22:57 cfouts wily-nily database updates need to be reigned in somehow, though 22:56 chris not that i ever expect a koha site to get a fraction of the traffic .. itd be nice if libraries got that popular :-) 22:55 chris but things like stuff.co.nz etc 22:55 chris (not koha sites) 22:55 chris the speed issue is why we dont use ORM on any of our big sites here 22:55 chris yeah 22:55 cfouts the speed issue is difficult, though. I don't think we can deprecate running Koha as a CGI. 22:55 thd he had stated that he might be back at a time which would be half an hour ago. 22:54 cfouts the two I've looked at enable the user to do direct SQL without much issue, so that doesn't seem to be much of a problem 22:54 chris :) 22:54 chris or at least 11pm 22:53 chris its midnight, so i doubt it 22:53 thd slef: are you back? 22:52 chris sometimes the ORM does daft things, so its nice to be able to choose where to use it 22:51 chris it doesnt lock you into using dbic for your db access everywhere like say something like tangram does 22:50 cfouts oh, I see. 22:50 chris and not have to use anything else 22:50 chris you can just create and deploy schemas 22:49 cfouts can you explain that? 22:49 chris and i do like that about it a lot 22:49 chris but we can still use the schema part without using dbic anywhere else 22:49 chris like i say, im not convinced on a total ORM 22:48 cfouts dbic, not the versioning 22:48 chris_n +1 # reducing/easing db versioning 22:48 cfouts I'm concerned about its speed 22:48 cfouts I've heard about the dbic versioning capacity but haven't looked into it 22:48 cfouts reducing the number of version increments would help 22:47 cfouts that's a hard problem. 22:47 chris or at least make it less likely 22:47 chris i *think* we can use it to get rid of the number clashing we face doing database versioning now 22:46 chris is what i really like 22:46 chris http://search.cpan.org/~frew/DBIx-Class-0.08124/lib/DBIx/Class/Schema/Versioned.pm 22:46 chris course it barfed when i tried loading in the sysprefs (because we have some mysqlisms in there) but those are easily fixed 22:45 chris and it just worked 22:45 chris and deployed it on postgres 22:45 chris using it, i made a schema from a running koha on mysql 22:45 chris its database agnostic 22:45 chris and want to move to that, rather than a .sql file and updatedatabase.pl 22:45 cfouts what about it? 22:44 chris a lot 22:44 chris I do like DBIx::Class::Schema though 22:44 cfouts the latest in that camp is adding further motivation 22:44 chris but at this point, it would do more harm than good 22:44 chris an ORM is one way of doing that 22:44 cfouts I see 22:44 chris im for removing our dependence on mysql 22:44 cfouts oh, interesting. I had misunderstood you previously, then,. 22:43 chris but i might be persuaded on that, but certainly not before we are running under a persistent environment 22:42 chris no i never was for a full ORM implementation 22:41 cfouts chris: you mentioned during the meeting you'd had a change of preference for using an ORM, is that correct? 22:40 hudsonbot Colin Campbell: Bug 5105 - Remove use of depreciated Switch module 22:40 hudsonbot Project Koha_Master build #138: SUCCESS in 20 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/138/ 22:36 hudsonbot * Frédéric Demians: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement 22:36 hudsonbot * Katrin Fischer: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name 22:36 hudsonbot Project Koha_3.2.x build #26: SUCCESS in 21 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/26/ 22:23 chris night cait 22:23 robin bye! 22:23 cait good night all! 22:23 cait time to sleep 22:22 munin New commit(s) kohagit: Merge remote branch 'kc/master' into new/bug_5105 <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=dcb86689f73089ceaa789a92c34e78200d05af61> / Bug 5105 - Remove use of depreciated Switch module <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=a9010530a331d9ee047e0d42a9f8206a206027a3> 22:20 chris hudson is getting a workout 22:20 chris heh 22:20 hudsonbot Starting build 138 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS) 22:19 hudsonbot Frédéric Demians: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement 22:19 hudsonbot Project Koha_Master build #137: SUCCESS in 19 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/137/ 22:15 hudsonbot Starting build 26 for job Koha_3.2.x (previous build: SUCCESS) 22:12 chris that would be just fine 22:12 cait uh, will have to ask someone at work 22:11 chris yeah 22:10 wizzyrea yea, that seems right something like parts copyright 2010 Northeast Kansas Library System (Liz Rea) 22:10 robin wizzyrea: yeah, in that case it depends on what the law sets as the default for where you are. My conjecture would be that in the US it's copyright your employer by default, in the EU possibly not. 22:10 robin so I put that as the copyright, and usually note somewhere that it was me that wrote it, more to help enquiries from people. 22:09 wizzyrea but, it's a courtesy nonetheless 22:09 cait I think nobody has thought about putting something in my contract 22:09 wizzyrea not sure I have such a statement in the conditions of my employment 22:09 robin I think it says in my contract that by default things are copyright catalyst. 22:08 robin yeah, that's a reasonable approach. 22:08 wizzyrea which is fine by me 22:08 wizzyrea I suspect since it was done on their time, NEKLS should take the copyright, 22:08 robin and that also varies by jurisdiction. 22:08 wizzyrea depends on many things I understand. ;) 22:08 robin wizzyrea: work for hire, for example/ 22:08 chris thats between you and your organisation i suspect 22:08 wizzyrea k 22:08 robin wizzyrea: it depends on many things 22:07 chris wizzyrea: i dunno know your rules 22:07 chris id put parts copyright you 22:07 wizzyrea myself or my institution? 22:07 robin there's no hard boundry, but I think as soon as you change behaviour, that's non-trivial 22:07 chris it is changing functionality 22:07 cait with very small changes 22:07 cait I think the second is really too small, perhaps the first? but touching a lot of files 22:07 robin cait: yeah, or a typo fix or something I'd consider trivial 22:07 cait take my last 2 patches as example - should I have changed something for those? 22:06 cait hm 22:06 * chris_n runs perl 10 22:06 chris cait: spacing 22:06 chris_n I'm just wondering about the problematic nature of it 22:06 chris yes wizzyrea 22:06 wizzyrea I should be on that 22:06 wizzyrea so something like that entire rewrite I did of the install.debian 22:06 cait so, what is a trivial change? 22:06 chris_n oh, I agree 22:06 chris chris_n: it is most certainly deprecated and we shouldnt be using it 22:06 chris i agree with robin 22:05 * chris_n wonders why it has not been a problem before now 22:05 robin cait: my thinking is that anything beyond a trivial change, you should add yourself to the copyright. 22:05 chris im going to find and apply 22:05 chris_n rather grep does 22:05 chris i think there is a patch in the wild from colin 22:05 * chris_n counts 5 occurances of perl's switch still in the code 22:04 cait hm, that's something we wanted to talk about, when do we change copyright statements and how do we do it - I think my changes were too small until now, but still curious about it 22:02 munin New commit(s) kohagit: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=5e1b8167c24e0322d94bfc919556d927d875cf97> 22:01 chris :) 22:01 robin that looks like a no :) 22:00 chris +# Copyright 2009 BibLibre 22:00 chris but im pretty sure you didnt write it 22:00 hudsonbot Starting build 137 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS) 21:59 chris well hopefully colin will for me 21:59 chris im going to reject for bad copyright 21:59 chris Ability to link to items belong to host records from a analytical record 21:59 chris hdl: still around? the first mail from savitra 21:57 wizzyrea lol robin 21:56 * robin suspects poor grounding. 21:53 chris heh 21:48 * cait hums happily 21:33 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5003 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, NEW, Can not search for organisation by name 21:33 hudsonbot Katrin Fischer: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name 21:33 hudsonbot Project Koha_Master build #136: SUCCESS in 18 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/136/ 21:30 Elwell possibly - thinking about hacking my own bot to add some twitter pulling (there's an abandoned supybot plugin and a standalone twitter bot) but using RSS may save me a pile of pain as I already use RSS to pull in planet updates 21:29 gmcharlt trying to do something? 21:29 Elwell ah OK figures. 21:26 gmcharlt Elwell: the RSS plugin 21:24 Elwell Q - which plugin does munin use to announce commits? 21:22 wizzyrea jcamins_a: "assiduously" i like it. 21:21 hdl thd: bad. 21:21 thd good evening #koha 21:21 cait yes, get better 21:21 thd hdl: I have been feeling better and then whatever it is comes back ;( 21:20 hdl feel better. 21:20 hdl have a nice day 21:20 thd good evening wizzyrea 21:20 thd good evening hdl and paul_p 21:20 wizzyrea thd: hope you feel better soon 21:19 * thd needs to visit the doctor again :( 21:19 cait ah, you saved me :) 21:18 cait yeah - but know I have to eat them myself 21:18 hudsonbot wizzyrea: thanks a lot! om nom nom. I really like that carrots 21:18 wizzyrea !hudson botsnack carrots 21:18 wizzyrea cait: there you go being all healthy 21:18 hudsonbot Use !hudsonhelp to get help! 21:18 hudsonbot cait did you mean me? Unknown command 'bot' 21:18 cait !hudsonbot botsnack carrots 21:18 thd hdl: We also have Simple Server but that requires much work. 21:18 cait oh 21:18 hudsonbot Use !hudsonhelp to get help! 21:18 hudsonbot cait did you mean me? Unknown command 'bog' 21:18 cait !hudsonbog botsnack carrots 21:16 hudsonbot wizzyrea: you're so kind to me! I just love cheetos! 21:16 wizzyrea !hudson botsnack cheetos 21:16 thd hdl: My greatest hope is that Index Data would work together with Knowledge Integration to develop a solution but that would probably cost too much. 21:16 hudsonbot chris_n: yummy! I really like that cookie 21:16 chris_n !hudson botsnack cookie 21:15 hdl looking forward to your hints. 21:15 hudsonbot Starting build 136 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS) 21:14 thd hdl: I have not yet identified support for @or @not or any non Bib-1 non-use attributes such as phrase searching which is a type 2 attribute. 21:12 thd hdl: I should not discuss prematurely which is why I have not written more completely on the list but I will state what I have not yet found. 21:12 munin New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=863830f3f91110bdbd930755139f844870234ccc> 21:11 thd I have not had a direct answer about some questions yet from Knowledge Integration. 21:11 hdl namely ? 21:11 thd Index Data recommend JZKit for Java, however, JZKit is missing many features for good Z39.50/SRU. 21:10 thd hdl: It is newer. 21:10 hdl (better than zebra hopefully) 21:09 hdl And I think that Indexdata will maintain that. 21:09 thd hdl: It is all one circular path in the small world of free software library code. 21:09 hdl But it would look quite a sensible dependency... 21:09 hdl I have not dived into the code actually. 21:08 thd hdl: Did you note the dependency on CQL-Java from Index Data? 21:08 hdl I saw that. 21:07 hdl solr.biblibre.com iirc. But maybe it was actually on a local machine. 21:07 thd hdl: Where? 21:06 thd hdl: Initially when using the Knowledge Integration web form to ask about documentation I had no response. 21:06 hdl We did set one instance running 21:06 thd hdl: I am still waiting for further response from Knowledge Integration. 21:05 thd hdl: There is also some work to be done on the code perhaps. 21:04 thd hdl: Creating documentation will cost money. 21:04 thd hdl: I do not know how to set it up because there is no documentation. 21:04 thd hdl: I have learnt more from studying the JZKit source code than from answers from Knowledge Integration. 21:03 hdl thd: have you been playing with JZKit ? 21:03 * hdl don't know 21:03 thd hdl: Is that not standard for Z39.50 servers in some manner? 21:02 hdl not on tcp 21:02 wizzyrea or not 21:02 wizzyrea I think he means available 21:02 hdl it is in socket 21:02 paul_p thd, forgetting to look at my saviour. But that's not related to Koha ;-) 21:01 thd hdl: Not open? 21:01 gmcharlt agreed - non-ICU zebra, although more tedious to config, is not subject to the same sorts of problems that you are running into 21:01 thd paul_p: What do you fear the most? 21:01 hdl And z3950 searching is not open on standard configuraiton 21:00 chris i still think the dual path is the way to go, and we deprecate zebra when solr provides everything it does and more 21:00 paul_p hdl: stop & head to your bed. we will organize another meeting on IRC for that. and I think we will agree. That's not what I fear the most ! 21:00 hdl indexing is really.... kind of broken too. 21:00 thd paul_p, hdl : I have been researching JZKit thoroughly. 20:59 hdl facets are broken. 20:59 chris still bad 20:59 paul_p ok, definetly = I go to bed & chris, go to work ;-) (& hdl go to bed too I suggest. thd, you do what you want ;-) ) 20:59 hdl new features + bug fixes + regression ? 20:59 chris new feature + regressions = still bad 20:58 thd paul_p: Empowering ordinary users is great. 20:58 chris regressions = bad 20:58 chris new featurs = good 20:58 paul_p we fully agree with z3950 issue 20:58 hdl you told you would go to work... 20:58 chris but i feel like things are very simple but people are commited to making them hard 20:58 thd paul_p: I have not said how great that is on the mailing list yet. 20:58 * wizzyrea pats chris 20:58 paul_p ;-) 20:58 chris im quite yelly today 20:58 chris BUT DONT REGRESS US! 20:58 hdl zebra configuration 20:58 chris paul_p: no one is saying solr is bad 20:57 thd hdl: What is hardcoded? 20:57 paul_p what we are doing with solr is having all indexes defined by the librarians, in Koha itself ! 20:57 hdl wizzyrea: yes. 20:57 thd wizzyrea: Zebra is absent from their public commitments. 20:57 hdl and hardcoded 20:57 wizzyrea 9/17, so pretty recent 20:57 paul_p + there are other issues that we can/should consider as bugs : like having config files so complex & hard to change. 20:57 wizzyrea hmm 20:57 thd hdl: I am not advocating holding on to very buggy software at all costs. 20:57 wizzyrea http://www.indexdata.com/blog/2010/09/solr-support-zoom-pazpar2-and-masterkey 20:56 thd hdl: That maybe which is why costs should be distributed. 20:56 hdl for each bug 20:55 thd hdl: Zebra has been neglected certainly. 20:55 hdl But the fee and contract seemed quite high. 20:55 thd hdl: Index Data is not yet committed to upgrading Zebra for Solr/Lucene. 20:55 hdl We considered paying seriously. 20:54 hdl thd: not only. 20:54 magnus good night, #koha 20:54 paul_p chris++ and i've to do some sleep ;-) 20:54 thd hdl: I think that part of the problem is having one company pay for a shared benefit. 20:54 hdl zebra3 will be based on solr 20:54 slef Have indexdata announced end-of-life? 20:54 slef zebra is dying??? 20:54 hdl Do you want to invest money in a dying sofrware ? 20:54 chris right, if its the solr zebra battle, im outta here, ill participate in the meeting when its called but its now 10am and i have to do some work 20:53 thd hdl: Yes, in fact. 20:53 hdl have you ever aksed for a quote ? 20:52 hdl are you kidding ? 20:52 hdl appropriate inducement ??? 20:52 slef hdl: sometimes. 20:51 thd hdl: For Z39.50/SRU server purposes as opposed to local indexing do you not have confidence that Index Data would find a fix with an appropriate inducement? 20:51 hdl slef: because of MARC::File::XML 20:51 chris i just dont think solr is a drop in replacement, until it can do sru/sw and z3950 etc 20:51 paul_p thd, for Aix-Marseille universities, 700k biblios, we had 14 that were invalid, and needed more than 3 days just to reindex : because Koha can display them, so they seemed OK 20:51 hdl a... position in field is also deprecated. 20:51 slef paul_p: koha also dies with a confused error when there is invalid utf8 in a biblio, at least in 3.0 in some situations. :-/ 20:51 chris im sure there are bugs in zebra 20:50 hdl and if you search for complete subfield... you will do a search on word. 20:50 paul_p thd, my main complaint against zebra/icu is that it dies without saying anything worth when there is an invalid utf8 char or diacritic in the biblio 20:49 hdl *stoire brings nothing 20:49 hdl for instance 20:49 hdl No... All of them 20:49 thd hdl: I had presumed that the issue was for some set of characters within ICU. 20:49 hdl to say the less 20:49 hdl but the problem is that support for icu.xml in zebra is rather.... poor 20:48 Brooke cheers lads./ 20:48 Brooke right no more Koha stuff today. 20:48 hdl at least my icu_chain.xml 20:48 thd hdl: All ICU usage? 20:48 hdl (well for facets... it is even the cas with charmap) 20:47 hdl icu usage. 20:47 paul_p Elwell, on nov 11th, no. It's more on nov,1st 20:47 clrh Bye bye too, see you soon and thanks for the meeting. 20:47 thd hdl: What triggers them? 20:47 hdl Do you need more ? 20:47 hdl no zebra facets. 20:47 Elwell paul_p: are the autoroutes traditionally busy with people making it a long weekend (faire le pont) 20:47 hdl no completenes 20:47 hdl no left truncation 20:46 thd hdl: Would you give some details of ICU bugs? 20:45 owen Veterans Day in the US 20:45 slef we get 2 minutes for that 20:45 paul_p lol 20:45 slef ah, a legal strike 20:45 paul_p (end of WW1) 20:45 paul_p slef, holiday 20:45 slef another strike? 20:45 paul_p ok, bye everybody, and see you tomorrow or later. Oups, not tomorrow, because it's closed in France ;-) 20:44 * sekjal has plenty of coffee on supply 20:44 thd If 2AM, stay up late. :) 20:44 tajoli bye 20:44 hdl hehe 20:44 Brooke toughen up! 20:44 hdl jwagner overcrowding NZ. 20:43 sekjal earlier for Alaska and Hawaii 20:43 sekjal meeting will be 2-5am for most of the continental USA 20:43 slef me too, when I'm sliding through 13 of them :-/ 20:43 jwagner_ especially with jet lag 20:43 cait :) 20:43 cait time zones confuse me 20:43 cait thd: yep, valid point - it was just a question 20:43 * chris_n will start looking for lists posts and meeting times for the aforementioned devel items 20:42 cait yeah, I know I was unclear with my question 20:42 thd cait: South Asian participation is important. 20:42 Elwell if only they'd anchor NZ somewhere closer to europe :-) 20:42 jwagner_ no us = everyone! 20:42 * gmcharlt declares the meeting adjourned 20:42 Lee :) 20:42 cait us = usa 20:42 * jwagner_ suggests moving all of us to NZ instead :-) 20:42 Brooke clearly they belong in the Carribean. 20:42 Brooke paul ++ 20:41 thd gmcharlt++ 20:41 * paul_p has suggested to move NZ to atlantic ocean, but seems even UN can't do that 20:41 cait ah 20:41 gmcharlt cait: that cuts out the Indians 20:41 * chris_n will get to drink extra coffee :-) 20:41 jwagner_ cait, I know 20:41 cait what about 10pm for kiwi and europe? too late too early for us? 20:41 wizzyrea no frowns. 20:41 jwagner_ Yeah, we get the early morning time slot this time :-( 20:41 gmcharlt ok, the next meeting is set for 10:00 UTC+0 on Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:41 chris yes 20:41 slef Brooke: cool. 20:41 paul_p chris, are you OK with this timing ? 20:40 chris thats better than the morning 20:40 Brooke a preliminary cloud is on the wiki in limbo, but I didn't want to link it until it's finalised on friday 20:40 chris 11pm for us 20:40 paul_p so, really perfect for europe (but not for kiwis) 20:40 paul_p oups, right, sorry 20:40 Brooke and I should have summat general by Friday next 20:40 chris_n paul_p: ? 20:40 gmcharlt paul_p: no, I'm pretty sure that means 11:00 a.m. for you 20:40 Brooke then the underpants gnoams will work on it 20:40 Brooke they will be compiled by Friday 20:39 slef Brooke: when are you going to do something with those 3-worders? 20:39 paul_p means 11PM for us ! 20:39 paul_p yikes ! 20:39 sekjal +1 20:39 cait +1 20:39 thd +1 20:39 gmcharlt thd: 8 December 20:38 chris_n +1 20:38 thd what date gmcharlt? 20:38 dpk Yeah! 20:38 gmcharlt ok, how about 10:00 UTC+0 ? 20:38 sekjal rotate time 8 hours one direction or another? 20:37 paul_p chris, yep, I had understood. and that's what we will do, definetly ! 20:37 chris you should call one for solr sooner if you want 20:37 Brooke I say inconvenience the yanks, since we inconvenienced the kiwis 20:37 chris paul_p: this is for the general meeting 20:37 slef I thought 1st Dec was some important date, but it's not marked in my calendar :-/ 20:37 gmcharlt anbody care to propose the time of day? 20:36 gmcharlt ok, majority is for 8 December 20:36 jwagner_ Either the 1st or 8th is fine 20:36 magnus +1 20:36 cait ++ 20:36 paul_p (would prefer dec 1st, though) 20:36 paul_p (would prefer dev 1st, though) 20:36 Lee +1 20:36 tajoli 8 Dec -- 20:36 paul_p works for me too 20:36 Colin ++ 20:36 sekjal 08 Dec 2010 ++ 20:35 dpk LGTM 20:35 owen 8 December +1 20:35 * chris_n goes back to work on C4::TimeMachine 20:35 gmcharlt slef++ 20:35 thd +1 8 December 20:35 slef I broke it next year. 20:35 slef I had a time machine. 20:35 slef looks good to me, assuming December 20:35 chris_n hehe 20:35 chris yeah 20:35 chris_n opps 20:35 wizzyrea +1 for december 20:35 gmcharlt rather, 8 December 2010, as I haven't completed my time machine either 20:35 Brooke else I'd need a time machine. 20:35 chris_n for Nov 20:34 chris_n +1 20:34 Brooke December? 20:34 * gmcharlt tosses out 8 November 2010 20:34 gmcharlt on to setting the date and time for the next genearl meeting 20:34 Brooke I move to recess 20:34 gmcharlt hearing none 20:33 gmcharlt any action items from http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_6_October_2010 to discuss? 20:33 slef I've been seeing a thread about solr gone away on vufind list, but I've not read the posts yet. 20:33 gmcharlt specifics regarding timing should be discussed on the mailing lists 20:33 gmcharlt and others who want to call such meetings are free to do so 20:32 paul_p except we will loose many great things solr has (but that's another discussion, I agree) 20:32 gmcharlt we have a nascent proposal for a technical discussion meeting, most likely on the topic of Solr 20:32 cait although I really liked what I saw in biblibre's poc - I think it should be discussed 20:32 slef gmcharlt++ 20:32 gmcharlt ok, dragging back to the agenda 20:32 chris thd++ 20:32 cait it seems to work with hebrew too - no complaints so far 20:32 thd Zebra together with Solr/Lucene until no regression. 20:32 hdl Data::SearchEngine is there. 20:32 sekjal hdl: great! 20:32 chris_n lets see if we can make the present venues work 20:32 hdl sekjal: expect a meeting on that and a post on kohadeve... 20:32 chris id happily see c4::search and c4::search::zebra and c4::search::solr and c4::search::nutch 20:31 chris_n paul_p: I'd like to see biblibre do a writeup to the list and propose a meeting to discuss solr 20:31 paul_p just for everybody information : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macron 20:31 slef Huh, I've a catalogue with non-latin items, not reporting problems, but it's not that big and I think they transliterated everything for the old systems. 20:31 paul_p chris, and you have a koha/zebra/maori ? congrats ! 20:31 hdl sekjal: we shall do some in the near future. 20:31 chris and have macrons 20:31 chris we speak maori here 20:31 chris i can 20:31 paul_p really 20:30 paul_p you can't imagine our pains... 20:30 paul_p really tired to have problems with diacritics. lucky english-natives ! 20:30 slef zebra++ 20:30 munin chris_n: Karma for "zebra" has been increased 3 times and decreased 9 times for a total karma of -6. 20:30 chris_n @karma zebra 20:30 chris regression_in_the_name_of_progress-- 20:30 chris_n poor zebra ;) 20:30 Brooke then I'm sticking the responses on the wiki 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 paul_p zebra-- 20:30 chris_n nothing stops anyone from putting "long term" items on the agenda 20:30 paul_p hdl++ 20:30 Brooke and folks are responding 20:30 Brooke I'm sticking stuff on the listserv for comment 20:30 hdl you donot have enoug problem with zebra. 20:30 jwagner_ solr is definitely a good idea that needs discussion soon 20:30 thd cfouts has raised an important issue of not having the workload and costs fall too heavily on any one support company for major issues which benefit everyone but are not the core problems of any sponsor in particular. 20:30 chris cait++ 20:30 sekjal hdl: I'd like to discuss solr and learn more about what it may mean for us. I'd happily attend a meeting 20:30 Brooke naught 20:30 cait why invent something new? 20:30 cfouts I think what's potentially missing is the same thing that people are complaining about being missing from the RFC process: no comment. 20:30 chris_n exactly 20:29 cait I think we should talk about long term things at the irc meetings too - and have proposals etc. on the wiki - what is stopping us from that? 20:29 slef hdl: no, not suspicion, solr looks like a bad idea to me at the moment. 20:29 Brooke dpk: just do eet. Join us ratbag consultants. 20:29 cait so propose a meeting time 20:29 chris_n ^^ 20:29 dpk It sounds like there is a real need for some more long term planning, but finding the right venue is going to be the challenge. 20:29 hdl solr 20:29 chris_n etc, etc, etc 20:29 chris_n same for DB restructuring 20:29 chris_n so why doesn't someone who feels the urgency of a move to ORM do a writeup to the list and propose a meeting time? 20:28 hdl slef: because it seems that whenever a proposition is done, ppl are suspicious. 20:28 thd oops jwagner 20:28 chris so its up to the organiser to promote their meeting/topic 20:28 thd jwagmer_: Those with an interest do the work. 20:28 slef Why is this being complicated? 20:28 chris well, theres your answer 20:27 chris if no one turns up 20:27 trea consensus decides 20:27 chris jwagner_: any one can call a meeting 20:27 slef ...who decides who decides we need to have a meeting about a meeting... 20:27 chris_n jwager_: anyone can propose it and schedule a time I think 20:27 cait the person proposing it 20:27 hdl chris as soon as there is open space for discussion and collaboration fine... 20:27 jwagner_ Question: who decides we need to have a meeting on ORM, etc.? And does background work to provide info? 20:27 magnus chris++ 20:27 thd chris++ 20:26 * Brooke heads straight for the pub. 20:26 cfouts not sure how that's any different than what is proposed 20:26 Brooke right 20:26 slef wizzyrea: no, no committees. 20:26 chris lets all go have a drink now 20:26 chris solved 20:26 chris soleve 20:26 chris BAM 20:26 chris_n ie. a meeting to discuss ORM, etc 20:26 cait chris+100 20:26 hdl chris++ 20:26 Brooke <3 chris 20:26 wizzyrea interested parties can attend, and there's your committee 20:26 Colin chris++ 20:26 chris_n chris++ 20:26 chris instead of a meeting about having meetings on techincal decisions 20:26 paul_p chris++ 20:26 cait chris++ 20:26 chris i suggest we just have meetings on technical decisions 20:25 jwagner_ I suggest a special meeting with this as the main/sole agenda item 20:25 chris with discussion summarised to the wiki and koha-devel 20:25 chris are a good place to discuss things like ORM 20:25 hdl ??? 20:25 chris i think meetings like this, we a more defined agenda 20:24 chris_n <snap> 20:24 chris but yeah we are getting off topic 20:24 chris_n ahh... db agnosticism is not what I call restructuring, sorry 20:24 chris to restructuring 20:24 chris thats database abstraction, thats a whole different thing 20:24 jwagner_ chris_n, examples of what? listserv discussion? Can't give you specifics right now, but I definitely remember a lot of traffic recently about MySQL, Postgres, etc. 20:23 chris_n jwager_: examples? 20:23 paul_p (yep, wanted to add we worked on this during the 1st KohaCon) 20:23 dpk jwagner_, fair enough. 20:23 chris and it still wasnt totally decided until the hackfest 20:23 jwagner_ I've seen discussion on the mailing list about database restructuring. 20:23 chris and tumer did a lot of testing 20:22 chris we did a lot more testing 20:22 cfouts which is why koha-devel does not strike me as an effective forum for that kind of planning 20:22 chris_n if it is so important, why are is it not being promoted in available forums? 20:22 chris no it wasnt decided then 20:22 paul_p wizzyrea, joshua proposed it, with some (few) benchmarks comparing with lucene, and it has been decided. 20:22 * chris_n has seen little discussion on the mailing list concerning either ORM or db restructuring 20:22 paul_p cfouts++ 20:22 wizzyrea so, as a reference point, how was the switch to zebra decided? 20:21 thd cfouts++ 20:21 jwagner_ dpk, I don't think this can wait another year. There's too much in the pipeline now. 20:21 davi talking and not doing does not help as much 20:21 paul_p chris, (we know you disagree with this idea. But i prefer hard discussion to seeing you staying silent) 20:21 thd hdl: We could go further than what we do at present without going so far we have a model which is not a free software model 20:21 dpk Sounds like a two-year plan for Koha development should be a major goal of the next KohaCon - with people prepping ahead of time. 20:21 cfouts davi, I don't think you realize the scale of this 20:21 davi well, or do it or do not talk about it 20:20 hdl davi HUGE work. 20:20 Brooke so speaking of long range vision, I've 23ish responses to my 3 word summaries of Koha >.> <.< 20:20 davi cfouts, no, just do it, and improve it 20:20 paul_p chris, can you explain more ? 20:20 hdl (or at least work) 20:20 hdl + db structure redesing 20:20 jwagner_ cfouts++ 20:20 chris i dont 20:20 hdl cfouts: but everyone agrees it is needed. 20:19 cfouts it's something that needs a long-term vision, backed by research, and a plan developed as to how it could be implemented 20:19 paul_p cfouts++ 20:19 Brooke chris_n go look at Brook's law. This is growing pains. 20:19 thd hdl: I think the problem is the degree of formalism. 20:19 jwagner_ But right now there are a _lot_ of defined ways, and people get confused 20:19 chris_n but again, we can only encourage communication, not enforce it 20:19 tajoli sometime yes, often no 20:19 jwagner_ wizzyrea, I think yes, if there was a defined process for doing so 20:19 cfouts example: the transition to using an ORM is a platform change that no one entity is going to do or pay for 20:19 davi nobody is forced to volunter 20:19 wizzyrea certainly if someone said "hey, i have an idea and I want a few folks to help me work it out" would people volunteer? 20:18 paul_p chris_n, agreed 20:18 davi hdl++ 20:18 hdl But there are structural needs. 20:18 chris_n communication is one of the core problems here as well 20:18 thd hdl++ 20:18 hdl And then... step by step enlarge. 20:18 hdl for the purpose of the group. 20:18 davi hdl ++ 20:18 hdl in that group 20:18 gmcharlt obviously it's in their intrest to communicate well during the process 20:18 hdl chris_n: we could work on building little workgroups and build concensus 20:18 chris and if it flies, it flies 20:18 tajoli Is softeware for library with few reasoures or not ? 20:18 gmcharlt and submits it up the chain 20:17 gmcharlt gets it working 20:17 gmcharlt paul_p: what happens is that somebody starts hacking together support for a new platform 20:17 chris paul_p: no there isnt 20:17 thd paul_p: Reliability as such may not be available but you could have much additional confidence which is less than reliability. 20:17 chris_n so unless the "committee" has the authority to say " we do this", it is little better than another voice in the crowd 20:17 gmcharlt paul_p: nope 20:17 tajoli I think that to cooperate at best we need to do evaluation on what is Koha 20:17 paul_p chris_n, whan the linux kernel decide to add a new platform, there is someone that decides this strategic decision isn't it ? 20:17 cfouts who is proposing to make anyone do anything, here? 20:17 slef back, reading 20:17 davi votes to the power 20:16 chris_n paul_p: we cannot *make* people do what we may think they should 20:16 wizzyrea that's not the point really (or certainly not what I meant). 20:16 paul_p jwagner_++ 20:16 Brooke sekjal that's a feature, not a bug 20:16 jwagner_ sekjal, that's the problem -- HOW do we best cooperate? 20:16 davi paul_p, ++ 20:16 chris_n paul_p: and with no enforcement mechanism, how do these propositions help? 20:16 sekjal fundamental problem: no one in the community can make anyone else do anything (except customers directing their vendors). we're all free to do as we please. hopefully, most of us choose to cooperate as best we can 20:16 paul_p I don't want to add bureaucracy, I want to add reliability 20:15 paul_p chris_n, disagreeing partially 20:15 chris_n jwagner_: encourage them to look at the RFC's on wiki 20:15 davi chris_n, ++ 20:15 hdl this should not be the task or the will of one company. 20:15 thd wizzyrea: I know the adage but the adage applied to free software is that free software is bad 20:15 chris_n this is a basic people problem and no amount of committee-ing it will fix it 20:15 hdl That could improve the work for everyone 20:15 jwagner_ The customers decide what gets developed, not PTFS 20:15 jwagner_ We would certainly encourage our customers who are interested in sponsoring development to look at a committee's recommendations. 20:15 paul_p dpk++ 20:15 hdl owen: there are structural work that needs to be done. 20:14 cfouts davi: that's what we're talking about 20:14 chris_n cfouts: that is why people need to start using wiki+BZ and vote 20:14 Brooke cfouts: each user his venue 20:14 paul_p but when a sponsored (major) dev arrive, a tech committee or something like that could be handy to help with our relations with the library. 20:14 davi cfouts, formalise it 20:14 owen jwagner_: How? You would have a committee instruct PTFS on what they should develop next? 20:14 cfouts davi: I don't have infinite time to look at all those venues 20:14 wizzyrea too many cooks spoil the soup :P 20:14 dpk Other projects have annual meetings (like KohaCon) these kind of strategy issues are dealt with face to face 20:14 Brooke erm, I think it's more a problem of Taylorism v. Organic governance 20:14 thd wizzyrea: many cooks make a nice feast for everyone 20:14 davi cfouts, count votes on all that medias 20:14 tajoli No, but it does a valutation 20:14 jwagner_ owen, I think that would be part of a committee's job, actually 20:13 paul_p owen, agreed (I may have misunderstood you) 20:13 LBA I think it isn't a problem with the venues for getting feedback and planning ahead, the problem is that there needs to be a guarantee of some kind of response. 20:13 owen paul_p: What I mean is that a technical committee can't imagine a new feature and then expect someone to develop it 20:13 cfouts there's a wiki and mailing lists and irc and bugzilla and whatever. 20:13 wizzyrea for one: lots and lots of cooks. 20:12 paul_p owen, that's where I disagree : if I have a contract signed and a technical committee says "no", then i can go back to my customer & negociate/find a good solution 20:12 chris_n cfouts: post to the list and then bump, bump, bump 20:12 cfouts they're too diffuse 20:12 owen jwagner_: steer? Encourage, I suppose. 20:12 thd cfouts: What about our existing forums is deficient for developing that vision? 20:12 cfouts chris_n: attention 20:12 LBA vision beyond next release still doesn't get a developer what they might need for their client (but I'm okay with that in the spirit of staying flexible as new needs/technology arise). 20:12 chris_n so what does such a committee benefit over what we have now? 20:12 jwagner_ owen, yes, but a group could steer and encourage development 20:12 cfouts people who are looking at architectural issues and working to build consensus about how to contribute in the present with an eye toward the future 20:12 owen A technical committee can't enforce their "vision" because it all depends on who funds the development 20:12 paul_p (not sure my last sentence was correct english ;-) ) 20:12 jwagner_ paul_p, correct 20:11 paul_p jwagner_, any vendor, or any library employed ppl 20:11 tajoli jwagner++ 20:11 chris_n wizzyrea++ 20:11 davi or who only attend meetings can vote too 20:11 cfouts I don't care what it's called, but Koha needs to have a vision of what's happening beyond the next release. 20:11 jwagner_ Right now, what's happening is that any vendor with development contracts is working independently with little coordination. 20:11 paul_p wizzyrea++ (convincing to vote) 20:11 davi so who only read email will vote too 20:11 davi owen, "more formal voting process", allowing to vote via any communication email, IRC, and so on, as the indivitual identity is verified 20:10 gmcharlt Lee: anybody who cares to express an opinion is represented 20:10 wizzyrea the real problem is convincing people to actually vote 20:10 hdl Brooke: vertical structure... maybe not... But collaboration. and work together.... I did hope so 20:10 Brooke I agree on formalisation of protocol. That's the ratbag consultant contingent's responsibility 20:10 paul_p wizzyrea, maybe, but until now, it has been quite un-efficient :\ 20:10 jwagner_ I think there needs to be some one/group that takes responsibility to look beyond the current release and identify areas that need improvement, that need attention, and that people are willing to sponsor -- not for the next release but for the one, two, three releases after that. 20:10 thd However, when it comes to running verified code votes count for very little. 20:10 Lee galen are libraries represented on the devel committee? 20:10 wizzyrea we have had that for a while 20:09 thd We could create a mechanism such as voting on bugs to have greater clarity. 20:09 cait late... but I got distracted 20:09 hdl and some design options has to be coped with on a longer term. 20:09 cait gmcharlt++ 20:09 hdl Nothing clear 20:08 jwagner_ It's a great mechanism for floating ideas and discussing possibilities. 20:08 Brooke if you're looking for vertical structure in an open source project, you will be disappointed routinely. 20:08 LBA I think was is missing is not a Technical Committee but some clarity about protocol...thus my incessant nagging 20:08 hdl No decision is taken via email 20:08 paul_p gmcharlt, disagreeing 20:08 owen I think maybe what we really need is a more formal voting process to bring to questions which a technical committee might otherwise address 20:08 chris_n jwagner_: how will a technical committee with no way to enforce its decisions help that problem? 20:08 davi jwagner, Technical Committee can fail at taking decision too, in the same way, and even worse; take the worn ones some time. 20:08 tajoli gmcharlt++ 20:08 hdl gmcharlt-- 20:08 LBA gmcharlt++ 20:08 jwagner_ gmcharlt, that is not any kind of structured decision-making forum 20:08 chris gmcharlt++ 20:08 magnus gmcharlt++ 20:08 thd gmcharlt++ 20:08 hdl Both from users, libraries, and from developers as to making a successfull collaboration 20:08 Brooke ++ galen 20:07 * gmcharlt submits that the technical committee already exists, and is to be found on koha-devel 20:07 jwagner_ We've had a lot of topics on the agenda today and been unable/unwilling to make decisions on many of them. I think that's a good reason in favor of having some kind of technical committee -- some group with responsibility to guide the future of the project. 20:07 hdl there is a reall need for clarity... 20:07 tajoli ++ 20:07 hdl ++ for not deciding but discuss. 20:06 gmcharlt ok, the direction of the vote is clear enough 20:06 sekjal ++ for not deciding 20:06 paul_p I have expressed my opinion widely on koha ML, I won't repeat. but if you want, I can ;-) 20:06 Colin ++ 20:06 davi ++ not decide now 20:06 magnus ++ 20:06 * dpk ++ not decide now 20:05 thd ++ 20:05 LBA ++ not to decide anything today 20:05 * chris_n seconds 20:05 davi hdl, All the interested would show opinion in the decision taking process, as now 20:05 gmcharlt ok, there is a motion to not decide the issue now 20:05 paul_p agreed not to decide now. just want to discuss of this. 20:04 davi optional 20:04 thd gmcharlt: I like to move a question of not deciding the issue now. 20:04 davi with vote delegation 20:04 davi voting at each decision ++ 20:04 davi Anyway people can delegate his vote if they want, and that would lend to a more valanced Technical Committee in a natural way on demand 20:04 gmcharlt ok, I'm calling the vote - preponderance of people who have voted is to *not* postpone the discussion item 20:04 Lee abstains 20:03 hdl davi: when should decision be taken... and who should decide ? 20:03 davi Technical Committee -- 20:03 davi ack paul_p 20:03 davi voting at each decision ++ 20:03 paul_p davi, that's what we have to discuss ;-) 20:02 davi Is not voting at each decision enough? 20:02 Colin abstains 20:02 * wizzyrea abstains — I have time both now and later 20:02 davi Is a Technical Committee actually needed? 20:02 BobB BobB abstains 20:02 magnus ++ 20:02 * Brooke is as silent as the average RFC respondant. 20:02 * jcamins abstains - won't be able to stay for the discussion today, probably 20:02 cait ++ 20:01 hdl ! (I want to explain my position) 20:01 owen ++ 20:01 tajoli -- 20:01 thd -- Discussion, if it is not deciding does no harm. 20:01 chris ++ 20:00 paul_p -- 20:00 cfouts -- 20:00 jwagner_ -- 20:00 hdl -- 20:00 LBA ++ 20:00 * gmcharlt abstains 20:00 gmcharlt so ... getting the procedural bit out the way, I call a vote to postpone to the December meeting 20:00 thd chris_n :) 20:00 gmcharlt and a request to postpone (presumably until the next general meeting) 19:59 * chris_n groans at the thought of trying to gain a consensus on two such items in one meeting 19:59 gmcharlt so we have an agenda item relating to a current discussion on the mailing lists 19:59 chris yes, tests will win you lots of karma 19:59 gmcharlt proposal to form a Technical Committee + request this discussion be postponed due to short notice at a time when many Kohacon10 participants were travelling 19:59 gmcharlt so the agenda item: 19:59 gmcharlt write a bugfix, write a regression test for it 19:59 gmcharlt hdl: the beauty is that tests can be added incremental - write a new feature, write tests for it 19:58 gmcharlt the next non-routine item: 19:58 hdl gmcharlt: + all the new tests.... to be written. 19:58 gmcharlt ok, now that chris is doing haiku, definitely time to move on in the agenda ;) 19:58 chris http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Patches_pushed_4_November/ 19:58 chris i did some haiku too 19:57 chris hdl: just random things to make list of patches more interesting 19:57 hdl A bird in the hand makes it awfully hard to blow your nose. 19:57 slef bbl 19:57 LBA okay, thanks for clarification. 19:57 hdl chris what ar those fortunes ? 19:57 gmcharlt hdl: with the QA process coming into place, and with hudson, HEAD will also be *more* stable 19:57 chris fixed for master, then ported back to 3.2.x is how we are doing it 19:57 chris LBA: bugs have to be fixed for both release streams 19:56 chris hdl: yep he would have to be careful, cherry pick or rebase --onto 19:56 LBA bug=responsibility of Release Maintainer? and enh=responsibility of Release Manager for next release (potentially)? 19:56 chris http://blog.bigballofwax.co.nz/2010/11/05/pretty-graph-showing-the-last-weeks-worth-of-merges/ 19:56 hdl merging could make features get into stable 19:56 chris i gots a picture 19:56 gmcharlt k, anything more to say about the branch structure? 19:56 chris etc 19:55 * chris_n too 19:55 jransom (gotta go folks - thanks all - bye) 19:55 chris or he could merge new/bug_3421 19:55 * hdl loves branch management 19:55 chris yup 19:55 hdl he could rebase --onto master... 19:55 hdl helping chris_n++ 19:55 chris its easy to cherry-pick from those branches 19:55 hdl chris++ 19:55 cfouts gotcha 19:54 chris cfouts: it helps chris_n a lot 19:54 hdl chris ok cool 19:54 cfouts what is the purpose of distinguishing between bug and enhancement? 19:54 paul_p for example : http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Guided_reports_serials_RFC 19:54 paul_p chris_n, i've written a wiki template, that is very handful 19:54 chris at least enough testing to be considered for master 19:54 chris if they dont have /awaiting_qa/ 19:53 chris they are tested 19:53 hdl chris what about new/tested/bug/// new/tested/enh/... 19:53 chris_n cool 19:53 paul_p chris_n, yep 19:53 chris_n paul_p: are there enh reqs in bugzilla for biblibre's latest RFCs? 19:53 wizzyrea gmcharlt++ 19:53 LBA gmcharlt :-* 19:53 paul_p thd, I would like to be optimistic like you're ;-) 19:53 chris gmcharlt++ 19:52 gmcharlt and ultimately ... it's better to discuss and/or promote the actual RFCs than have a discussion about having those discussions that goes on without any clear end 19:52 chris new/awaiting_qa/ for ones that need qa then will move to one or the other 19:52 thd paul_p: I am confident that we will sort the issue. 19:52 paul_p gmcharlt, & thd ok 19:52 cait I think we can start doing things - like having bugs for rfc's - asking for feedback etc. 19:52 chris new/ for bugfixes 19:52 chris new/enh for new features 19:52 thd paul_p: It will take time 19:52 chris etc 19:52 chris http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Patches_Pushed_10_November/ 19:52 chris and what i did 19:51 gmcharlt paul_p: perhaps not, but I think we have achieved a better understanding of the issues 19:51 chris and see what i am working on here 19:51 paul_p gmcharlt, you're probably right. and it's too bad = means we decide nothing :\ 19:51 chris http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Branches_to_merge/ 19:51 chris http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=heads you can see the branches in action here 19:51 gmcharlt which is why it is handy that there are multiple forums available to us, including the mailing lists 19:50 cait yep 19:50 gmcharlt LBA: consensus? no, I don't think we've achieved it, but I am also pretty sure that that we could debate this for hours and not get there 19:50 thd Brooke: Zen programmes? 19:49 gmcharlt not sure what this one is about; if its' about branches in the public repo, chris has laid out hte scheme he intends to use 19:49 jransom notes that the term'ratbag' appears to fallen into common usage .... :) 19:49 LBA gmcharlt, is that it? I'm not clear on any consensus. can you summarize? 19:49 slef someone is making odd noises... I'm going to move... biab 19:49 gmcharlt next item is git management (branches) 19:49 gmcharlt ok, in the interest of time ... moving on 19:48 slef erm, this deserted station doesn't seem the safest place 19:48 * Brooke believes in Zen programmes 19:48 Brooke and in a worst case, we can hire someone to put em back 19:48 Brooke like on say loosing RDA like features. 19:48 munin slef: Error: "shut" is not a valid command. 19:48 Brooke we can scream bloody murder though Paul 19:48 slef munin: shut it ratbag! 19:47 gmcharlt if somebody really wanted to maintain NoZebra (or a pure-perl search engine, more generally), they could do so 19:47 chris_n only if the documentation is kept up 19:47 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=1234 enhancement, P2, ---, paul.poulain, NEW, Parameter: Bar Code # Prefix for book / patron searching 19:47 slef actually, if someone ported a list like bug 1234 5678 5692 then it would be easy to put that into bz's search box and step through and vote. 19:47 paul_p that is a pain for users : no one has announced "NoZebra is no more supported", and it's not fair for users 19:47 gmcharlt but ultimately ... that was fine 19:47 chris_n ^^ what he said 19:47 cfouts which is fine 19:47 paul_p ...silently... 19:47 hdl So NoZebra became unsupported. 19:46 gmcharlt and some things can be handled with well designed architecture 19:46 hdl Since in the end it was proved that Nozebra could not provide users with the same features. 19:46 chris_n slef: anyway you like as long as it shows up in bugzilla ;-) 19:46 Brooke thd ++ 19:46 thd gmchalt++ 19:46 hdl gmcharlt: this example is quite good. 19:46 slef chris_n: can we vote by mail? ;) 19:46 paul_p tajoli++ (consensus on core changes) 19:46 slef hdl: no, should be added to a release category. 19:45 chris_n how hard is it to read and vote, folks? 19:45 tajoli No, for me consenus is mandatory only on core change (like Solr) 19:45 hdl sekjal: should contain a release number when planned. 19:45 slef chris_n: using bugzilla's voting could be good. 19:45 thd tajoli: Core: changes can often be written to require less of a core change instead of either/or alternative. 19:45 gmcharlt hence some disagreement can be dealt with by accommodate paralel implementations of the same functionality 19:45 paul_p sekjal, that's what I did with RFC last week, but can probably still be improved 19:45 slef hdl: at least 1 so far to each. more promo/discussiomn needed, but it's up to me to get it. I'm not going to suggest others have some duty to care about our ideas. 19:45 cfouts sekjal++ 19:45 chris_n what about using bugzilla's vote feature to help clarify community consensus on any given RFC? 19:45 gmcharlt two search engines, both (more or less) supported 19:44 gmcharlt hdl: well, consider Zebra vs. NoZebra 19:44 sekjal since there is no guarantee that any RFC will be part of any release, perhaps the RFC section of the wiki should be decoupled from any release number 19:44 hdl gmcharlt: can you detail ? 19:44 slef hdl: only 3 in 3.4 category so far I think. 19:44 hdl how many response ? 19:44 gmcharlt the syspref mechanism being the obvious example 19:43 gmcharlt note that there are technical mechanisms to solve at least a couple of the social problems 19:43 hdl how many RFC have you posted ? 19:43 dpk I think forms like this could be used to review RFCs that lack feedback. 19:43 slef hdl: not for me. 19:43 Brooke sounds a bit like free code day 19:43 LBA tajoli...really? 19:43 Brooke hmmm 19:43 hdl slef: but it seems that it is quite often the case. 19:43 paul_p tajoli, "in the next version" => not necessary. 19:43 wizzyrea they can come out any time within the cycle 19:43 tajoli But for core change (like solr), we need a vote 19:43 wizzyrea well a dedicated week or month where RFC's that could concievably be delivered in time for the next release are discussed 19:42 hdl (too seldom in fact) 19:42 tajoli I think that RFC only about "feature" you can say: I whant you opinion (on dev e general list) and if there aren't disagree, the answer is "the next version" 19:42 slef LBA: you can't tell what non-response means except it wasn't enough to get a response. 19:42 thd LBA: However, there is a duty of developers and sponsors to promote discussion. 19:42 hdl s/lave/late/ 19:42 hdl wizzyrea: to lave only once a release. 19:42 jwagner_ paul_p -- ditto -- there has to be some way to decide as a group what's in the best interest 19:42 Brooke where's the line between local customisation and a fork? 19:42 chris not talk about taling about rfc 19:42 * Brooke gets out the bottle of gasoline 19:41 thd LBA: Silence is abstaining at least 19:41 chris i think people should talk about rfc 19:41 paul_p owen, exactly !!! so = what is the project's best interest ? who decides what it is ? 19:41 jwagner_ owen, developers may not either. 19:41 Brooke uh 19:41 Brooke so 19:41 * chris_n thinks people should comment on RFCs even if only to say "nice idea" 19:41 LBA wizzyrea++ 19:41 hdl jwagner_: not only sponsors... But users. 19:41 chris_n jwagner_: yes, but they are effectively members of the community as well and so are one voice of many 19:41 wizzyrea What about a RFC roundup at the end of every release, to see what could possibly, given a delivery date of X before the next release, go in 19:41 owen jwagner_: Sponsors don't always have the project's best interests in mind 19:41 thd cait++ 19:41 LBA yes thd, does silence mean "good idea!" or "yikes, no way" or "I'm too busy" 19:40 thd paul_p: There is a space between a guarantee and silence 19:40 jwagner_ Sponsors should be able to say if it's a good feature 19:40 LBA I don't think anyone expects a guarantee of inclusion in next release but a tentative yes or no is important 19:40 chris_n well developed and promoted RFCs are a must; however, people participation is a must also 19:40 cait I think if someone has a problem with an rfc he will speak up - I really like the proposed things for acq and serials 19:40 paul_p s/it's/it will/ 19:40 slef we can say that 19:40 paul_p but we (community) should be able to say "yes it's a good feature" or "no, it's not a good feature". 19:39 cait so what guarantees do you expect? 19:39 paul_p chris, I fully agree with that (guaranted acceptance in a release) 19:39 slef paul_p: speak for your own rfcs! 19:39 chris YOU CANT HAVE GUARANTEES 19:39 chris i dont know how i can say this any other way 19:39 paul_p but until now, rfc resulted in only few responses 19:38 chris still will not result in the feature being guaranteed acceptance in a release 19:38 slef but any supporter could 19:38 slef rfc author usually leads consensus-building 19:38 chris deciding on a rfc 19:38 Brooke provided no response on rfc 19:38 Brooke here now or on the listserv 19:38 LBA paul_p++ 19:38 paul_p Brooke, ok, but what/who/when do we make a consensus ? 19:37 Brooke just do it is nice but you're gambling on inclusion 19:37 jwagner_ paul_p++ 19:37 Brooke consensus before a write = less risk of a drop 19:37 paul_p because it's silly to invest a lot of time if the feature is not accepted at the end. Everybody will have pain with that 19:37 paul_p - is the feature something we want into Koha => we must decide before it's written if yes or no 19:36 paul_p (I mean technically OK) 19:36 paul_p - is a code properly written => RM role, we all agree 19:36 paul_p according to me there are 2 differents things : 19:35 paul_p back to previous discussion ;-) 19:35 chris oh look theres that thing i said was on the agenda for later 19:34 gmcharlt RFCs agreement workflow (discussion about the workflow for RFCs to be accepted/validated) 19:34 gmcharlt OK, moving on 19:33 gmcharlt owen: autocomplete sounds perfect to start - only a few places use it 19:33 hdl (yes... But should this be done on the same branch ?) 19:33 owen I think we might put off doing buttons/menus until the jUI menu widget comes out of beta 19:33 owen The jUI autocomplete widget is out of beta, so that might be something to start with 19:33 gmcharlt hdl: good idea, but also a different matter - orthogonal to jQuery/UI replacing YUI 19:33 owen Well, we actually need to merge some non-UI jquery things to jUI as well, so I thought we'd start with tabs 19:32 hdl could also be done with some performance improvements of javascript( putting javascript at teh end of pages for instanceà 19:32 gmcharlt owen: any suggestions, off-hand, about what to try first? 19:32 owen I agree with gmcharlt on replacing particular widgets first 19:31 owen paul_p: No, because jQuery is all JavaScript, not CSS 19:31 robinHome One thing (I think) worth looking at at the same time is making Koha work with current jquery. It's stuck on an old version at the moment. 19:31 paul_p owen, why ? isn't there a css grid with jqueryui ? 19:31 gmcharlt and pick a particular widget to replace first 19:31 gmcharlt so I suggest that we introduce jQuery/UI 19:31 owen everything but the CSS grids layout 19:31 gmcharlt ok, so how about this: it is an open question whether a complete switchover could be done in 3.4 19:30 paul_p owen, bug ? or but ? 19:30 jwagner_ I think jquery is the better path for the future 19:30 owen I'm for abandoning YUI for everything bug the CSS grids layout 19:30 paul_p BibLibre devs complains about having 2 differents toolkits 19:30 robinHome Yeah, I'm quite fond of the idea. 19:30 gmcharlt and I think jQuery/UI is up to the task 19:30 wizzyrea owen, do you have a feeling about abandoning YUI 19:30 gmcharlt from my point of view, does have advantages, primarily because it would simplify things 19:30 paul_p I feel it's a good idea. 19:30 paul_p gmcharlt, yep, I suggested that. But have no specific plan. Just wondering 19:29 slef can it be done at tt-switchover time? 19:29 paul_p not sure it's the easiest one, but it will be the less hard-discuted one ;-) 19:29 gmcharlt this is a proposal from paul_p (?) to replace use of YUI with jQuery/UI 19:29 slef sounds ok to me... implications? 19:29 gmcharlt jqueryui adoption instead of YUI 19:29 gmcharlt I'm going to pick the easiest one first to start: 19:28 gmcharlt moving onward, four items left 19:28 robinHome slef: I don't think it would. It would effectively be GPLv2, but with unused bits added. 19:28 gmcharlt ok, I think we've exhausted this one (discussion of licenses can go on wiki and list) 19:28 thd jwagner: we can discuss anything but neither LGPL nor Apache are permissible upgrades from GPL 2, invoked with the or later version option 19:28 slef robinHome: would it gain *anything* at all? 19:27 davi LGPL -- 19:27 davi s/GPLv+/GPLv3+/ 19:27 robinHome LGPL would be a wierd one for a web app. 19:27 davi jwagner, I think only options were: 1) as now, 2) GPLv+ 3) AGPLv3+ 19:27 thd ... and catching up on KohaCon 19:27 jwagner_ OK, we will add those and some others for consideration. 19:26 thd I would have done more in advance but I have been researching Z39.50 options. 19:26 gmcharlt jwagner_: I don't recall LGPL and Apache being discussed, but if you want to advocate for them, I think that would be in bounds; I do suggest doing so before the meeting next month 19:25 thd gmcharlt++ 19:25 jwagner_ To clarify, the page shows three licenses. There were others being considered, as I recall (LGPL and Apache) -- should they be added to this page? 19:25 davi if somebody came first I will just review and improve it if possible 19:25 gmcharlt and dedicate a portion of the next general IRC meeting to decide the logics of if, when, and how to hold the vote 19:25 davi I will add content to the http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_AGPL_3_option one, as promised when I have time 19:25 gmcharlt I propose that we put out a call to review the material that thd and others have put together 19:24 gmcharlt regarding the ballot 19:24 wizzyrea thd: I am sorry that you had those problems at all :( 19:24 thd http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Copyright_License_Upgrade_Ballot_IRC_Meeting_-_13_July_2010 19:24 thd I am sorry that my broken computer, and infection which will not leave me created a delay. 19:24 davi looking 19:23 thd Most importantly I summarised the special ballot IRC meeting. 19:23 slef ok, I'll look by weekend 19:23 thd The content is all linked from http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_copyright_license 19:22 thd I actually made some improvements to the wiki to make the information easier to find. 19:21 chris_n paul_p: then we can have all of the discussion necessary :) 19:21 thd During KohaCon I added content to the wiki to restart the license upgrade ballot process after KohaCon 19:21 paul_p (and still not convinced, but I'll live with it, no problem) 19:21 gmcharlt thd: I assume you add this one, so the floor is yours 19:21 chris_n paul_p: I'll make a post to the list later 19:20 paul_p gmcharlt, (I don't have a problem, I just want to understand) 19:20 gmcharlt Restarting the Koha copyright license upgrade ballot process for Koha 3.4 previously postponed from the Koha Copyright License Upgrade Ballot IRC Meeting - 13 July 2010. 19:20 gmcharlt next item 19:20 gmcharlt we have a bunch of other big topics on the agenda 19:20 gmcharlt moving on - if people have a problem with chris_n's proposed management of 3.2.x, let's take it to the mailing lists 19:20 chris and then pulled back to 3.2.x 19:20 paul_p thd, we used CVS when I was RMaint, that's much different (and we had not so many contributors as we have today) 19:20 slef I doubt clients would want to break community development. 19:19 chris if a bug exists in 3.2.x it exists in master 19:19 chris jwagner_: patches should be submitted on master 19:19 * jwagner_ is getting confused 19:19 chris so now i can get asked 50 questions at once nd have a chance to respond 19:19 thd paul_p: You were release maintainer when patches were being submitted to the current branch in addition to HEAD/master. 19:19 jwagner_ chris_n, can you clarify the process? Patches for 3.2.x also go into the line for 3.4? 19:19 hdl ( Brooke becaus managers will be managers ;à ) ) 19:19 * chris is back at his computer 19:18 chris there should never ever ever ever ever bet x00 patches at once again 19:18 chris_n but that is really always the case 19:18 * Brooke is having trouble understanding why clients are easier to talk to than Release Managers 19:18 chris_n before submitting for 3.2.x 19:18 thd hdl: We actually did that at one time in general. 19:18 chris_n paul_p: once things diverge to that point, the submitter will be responsible to ensure that the patch merges 19:18 hdl And chris_n would be able to ask for someone for signoff 19:17 jwagner_ Brooke, submission can depend on client approval, so there might very well be many at once. 19:17 slef paul_p: depends what for. security has its own patches for stable. 19:17 paul_p gmcharlt, what is the problem with having patches for 3.2.x and cherry picking them to head ? 19:17 hdl I would propose that bugfixes on 3.2 would be submit by companies on both branches when they diverge. 19:17 gmcharlt paul_p: chris_n can pick and choose; there is no obligation to backport everything from HED to 3.2.x 19:17 thd paul_p: Do you mean too many to examine? 19:17 Brooke early submission means shouldn't be X00 patches at a given moment, no? 19:17 paul_p do you (all) know if project like Debian on linux does like this ? I thought they had patches for stable & patches for "master", and they were differents 19:16 paul_p gmcharlt, how I see it : when there will be X00 patches in master, that will be a BIG deal for chris_n to deal with them. hdl had this problem for 3.0.x 19:16 thd gmcharlt++ 19:16 slef gmcharlt++ 19:16 chris_n hdl: it seems rather clear that when that happens, we will push the patch to a testing branch and then merge it to the 3.2.x branch 19:15 cait gmcharlt++ 19:15 jwagner_ hdl++ 19:15 gmcharlt paul_p: another way of stating - if a particular patch is too difficult to cherry-pick into 3.2.x, it is likely too much of a new feature to stick into 3.2.x with 3.4 coming in spring 2011 19:15 hdl Don't you want to think about a plan beforehand ? 19:15 chris_n if something turns up uniquely 3.2.x, we will deal with that 19:14 slef chris_n++ 19:14 paul_p gmcharlt, ??? 19:14 gmcharlt paul_p: 3.2.x does not need to be all things to all users; with chris' time-based release for 3.4, focuses on bugfixes for 3.2.x is fine 19:14 * nengard apologizes but she has to go teach a webinar now - will read the logs later 19:14 chris_n hdl: I plan to cross that bridge when I come to it :) 19:14 paul_p so I think it would be better to have patches on stable cherry picked to master 19:13 chris_n so Nov 22, Dec 22, etc 19:13 paul_p because there are too much patches on master, and new features & all that stuff 19:13 chris_n I plan to release ever 30 days unless there are no patches to push 19:13 hdl chris_n what is your plan when HEAD will diverge from 3.2 ? 19:13 paul_p about this question: i think cherry picking patches from master to stable is one of the pains hdl had with 3.0 RMaint. 19:13 gmcharlt cool 19:13 cait chris_n++ 19:13 chris_n that's the procedure I plan to follow for the foreseeable future 19:13 sekjal chris_n++ (for that) 19:12 chris_n ok, I'm pushing patches as fast as they show up in HEAD at present 19:12 gmcharlt chris_n: please go ahead (I already mentioned the Nov 22nd date for 3.2.1) 19:12 gmcharlt yes 19:12 nengard should we go back to chris_n for his update on 3.2? 19:12 paul_p gmcharlt, yep, that's my opinion too 19:11 hdl (due to the hard work we are all contributing on 3.2) 19:11 gmcharlt paul_p: we should - this is a discussion that cannot properly take place without chris 19:11 hdl So it could be quite a heavy task to rebase on a day to base those branches. 19:11 slef chris: I should have given you lessons! 19:11 paul_p should we suspend the meeting until chris is fully with us ? 19:11 hdl And rebasing is quite dangerous. 19:11 slef LBA: I'll cover that later. 19:11 chris Bbl 19:11 chris I can't type fast enough 19:10 chris Ok this doesn't work on the phone 19:10 hdl gmcharlt++ 19:10 hdl and thanks for that 19:10 chris_n back; sorry, got called away 19:10 chris And gmcharlt has done testing on the reports 19:10 nengard this is all under the next agenda item - we're still on roadmap to 3.4 19:10 LBA slef, basing this belief on what others have said on the list. 19:10 hdl our code was always public 19:10 chris Send code early and oftwn 19:10 hdl for rebasing all the branches. 19:09 hdl much work has been done 19:09 sekjal It would certainly make developers lives easier if there was some kind of criteria we could code towards that would make our developments strong candidates for inclusion 19:09 tajoli But Zebra with ICU has many problems 19:09 slef LBA: oh. What's you most recent experience? 19:09 gmcharlt chris: hdl: paul_p: anything specific to say about that? 19:09 jwagner_ Sorry, not clear on the responses. What about SOLR? 19:08 LBA cait and brendan....I don't think that's how it works in practice 19:08 gmcharlt sub-item: BibLibre branches submitted to QA (roadmap & what's still expected from BibLibre. feedback from librarians) 19:08 paul_p brendan, that's impossible to "let's see" for large devs ! 19:08 gmcharlt moving onwards 19:08 slef tajoli++ 19:08 gmcharlt there are items later in the agenda that can cover some of this ground 19:08 tajoli I have users that can't use it 19:08 chris Yes 19:08 cait brendan++ 19:08 slef chris: are you ok passing fixed-in-3.4 bugs to 3.2? 19:08 tajoli That is difficult to say Yes/No on Solr 19:08 jwagner_ chris, my comment is for later, or the SOLR one? 19:07 slef I've never had no comment to an RFC, as far as I can recall. 19:07 chris For later 19:07 chris This is its own agenda iten 19:07 hdl jwagner_++ 19:07 paul_p what about our RFC for moving to solR for example ? 19:07 jwagner_ The customers sponsoring the work are defining the specifications and ultimately the direction of the application (not just our customers, all customers of all vendors). 19:07 paul_p chris: not off topic ! 19:07 nengard slef++ 19:07 brendan no comments should = go with it - let's see what it looks like 19:07 slef LBA: then ask again. 19:07 chris So is there anything more about 3.4? 19:06 slef paul_p: ask me after. 19:06 LBA what if the community doesn't comment? 19:06 magnus nengard++ 19:06 chris Ok way off topic 19:06 paul_p slef, OK. So how do we build consensus ? 19:06 nengard you put up the rfc, the community comments and if the comments are positive the concept is accepted - but if you code it like crap chris gets to throw it out 19:06 hdl When ? 19:06 hdl how Who ? 19:06 slef build consensus around the rfc 19:06 LBA that's what I'm trying to understand...where do concepts get accepted? 19:06 thd :) 19:06 nengard chris++ 19:05 chris I don't accept concepts I accept code 19:05 LBA jwagner++ 19:05 nengard that's a community decision 19:05 thd paul_p: What is two different things? 19:05 nengard i don't think that the RM should get the only say in what concept is accepted 19:05 chris Yes 19:05 jwagner_ The concept could be accepted, but the code might need work. 19:05 paul_p checking if it's technically OK => we all agree. 19:05 wizzyrea fix and resubmit? 19:05 jwagner_ chris, two different problems -- the concept and the actual code 19:05 slef it's up to the devs to make it good enough for inclusion 19:04 hdl but even then... you could say no 19:04 chris What if it has sql injections? 19:04 paul_p chris, that's 2 differents things ! 19:04 chris Until I see the code 19:04 slef yay, a train! 19:04 chris jwagner: they won't ever get that from me 19:04 chris nengard yes 19:03 Brooke (harmony is hard to dictate) 19:03 nengard (and other stuff i'm sure) 19:03 nengard with the new code 19:03 nengard and to make sure features aren't scrapped 19:03 wasabi morning 19:03 jwagner_ They would like some assurance that it will be included in a future release. 19:03 nengard as a community we can agree in principle with the idea or suggest tweaks/changes - but i see what chris is saying - he job is to evaluate coda 19:03 * wasabi waves 19:03 paul_p I still feel something is missing in our workflow... 19:03 jwagner_ chris, I have a problem with that workflow -- if we have customers who have contracted for that work, we have to do it and submit it. 19:03 chris I will certainly say things sound like a good idea 19:02 chris I care once it exists 19:02 slef so no ageed-in-principle for 3.4? 19:02 chris Others should comment on it before it exists 19:02 paul_p ok, got it 19:02 cait before will not ensure good code 19:02 thd Like committing, ask early and ask often 19:02 paul_p chris : ??? 19:02 chris I'm rm not god 19:02 paul_p if before => that's exactly what I want to "implement" in our workflow ! 19:01 chris Not my worry 19:01 paul_p if after => pain for the guy who did the job 19:01 slef LBA: yippee, please do? 19:01 paul_p chris, you'll ask ppl before of after it's submitted ? 19:01 chris Like I'm doing with analytical stuff 19:01 cait no regression 19:00 chris Ill ask people 19:00 LBA what's the best I can hope for (as a client contracting with a developer) in terms of what kind of responses my developer might get to his or her RFP? 19:00 wizzyrea of course 19:00 paul_p I know I'm annoying you when asking this question, but it's still unclear to me! 19:00 wizzyrea signed off where appropriate 19:00 wizzyrea [bug xxxx, xxxx] [Signed Off] Commit message 19:00 chris It all is in the maybe stage 19:00 paul_p chris: jumping in my ml-thread question: how will you decide if a feature is something good or not for Koha ? (independantly from being well coded) 19:00 thd promises, promises :) 19:00 chris From an rfc 18:59 hdl or use a naming convetion ? 18:59 chris But ill never promise something for a release 18:59 chris I might say not for this release 18:59 nengard gmcharlt++ 18:59 hdl Should we add that as a remark ? 18:59 cait I think the more information the better 18:59 chris LBA: no 18:59 slef thd: something to do with souffles IIRC 18:59 chris I make branches for every bug yes 18:59 gmcharlt nengard: and proof is easier to come by if we collectively commit to reviewing, testing, and signoff on each other's patches 18:59 paul_p (gotcha, thx) 18:59 LBA Chris, might you say yes to the concept at RFC stage? 18:59 hdl maybe a link to the branch exposed could help.... 18:58 thd paul_p: There must be an equivalent expression in French. 18:58 hdl So there should be branch for the bug. 18:58 nengard once he sees the proof that it's good stuff 18:58 chris List them all 18:58 nengard paul_p it means that if it's good code he'll put it in 18:58 chris hdl: yes 18:58 hdl Some patch will fix other bugs. 18:58 paul_p (the proof is in the pudding ???) 18:58 hdl should all of them have the same bug attached ? 18:58 gmcharlt hdl: that's not a problem 18:57 chris But the proof is in the pudding 18:57 hdl chris : multiple patch can refer to one bug 18:57 chris :) 18:57 chris I might say no tho 18:57 chris I'm not saying yes to anything based on an rfc 18:57 cait chris++ 18:57 chris Patch early patch often 18:57 LBA librarian humor :-D 18:57 nengard chris++ 18:57 chris Until I see the code 18:56 chris For my rule its all maybe 18:56 cait Brooke++ 18:56 Brooke the code is a living organism 18:56 Brooke save the time of the developers 18:56 LBA thank you gmcharlt! one of my q's answered: multple bug numbers per RFC 18:56 thd slef: I am not certain about categories. 18:56 nengard :) 18:56 hdl nengard: namely including link to wiki RFC in bug file description... and link to bug in RFC. 18:56 cait Ilove ranganathan 18:56 chris Or else ! 18:56 paul_p (or is it eclipse foundation ?) 18:55 chris Every patch its bug and every bug its patch 18:55 slef thd: can you sub to/watch a category? 18:55 paul_p chris, foundations like lucene have a roadmap displaying "will be" "maybe", "could be" in the next release on the roadmap. Do you think it could be a good thing ? 18:55 wizzyrea goes both ways: put a link in your bug to your RFC as well 18:55 gmcharlt nengard: yes, RFCs should have a corresopnding bug (or bugs, a big RFC could consist of several discrete features) 18:55 LBA nengard: ++ 18:55 nengard so - if you write and rfc report a bug/enhancement and put a link to that on your rfc for the rest of us to help with tracking :) 18:55 thd slef: you can subscribe an email address to specific pages in the wiki and specific bugs in bugzilla for updates. 18:55 chris And rule 2 I won't make many exceptions for 18:55 nengard awesome 18:54 chris Rule 2 makes tracking rfc possible 18:54 hdl nengard: maybe cross reference could be good 18:54 paul_p slef: good question. 18:54 slef ok, so that leaves in-discussion, needs work, help, not for 3.4 and what else? 18:54 chris Yes 18:54 gmcharlt 4. chris will make exceptions if he feels are needed 18:54 wizzyrea and he's also logging his work at http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/ 18:54 nengard would it be helpful if people who put up RFCs include a bug/enhancement for it so that that can be the number associated with them both (rfc and patch) ? 18:54 gmcharlt 3. branches will be merged into master after testing 18:53 gmcharlt 2. a patches should refer to a bug number 18:53 gmcharlt 1. all patches should have at least one signoff before it hits RM (except for trival patches); preferably two, one from QA manager and one from someones 18:53 chris The rest is up to you guys to sort out 18:53 chris I will update any rfcs I have merged code for 18:53 gmcharlt I'll summarize some points from that release plan since chris doesn't have easy copy-and-paste 18:52 slef how can we track status of rfcs? 18:52 chris :) 18:52 chris Follow them and we might hit 6 months 18:52 nengard oops 18:52 nengard http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4 18:52 gmcharlt http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4 18:52 chris Thems the rules 18:52 chris Look for roadmap to 3.4 on the wiki 18:51 chris Ok id paste but it takes too long to find it on the phone 18:51 gmcharlt chris: floor is yours 18:51 gmcharlt moving first to the general update 18:51 gmcharlt Update on 3.4, which has two sub-items 18:51 gmcharlt going twice ... on to the next agenda item 18:51 gmcharlt indeed 18:50 wizzyrea Thanks to HDL for his continued good work on 3.0.x 18:50 gmcharlt going once... 18:50 gmcharlt any questions regarding 3.0.x/3.0.7 ? 18:50 gmcharlt hdl: thanks for the update 18:50 hdl next week 18:50 hdl I have to remove them. 18:49 hdl i realised that some new features BibLibre wrote was mistakenly introduced in 3.0.x repository 18:49 gmcharlt hdl: do you have an ETA? 18:49 Lee :-) Paul 18:49 LBA Lori Ayre, Galecia Group. 18:49 paul_p Paul Poulain, BibLibre, good morning|evening|afternoon|night|whatever everybody ! 18:49 hdl still to be released. 18:49 gmcharlt hdl: the floor is yours 18:49 gmcharlt so on to the next, which is Update on 3.0 18:48 cait perhaps he is not back yet 18:48 gmcharlt we can go back to that agenda item if need be 18:48 chris Yay 18:48 cait he told me he was going to lunch earlier 18:48 gmcharlt if not, I'll relay one thing that chris_n has stated, which is that he intends to release 3.2.1 on 22 November 2010 18:48 fredericd Frédéric Demians, Tamil 18:48 munin chris: chris_n was last seen in #koha 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <chris_n> or does git take care of all of that in a transparent fashion? 18:48 chris @seen chris_n 18:48 gmcharlt chris_n: about? 18:47 Brooke jransom says sorry she's late via twitter 18:47 * owen didn't see chris_n check in 18:47 gmcharlt chris_n: as the 3.2 release maintainer, it's all yours 18:46 gmcharlt the first agenda item is Update on Roadmap to 3.2 18:46 chris Crap at 5% already 18:46 * hdl Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre release Maitainer 3.0 18:46 gmcharlt ok, thanks - newcomers feel free to introduce yourselves as you enter 18:45 * Elwell = Andrew Elwell, Lurker :-) 18:45 * dpk Doug Kingston, English Folk Dance and Song Society, London, UK <dpk@efdss.org> 18:45 * slef = MJ Ray, software.coop 18:45 indradg indradg = Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, India 18:45 * clrh Claire Hernandez I'mnew at Biblibre, France 18:45 robinHome <-- Robin Sheat, Catalyst IT 18:45 pauln Paul Nielsen, Hauraki District Libraries 18:44 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 18:44 * slef = MJ Ray 18:44 Lee Lee Phillips-Butte Public library Montana 18:44 anitsirk = Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT 18:44 Colin Colin Campbell PTFS Europe Ltd 18:44 * cait = Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 18:44 magnus Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 18:44 * chris is chris cormack, catalyst, rm 3.4 18:44 cfouts Clay Fouts, PTFS 18:44 BobB Bob Birchall, Calyx 18:44 irma Irma from CALYX Sydney 18:44 * nengard Nicole C. Engard, ByWater Solutions / Documentation Manager 18:44 * jcamins = Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services 18:44 * sekjal_a : Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions 18:44 brendan brendan = Brendan Gallagher ByWater Solutions 18:44 jwagner_ Jane Wagner, Liblime/PTFS 18:44 wizzyrea < Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Library System 18:44 thd gmcharlt: check my update yesterday to the agenda 18:44 * owen = Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library 18:44 * gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, Equinox 18:44 Lee Weather for Butte, MT - 27°F | °C Current: Cloudy Wind: N at 0 mph Humidity: 62% 18:44 gmcharlt before we start with the agenda proper, let's take a couple minutes for introductions 18:43 gmcharlt the page for the meeting is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_10_November_2010 18:43 slef eta on this train keeps slipping 18:43 gmcharlt I am calling the meeting to order 18:43 thd slef: are you here? 18:43 indradg BobB, you are right 18:43 gmcharlt it is now 19:00 UTC+0 18:43 clrh Hello everybody 18:43 munin magnus: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is -2.0�C (7:50 PM CET on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 51%. Dew Point: -11.0�C. Windchill: -8.0�C. Pressure: 29.47 in 998 hPa (Falling). 18:43 magnus @wunder bodo, norway 18:42 BobB 23 C is cool in kolkata 18:42 Lee hi Irma 18:42 slef hey Lee 18:42 slef it doesn't know the city 18:42 munin indradg: The current temperature in Kolkata, India is 23.0�C (12:20 AM IST on November 11, 2010). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 21.0�C. Pressure: 29.86 in 1011 hPa (Steady). 18:42 indradg @wunder kolkata 18:42 Lee hey Bob B I loved my 3 days in Sydney 18:42 anitsirk good morning irma 18:42 cait hi irma 18:42 munin brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 17.9�C (10:58 AM PST on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 61%. Dew Point: 10.0�C. Pressure: 29.94 in 1013.8 hPa (Steady). Wind Advisory in effect from 3 PM this afternoon to 3 am PST Thursday... 18:42 irma g'day all 18:41 brendan @wunder 93117 18:41 munin gmcharlt: Error: No such location could be found. 18:41 gmcharlt @wunder bristol, england 18:41 * Brooke comforts Bob 18:41 munin cait: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 7.6�C (7:58 PM CET on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Light Drizzle. Humidity: 87%. Dew Point: 6.0�C. Windchill: 8.0�C. Pressure: 29.55 in 1000.6 hPa (Steady). 18:41 anitsirk sunny in wellington (again) 18:41 cait @wunder Konstanz 18:41 munin slef: The current temperature in Bristol Airport, United Kingdom is 2.0�C (6:50 PM GMT on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 75%. Dew Point: -2.0�C. Windchill: 0.0�C. Pressure: 29.65 in 1004 hPa (Steady). 18:41 slef @wunder bristol airport 18:41 munin gmcharlt: Error: No such location could be found. 18:41 gmcharlt @wunder bristol, united kingdom 18:41 BobB Oh well. Day break in the harbour city 18:41 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found. 18:41 slef @wunder bristol, bristol 18:41 magnus hi anitsirk! 18:41 munin BobB: Error: No such location could be found. 18:41 BobB @wunder Sydney 18:41 slef bah 18:40 nengard WOO HOO!! My book has finally arrived!! It flew through JFL no wonder it took so long :) 18:40 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found. 18:40 slef @wunder bristol, united kingdom 18:40 dpk dpk@efdss.org 18:40 Lee MJ hey! 18:40 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found. 18:40 slef @wunder bristol 18:40 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found. 18:40 slef @wunder bristol uk 18:40 robinHome hi hi 18:40 anitsirk hi bob and robin 18:39 slef brr 18:39 Brooke kia ora 18:39 Lee thanks 18:39 BobB Good morning good people. 18:38 Brooke I've linked em to the wiki 18:38 Brooke aye 18:38 anitsirk sorry for being slow in putting videos online. i just started on walter's again as it took ages. i upload them in order. rosalie and lee are online (lee was easy as nengard had already uploaded lee's video). 18:38 Lee hey Cait ;-) 18:36 Lee making a cup of 'white tea" LOL 18:36 nengard gonna grab me some soup for lunch and then back here for the meeting 18:34 indradg hi all 18:34 anitsirk chris: hehe. penny was on the train during the mahara irc meeting last night - went off and continued typing on her laptop while walking. 18:33 Barrc anyone have a quick easy way to remove itemless bibs? 18:33 chris hopefully can get past the 3.4 roadmap, and then ill be at work for the rest :) 18:33 chris and hopefully irc from there if the phone doesnt cut out 18:32 gmcharlt chris++ 18:32 chris im about to catch my bus 18:32 chris no 18:32 anitsirk chris: are you upstairs? 18:32 anitsirk hi chris and jwagner 18:32 chris there we go 18:32 hudsonbot Koha_Master: last build: 135 (9 hr 32 min ago): SUCCESS: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/135/ 18:32 hudsonbot Koha_3.2.x: last build: 25 (3 hr 48 min ago): SUCCESS: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/25/ 18:32 hudsonbot Koha_3.0.x: last build: 2 (10 days ago): FAILURE: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.0.x/2/ 18:32 hudsonbot status of all projects: 18:32 chris !hudson status 18:31 Lee liz the pic i took at Jo's library of you is cute... it will be in the albums for Flickr...okay? 18:31 anitsirk hi magnus 18:31 nengard only if I ever get it 18:30 Lee you can bring your book... 18:30 wizzyrea hi hudson! 18:30 Lee ex-cell-ent! 18:30 nengard i'll schedule surgery around it if drugs don't work :) 18:29 nengard i have you pencilled in - so go ahead and tell the board 18:29 Lee I hope the drugs works...(selfish motives) 18:29 Lee Sooo if you have he week free I will let you know the rest after board meeting next wed. 18:29 nengard maybe longer if the drugs work 18:29 nengard and i talked to doc and he put me on new drugs - so no surgery between now and january at the very least 18:28 nengard k 18:28 Lee BTW Nic talked with Stef and we think Butte in March is a great idea 18:28 cait do you have the video of pual and hdl doing the haka? 18:28 nengard picassa? I found you on flickr? why not flickr? 18:28 nengard hehe 18:28 Lee Just got to picasa will send links to you 18:28 * cait wants pics too 18:27 Lee yup 18:27 nengard ooo 18:27 nengard pics?? :) 18:27 Lee you too Liz 18:27 cait hi lee :) 18:27 Lee I have pics for you 18:27 nengard :) 18:27 Lee Nicole! 18:27 wizzyrea hey lee :) 18:27 nengard Lee!! :) 18:25 anitsirk we miss you here, too. 18:24 wizzyrea woohoo! (dang I miss wgtn) 18:23 anitsirk as well. it's been a very sunny and warm week again in wgtn 18:23 wizzyrea and you? 18:23 wizzyrea good :) 18:23 anitsirk how are you? 18:23 anitsirk hello cait and wizzyrea 18:22 wizzyrea hey kristina 18:22 cait *waves* 18:22 cait hi kristina 18:22 cait I will have to clean them a little bit, I think 2 authorities crept in 18:22 cait ok 18:22 chris cait: the wiki? 18:21 chris gmcharlt: so time :) 18:21 cait where can we store them? 18:21 chris excellent 18:21 cait I have some sample records to test with too 18:21 chris ideally the both one will work, and we can merge that into master 18:21 cait cool :) 18:21 chris then ppl can test them both, or just one or the other 18:21 chris ill make a branch with yours and osslabs work merged (and 2 sep branches) 18:20 chris gmcharlt: me figuring out why it stopped 18:20 cait will try to do that today or tomorrow morning 18:20 cait ok 18:20 chris wouldnt hurt 18:20 cait ah, but perhaps I should rebase first? 18:20 chris i can merge it in 18:20 cait you helped me updating it during kohacon :) 18:19 chris cool 18:19 cait my latest work is up on the repo 18:19 chris yup 18:19 gmcharlt chris: what would it take to get hudsonbot running again? 18:19 cait ok, pull request? 18:19 chris if you can give me a branch to pull from 18:19 chris yes please 18:19 cait do you think it would help to push my work to a branch as well? 18:19 chris i will push the new patch that just came through today to there as well 18:18 cait yep, saw the branch 18:18 chris http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/new/awaiting_qa/analytical_records 18:18 chris cait and anyone else interested 18:16 chris but if i go silent thats why 18:16 chris hopefully it gets enough charge before the bus 18:16 Brooke teh ohnoes 18:16 wizzyrea oof 18:16 chris chris_phone_being_notcharged-- 18:16 wizzyrea infinite_time++ 18:15 * Brooke cheers Chris 18:14 chris i can help you guys to merge, yours plus amits, if you think they are both needed thats certainly possible 18:14 cait hope it will get better... but probably not 18:13 cait it's been all a bit crazy in the last months 18:13 cait and I have another presentation next week to prepare for 18:12 jcamins This is one of the difficulties of having differing priorities at home and at the ANS. 18:12 cait it's a time problem :( 18:12 wizzyrea cool, that's really the only reason I brought it up 18:12 cait too 18:12 cait yeah on mine two 18:12 jcamins Looking at it more is on my to-do list. 18:12 jcamins But I think cait's changes will still be needed. 18:12 jcamins Well, some of the same issues. 18:11 wizzyrea k 18:11 jcamins They address two different issues. 18:11 wizzyrea ah I was wondering if you had looked at them yet, I know you and jcamins are both interested in that 18:10 cait it's on a public repo now, but I should have commented on the rfc earlier 18:10 cait had no time looking at them :( and not sure what will happen with my work on the topic 18:10 cait ya 18:10 wizzyrea ya 18:10 cait about analytics? from Amit then 18:09 wizzyrea cait: did you see those patches from Amit (and/or jcamins) 18:06 nengard or daylight 18:06 nengard stupid saylight savings time 18:06 gmcharlt unless the switch from daylight savings has thrown me off 18:06 nengard thanks 18:06 gmcharlt so I think it is at 14:00 EST 18:06 gmcharlt worldtimeserver.com says that it's currently 18:22 UTC+0 18:01 nengard 45 min? really? I thought it was later - cool I can be there for some of it 17:58 cait :) 17:57 wizzyrea woot galen 17:57 cait gmcharlt: thank you for signing-off on my patch 17:57 Brooke hail to the chief 17:57 gmcharlt if so, I'll be available to chair 17:57 gmcharlt meeting is in 45 minutes, right? 17:48 chris ok, gotta go feed kids, do rubbbish, etc before my bus 17:45 wizzyrea afk, but back in plenty of time for the meeting 17:45 wizzyrea true 17:43 cait a lot of items on the agenda 17:43 cait you will have to very strict with us 17:40 wizzyrea you may not ask again tho >.> 17:40 wizzyrea yea, sure I'll do my best 17:39 slef bbi60 17:39 slef ta 17:37 wizzyrea sec 17:37 wizzyrea let me go look at the agenda 17:37 * wizzyrea wonders if she can channel gmcharlt 17:37 slef chair? 17:36 wizzyrea slef! 17:36 slef wizzyrea! 17:36 wizzyrea gitolite… best name ever. 17:35 slef jcamins? 17:35 sekjal jcamins: don't know about Gitorious, but I'm pretty sure Gitolite does (and that's why git.koha-community.org uses) 17:34 chris heh 17:34 slef chris on a bus. Me on a train. Anyone going for other transport? 17:34 chris any volunteers? 17:34 jcamins slef: Cool, thanks. 17:34 chris it might be a bit hard to chair it 17:34 chris so while i will be at the meeting on irc on my phone 17:33 chris btw, 8am is right when im gonna be on the bus 17:33 chris yep 17:33 slef jcamins; I think both chris and I push to the koha repo there. 17:32 Brooke clearly the solution was to look for mah needlenose nylon plyers 17:32 wizzyrea ? 17:32 Brooke I was looking all over for those 17:32 Brooke OMG mah ivory hearts 17:31 jcamins Heh. I guess so. 17:31 Brooke fine then my hunch that it's just to annoy you was correct :P 17:30 jcamins Brooke: but documents from ILLiad print properly, and without the ridiculous amount of whitespace around the edges that make printing 2-up impossible. 17:29 Brooke so it can print on standard paper? 17:29 jcamins Does Gitorious allow you to set up repositories so that multiple people can push to the individual repository? 17:27 jcamins Why does every document on Ariel always have to be resized to 8.5"x11"? (I know it's not a Koha question, but there's actually a chance that someone here might know) 17:26 * jcamins curses Ariel 17:10 hdl sorry was back reading 17:10 slef hdl: ta. Sekjal wanted one. 17:09 hdl slef: univ_lyon3.biblibre.com is unimarc 17:08 hdl but quite old 17:08 hdl sekjal: koha-fr demo 17:08 hdl Provided that you use git submodule synhc or update... well... quite. 17:08 hdl chris_n: Does git take care of all that in a transparent fashion ? 17:07 hdl chris_n: if we used submodules, then we would basically be maintaining separate repos for each submodule? : yes. 17:03 thd jcamins: see above [spelt correctly this time] 17:03 Brooke poked from sound sleep for IRCery 17:03 Brooke poor kiwis 17:02 jwagner Good -- I have another meeting before then, wanted to make sure I wasn't doubled up. 17:01 thd jamins: I think that the general Koha IRC meeting is in an hour and 45 minutes. 17:01 sekjal I stand corrected 17:01 jwagner The converter on the wiki page said 2:00 ET 17:01 Brooke http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx 17:01 sekjal I have it as 3pm Eastern... but I'm willing to accept my clock got messed up with all the travel and daylight savings 17:00 jwagner meeting is in not quite two hours from now, yes? 16:53 cait hi sekjal :) 16:53 Brooke howdy 16:53 slef all change! bbi 20 16:53 sekjal hi, cait! 16:53 cait hi #koha 16:53 sekjal going to remove all the nodes that aren't linked to, or don't link out 16:52 sekjal slef: next one should be smaller 16:52 slef sekjal: I tried to print one of your interrelation graphs. decided against showing it to users because it's too scary. 16:52 sekjal wizzyrea: great! 16:52 wizzyrea sekjal: biblibre's demo of 3.0.5 is now on the list 16:51 slef this train sounds ill, like it can't get enough power to accelerate 16:50 sekjal no one knows for certain (expect perhaps chris), but hopefully we can get all the gems integrated by April 22 16:49 slef I got asked about that today. Whether all harley code would be in 3.4. I fudged as I'm not sure. 16:49 sekjal the article is about the wiki page for tracking the integration efforts of Harley into Koha 16:48 slef oof 16:48 sekjal PTFS Code Integrated Into Mainline Koha 16:48 slef sekjal: wassat? I have slow web, on trains 16:47 slef jcamins: 2 I think 16:47 slef should we add a "request upgrade" page to "Tools"? 16:47 sekjal very misleading news headling in the Koha Planet section of www.koha-fr.org 16:47 wizzyrea but I will add it — yup, unimarc 16:47 jcamins Oh, right, meeting in an hour? 16:46 slef anyone tell if it's unimarc? 16:46 wizzyrea 3.00.05.001 16:46 slef unavoidable :-/ 16:46 wizzyrea there's one listed there ya 16:45 slef bah, I'm going to be in a notspot for 5mins during today's meeting 16:45 slef sure they uised to have one... not on http://www.koha-fr.org/ ? 16:45 sekjal slef: that would be my first thought, yes, but it's not on the wiki page 16:44 wizzyrea I don't see a demo on their site anywhere 16:44 slef sekjal: biblibre? 16:43 slef if it works, I'll start using them on client libs next week or two 16:43 sekjal does anyone know of a UNIMARC demo out there? I'm only seeing MARC21 on the wiki 16:42 sekjal slef: right on! 16:42 wizzyrea ty kindly 16:42 slef wizzyrea: ok 16:40 wizzyrea slef: please add it to the wiki at http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Demo_Databases so I can pull it into the website 16:39 slef sekjal: I'm going to do the same with our demo soon. 16:29 chris_n or does git take care of all of that in a transparent fashion? 16:28 chris_n hdl: if we used submodules, then we would basically be maintaining separate repos for each submodule? 16:23 chris_n hey hdl 16:16 sekjal hi, hdl 16:16 hdl hi Brooke and all 16:15 sekjal k 16:15 wizzyrea might take a minute to show for you since you're not logged in (it's cached) 16:15 sekjal I've got a bit of a hack in place right now 16:15 sekjal the primary draw is that the debian packages make restoring much easier 16:14 sekjal thanks, wizzyrea! 16:14 wizzyrea up 2 u really 16:14 wizzyrea done 16:14 Brooke Noswaith dda 16:14 sekjal I'm thinking of switching the demo over to run off the debian packages 16:13 Brooke yeah, some ratbag pestered Bywater to upgrade, and they did in like 10 seconds. 16:13 sekjal k 16:13 wizzyrea :) 16:13 wizzyrea no, I like 3.2 16:13 sekjal I can get you an exact version number if that'd be helpful 16:13 sekjal thanks! 16:13 wizzyrea t 16:13 wizzyrea k I'll fix i 16:12 sekjal the bywater demo is now running 3.2; website still says 3.01.00.143 16:12 wizzyrea i closed all my tabs. I feel a bit naked. 16:12 wizzyrea sup? 16:11 wizzyrea yep 16:11 sekjal wizzyrea: around? 15:59 Brooke cheers cait 15:58 kf and time to leave - goodbye all 15:58 kf hi hdl 15:57 Brooke bonjour, flying frenchman! 15:50 chris_n it works afaik 15:50 chris_n Brooke: nope 15:50 nengard howdy Brooke and all #koha 15:47 * Brooke salutes nengard with respect. 15:38 * magnus gotta make dinner - see y'all for the meeting! 15:38 Brooke thought it was disabled 15:38 chris_n sorry 15:37 chris_n bugzilla 15:37 kf what is BZ? 15:37 kf but I have to go and get some rest now before the meeting - d... cold 15:37 chris_n need I mention that BZ has a voting system 15:37 kf don't make it too complicated 15:37 sekjal this is another usecase for a community voting system 15:37 Brooke yep check box for sounds cool to me 15:37 chris_n well, even a simple "I concur" would be a step 15:36 kf where you can add a ++ ;) 15:36 kf perhaps we just need a section: supporting as laid out... 15:36 kf that's my problem too 15:36 kf yep 15:36 sekjal kf: I know that I feel a little awkward commenting if I have nothing useful to add, and often the RFCs are pretty good as laid out 15:35 magnus kf: that's what i'm thinking too - tacit agreement... 15:35 kf I am not sure 15:35 kf perhaps we don't have so much discussion, because we don't have many questions, or because the proposed features seem ok to us 15:34 kf and I feel guilty too, because I have not commented on the rfc's - asked questions 15:34 kf I think that's the problem where we started? 15:34 cfouts meeting today is at 11am Pacific, yes? 15:34 kf we are talking a lot about how to make a rfc the right way - but still not talking about the existing ones 15:34 Brooke which is prolly way better than what most call me ;) 15:32 cfouts better than what some have called me ;) 15:32 brendan cfouts that is 15:32 brendan heh 15:32 brendan heya cgouts 15:32 chris_n heya cfouts 15:31 cfouts good day 15:31 sekjal and g'morning, cfouts 15:31 brendan morning sekjal 15:31 sekjal morning, brendan 15:30 brendan morning 15:26 wizzyrea short description, link to fulltext. 15:25 wizzyrea sponsored status 15:25 wizzyrea expected date. version. All that needs to be in the bug is the link to the wiki 15:24 wizzyrea when I say nuts and bolts, I mean things that bz already asks for 15:22 Brooke and arguably from a long term quality standpoint, as well 15:21 Brooke it matters from a usability standpoint 15:21 wizzyrea why not keep the nuts and bolts of it in bz 15:21 * Brooke thinks that the user stands a better chance of seeing their enhancement through the more effort one puts into the process, but admits that "improper" procedure is better than no flow of information. 15:21 wizzyrea question: why does it matter, if all that is in the wiki RFC is the narrative of the feature? 15:20 magnus Brooke: not that I know of, but it should be possible to pull the info into the wiki 15:20 * chris_n doesn't think we can get away from enh bugs for RFC's 15:20 Brooke magnus- is there an automated way to sync the information? 15:19 magnus chris_n: that sounds like a lot of work - you'd need to keep the info synced too - better to keep it in one place, methinks 15:18 chris_n that might add a level of abstraction for the fearful, yet ensure the process was still followed 15:18 chris_n magnus: i wonder if the form could be setup to post relevant info to an associated bug in BZ upon posting to the wiki? 15:17 Brooke *nod* 15:17 magnus anyway, i think a form would be friendlier then the plain ol' template for adding RFCs to the wiki - and the template already duplicates info that should be in bugzilla... 15:15 thd Brooke: the default in my head has always been AND. 15:15 kf thx 15:14 magnus libbusiness-isbn-perl ? 15:14 kf ? 15:14 kf what was the perl package on ubuntu to fix Can't locate Business/ISBN.pm 15:14 kf hmpf 15:11 Brooke is there an automated way of deduplicating like RFCs? 15:09 wizzyrea please, if you want to add something, do. 15:09 wizzyrea linking to all of the existing documentation 15:09 wizzyrea That is what I feel this page is for http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/ 15:09 Brooke at least I think it is 15:08 Brooke it's getting better chris 15:08 Brooke bollocks. it was bowling pins, but the box smelt like chocolate and coffee. 15:08 chris_n the real "challenge" here is getting folks to actually *use* whatever system... and for starters they have to take time to find and read the existing docs 15:08 wizzyrea so certainly it could be made better. 15:08 wizzyrea I know for a fact that the RFC template was literally a 5 minute job. 15:06 magnus s/thing/things/ 15:06 braedon|h you can take our lives, but you can never take our boolean preference! 15:06 Brooke I must know what's inside!!!1 15:05 magnus chris_n: well put - i'm not really in favor of moving thing from bugzilla or replicating information - just making the wiki "better" 15:05 * Brooke can't take this good smelling box anymore. 15:05 chris_n Brooke: the problem is, low-level logic circuits are usually hard-wired 15:05 * kf hides 15:05 * kf is a bit scared of having Brooke messing with her head 15:05 Brooke I'd change the default in people's heads from OR to AND 15:04 wizzyrea definitely the template could be improved. 15:04 Brooke If I could do one thing to this community 15:04 Brooke *nod* 15:04 chris_n not so much as a rework of the in-place procedure 15:04 * chris_n read magnus' suggestion as an improvement to the layout and clarity of the wiki part of an RFC post 15:03 kf chris_n: know I now what it wrong - my dates 15:02 * wizzyrea remembers this discussion from kohacon 2 years ago 15:02 wizzyrea which is supposedly what we're supposed to be doing now. 15:02 kf chris_n: I offered to help - now I have to live with it ;) 15:01 wizzyrea I would create a bug with the right status, and the exact same title as your RFC on the wiki, then link it to your fulltext on the wiki. 15:00 chris_n arachnophobia, rather 14:59 chris_n kf: tnx for the help 14:59 chris_n but then there are those who have acrophobia or some other bug-phobia which biases them against bugzilla 14:59 kf will figure it out 14:59 kf chris_n: Ithink it's my configuration... something is still missing 14:59 magnus chris_n: yep, but wouldn't create a page in the wiki 14:58 chris_n so if the RFC was entered as a bug it could then automatically show in the wiki 14:58 chris_n well it sounds like the plugin magnus references would work to update the wiki from bugzilla 14:57 Brooke I think the bar is access. If you don't give a snot about your users, post solely to bugzilla. If you do, duplicate information in friendly formats, then funnel to a developer preferred locale. 14:57 chris_n kf: it generates messages, but includes $0.00 for all fines regardless of their true value 14:56 chris_n "Provide reports easy for non-techies to read." 14:56 kf thx :) 14:56 kf chris_n: when you said it didn't work for you - did it still create the messages or was that broken too? 14:55 * chris_n passes kf more fudge 14:55 magnus chris_n: dunno 14:55 kf ok, I have fines but no entries in message_queue... hmpf! 14:55 magnus chris_n: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Bugzilla_Reports (if you didn't see it already) 14:55 chris_n magnus: could such a setup as you are proposing be made to post to bugzilla automagically? 14:55 braedon|h Brooke: a good playlist is so much more than the sum of its parts! 14:55 magnus and the wiki allows for collaborative editing... 14:54 sekjal I vote Wave-in-a-Box! 14:54 sekjal neither system is quite right, but the wiki is closer 14:54 chris_n but keeping the two in sync appears to be an issue 14:54 wizzyrea why do just one? 14:54 * chris_n thinks that is the question 14:54 wizzyrea I think it should be on the wiki, with an entry in bugzilla pointing to it 14:54 magnus i think one question is: should the meat of an RFC be on bugzilla or in mediawiki? 14:53 sekjal well, it would be a good exercise in Template Toolkit to write a new interface to Bugzilla that's more librarian-friendly for searching/adding/editing enhancement requests 14:52 wizzyrea there's no reason you couldn't embed the rss feed for those searches into the wiki. 14:52 * chris_n imagines a bugzilla plug-in for wikimedia 14:51 wizzyrea the prior contention was that the bugzilla phobic need to get over it. 14:51 Brooke true, but it would allow the bugzilla phoebic to avoid bugzilla 14:51 wizzyrea again, it hinges on people actually using it 14:51 wizzyrea sekjal, magnus, and chris_n: we kind of use bugzilla for what you're proposing using mediawiki for, and there's a page that lists everything listed as enhancement, and what the status is: http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/ 14:51 Brooke life's too short bro 14:50 Brooke one two skip a few 14:50 Brooke pfft 14:50 braedon|h my eternal dilemma with playlists and albums - skip a song i hate, or endure to preserve the experience in its entirety 14:50 * Brooke should have nicked Ema's CD when she had the chance... 14:48 braedon|h (my least favorite NZ band) 14:47 braedon|h ooo, but it has minuit :( 14:47 wizzyrea note: not MY koha hacking playlist, it's Chris's 14:47 Brooke hai 14:47 wizzyrea woot 14:47 braedon|h i belive so, thanks 14:46 wizzyrea does this work? 14:46 wizzyrea http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/playlist/Koha+Hacking/8190140 14:45 * owen is a mashup fan 14:45 * braedon|h has spent the last 2 hours listening to random mashups, rather than sleeping 14:44 wizzyrea I will have to find it, one sec 14:44 braedon|h wizzyrea: link? 14:43 sekjal wizzyrea: nice! this album is almost finished, so I'll try to tune in next 14:43 wizzyrea chris has a koha hacking playlist on grooveshark 14:43 * wizzyrea just read the backlog...wow 14:11 Brooke catastrophic: you're a flaming wreck now :P 14:10 * druthb tries to picture Brooke "caterwauling", and fails the roll. 14:09 * Brooke is caterwauling to showtunes 14:07 druthb hi, Brooke. :) 14:06 Brooke :) 14:06 magnus yo Brooke 14:05 kf chris_n: testing it with my older version first, then updating to master and testing again 14:05 sekjal morning, Brooke 14:04 Brooke yo 13:57 * sekjal is only 4 sips into is first cup of coffee, and may be a little sleep-silly 13:57 kf I am working on it right now :) sorry that it took so long 13:57 kf oki 13:57 chris_n please 13:56 chris_n kf: correct 13:56 sekjal magnus: we'd just have to learn to write musically 13:56 chris_n yes 13:56 kf and your patch didn't work? so just test it again with master? 13:56 kf about fines in notices: you tested with master and it didn't work, right? 13:56 magnus hehe, i guess it shouldn't be too hard - but making it sound like anything other than noise? ;-) 13:56 kf N = n 13:56 kf hi chris_N 13:55 chris_n hi kf 13:55 jcamins Nifty! 13:55 sekjal and represent each speaker with a different instrument, Peter and the Wolf-style 13:54 sekjal convert each character or series of characters into a note 13:54 kf reading the koha code? 13:54 sekjal magnus: Oh! text2music! 13:54 magnus sekjal: text2speach irc bot? 13:53 kf chris_n: around? 13:53 sekjal good music... maybe some news every now and again 13:52 owen Along with an RM and a QA we'd need a DJ 13:52 jcamins sekjal: what would it play? 13:51 sekjal crazy idea: a #koha internet radio station 13:49 sekjal hi, kf! 13:49 kf hi sekjal :) 13:48 sekjal hi, jcamins! 13:48 * owen doesn't know who "etc" entails exactly 13:48 jcamins Hi owen, sekjal, and kf 13:48 sekjal and good morning, #koha 13:48 sekjal morning, owen 13:48 kf hi owen 13:48 owen Hi sekjal, #koha, etc. 13:44 kf gmcharlt++ :) 13:43 kf thx gmcharlt 13:19 druthb my little Eee is dandy for checking email, surfing the web, Skype and such, but I wouldn't try to do any serious dev work on it. I'd like to buy me a much better lappy, just haven't yet. 13:16 druthb There are plenty for about $250 bucks that have 1 GB RAM and the Atom N450 processor; that'd work, too. 13:15 druthb (And Easy Peasy's latest release is a pleasure to use, too, and easy to install.) 13:15 jcamins druthb: that's not a netbook! That's a laptop replacement! 13:15 druthb If you got a netbook with at least a gig, and more disk space, it should be fine, though it might be a little bit slow. The ones I'm seeing around right now with 160GB drives and 2GB of RAM would be fine. 13:15 magnus jcamins: shouldn't be too hard as long as you don't need "online resources", like doing a z39.50 search? 13:14 jcamins Apparently that's such a horrifying thought I scared away jwagner? 13:12 * jcamins is thinking about how to test new Koha features during "downtime" on the train, etc. 13:05 druthb A more up-to-date netbook would have no particular trouble, I don't imagine, running any of the Debian-derived OSes for netbooks. I had to mount a 2 GB SD card to have enough disk space; those things are creepy-slow, which did not help. 13:04 druthb The installation went normally for a Debian install-on-a-new-box, no trouble at all. 13:04 jcamins Heh. I think I probably won't be trying it, then. 13:03 druthb It was running a very early release of Easy Peasy, which is Ubuntu on an extreme diet. 13:02 druthb I wouldn't call it running, precisely...walking, very slowly, perhaps. The netbook in question is an Asus EEE 900A, with (at that time) half-a-gig of RAM, and a 4 GB SSHD. Not a lot of elbow room. 13:01 jcamins How did it work? 13:01 druthb That would be me, yes. 13:01 jcamins druthb: do I recall correctly that jwagner said you got Koha running on a netbook? 13:01 druthb good morning, jcamins. :) 12:57 jcamins Good morning, #koha 12:54 druthb hi, kf! :) 12:54 kf hi druthb :) 12:52 druthb hi, magnus! 12:52 magnus hi druthb 12:21 nengard morning kf and thd 12:20 thd Hello kf 12:19 kf hi nengard :) 12:19 kf hi thd :) 12:19 thd Good morning nengard 09:45 kf koha is not so interesting for most of them ;) 09:45 kf slef: no, will show photos of the road trip probably 09:44 slef hrmph. now I'm back in the uk, the cell drops ssh connections when moving from 3g to 2g :-/ 09:43 slef kf: cool. any tips? 09:39 kf slef: my turn is on tuesday :) 09:38 * slef rereads nengard's blog posts 09:38 * slef off to present koha and kohacon10 09:38 slef hi hdl kf 09:18 kf hi slef *waves* 09:14 hdl Hi slef 09:14 hdl how are you ? 09:14 hdl hi miguelxer 09:09 slef bbl 09:09 slef oops... didn't think anyone would still be using our redirect 09:02 magnus hi hdl 09:02 hdl hi magnus 08:57 munin New commit(s) kohagit: bug 5380: remove copy-and-paste from authorities/detail.pl <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c794d1af77879134ab0e84198d3827625384e70> 08:42 ivanc hi magnus 08:31 magnus hiya ivanc 08:31 ivanc hi #koha 08:29 paul_p tiens un belge. 'morning saorge_ ! 08:29 magnus bon jour paul_p 08:28 paul_p hello magnus 08:26 magnus god morgen, kf :-) 08:26 kf guten morgen magnus :) 08:17 kf hi paul 08:13 paul_p kf, 'morning germany 08:11 kf hi #koha 08:02 paul_p evening chris 08:02 chris hi paul_p 07:58 paul_p good morning everybody 07:17 cait bye #koha 06:43 munin New commit(s) kohagit: bug 5372: identify empty field in authority record correctly <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=daabd936d6cb13bd680652da5a32fd1ce354684a> 06:40 cait still have the notices thigns to test 06:40 chris im doing some testing now 06:40 chris is ready for some secondary testing if you get bored :) 06:40 chris http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/new/biblibre_reports 06:38 cait :) 06:36 chris yay! 06:26 cait and now it works :) yay! 06:25 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5003 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, NEW, Can not search for organisation by name 06:25 cait rebasing my patch for bug 5003 :) 06:24 chris heh 06:24 cait can't work 06:24 cait hm stupid me.. testing my patch with German templates... 06:16 kmkale hi chris 06:13 cait hi chris 06:12 chris evening 05:41 cait hi kmkale 05:41 kmkale morning cait 05:41 cait good morning #koha 05:41 cait gmcharlt++ 05:30 kmkale ronald: standar mysql dump on suse and restore on ubuntu? 05:26 ronald can anyone point me to some tips on how i can move my koha 2.29 database from open suse to my new ubuntu server? 04:54 hdl will try to sleep a little more 04:47 hdl I am quite tired by jet lag... 04:46 kmkale hi hdl 04:46 hdl hi kmkale 04:45 hdl wasabi: just good whatever. night evening, morning. 04:45 hdl hi wasabi nothing special. 04:41 kmkale HI ALL 04:17 wasabi whatsup? 04:17 wasabi heya hdl 04:07 hdl anyone there ? 04:07 hdl hi 03:01 brendan_l night jcamins_a 03:00 jcamins Good night, #koha 03:00 * jcamins is going to get some sleep too 02:50 jcamins Cool, I didn't know we had RFC documentation. 02:44 chris night 02:44 wizzyrea_ later chris_n 02:43 chris_n g'night 02:43 * chris_n heads off to sleep too 02:42 Brooke I'm officially punchy 02:42 * chris_n is learning about char limits on irc topic lines 02:41 Brooke k 02:41 chris heh 02:41 chris_n :-) 02:41 chris_n and once more for good measure 02:41 Brooke ah spam! Baninate! ;) 02:37 reva ok jcamins.I am at home, and have limited bandwidth. So wanted to capitalize on the mibbit chat here to bookmark. 02:31 jcamins If you Google "Ubuntu support," that'll get you to it also. 02:31 Brooke http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/chat 02:30 reva wizzyrea, I lost the link you gave for the chat channel when I went off chat for a bit there; could you give me the link again? Thanks in advance. 02:28 reva I am reading the results.Will be back tomorrow morning after trying. Thanks all for the helpful hints. 02:27 chris :) 02:26 reva The things they think of. 02:26 reva ok, thanks. I love it. I can send it to my counterpart when I have returned to the US. 02:25 chris http://lmgtfy.com/ 02:24 reva oops lost you for a sec there. That was a cool link, it types in the searches by itself, what is that, chris? 02:22 jcamins chris++ 02:22 chris http://tinyurl.com/2bbo6qt 02:22 jcamins reva: I meant, you can try that search, and see if someo of the suggestions help. 02:21 reva Ok jcamins, I am all ears.:) 02:21 reva The solution I followed before and did not succeed this time is the October 16 entry on this page: http://mizstik.com/projects/koha-livecd/comment-page-3/#comments. Was hoping may be there may be an Ubuntu expert here. Thanks for all the help. 02:21 jcamins reva: I just Googled "network troubleshooting ubuntu," and it brought up some results. 02:18 reva ok, I will try the link wizzyrea. Thanks. 02:18 wizzyrea_ i'd take it up with the ubuntu folks 02:17 reva Ok, I followed the solution I found and shared it with the Live CD developer for 3.0.6 running on Ubuntu 10.04. But that is not solving the issue with 10.10. 02:16 reva The 3.2 Live CD had no problem when I tested it on VirtualBox; only when I installed it in the hard disk partition. wizzyrea. 02:16 wizzyrea_ their channels are all on freenode 02:16 wizzyrea_ http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/chat 02:15 wizzyrea_ and you need to assign a static 02:15 reva Is there a chat channel for them you recommend, jcamins? 02:15 wizzyrea_ i'm guessing you have the same problem that you had before 02:15 jcamins I would encourage you to try troubleshooting this on Ubuntu fora. 02:15 reva Sorry, that was supposed to be Brooke. 02:15 jcamins reva: this is not a Koha issue. 02:14 reva Hi Brook. Are you new here in Koha-community chat? 02:14 reva hi good evening anyone awake. I have installed Koha 3.2 Live CD.It is running on Ubuntu 10.10; I am not able to connect to the internet. Localhost is fine. Any networking experts have solutions? Had similar issues running 3.0.6 through Live CD on Ubuntu10.04. Solved using static address in network configuration. 02:11 Brooke hi reva 02:11 Brooke but I've to find a chocolatier 02:11 chris http://galencharlton.com/blog/?p=69 02:11 wizzyrea_ what is the lofty goal? 02:11 Brooke yeah he needs chocolate 02:10 chris gmcharlt++ 02:10 wizzyrea_ lol 02:10 Brooke however, like a well trained monkey with a typewriter, I can be lucid in certain formats. 02:10 wizzyrea_ relax, we understand joo 02:09 Brooke trying to comprehend me is hopeless 02:09 * jcamins_a considers trying to comprehend the scrollback, then concludes it's hopeless. 02:09 chris send patches early and often 02:09 chris and add 02:09 chris yes 02:09 * chris_n thinks his 3 point RFC workflow outline sums it up 02:09 wizzyrea_ that depends on what the lofty goal is you're trying to achieve I think 02:09 chris if ppl think its a good idea, they'll follow it, if not ... ah well, you tried :) 02:08 chris ie, just do it 02:08 chris planning is fine, talking about planning im bored of 02:08 Brooke (though I could have said 5 years to construct the plan, but that would be mean.) 02:08 wizzyrea_ english...failing... there's a word that i'm thinking of that isn't coming out of my brain 02:08 Brooke hai 02:08 wizzyrea_ 5 years for the duration of the plan? 02:07 Brooke 5 years seem like a logical time frame for planning? Or should I tighten that up given our breakneck release pace? (Though that would increase the number of chairs tossed my way at the suggestion of planning.) 02:02 wizzyrea_ though it doesn't say why 02:02 wizzyrea_ http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/ 02:00 chris :-) 02:00 * Brooke can feel a long range plan a comin' 01:59 Brooke it'll be done by Friday 01:59 Brooke so unless 80 bajillion people get back to me on thursday night 01:59 Brooke on the sunny side, I compiled the word data into a preliminary tag cloud 01:57 Brooke http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4 01:56 wizzyrea_ even if only to the RFC category >.> 01:56 wizzyrea_ that's good feedback actually, there should be a spot for RFC's on there, and I'll add a link. 01:56 * wizzyrea_ catches up on the list 01:55 wizzyrea_ oh... i see 01:55 chris heh 01:55 Brooke there's no OR operator in there 01:54 Brooke division of labour means I can document about documenting documentation while you work on shtuff 01:54 wizzyrea_ well if there is something you would like to do to the site, i'm happy to help >.> 01:54 wizzyrea_ lol 01:54 chris whoops did i say that out loud 01:54 Brooke I think I caught a bad case of snark from Chris 01:53 Brooke damn it 01:53 chris because thats far more productive than just doing shit 01:53 * wizzyrea_ likes blowing things up 01:53 chris im documenting how to document documenting documents about documenting 01:53 Brooke I are meeting in sekrut 01:53 Brooke shhhhh 01:53 wizzyrea_ what are we blowing up? 01:53 chris heh 01:52 * Brooke is concentrating on messing up the wiki THEN blowing up the site 01:52 chris yup 01:52 Brooke and some of it is on the site 01:52 Brooke I just think it requires better linking 01:52 Brooke not sure it requires another page. I'll have to reread it when I'm more alert 01:51 chris :) 01:51 chris apparently i have to talk about talking about talking about rfc 01:51 chris im not allowed to 01:50 Brooke don't make me tell you to get back in your cube and develop! *duck* 01:50 * chris is snarky today 01:49 chris you gonna make a wiki page with what lori took the time to write an email about, instead of taking the time to make the page ? :-) 01:33 Brooke I'm used to cryptic, yet strangely forgiving drupal 01:33 chris heh 01:32 Brooke now I have to be careful 01:32 Brooke pffft 01:32 chris like categories etc 01:32 chris you cant move special pages 01:31 Brooke apparently it depends on what I view 01:31 Brooke hmm 01:31 chris and are you logged in? 01:31 chris what page you looking at 01:31 Brooke no tab for me! 01:31 chris goes page discussion edit history move watch 01:30 Brooke :/ 01:30 chris next to history 01:30 chris along the top 01:29 Brooke where's the move/rename tab on the wiki? 01:29 chris wb Brooke 01:28 Brooke howdy