Time Nick Message 22:44 jwagner And now I'm going to go have an evening :-) G'night all. 22:43 jwagner Anyway, wanted to pass that on fyi. 22:41 jwagner I'd suggest writing it up as a concept and maybe putting it on the listserv so people who actually use the report can get a feel for how it might work. 22:40 jwagner I'm not clear enough on the day-to-day workflow to know if your proposed solution could work in a multilibrary setup. 22:40 pianohack That's a doable adaptation; store it in a hidden syspref for non-independent branches (global for the entire system) and on a table column for independentbranches 22:39 jwagner The one where the main branch runs it, yes. That's a single system with multiple branches. 22:39 pianohack jwagner: That one site you mentioned must have independentbranches off, then 22:36 jwagner Others probably do run it by branch. 22:35 jwagner It might get a little complicated for multilibrary sites -- I think you do need to run it by some of them as a proposal first. For instance, at one of my sites, the main branch runs the report for all branches and tells the others what to put in transit. So limiting the report to that branch wouldn't work for them. 22:34 pianohack jwagner: Yes, I am. What's up? 22:34 jwagner Hey, pianohack -- meant to catch up with you earlier. Are you still looking at that holds to pull mod? 22:10 reed just musing further on Auckland airport arrivals -- it always puts me in a happy mood, cute beagles catching people with oranges, just got off the prison plane -- contrast to the other direction, arriving in america - lot's of cops with guns and so many young soldiers in transit 21:43 chris night cait 21:43 cait good night all 21:37 chris yeah cute little beagles 21:36 slef chambawamba! 21:34 munin gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. Quote #84 added. 21:34 gmcharlt @quote add <slef> combined customs+petting zoo? 21:34 slef combined customs+petting zoo? 21:33 reed but they'll get you 21:33 reed the biosecurity dogs are very cute tho 21:32 slef ow! Cadel has a cracked elbow 21:31 slef the medicine/prescription-required thing is making me boggle but nz isn't alone on that 21:31 chris liv tyler famously got fined for an apple 21:30 * collum smiles at the thought of meatloaf tax. 21:28 slef I'll probably only hae geobars or something like that 21:28 chris i always take somethign to declare 21:28 chris plus the declare line is faster 21:28 wizzyrea argle! 21:28 chris if you dont declare it, you get the fine 21:28 chris if you declare, chances are they will look and say, thats fine 21:28 wizzyrea declare the crumbs in your backpack? 21:28 chris declare everything 21:28 rhcl We have strawberries and cheese from some leftover group event yesterday. 21:28 slef for cereals too? 21:27 wizzyrea :D 21:27 chris the sniffer dogs will find it 21:27 atz ouch 21:27 chris per item 21:27 chris its not worth the $250 instant fine 21:27 wizzyrea I think I could reproduce it in NZ, with local stuff, no prob. 21:27 chris seriously, if you ahve food, declare it 21:27 chris worse slef 21:27 slef wizzyrea: bring some to nz, get done for biosecurity (if it's like uk) 21:26 * wizzyrea yawns 21:25 gmcharlt ;) 21:25 gmcharlt rhcl: too much fiber 21:25 slef rhcl: that's your problem. 21:25 jwagner I trust the cats aren't on the menu! 21:25 rhcl Are they good to eat? 21:25 wizzyrea slef: you haven't had my meatloaf ;) 21:25 gmcharlt I have three cats in my office 21:25 wizzyrea slef: :P 21:25 rhcl Somebody needs to invent a remotely controlled combination microwave/refrigerator. 21:24 slef wizzyrea: two out of three ain't bad 21:24 * jwagner tries to envision meatloaf on wheels 21:24 wizzyrea I have meatloaf waiting for me, which sounds pedestrian, but I assure you, it's not. 21:24 jwagner Depends on how much energy it takes for me to walk into the kitchen & stare into the fridge :-) 21:24 atz slef: indeed, both 21:24 slef atz: by conduct 21:23 rhcl Pigs. I like pigs. 21:23 slef Chalk pops 21:23 atz by consensus, i think we're adjourned 21:23 jwagner Pork chops, I think... 21:23 chris nope 21:23 rhcl So huh, watcha having for supper? I'm an omnivore... 21:23 gmcharlt ok, thanks everybody 21:23 * jwagner is ready for supper 21:23 slef zzzz 21:22 slef not here 21:22 atz i think we've tapped out this meeting 21:22 gmcharlt ok - since this meeting has gone over two hours at this point - are there any procedural matters that urgently need to be disussed now? 21:21 collum +1 21:21 thd +1 with jwagner's amendment 21:21 slef +1 21:21 davi explicit confirmation better IMHO 21:21 Colin +1 21:21 jwagner +1 21:21 gmcharlt jwagner: would be reconfirmed by that point, but yes 21:21 davi +1 21:21 jwagner Maybe with the voting method confirmed then too? 21:20 gmcharlt and as a possible final administrative item - time fo vote to be confirmed at next general meeting 21:20 Colin +1 21:20 slef 0 21:20 collum +1 21:19 chris +1 on those dates 21:19 gregb +1 21:19 jwagner +1 21:19 wizzyrea +1 21:19 thd +1 21:19 davi +1 (4 weeks is OK to me) 21:19 gmcharlt jwagner: that would make two, today - I better not :) 21:19 atz that should be plenty of time 21:19 * jwagner asks if gmcharlt can haz cheezburger? :-) 21:19 davi +1 21:18 gmcharlt September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 19 September (four week voting period) 21:18 gmcharlt err (I can do math good today) 21:18 slef I don't mind on dates... all suck but 3 weeks take the edge off. 21:18 gmcharlt September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 12 September (four week voting period) 21:17 davi no comment 21:17 gmcharlt heh 21:17 slef davi is the new gmcharlt for joetho 21:17 joetho <--shutting up 21:16 joetho whoops I thought that was galen's item 21:16 davi or similar 21:16 joetho ok, +1 21:16 davi Maybe September 11 (start),, 1 October (end) would be a lot better 21:16 gmcharlt let me try again 21:15 gmcharlt I was looking at wrong month on calendar 21:15 jwagner thd raises a good point though -- I seem to remember that lots of European countries go on vacation in August. 21:15 gmcharlt oops 21:15 joetho whoops, that is just a plain (+1) for me 21:15 slef 0 21:15 slef let next GM modify if needed? 21:15 jwagner +1 21:14 joetho +1+1 21:14 Colin +1 21:14 collum +1 21:14 thd Did we not want to catch people who are not on holliday for the whole of August? 21:14 brendan +1 21:14 slef provisionally? 21:14 chris +1 21:14 davi +1 21:14 gmcharlt and end September 1? 21:14 atz seconded 21:13 gmcharlt shall we set the start of the vote period to Monday, AUgust 11? 21:13 slef ;-) 21:13 slef so please discuss early next week if you can 21:13 gmcharlt if we allow for some overlap 21:13 * atz nod 21:13 slef any more I'm unpredictable 21:13 gmcharlt i.e., 7/23 or so 21:12 gmcharlt that would be ~2 weeks 21:12 gmcharlt with selecting the ballot system and preparing the ballot itself 21:12 thd if slef is available slef is available. 21:12 slef 2-weeks is just ok, s it turns out 21:12 thd nevermind 21:12 slef no, I'm OK 21:12 chris for the 7 people who readit 21:11 chris vote or not, ill be publicising the vote on my blog :) 21:11 atz thd: ? 21:11 thd If the 1-2 weeks starts now slef stated previously he would be mostly absent. 21:11 atz thd: in point of fact, no we don't need a system before annnouncing. 21:11 thd gmcharlt: Yes that is my point. 21:10 gmcharlt thd: ballot system was discussed above; outcome is that it will be discussed on koha ML for 1-2 weeks 21:10 atz thd: yes and no. it doesn't really change anything from here. we still will pick the method via the list. 21:09 thd atz: yes, but we need a ballot system before announcing the vote. 21:09 atz i think that's fair 21:09 jwagner I'm all for encouraging the discussion, just in a separate context 21:09 jwagner With that clarification, OK 21:09 davi ack 21:09 atz this wasn't about discussion, it's about *annoucing* the vote. 21:08 thd Do we have a deadline for choosing the voting system etc. remembering that slef will be absent later this month? 21:08 davi I disagree, because encouraging discussion can not be a bad thing 21:07 atz placement in koha newsletter. (full stop) 21:07 * atz suggests strike the whole latter clause 21:06 davi jwagner++ 21:06 jwagner s/interested parties/Koha stakeholders for consistency 21:06 davi "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want, for example blogs" 21:06 jwagner gmcharlt, yes, that I can agree with. 21:05 thd +1 21:05 atz this is "hear ye, hear ye! a koha vote shall be taken!" 21:05 gmcharlt but I'm more interested in ensuring that everybody who has an interest is aware that the vote is taking place in the first place 21:05 chris not the issues 21:05 davi jwagner++ 21:05 chris publicising the vote 21:05 chris its about the vote 21:05 jwagner gmcharlt, ? 21:05 gmcharlt discussion is needed, of course 21:05 atz at which point, i think it doesn't mean anything 21:05 slef waits to see if gmcharlt amends 21:05 gmcharlt jwagner: I'm actually driving at something slightly different 21:04 jwagner I'd say something like "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want" 21:04 gmcharlt item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on koha-community.org; placement in koha newsletter, and encouraging to all Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally 21:04 Colin in place of asking can we say encouraging? 21:04 jwagner Yes, I don't object to the discussions & blogs, just to tying it into the formal motion 21:03 davi to form an opinion in voters 21:03 davi It is part of the education and discussion process 21:03 chris but i cant spelt it 21:03 chris i can understand why not nessecary 21:03 davi I think asking people to blog about it is desirable, but not a must 21:03 chris why not desirable 21:02 jwagner 0 (don't think asking people to blog about it is necessary/desirable) 21:02 slef 0 (don't think "well known" is clear, but not vital) 21:02 Colin +1 21:02 thd +1 21:02 chris_n +1 21:02 collum +1 21:02 atz +1 # certainly sufficient 21:02 chris +1 21:01 davi +1 21:01 gmcharlt item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on koha-community.org; placement in koha newsletter, and request to all "well known" Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally 21:01 rhcl +1 21:01 sekjal I must also go. cheers, all 21:00 slef tajoli: /quit 21:00 wizzyrea +1 21:00 slef 0 21:00 collum +1 21:00 thd +1 20:59 Colin +1 20:59 tajoli exit 20:59 tajoli bye 20:59 davi +1 20:59 tajoli +1 20:59 tajoli I need to leave 20:59 jwagner +1 20:59 chris_n +1 20:59 chris +1 20:59 joetho +1 (with reminders of that to the other various lists?) 20:59 thd I had planned to write a message summarising the options for the mailing list but that is a somewhat different task. 20:58 gmcharlt item: discussion of all ballott issues, and the ballott itself, to take place on the main Koha mailing list (AKA the katipo.co.nz one) 20:58 gmcharlt chris: thanks - charging ahead; two volunteers for GPL3+ 20:58 chris in that case, how about thd and chris for gpl3+ 20:57 davi What mainling list will be used to manage this discussion koha-devel AT koha-community.org ? 20:57 thd I am happy to work with anyone. 20:57 chris thd: would you like to work with me on GPL3+ ? 20:57 davi ack 20:57 gmcharlt davi: right, I corrected my statement 20:56 davi gmcharlt, I volunteered to AGPLv3+ not for just GPLv3 20:56 thd Whoever writes them all descriptions should be available for comment on the mailing list. 20:56 gmcharlt any volunteer for GPL3+ ? 20:56 gmcharlt davi: thanks - one volunteer to do AGPL3+ /correction 20:55 gmcharlt thd: thanks - now two volunteers to do AGPL3+ 20:55 davi as anti-tivoization and anti-pattent is also in AGPLv3+ 20:55 thd I offer to write at least AGPL 3+ description 20:55 gmcharlt davi: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL3+ 20:55 gmcharlt slef: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL2+ 20:55 davi I will review the AGPL v3 + 20:55 gmcharlt I'd prefer that an advocate of each do the wording for each option 20:54 slef I offer gpl2+, even if I'm unsure, as I saw the benefits above 20:54 davi thd++ 20:54 chris_n thd++ 20:54 thd I volunteer to write all descriptions and let everyone argue about improving the descriptions on the mailing list 20:54 gmcharlt ok, sitting on that for the moment 20:53 gmcharlt starting first with GPL2+ (current license) 20:53 gmcharlt ok, I would like at least one person for each ballot option to identify themselves as volunteers to write the descriptions 20:53 davi that was vote correction actually 20:53 thd :) 20:53 * thd misread characters for words 20:52 slef revoting in practice, demostrated by thd 20:52 collum +1 20:52 atz +1 sounds good 20:52 thd +1 20:52 thd =1 20:52 tajoli +1 20:52 thd oops 20:52 thd -1 20:52 Colin +1 20:52 davi +1 20:52 slef +1 20:52 jwagner +1 20:52 chris_n +1 20:52 atz wiki always risks vandalism, but authors can always revert to correct state 20:51 gmcharlt item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 150 words in English + link to koha-community.org wiki; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option 20:51 slef or does that risk vandalism? 20:51 thd gmcharlt: reading the first item with the second item for ballot content is fine 20:51 davi 500 too long 20:51 davi 150++ 20:51 slef a wiki link 20:51 gmcharlt ok 20:51 gmcharlt yes, I meant GPL2+ (current license used by Koha) 20:50 slef gmcharlt: 150 + a link! 20:50 chris_n +1 20:50 gmcharlt thd: seriously? 20:50 * thd changes to -1 20:50 gmcharlt item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 500 words in English; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option 20:50 chris_n Colin: lol 20:50 davi ok 20:50 Colin changes vote to ita vero 20:50 thd gmcharlt: please suspend the flubbed vote before we will end up voting on a hexidecimal ballot. 20:50 atz voter education does not happen *at* the voting booth. discussion is it's own thread 20:49 davi (short rationales in ballot) ++ , in pro of education and information to voters 20:49 thd :) 20:49 slef so you're all voting for gibberish ;-) 20:48 chris_n so much for latin 20:48 gmcharlt slef: indeed I did 20:48 slef actually, gmcharlt just flubbed it 20:48 davi (short rationales in ballot) ++ 20:48 collum +1 20:48 slef I hate that latin. Put "as currently" or something 20:48 rhcl +1 20:48 tajoli +1 20:48 Colin +1 20:48 davi +1 20:48 thd +1 20:48 jwagner +1 20:47 slef -1 20:47 chris +1 20:47 chris_n +1 20:47 gmcharlt item: initial ballot to be proposal will have following items 1. GPL2+ (status quote) 2. GPL3+ 3. AGPL3+ 20:47 jwagner atz, but a _concise_ summary should be posted somewhere 20:47 slef atz: I think voters will tire before that and the ballot's not the place, no. 20:47 davi atz++, short rationales as the exposed above 20:47 * chris_n agrees 20:47 collum +1 20:46 atz slef: i don't mind a *brief* summary or pointers to discussion, but i don't want a big multi-page for/against on the ballot. 20:46 rhcl +1 20:46 Colin +1 20:46 davi +1 20:46 joetho +1 20:46 chris +1 20:46 slef +1 20:46 jwagner +1 20:46 tajoli +1 20:46 chris_n +1 20:46 gmcharlt item: specific preference vorting method to be deferred to discussion on koha mailing list; discussion to take at least one week but no more than two 20:46 slef atz: it should be both. 20:45 slef Appoint a good RO, let them weed if it matters. 20:45 atz this is a voting mechanism, not a time for persuasive args 20:45 chris_n thd: I think we will require the assistance of libraries, etc to accomplish that 20:45 gmcharlt some more procedural issues to slog through 20:45 thd The ballot should link people to discussions about the issues as it had last time. 20:45 gmcharlt ok 20:45 atz yeah, i think people need to be responsible voters. but i think the koha community has been thus far. 20:45 davi the options and rationales 20:44 davi chris_n++ 20:44 atz jwagner: the choices more than the issues. 20:44 chris +1 20:44 thd chris_n: That is our task to point them to the discussion. 20:44 chris_n many in the potential electorate will know little to nothing about the issues 20:44 * jwagner is assuming the ballot will clearly state the issues 20:44 davi chris_n ++ 20:44 davi expose rationales exposed above 20:44 sekjal +1 20:43 * chris_n thinks it would behoove libraries and others to educate potential voters on the issues prior to voting rather than simply "suggesting" a vote 20:43 atz thd: sure 20:43 thd I think that relationship should be a blank box not a drop down list. 20:43 joetho +1 20:43 atz +1 20:42 thd +1 20:42 brendan +1 20:42 jwagner +1 20:42 davi +1 20:42 Colin +1 20:42 collum +1 20:42 tajoli +1 20:42 slef +1 20:42 chris_n +1 20:42 collum atz: exactly 20:42 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 ? 20:42 atz collum: that's the kind of thing i am uninterested in. 20:42 gmcharlt electorate = all individual people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous; voter to state nature of stakeholdership during voting 20:41 jwagner That's fine. I think that the using libraries have a stake & didn't want them blocked from participation. 20:41 collum Some developers may do work for more than one company. 20:41 atz jwagner: not just devs. but they should be recognizable, not just Xayenrgq93134@yahoo. i think any Koha library has a stake. 20:41 joetho I worry too much, then. 20:41 gmcharlt chris_n: not yet; let me float it again 20:40 chris_n gmcharlt: have we a determination on the last explicit? 20:40 gmcharlt joetho: there have been no cases I know of of ballot-box-stuffing during Koha project votes in my memory 20:40 davi The bigger the company is, the more employer they have, the more votes and so power on decision they have 20:40 thd chris+1 20:40 chris Bus stop brb 20:40 chris No issues 20:39 chris If they put down their relationship 20:39 joetho atz: I am thinking of potential problems here with ballotbox stuffing, or complaints of unfairness. No, it hasn't happened yet, but the events of the last year or two indicate this as a possibility to me. 20:39 jwagner By "recognize" do you mean active developers? What about the libraries who use the system but don't actively participate on the lists? 20:38 atz thd: in short, no 20:38 davi +1 20:38 thd atz: We had 2000 of them last time. Do you recognise that many? 20:38 collum atz++ 20:38 slef gmcharlt: of the list given, I would say Conddorcet+Schulze, but that's suboptimal too 20:38 Colin +1 20:38 chris Atz++ 20:38 chris_n +1 20:37 atz i am uninterested in determining whether an organization begins here or there, or who is really a member of it. if they are active Koha ppl that the rest of us recognize, that's all I care about. 20:37 tajoli I suggest: call all admis on mailing list connect with Koha. We list all e-mail. Only those e-mails can vote 20:37 collum +1 20:37 davi joetho, Me being to hand does not count as two votes. Me counts as one vote. 20:37 chris +1 20:37 gmcharlt each individual person has one vote; +1/0/-1 ? 20:37 gmcharlt so to make it explicit 20:37 chris Yep 20:36 atz right 20:36 thd chris: That is exactly what I was requesting. Have a blank box required field for stating relationship to Koha. 20:36 joetho "organization" = multi-branch consortium = one vote? 20:36 gmcharlt " 20:36 gmcharlt "electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous 20:36 chris Eg 20:36 chris I don't think even 20:36 gmcharlt rhcl: davi: actually, we already discussed that when we voted on the electorate 20:36 slef network problems here, sorry 20:36 davi one organization = one user ===> one vote 20:36 chris I don't stating relationship to koha is too much to ask 20:36 davi one developer = one vote 20:35 davi one organisation = one vote 20:35 slef gmcharlt: yes. o m 20:35 rhcl Does an organization (library) get only one vote? Does all of Tech Services get to vote? +director? 20:35 davi manually 20:35 davi and check against voter ID 20:35 davi IP login ++ 20:35 chris_n ip logging too maybe? 20:34 thd chris: can we make that somewhat strong non-anonymity? 20:34 chris To spot anomalies 20:34 chris Non anonymity is enough 20:34 gmcharlt slef: the dferment you propose - is that regarding the preference voting scheme we employ? 20:34 chris I dont 20:33 tajoli also I vote = subscription of one mailing list 20:33 chris Yes 20:33 davi ack 20:33 atz davi: the spoofee will know if they see somebody post pretending to be them 20:33 joetho I think it is reasonable to restrict voting to developers (easy to decide who's who) and users (not so easy) 20:33 davi vote = subscription 20:33 davi We could use a mailing list to count vote 20:33 thd joetho: giving an email address for many people is not anonymous. 20:33 davi e-mail can be easily spoofed, so we should at least check back as mailing list do 20:32 atz thd: like i said, if it turns up 50 never-seen-before voters, we revisit our options. 20:32 gmcharlt i.e., IRV, STV, Condorcet, etc. 20:32 joetho we already agreed on non-anonymous voting. 20:32 thd We could be inviting the entire internet to vote. 20:32 slef I request a deferment to email on this for max 1 week to koha-devel becuase I can't find a good description right now. 20:32 gmcharlt not quite what I meant 20:32 gmcharlt hold on 20:31 thd By formal method maybe I merely mean that people should state their relation to Koha. 20:31 tajoli e-mail, i think 20:30 davi what communication channel is more used by Koha electorate? 20:30 thd I suggest that we have a formal method of identifying affiliation to more easily identify people buying voters 20:30 gmcharlt I will now open the floor to five minutes for any discussion of *which* preference voting scheme to use 20:29 gmcharlt ok 20:29 brendan +1 20:29 richard hi 20:28 sekjal +1 20:28 joetho +1 20:28 chris +1 20:28 tajoli +1 20:28 rhcl +1 20:28 gregb +1 20:27 davi +1 20:27 collum +1 20:27 jwagner +1 20:27 slef +1 20:27 chris_n +1 20:27 wizzyrea +1 20:27 Colin +1 20:27 owen +1 20:27 davi reading link 20:27 thd +1 20:27 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 20:27 slef atz: depends if it's all paid 20:26 gmcharlt voting is to be done using some form of preference voting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_voting) with revoting allowed during the voting period 20:26 gmcharlt next question 20:26 sekjal +1 20:26 thd +1 20:26 atz slef: must be nice. 20:26 gmcharlt ok 20:26 Colin +1 20:26 jwagner +1 20:26 chris +1 3 for both periods 20:25 collum +1 20:25 chris_n +1 20:25 joetho +1 at least 3 wks 20:25 owen +1 20:25 tajoli +1 20:25 wizzyrea +1 20:25 davi +1 20:25 slef +1 20:25 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 20:25 slef some have 2-3 week hols 20:25 gmcharlt we have a motion for the voting duration to be at least three weeks 20:25 sekjal +1 20:25 owen +1 20:25 davi (3+ weeks) ++ 20:24 Colin +1 20:24 slef +1 would prefer 3+ weeks 20:24 joetho +1 20:24 wizzyrea +1 20:24 rhcl +1 20:24 gregb +1 20:24 jwagner +1 20:24 collum +1 20:24 atz +1 20:24 thd +1 20:24 tajoli +1 20:24 davi +1 20:24 chris_n +1 20:24 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 20:24 gmcharlt voting is to start at a specific time (to be annonced at least three weeks in advance) and end at a specific time (at least two weeks after voting starts) 20:23 gmcharlt so next question 20:23 gmcharlt chris_n: they've all been, recently 20:23 atz so was the HLT question 20:23 chris_n gmcharlt: but this is a high-stake issue 20:23 chris Yep 20:23 atz yeah, i think we leave it open but if it doesn't pass the sniff test, reconsider methodology 20:22 gmcharlt ok, next question 20:22 slef chris_n: appoint a good retuning officer 20:22 chris Its easily spotted 20:22 thd We would need to be mindful of votes being bought if the stakes are high enough such as licensing. 20:22 gmcharlt chris_n: it's never been a problem in the past 20:22 chris +1 20:22 atz +1 (previous proviso notwithstanding) 20:22 * chris_n wonders how we prevent ballot-box stuffing 20:22 joetho +1 20:22 Colin +1 20:22 sekjal +1 20:21 slef +1 20:21 rhcl +1 20:21 collum +1 20:21 gregb +1 20:21 tajoli +1 20:21 thd +1 20:21 jwagner +1 20:21 owen +1 20:21 davi +1 20:21 wizzyrea +1 20:21 chris_n +1 20:21 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 20:21 gmcharlt electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous 20:20 gmcharlt ok, let's do that explicitly 20:20 sekjal +1 (where 'self-identify' implies non-anonymity) 20:20 rhcl +1 20:20 wizzyrea +1 20:20 slef +1 20:20 owen +1 20:20 tajoli +1 (non-anonymity) 20:20 Colin +1 20:20 chris I think that must be required too 20:19 jwagner +1 20:19 davi +1 20:19 collum +1 20:19 chris_n +1 20:19 gregb +1 20:19 chris_n slef: we only required non-anonymity 20:19 chris +1 20:18 slef what did we do for the HLT association vote? 20:18 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 ? 20:18 slef thd: no, but you need to know if there are blocks (and preferably the reason) 20:18 gmcharlt electorate to consist of all individuals who self-identify as KOha stateholders 20:18 slef I'm sorry - my old reference has gone offline and I can't find another one. 20:18 thd slef: there is no need to know who voted what to help form a consensus. 20:18 gmcharlt #1 electorate 20:18 gmcharlt we have two points that I'd like to get the sense of the meeting on 20:17 gmcharlt putting aside the question of how votes get cast 20:17 davi +1 on max duration 20:17 gmcharlt ok 20:17 slef thd: no. For example, debian allows revoting, but it doesn't publish the votes until the end, which hinders consensus-building. 20:17 chris_n +1 on max duration 20:16 thd slef: I presume that revoting does not preclude definite resolution after a set time. 20:16 davi atz++, playing the "try to convent votes via FUD or similar" is a risky way to follow 20:16 tajoli +1 on max duration 20:16 slef I agree with atz that there will need to be a max duration. 20:16 atz i mean, consensus is great. progress is better. 20:16 chris Yup under some time constraint 20:16 atz i like the idea of a definite process w/ a max duration. 20:15 * chris_n like's the revote to consensus idea also 20:15 davi oops, sorry 20:15 thd slef: I like the idea of revoting to consensus. 20:15 davi With money you can do great things ;) 20:15 gmcharlt davi: um, what? that doesn't seem to be on topic 20:14 davi also get donations to support that campaign 20:14 davi I think we should do a strong anti-AGPL campaign, as that license could be dangerous (FUD) 20:13 slef gmcharlt: with revoting allowed. 20:13 chris Stv 20:13 gmcharlt slef: preference voting, in other words? 20:12 slef thd: I think you let each person vote block, stand-aside, reservation or agreement on each option, then look whether to remove a weak option and if you can convert votes. I'm trying to find a concise process description. 20:12 chris_n which is fine 20:12 thd However, developers already have a choice of making their own build. 20:12 tajoli I think could vote everyone register in koha-lists (also not in english) 20:12 chris_n their code 20:11 chris_n thd: but we don't have to accept 20:11 davi good, so I will vote 20:11 atz if it goes there, i think we review our methods. 20:11 thd chris_n: I agree, however, the developers are going to use whatever license they choose. 20:11 atz yeah, i think there are legit stakeholders beyond devs... but i would hate to see 50 never-seen-before ppl chime in. 20:11 chris_n during our deliberations on organization 20:11 chris_n "vested interest" has already been defined 20:11 owen Agreed 20:10 chris_n this is a question of what licensing the project will accept so everyone with a vested interest in Koha should be able to vote 20:10 chris I don't think patch count is useful in thus context 20:10 thd maybe davi is holding out for AGPL 3. 20:10 tajoli Personaly I think that a vote by e-mail (on mailng-list) is more easy to say and to do 20:10 thd slef: What voting method provides voting towards consensus if that would be good? 20:09 davi Maybe I should not allowed to vote as I have not contributed to Koha (yet), patch pending. 20:09 thd I think that tajoli has the more interesting question 20:09 slef thd: I would hope we could vote towards consensus, but koha has generally tended to use a division early. 20:09 gmcharlt is a consensus achievable? 20:08 tajoli Who can vote ? 20:08 gmcharlt slef: well, that depends 20:08 atz if we were to do email, is the dev-list the right venue? general list? 20:08 thd chris_n: there is no tamper proof method 20:08 atz i think an asynchronous but limited-duration voting method makes sense 20:08 chris_n thd: wiki voting could be tampered with 20:08 gmcharlt and the voting period sufficiently long, particularly since people have summer and winter vacations to deal with 20:08 thd slef:? 20:07 thd are not all voting methods recordable by some means? 20:07 slef Are we voting in a division or trying to build a consensus? 20:07 gmcharlt and in anyevent, the vote needs to be publicized well in advance 20:07 thd exactly 20:07 davi email++, because it is more accesible 20:07 gmcharlt thd: none, so far - we're discussing the options 20:07 tajoli for this i prefer e-mail 20:06 davi wiki++ 20:06 thd gmcharlt: which methods have you eliminated? 20:06 gmcharlt e.g., on the wiki 20:06 gmcharlt I propose that it be done in a recordable fashion 20:06 gmcharlt as far as the method of voting is concerned 20:05 davi (2) 20:05 atz method of voting? 20:05 gmcharlt 2. AGPL3+ 20:05 gmcharlt 1. GPL3+ 20:05 gmcharlt 0. GPL2+ 20:05 gmcharlt it looks like we have 20:05 gmcharlt then, as far as optoins that have been signfiicantly discussed 20:05 gmcharlt ok 20:04 thd slef :) 20:04 chris_n +1 20:04 collum +1 20:04 sekjal +1 20:04 chris +1 20:04 atz by general consensus, let's say 20:04 tajoli +1 20:04 slef and can the AGPL 3+ lovers keep it in their pants for a few minutes, please? ;-) else this will degenerate 20:04 joetho +1 20:04 brendan +1 20:04 atz +1 20:04 owen +1 20:04 rhcl +1 20:04 wizzyrea +1 20:04 thd +1 20:03 Colin +1 20:03 davi +1 20:03 slef +1 20:03 gmcharlt may I have +1/0/-1 on going with the "version n or later" for GPL/AGPL options that get voted on? 20:03 davi thd, it has been clear, AGPL 3+ is the best option for a web application as Koha 20:02 gmcharlt so to make it concrete 20:02 gmcharlt version [2,3] or version [2,3] or later 20:02 thd davi: I am with you on AGPL 3+ if it has not been clear. 20:02 gmcharlt the options to vote on should be, as far as the GPL or AGPL are concerned 20:02 rhcl agree w/ thd on that point 20:02 davi thd++ 20:02 thd davi: I merely advocate any plus choice over any only one version choice. 20:02 gmcharlt however, I would like to get the sense of the meeting as to whether 20:01 davi thd, I propose the "or later" for sure 20:01 gmcharlt I think (to be reductive) that the choice of options remains much the same 20:01 thd If we choose, GPL 3 or AGPL 3 only, without the or later version option, we will never have the choice of GPL 4 or AGPL 4. 20:01 gmcharlt having had our mini-debate 20:01 davi ;) 20:01 davi thd, They can also fork and lock Koha in a cloud 20:01 gmcharlt ok 20:01 atz I don't think that is a clear approach. 20:00 CGI197 j'ai un probleme concernant l'import des notice 20:00 davi contribution quantity is 20:00 davi I think we should allow any compatible license, to get as much contributions as possible, as freedom is not main actually 20:00 thd Anyone can create a GPL 3 or AGPL 3 build of Koha under the existing license. 19:59 chris_n +1 19:59 atz I think i'm w/ thd. 19:59 CGI197 hii 19:59 thd I would argue pro GPL 2+ against *GPL only option. 19:58 CGI197 15 19:58 slef As I wrote before, I think I might be in the GPL3+ camp, but I've been focusing on my (years-old, oft-asked) AGPL3 concerns. 19:58 davi sorry 19:58 davi yep 19:58 gmcharlt and it seems like davi mixed in anti-GPL2+ as well 19:57 slef That's all I have pro-GPL2+, too, really. 19:57 davi <end> 19:56 davi 2.- use a license which cover the web application case, as Koha is actually a web application 19:56 atz good reasons 19:56 slef sorry, pro-GPL2+ 19:56 slef Pro-GPL2: it doesn't seem broke yet, it leaves the upgrade trapdoor open and requires no extra work from us. 19:56 davi 1.- upgrade reason 19:56 davi I could talk a little about anti-GPL2+ 19:55 chris bus will try to get back online from there 19:55 thd We may have to wait 15 years for motivation at FSF to produce GPL 4 or AGPL 4 but we should not close off the option. 19:55 gmcharlt that leaves us with pro/anti-status quo, i.e., GPL2+ 19:55 slef davi, I'm not sure if that will stick. We don't agree if AGPL3 is in the same freedom spirit of not, for example. 19:54 gmcharlt ok, five minutes are up for anti-GPL3+ 19:54 slef But then, I'm happy with Expat for some things, so I might be too liberal for some of you. ;-) 19:54 davi to about any problem in that case. 19:54 davi slef, There is a note in the license about "while the license keep the same freedom spirit" or something like that 19:54 thd slef's identification of bugs and week points in the license are why we should always use or later invocation. 19:54 * atz nod. 19:53 slef The strongest argument against "or later" is that FSF is undemocratic and could be captured after RMS, but I think the benefits outweigh that risk. 19:53 chris i agree 19:53 davi atz++ 19:52 atz we cannot anticipate all possible evolutions in law, but by leaving open a later GPL version, we can protect ourselves against them (and make future license changes easier) 19:51 slef The drafting was inequitable and the same mix of formal and invective wording exists in GPL3. But the wording mixes in GPL2 to a lesser extent, too. 19:51 atz re: "or later"... the only liability is if we think a later GPL would *weaken* protections. A serious consideration, but I regard this as highly unlikely. 19:50 davi no bad issues here, aside the one exposed above 19:50 davi GPLv3 is a great license, if we talk about freedom and community 19:50 slef Well, one argument of mine still applies to the GPL3 19:50 owen I would like to hear anti-GPL3 arguments based on what it contains rather than what it lacks compared to AGPLv3 19:50 davi It was not added in GPLv3+ because big players did not wanted it in the main GPL license 19:49 davi that is because the clause 13 was added in AGPLv3+ 19:49 davi GPLv3+ does not cover the web application case 19:49 thd ... after anti-GPL 3 I can raise my point 19:49 davi but 19:49 slef Digital rights management (DRM) refers to access control technologies used by publishers to limit usage of digital media or devices. In contrast to copy protection, which only attempts to prohibit unauthorized copies of media or files, digital rights management enables the publisher to control what can and cannot be done with a... http://a.vu/w:Digital_rights_management 19:49 davi yes 19:49 davi GPLv3+ is great option 19:49 davi me 19:49 thd I would just like to raise a general point about the or later version option. 19:49 gmcharlt any takers for arguing anti-GPL3 ? 19:48 gmcharlt ok, thank you 19:48 chris yes, that is a good point 19:48 slef http://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html also mentions anti-DRM/TPM as a major change. 19:48 chris i see it as a step in the right direction 19:46 davi sorry 19:46 owen davi: We're listening to chris right now 19:46 chris to my mind gplv3 is closing loopholes so taht the spirit of gplv2 is protected 19:46 davi AGPL = GPL + clause 13, so it also protect against tivoization 19:46 chris yep 19:45 slef 19:45 slef Tivoization is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license, but uses hardware to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term and believes this practice denies users some of the freedom that the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) was designed to protect... http://a.vu/w:Tivoization 19:45 owen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization 19:45 chris its when people release code that has 'anti-features' that shut itself down when it detects modification 19:45 slef patents are an interesting one, but software is not patentable as such here (in theory), so I'd prefer to see a patent GPL instead, but there isn't one yet. I have some sympathy with those who are concerned by that. 19:45 davi yes 19:45 tajoli no 19:45 chris it also makes tivoization much harder, do people know what that is? 19:45 davi sorry 19:45 chris can i finish? 19:44 owen davi: We're listening to chris right now 19:44 davi chris, AGPL can also protect againts patents, as AGPL = GPL + clause 13 19:44 owen chris_n: Maybe, and still 4. 19:43 chris_n owen: 3b. loose protest, pay bucks 19:43 chris it provides protection against patent deals the like of M$ and novel 19:43 davi Under slef rationale we should allow _any_ license as it is compatible with the current source code, "to allow more contributions". So the license we use is not main, but the quantity of contributions we can get. 19:43 chris exactly :) 19:43 atz "It's like GPL2, only better!" 19:43 gmcharlt ok, chris, go for it 19:43 chris i can 19:42 owen 1. Withhold code. 2. Wait for protest. 3. Fight protest. 4. Release code after so long that you can't integrate it easily anymore. 19:42 gmcharlt second try - anybody want to make the pro-GPL3 case? 19:42 gmcharlt five minutes are up for anti-AGPL3 19:42 gmcharlt ok 19:42 chris if the overwhelming opinion is not agpl3, then i would definitely want to upgrade to gpl3+ 19:42 slef Like data downloads, like easier contributions back to koha-community. 19:42 atz let's also say that AGPL license conversion introduces actual work to be done. 19:42 thd owen: yes less likely, and he would not have a legal defence for hiding the code. 19:41 slef I hope that there is reasonableness, but let's stick with our current, better-understood licence and focus on the other battles. 19:41 davi That would increase creativity 19:41 davi and anyone do what the want, forking and locking if the want 19:41 slef It depends on "a general prevailing reasonableness among contributors" and I hope we can acknowledge, sadly, we have seen in the last two years, that isn't always the case. 19:41 davi Under sleft rationale it would be better change to use the BSD 19:41 slef There may also be repository management work to do before we adopt it, as it seems we may have to include various perl modules in the Corresponding Source. 19:40 davi thd, Nobody understood very well the GPL when it began to be used either 19:40 slef The liability market is a horrible idea which favours unethical gamblers, in that they have the lowest costs (because they do the bare minimum) and so the best return. 19:40 owen So a LEK scenario under AGPL3 only becomes less likely because of an increased fear of enforcement? 19:40 davi and others 19:40 thd slef is correct about the expert lawyers and AGPL 3 19:40 davi ident.ca 19:40 davi AGPLv3 is used by big players as Canonical (Ubuntu), SugarCRM, 19:39 slef The drafting process was awful (as it was for GPL3+) and so hard to use that questions I'm almost sure were raised during drafting are met with comments like "I don't know that anyone's brought the issue up before" (one of Aaron's emails to thd) 19:39 thd owen: kados would likely have been difficult as that was his tendency at the time but would have been more constrained in how he chose to be difficult. 19:39 slef AGPL3 is not well understood by community expert lawyers yet. 19:39 davi We can jump already to AGPLv3 19:39 slef We should win the easy battles, like data portability, before jumping into AGPLv3. 19:38 davi atz, GPL was not tested up to years later 19:38 slef Even now, with GPL2+, it's easier to lock someone in by locking in their data. 19:38 brendan good point atz 19:38 davi slef, any evidence? 19:38 atz While AGPL has been released and seen some adoption, it has yet to be tested by any significant enforcement cases. 19:38 owen thd: He would have been able to hide the code for as long as it took for someone to mount a protest 19:38 slef There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one way to lock in a user. 19:38 brendan what are the know loopholes with AGPL3 19:37 slef AGPLv3 does not do what it was proposed for: it does not provide protection against software as a service providers customising it and locking users in. 19:37 thd owen: the advantage which AGPL 3 would have provided is that kados would not have been able to use hiding the code as a weapon against competition 19:37 gmcharlt time for five minutes anti-AGPL3 19:37 gmcharlt ok, five minutes pro-AGPL3 are up 19:37 davi Any copyright holder can sue 19:37 gmcharlt .... 19:36 wizzyrea < doesn't have LEK anyway 19:36 wizzyrea which I'm sure we could do, if we could look at it. 19:36 slef s/customers/users/ 19:36 slef wizzyrea: we'd need one of their customers to break rank and extract the code for us, though. 19:36 owen Not even that, it would require that someone pay to sue them wouldn't it? 19:36 thd owen: LibLime would have done what LibLime would have done under kados 19:36 davi right 19:36 wizzyrea it wouldn't prevent them from doing that, but it would prevent them from not releasing the code for LEK, right? 19:36 slef owen: it wouldn't. 19:35 owen How would an AGPLv3+ license have prevented LibLime from putting customers on LEK? 19:35 davi <end> 19:35 davi big players as Google and so on 19:35 davi Clause 13 was added just to cover it, as it was not allowed in GPL v3 by 19:35 davi AGPL v3+ is just GPL v3+ with the addition of the clause 13 19:34 davi GPL v3+ does not cover this as it does not include the clause 13 19:34 davi to cover the freedom of the source code part of the web application. 19:34 davi but is is needed 19:34 davi So, AGPL v3+ is not enough 19:33 davi the right to use the personal or not personal data there. 19:33 davi The Terms of Service of the specific site, talks about 19:33 davi The license, in this case the AGPL, talk about the Copyright of the source code of the web application 19:33 davi it is better controlled by the Term of Service of the site 19:32 davi The AGPL v3 does not talk about the data side of the web application as 19:32 davi forcing to publish the source code of the web application 19:32 chris_n CGI112: after the meeting 19:32 CGI112 chris_n: can I talk to you about labels and barcodes? 19:32 davi The AGPL v3 + tries to solve this problem by 19:31 davi A web site or web application. 19:31 davi The application is a service. 19:31 davi because there is not actual _distribution_ of the application. 19:31 davi as it allow the source code not be published 19:31 davi It is said even GPLv3+ allow locking users of a web application 19:30 davi ok 19:30 thd after you davi please procede 19:30 gmcharlt so, thd or davi, please go ahead 19:30 davi clause 13 is key for a web application 19:29 davi thd+ 19:29 gmcharlt and start with pro-AGPL3/AGPL3+ 19:29 thd Let me state that GPL 3 provides everything which AGPL 3 provides except clause 13 for remote network use. 19:29 gmcharlt we'll pass over pro-GPL3 19:29 gmcharlt since the most of the discussion has been around the AGPL3 19:29 gmcharlt ok 19:28 davi I could speak in favour of AGPL 3+ if you want 19:28 chris_n my only motive for promoting GPL3+ would be as a means to get to AGPL3+ 19:27 thd I could speak in favour of GPL 3+ but not at the expense of AGPL 3+ 19:27 slef I've spent most time considering GPL2 v AGPL3 so far. 19:27 slef You know, I'm not sure if I'm a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ or not. 19:26 thd joetho: I will try to find time post a summary of what the lawyer at SFLC has reported before whatever date we fix for an actual vote. 19:26 davi We can encourage education, as much as possible 19:25 gmcharlt would a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ care to advocate for it? 19:25 joetho I have tried to educate myself on this topic in general, and have found it to be very challenging. 19:25 slef davi, would you like voters to pass a qualification/comprehension test first? 19:25 gmcharlt so ... since I thus far haven't heard any major objections to the format ... 19:25 gmcharlt and (I would argue) we can decide on the means for a vote hear, but not take the actual vote during this meeting 19:25 davi Lot of people have not read the licenses, so they can vote at 'random' 19:24 gmcharlt voting is a separate agenda item 19:24 gmcharlt right 19:24 thd Sorry you are stating a format for discussion not for voting. 19:24 thd do I understand the format to then decide between the subparts of 2 or 3 if chosen? 19:24 gmcharlt we can do pro-/anti status quo (GPL2+) as well 19:23 munin brendan: Error: "time" is not a valid command. 19:23 brendan @time 19:23 slef I think we should say "3. GPL2+, as before" just in case someone who doesn't know Latin thinks we mean Status Quo the band ;-) 19:23 gmcharlt then five-minutes anti-GPL3 19:23 gmcharlt then five-minutes antii-AGPL3 19:23 gmcharlt followed by five minutes pro-AGPL3 19:23 gmcharlt so unless there are objections with the format, I would like somebody who wants to advocate for GPL3 to spend five minutes doing so 19:22 gmcharlt 3. status quo 19:22 thd jwagner: work under the three clause BSD license can be included and is included within Koha. The distinction is about the overall license. 19:22 gmcharlt 2. AGPL3/APLG3+ 19:22 jwagner No, I was just trying to understand the differences. 19:22 gmcharlt 1. GPL3/GPL3+ 19:22 gmcharlt so, boiling it down to three 19:22 gmcharlt jwagner: if you want to propose it on the mailing lists, fine 19:22 atz otherwise we're here forever 19:22 atz i think allotted time is a good strategy 19:21 davi AGPL tries to avoid it in web applications 19:21 davi GPL allow the same in web applications 19:21 davi BSD licenses are supported for example by Microsoft, as they can convert software under such license on "privative software", forking and embedding it in their Windows and so on 19:21 thd jwagner, we can only use a license for the software as a whole which every contributor who has ever been approves or one which can be upgraded from the present license 19:20 atz jwagner: also, no, imho 19:20 slef jwagner: I think downgrading GPL2+ contributions to BSD may be difficult. Some past contributors (do we still have Steve Tonneson or pate code in there?) are not generally around. 19:20 jwagner Should it be? 19:20 atz jwagner: not afaik 19:19 gmcharlt no, the Berkeley license has not been brought up to my knowledge 19:19 gmcharlt namely allot time for each of the options; time for proponents to speak, and time for opponents to speak 19:19 jwagner Forgive me for treading over old ground -- I haven't been able to keep up with all the messages. Is the Berkeley license somewhere in there, or has it been considered? 19:19 gmcharlt I suggest that we use a modified format for this meeting 19:18 davi being it a web application, IMHO we should vote to use "AGPL v3 or later" 19:18 gmcharlt since this issue could be discussed pretty much indefinitely 19:18 gmcharlt * AGPL3 or later 19:18 gmcharlt * AGPL3 19:18 gmcharlt * GPL3 or later 19:17 gmcharlt * GPL3 19:17 gmcharlt * status quo (GPL 2 or later) 19:17 gmcharlt namely 19:17 gmcharlt as near as I can tell, the following options exist or have been proposed 19:17 thd I had misremembered the date as 16 July for the meeting. 19:17 gmcharlt i.e., framing a question to be decided by vote or other means on the question of whether to change the license for Koha 3.4 19:17 thd Sorry for the rapid agenda construction. 19:16 cait just listening 19:16 gmcharlt I believe that that the first two agenda items amount to the same thing 19:16 davi Davi Diaz, worker for software.coop 19:16 gmcharlt ok 19:15 * cait Katrin Fischer, BSZ 19:15 fredericd Frédéric Demians, Tamil 19:13 chris chris cormack, RM 3.4, only sorta here got a toddler to get ready for kindergarten 19:13 rhcl Greg Lawson - Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 19:13 Nate Nate Curulla; ByWater Solutions 19:13 dpavlin Dobrica Pavlinusic, FFZG, Croatia 19:12 * jcamins is also just listening 19:12 * wizzyrea Liz Rea, NEKLS (lurking) 19:12 collum Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library 19:12 * jcamins = Jared Camins-Esakov, American Numismatic Society and elsewhere 19:12 atz \me Joe Atzberger, Equinox 19:12 * chris_n = Chris Nighswonger, FBC, 3.2 Release Maintainer 19:12 tajoli Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy) 19:12 jwagner Jane Wagner, PTFS 19:12 sekjal Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions 19:12 brendan brendan gallagher, bywater solutions 19:12 * owen = Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library 19:12 joetho joetho = Joe Tholen / SEKLS / Kansas 19:12 Colin = Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe 19:12 * slef = MJ Ray, past RM, worker-member of software.coop, Somerset 19:11 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York 19:11 * gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, 3.2 RM 19:11 gmcharlt let's start with roll call 19:11 gmcharlt 3. IRC voting, email ballot, or other ballot type? 19:11 gmcharlt 2. Forming the question. 19:11 gmcharlt 1. Follow-up on actions from General IRC Meeting, 2 June 2010 about the question of upgrading the copyright license for Koha 3.4. 19:11 gmcharlt agenda is 19:11 thd Those with a strong record on one side such as myself should not be trusted. 19:11 gmcharlt http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/License_Upgrade_Vote_IRC_Meeting,_13_July_2010 19:11 gmcharlt page for the meeting is 19:10 gmcharlt so 19:10 gmcharlt I'm not really the one who called, but I'm wiling to moderate 19:10 thd gmcharlt: are you conducting the meeting? 19:09 thd for a few minutes 19:09 thd after neglecting the time blissfully 19:08 thd I am here :) 19:08 gmcharlt thd: I believe we were waiting for you 19:08 thd gmcharlt: Is there not a meeting now? 19:08 gmcharlt PM me your email address, please 19:08 gmcharlt dpavlin: sure, I'll add you to the CC list for that component 19:06 dpavlin or at least for Admin Cc (if there is such a thing in bugzilla) because it usually breaks for me :-) 19:05 dpavlin I'm up for assignee role. 19:05 atz greets chris_n 19:05 owen Dang, there goes my plan to resolve all template bugs by removing the component 19:05 chris yep anything my import couldnt find a component for, got stuck in importedbugs 19:05 chris_n heya atz 19:05 gmcharlt any volunteers to be the default assignee? 19:05 * atz nod 19:05 gmcharlt I've created the Authentication component 19:04 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4193 critical, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Authentication with cardnumber/password at intranet allows superlibrarian access 19:04 slef bug 4193 suggests they are stuck in importedbugs 19:04 slef anyone going to admit to having an Authentication bug? ;-) 19:04 slef ok 19:03 atz wonder where the old bugs ended up then 19:03 gmcharlt slef: quite sure - that component used to exist, but evidently wasn't created 19:03 druthb off to catch the bus in a few...see ya! 19:03 slef gmcharlt: are you sure? 19:03 slef dpavlin: Patrons 19:02 * gmcharlt fixes that 19:02 gmcharlt dpavlin: looks like authentication got missed during the changeover 19:02 * slef waits for his list mailbox to open... and waits... and waits... 19:02 dpavlin slef: I would guess same, but here is no such category on http://bugs.koha-community.org :-) 19:01 slef gmcharlt: owen: ok, one for later. 19:01 slef dpavlin: I guess Authentication. Am I right? 19:00 gmcharlt slef: and what version of Koha does anything with the Perl taint flag? ;) 19:00 dpavlin quick question: against which component to report bugs with ldap? 19:00 owen Can you give me an example? I don't understand. 19:00 slef which would be another protection against XSS 18:59 slef stops you passing tainted variables to anything with escape="0" set 18:59 owen What is that? 18:58 slef might want force_untaint=>1 too 18:57 slef owen: default_escape=>'html' in the HTML::Template->new() call 18:56 atz yeah, it affects literally every page and page fragment... 18:56 slef it's an even bigger job than when I added the SQL escaping :-( 18:56 atz if nothing else, it'll break your feature till you pick the correct escaping. 18:56 owen What is the correct change to C4::Output to enable the default escape? 18:55 atz it's good to have *some* kind of default escaping... we've been too sloppy in the past mixing and matching 18:55 slef same applies 18:55 slef also ESCAPE=JS 18:54 atz yes, they would need escape=url (but would be broken by same default move) 18:54 slef atz: from memory (danger!) isn't there another escape for that? 18:54 gmcharlt there shouldn't be all that many of them, and fewer all the time, but they do exist 18:54 wizzyrea it's ok :) 18:54 atz or URL fragments 18:53 gmcharlt right - places that are intentionally injecting HTML that way 18:53 cait wizzyrea: sorry, don't know the project 18:53 slef places where html is in the TMPL_VAR 18:53 owen gmcharlt: What would require an explicit escape=0? 18:52 wizzyrea ah, okies. 18:52 cait wizzyrea: im not really a translation person, only for koha :) 18:52 gmcharlt owen: yes - the string freeze, after all, delays most other template changes 18:51 wizzyrea cait: as a translation person, have you worked at all with http://blog.glotpress.org 18:51 owen gmcharlt: You mean prioritize it for 3.2? 18:51 slef hi all 18:50 gmcharlt owen: would you have time this week to chase them all down? 18:50 gmcharlt there would be fewer places to find to explicitly set escape = 0 if we do that 18:49 owen Having chased down many instances of Bug 2600 I'm certainly interested in the possibility of a default_escape of HTML 18:48 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2600 critical, P3, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, HTML tags in titles not escaped in many places 18:48 owen bug 3652 could also be considered a generalized version of Bug 2600 18:46 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3652 critical, P5, ---, mjr, NEW, XSS vulnerabilities 18:46 sekjal bug 3652 claims to be a more generalized instance of the bug 18:45 gmcharlt near as I can tell, submitter didn't respond to request for more information 18:45 atz I think that is obsolete. gmcharlt would know for certain. 18:43 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2690 critical, P3, ---, gmcharlt, ASSIGNED, Security Vulnerability Gives me Administrative Access 18:43 sekjal anyone know the latest on bug 2690? last update was last year 18:42 cait owen++ 18:42 owen Then you should be able to use the browser's file -> Save as to save it as a patch 18:41 cait thx owen! 18:41 cait aaah 18:41 owen Oh, don't click the diff link or the details link, click the title of the patch 18:41 cait http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=2351&action=diff 18:41 cait no, a formatted page 18:40 owen When you click on the attachment in bugzilla does it open a page of plain text? 18:39 cait or from the mailing list, I did it once but don't remember how :( 18:38 cait want to test your patch, but not sure how to get your patch out of bugzilla in the right format 18:37 owen Yes 18:37 cait owen: still around? 18:37 munin cait: Quote #30: "< pianohacker> Dealing with me can indeed be painful" (added by chris at 05:34 PM, September 02, 2009) 18:37 cait @quote random 18:36 cait happy birthday :) 18:33 atz thx! 18:33 wizzyrea oh hey atz ! happy birthday a day late! 18:33 jcamins wizzyrea: you do indeed. You should have a #koha crown. 18:32 atz true 18:32 wizzyrea i seem to be the queen of the pithy #koha meta quote 18:32 * druthb falls out of her chair laughing. 18:32 munin druthb: Quote #25: "<wizzyrea> ha, in #koha we don't pick each other's brains... we git pull them." (added by gmcharlt at 03:40 PM, August 14, 2009) 18:32 druthb @quote random 18:32 wizzyrea hahahaha 18:32 munin druthb: Quote #1: "<pianohacker> resolve, rather, I doubt it needs lotion" (added by gmcharlt at 11:05 PM, May 30, 2009) 18:32 druthb @quote random 18:31 munin druthb: Quote #49: "wizzyrea: KOHAKONG: Stomping all other ILS's" (added by a user that is no longer registered at 11:20 AM, December 22, 2009) 18:31 druthb @quote random 18:31 munin druthb: *click* 18:31 druthb @roulette 18:29 joetho hrrrmph. 18:29 druthb There. 18:29 munin druthb: The operation succeeded. Quote #83 added. 18:29 druthb @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" 18:28 munin joetho: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command). 18:28 joetho @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" 18:28 munin druthb: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command). 18:28 druthb @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" 18:27 wizzyrea "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" 18:27 trea they are in the business of teaching people to fish in this channel 18:27 joetho There is almost *always* somebody awake and on this channel. 18:26 wizzyrea chris_n is usually the one who knows most about labels and barcodes 18:26 joetho cg112: Remember, this is an open source project, and unless you have engaged the services of a support vendor, you are going to have to solve issues like this on your own. This channel is a good source, and so are the email listservs. 18:26 jcamins Maybe send an e-mail to the list? 18:26 jcamins I'm not sure who uses those features. 18:23 CGI112 Thanks for the ideas, jcamins. Strangely, its working now. I don't know how long it will continue working but its working now. Do you have any suggestions of who I should talk to if I have problems in the future? 18:17 jcamins I'm out of ideas. We don't use the barcode functionality in Koha. 18:15 jcamins 100 18:15 CGI112 Title does say 245...what should author say? 18:08 jcamins Make sure that title says 245. 18:08 jcamins Yeah. "Koha to MARC Mapping." 17:59 CGI112 jcamins: can I check the links through the administration page? 17:55 CGI112 ...How do I check the MARC links? 17:55 CGI112 Sorry, I am such a computer novice 17:54 jcamins Maybe check your MARC links? 17:54 jcamins Well, that's good, anyway. 17:54 CGI112 jcamins: I clicked on the link and it says everything is a-okay 17:52 jcamins On the Administration page (in your staff client) there is a link to "MARC Bibliographic framework test." 17:51 CGI112 I don't believe I did. How do I do it? 17:50 jcamins CGI112: I've never used these features at all, but did you do the MARC Bibliographic framework test under Koha Administration? 17:46 CGI112 Whenever I request that a call number, ISBN, or barcode number is printed next to the barcode, everything is fine. However, when I request that an author or title is printed next to the barcode, it says there is an error 17:44 CGI112 I can't seem to get book titles or authors to print along with the barcodes even though Koha has a setting for it 17:43 CGI112 Owen: yeah, I've been trying to get help with printing barcodes and other labels 17:42 owen Do you have a question CGI112 ? 17:42 CGI112 Chris? Wizzyrea? 17:41 CGI112 Anybody there? 17:27 kf bye #koha 17:05 pianohack bbl 17:02 atz thx 17:02 brendan happy birthday 17:02 atz hey brendan 17:02 atz guess not (yet).... the register story has pretty weak numbers though 17:02 brendan heya atz 16:58 atz didn't google buy sourceforge anyway? 16:57 davi * http://identi.ca 16:56 davi * Launchpad 16:56 davi * SugarCRM 16:55 davi * Incomplete list of projects using the AGPL license: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AGPL_web_applications 16:55 davi "ClipperZ said it was transferring from Google Code to SourceForge because it wanted to use AGPL." 16:54 davi * [Article]: Google pays for Affero ban, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/11/google_bans_aero/ 16:54 davi About the Affero GPL license 16:54 davi Out of Topic 16:47 kf ah ok, wanted to ask about her filter bug, I closed it now, looked really ok to me 16:46 owen kf: I think she's traveling today 16:41 kf nengard: around? 16:26 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4438 major, P5, ---, henridamien, ASSIGNED, incorrect "Budget total exceeds period allocation" error when editing fund 16:26 kf bug 4438 again - cant delete owner without javascript, can't save with javascript :( 16:26 druthb heh, yeah. There was an article in the Post this week about imagining a DC without air conditioning--Congress would go home, like they used to a century ago, for three months, which means fewer nonsense laws passed... 16:24 atz and some congressmen 16:24 druthb nope. And nothing like West Texas' hopeless rednecks in DC--except for tourist visitors. 16:23 atz yeah, nothing like DC swamp humidity in west Texas! 16:23 druthb Doing well! Not so hot and muggy this week, which is nice. Even after a year, I'm still getting used to things, but I love living here. 16:22 atz hey, druthb. how's the east coast? 16:22 CGI105 I'm guessing no takers on the issue with printing barcodes...? 16:22 druthb hi, atz! 16:21 atz hey, owen. just thinking the same thing. haven't even crossed digital paths for a while 16:21 jwagner Hi atz, long time no see 16:21 owen Hi atz 16:20 atz greets all 16:20 kf hi atz 16:16 hdl Should come to the end of pages. 16:16 hdl for instance js loding is at the beginning of page. 16:16 CGI105 I'm running Koha 3.01 on Linux and am having difficulties when printing barcodes...calling for specific bibliographic information prevents the printable files from opening. Any suggestions? 16:16 hdl we should use Yslow to profile that a little bit. 16:15 owen Yeah the template changes in that patch make quite a mess. I don't know how else you could do it though 16:15 hdl kf: Koha is not optimized for javascript at the moment. 16:15 kf I m a bit worreid about performance with too much jquery 16:14 hdl kf: TMPL_UNLESS prefixing stuf is really a hassle to maintain and write to. 16:14 kf hdl: I'm using jquery now, it works nice, but I think configuration is a better way 16:14 hdl kf: I think that jquery could really ease the pain of display/hide. 16:13 kf I think it will not work with the new sys pref editor? 16:13 jwagner Not yet. It's on my latest cherrypick list. 16:13 hdl In fact, it was a specific dev for a customer. 16:13 owen jwagner: Have you tried using the patch? 16:13 jwagner I've never seen it come through -- I was reviewing my bug reports & noticed it. It's one I'd really like too. 16:13 hdl owen: no was not applied. 16:12 owen But actually I don't think it was pushed to rel_3_0 either. At least I don't see mention of it in any emails 16:12 kf I would really like that feature, working with jquery now 16:11 owen jwagner: It was for rel_3_0 16:09 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3656 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Specify fields to be omitted from the patron record 16:09 jwagner Bug 3656 -- there was a patch in September 2009 but it's never gone anywhere. Any particular reason? 15:55 sekjal I like the idea of two. that let's people compare Koha to Koha, and decide where they want to be release-wise 15:54 sekjal yeah, it made more sense to run off HEAD right now, with 3.2 so very close, and all that good code in there that people will need get comfortable with 15:53 kf yep 15:53 wizzyrea I think it would be neat to say "here's what you get in the tarball" and "here's what we're working on" 15:52 sekjal I'll talk to brendan about how we can rig it up once 3.2 is ready 15:52 wizzyrea if you don't mind 15:51 wizzyrea yea, let's do both 15:51 kf bywater++ 15:49 sekjal I don't see why not. 15:48 kf can we have both? :) 15:47 sekjal does anyone have an opinion on whether we should continue to track HEAD with the demo, after 3.2 is finalized, or should we stick with the stable release? 15:46 wizzyrea er, after I typed it 15:46 wizzyrea yea, I realized when I typed that, I should have been more accurate 15:45 kf koha demos :) 15:44 sekjal :) 15:44 kf bywater++ 15:44 munin kf: Karma for "bywater" has been increased 6 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 6. 15:44 kf @karma bywater 15:10 kf I tried to explain some things... plz ask 15:10 owen Thanks kf! 15:10 kf owen: mail sent 15:09 jcamins It would be preferable to support 8xx, but I don't think that's going to make it into 3.2. 15:09 jcamins ++ 15:08 owen jcamins: Any thoughts on the elimination of the @ind1=0 check in the absence of 8xx handling? 15:05 trea o/ 15:04 wizzyrea ooh, trea 15:01 kf without 15:01 kf but I hope the solution is flexible enough to work withoug 15:01 kf owen: we have a unique identifier to search with 15:00 kf owen: ah, we have records for traced series 14:58 kf ok, give me a minute 14:58 jcamins Actually, it looks like we have the indexing correct. 14:58 owen oleonard@myacpl.org 14:58 kf email? 14:57 jcamins I agree with that, but I think there are also implications for zebra indexing that might not have been addressed. 14:57 kf but my boss wrote the code, so I m not sure about the implementation 14:57 owen kf: I'd certainly be interested in seeing it 14:57 kf owen: I could send you our xslt file it that helps? I think it works in our catalog 14:56 wizzyrea http://blog.melchua.com/2010/07/13/what-foss-communities-can-look-like-from-the-outside/ interesting article 14:56 owen One commenter says "If we don't parse the 800-830 fields, then the @ind1=0 filter should be dropped, imo." 14:55 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2704 major, P3, ---, oleonard, NEW, 440 Display Issues 14:55 owen jcamins: I'm trying to figure out what the loose ends on Bug 2704 are 14:55 jcamins Fair enough. 14:54 owen As usual with MARC I'm a little sorry I asked ;) 14:54 jcamins ... at least if you're a cataloger. 14:54 jcamins It's a very serious problem. 14:54 jcamins Oh good. 14:54 owen That blog post and the comments on it are helpful too 14:53 jcamins Well that's problematic. 14:53 jcamins Right. 14:53 jcamins owen: Did my explanation help at all? 14:53 owen So the current version checks for indication that there is an 8xx tag even though there is no mechanism for display the 8xx tags :| 14:51 kf it's one... 14:51 kf its some of the things I had no time to work on :( 14:51 kf y 14:51 kf not sure how it was solved, but atm they do not displa 14:50 jcamins There's no way of marking the relationship between a given 490 and 8xx field, so displaying the 490 and searching on the 8xx is problematic. 14:50 kf I think its active in hfjs.bsz-bw.de 14:50 kf I have it on my todo list to write a patch 14:50 kf jcamins, owen: we had code to do this in our xslt 14:50 jcamins If it's set to 1, there's an 8xx with a traced form, which would be preferable from a linking point of view. 14:49 jcamins If it's set to 0, that means there is no alternate form. 14:49 jcamins Ind1 indicates whether there's a "traced" version of the heading. 14:49 jcamins Oh, sorry. 14:49 owen What does that have to do with [@ind1=0] ? 14:48 jcamins Well, kind of. 14:48 jcamins The 440 used to combine both those features. 14:48 jcamins But, since that's lousy authority control, we also have the option of "tracing" the heading, so that people can do left-anchored searches (in theory... I don't think Koha does this). That would go into the 830, and in principle each library should have an authority file so that the cataloger can figure out the proper form. 14:47 jcamins Basically, when we catalog a book that's in a series, we transcribe the *exact* wording into the 490. 14:47 jcamins That won't answer your question, but there's some debate for you. 14:46 jcamins http://bibwild.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/a-reasonable-display-for-series-data-in-marc/ 14:46 owen I have no idea what any of that means :) 14:46 jcamins Whether that is the correct behavior is open to some debate. 14:44 jcamins The 440 has been replaced by a 490/830 combination. 14:44 jcamins That is so that Koha will display the traced heading whenever possible. 14:44 jcamins I do know, actually. 14:43 owen Why the "[@ind1=0]" ? 14:43 owen Does anyone know why the opac detail's XSL file would use "marc:datafield[@tag=490][@ind1=0]" to display the 490 tag? 14:43 kf hm ok 14:37 owen Then the hints would be down off the screen when the entry form is displayed 14:36 kf perhaps place the hints under the calendar? 14:36 kf owen: I like the screenshot 14:19 kf yes, string freeze... 14:17 owen Thanks kf, I'm not in any rush 14:17 kf owen: I have to prepare for a presentation today, but can perhaps test on laptop later 14:01 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, Calendar widget cannot be translated 14:01 owen Patch submitted for Bug 2307, but I didn't test it with the translation script 13:56 kf preparing presentation now 13:56 kf owen: will try to write an enh request some time 13:51 owen Sounds like a neat idea 13:50 kf owen: had an idea yesterday, not sure if others would find it usefull, but for checkout it could be useful to enter something like +28 in sticky due date and make koha calculate the right date 13:50 CGI183 I guess I'll check back later 13:47 kf owen: sure :) 13:46 CGI183 I'm running it on Linux 13:43 CGI183 What options are there for platforms? (Sorry, I'm a novice at best) 13:43 CGI183 I'm running Koha 3.01 13:41 owen kf: Moving the calendar strings into calendar.inc seems to work okay from the point of view of the calendar's functionality. I'll submit a patch and maybe if you have time you could test it 13:40 owen CGI183: I don't know anything about it, but if you want help from someone who does you'll need to specify your platform and Koha version 13:40 CGI183 Can anyone help with the barcode/bibliographic info issues? 13:34 kf owen: sorry, phone call 13:33 CGI183 I am having issue when I try to print barcode labels with bibliographic info on them. Koha has options to do it but everytime I export the information into a PDF, only the barcode or the bibliographic info shows up but never both. Does anyone have any suggestions? 13:22 owen That's what the language configuration file looks like. It's not that big 13:22 owen http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=blob;f=koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/prog/en/lib/calendar/calendar-en.js;h=26b4c0c56cc8b83d249c5596d3487b4a2d774ed0;hb=master 13:22 owen Yes 13:21 kf in po files? 13:21 owen It may end up being easier to copy the language strings from calendar-en.js to calendar.inc so that they can be processed along with other strings 13:20 kf owen: how hard is it to add a translation file for the calendar? 13:17 jcamins Good morning, #koha 13:16 kf and old :( 13:16 kf thats a real bad translation bug 13:16 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2188 major, P3, ---, gmcharlt, REOPENED, Accounts.pm outputs untranslatable English strings 13:15 kf bug 2188 13:15 owen Just to be clear, the same issue comes up wherever there is a calendar popup 13:15 kf owen: hdl is right - there are other things with higher priority 13:15 hdl owen: access to holidays is not quite that frequent 13:14 owen I guess kf's librarians aren't complaining loudly either :) 13:13 hdl owen: there are so many critical demands that they don't 13:10 owen Don't they complain about that? :) 13:08 hdl no different calendar translation 13:07 owen hdl: Do you provide a different calendar translation for your libraries? Or do they get the English-language calendar? 13:04 owen Oh, because of "resolved remind" 13:04 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, P3, ---, oleonard, RESOLVED REMIND, Patch for international js-calendar 13:04 owen Here we go: Bug 2307. Assigned to me, even (why didn't it show up in my list?) 13:02 owen The calendar has it's own language file, but it only comes with the English version 12:58 kf that's good 12:58 kf the dates look ok, dd/mm/yyyy 12:57 owen Ah, yes you're right 12:57 kf hm perhaps when you add a weekly holiday 12:56 owen I see some English day of the week names in the Javascript, but I'm not sure they're output to the screen anywhere 12:56 kf ok 12:56 owen My work will address the explanations 12:56 kf ok 12:56 kf ah, stupid me 12:56 kf owen: yes, but there is a line of text at the bottom 12:56 kf the explanations (click on + when adding a new holiday) are not translatable either 12:55 owen The ? in the upper left 12:55 kf hm and is the "about the calendar" supposed to be a link? 12:55 owen Now that I think about it I think I saw one... 12:54 kf will you file a bug? 12:54 kf hm 12:53 kf only one of our libraries is trained to use the calendar, because they have hebrew holidays I know nothing about :) 12:53 kf perhaps a laguage file or something 12:52 owen I'm almost positive there is a way to change the language on the calendar 12:52 owen That's not what I was looking at, but I'm not surprised 12:52 kf the whole calendar is English 12:51 kf I have not filed a bug for this, but you are right, there are a lot of strings 12:50 kf owen: let me check 12:50 owen Well, maybe just a few 12:49 owen Is that something you've run into? 12:49 owen Hi kf, I've been doing some updates to tools/holidays.tmpl and it looks like there are a lot of untranslatable strings in the javascript 12:48 kf here 12:46 owen kf around? 12:25 jwagner Were we expecting something??? 12:20 owen I have nothing to report at this time. 12:19 owen Hi 12:19 druthb hi, owen 11:40 jwagner Hi kf 11:37 * kf waves to druthb 11:37 druthb hi, kf! 11:30 kf hi jwagner 11:23 kf hi again #koha 10:47 * chris is watching some tour de france before bed 10:38 kf hi chris 10:05 Ropuch Hi chris 09:51 chris evening 07:33 Ropuch Hi hdl 07:25 kf hi Ropuch and hdl 07:24 hdl hi kf 07:24 Ropuch Morning kf [; 07:22 kf morning koha 04:01 brendan not that I know of 03:43 SelfishMa ok, there any docs for those files? 03:41 brendan heh 03:41 brendan sorry not cool ;) 03:40 SelfishMa cool 03:40 brendan those are burned on the back on my eyelids 03:40 chris what he said :) 03:40 brendan those three files work in conjunction for building the indexes for zebra 03:40 brendan SelfishMa - try looking at the record.abs, bib1.att and ccl.properties 03:04 SelfishMa Think I may have figured part of it out but not certain 03:04 SelfishMa no worries 03:04 chris i just have to patch a server, and then ill find the files 03:03 chris and reindex 03:03 chris yeah if its zebra, then you need to edit some config files 03:02 SelfishMa chris: so, any ideas? 03:01 SelfishMa ha 03:01 chris :) 03:00 chris like that 03:00 chris we now have channel services 03:00 chris yes it did 03:00 SelfishMa hmm...why is my nick shortened? did the IRC server software change? 02:59 SelfishMa chris: yes 02:37 casper how can i enable thai language on the OPAC/ 01:48 chris SelfishMa: sorry for the late answer, you use zebra right? 01:46 brendan evening