Time  Nick            Message
00:57 chris_n2        g'night
00:57 chris           night
02:18 chris           @quote random
02:18 munin`          chris: Quote #39: "chris <chris> nope, ive made it my aim in life not to learn js or html" (added by ricardo at 06:00 PM, October 07, 2009)
02:18 chris           it's all true
02:18 pianohacker     so true
02:19 pianohacker     I continue to question your judgment in finding perl measurably better js than js, but it is true :)
02:19 chris           heh
02:19 pianohacker     gah, grammar *sigh*
02:19 pianohacker     should not be talking this late
02:20 pianohacker     how are you?
02:20 chris           good, had a long weekend so that was fun
02:20 chris           and glad the vote is all finished, even if people are making it more complex than it needs to be :)
02:21 pianohacker     "this arbitrarily complex math gives the exact same result as a straight reading of the results, but what the heck!"
02:21 chris           hehe yeah
02:22 pianohacker     that's right, it was labor day monday
02:23 chris           yes indeed
02:23 chris           nice weather for all 3 days too
02:23 pianohacker     do anything special, or just relax?
02:23 pianohacker     (blah, cold and snowy here)
02:23 chris           took kahu to the football(soccer) on sunday that was fun
02:24 pianohacker     cool
03:03 brendan         evening
03:08 Mehwish         Hello Every one.
03:09 Mehwish         Can anyone give me answers of a few questions regarding my Koha problems?
03:09 brendan         I can try
03:09 Mehwish         OK Thanks a lot..
03:10 Mehwish         I have upgraded my Koha from 3.02 to 3.04
03:10 Mehwish         now errors errors and only errors..
03:10 Mehwish         Problem is that I am sure I forgot to install some perl modules..
03:11 Mehwish         how can I veryfiy which modules are installed??
03:12 Mehwish         another now If I install those missing modules will it start working..??
03:13 Mehwish         I think not..I think I have to run make , make test and make install commands again after I install modules..
03:13 Mehwish         am I right or not?
03:13 Mehwish         just guide me where to start from?
03:14 brendan         I think you're on the right path
03:14 chris           nope you dont have to run those commands again
03:14 brendan         go ahead and install the missing perl modules
03:14 chris           if it is missing modules
03:14 Mehwish         I think I forgot to follow this step from my guide..
03:14 chris           then the apache error logs will be telling you so
03:14 Mehwish         sudo aptitude install \     liblingua-stem-perl libxml-sax-machines-perl libmarc-record-perl libcgi-session-perl \     libdate-pcalc-perl libdate-ical-perl libdate-manip-perl liblist-moreutils-perl \     libmarc-charset-perl libmarc-xml-perl libnet-ldap-server-perl libpdf-report-perl \     libpdf-reuse-barcode-perl libxml-csv-perl libtext-csv-perl libtext-iconv-perl \     libxml-dumper-perl libxml-libxml-common-perl libxml-filter
03:15 Mehwish         now these are a lot of modules and all are important..
03:15 chris           99% of those were in 3.0.2
03:15 chris           basically what you need to do is check the apache error logs, the main one in /var/log/apache2
03:15 chris           and the koha ones
03:16 chris           that will tell you the actual error
03:16 chris           can you have a look at those now?
03:16 chris           eg sudo tail -20 /var/log/apache2/error.log
03:17 Mehwish         I think errors are same as of my koha web installer..
03:18 Mehwish         wait
03:18 chris           if its something like this
03:18 Mehwish         when i type i get following.
03:18 chris           Can't locate UNIVERSAL/require.pm in @INC (@INC
03:18 chris           then its a missing module
03:18 Mehwish         Can't locate YAML.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/share/koha/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Search.pm line 31. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Search.pm line 31. Compilation failed in require at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Heading.pm line 25. BEGIN
03:18 chris           thats it, so you are missing the yaml module
03:19 Mehwish         yes exactly what u are telling..
03:19 Mehwish         [Mon Oct 26 00:32:56 2009] [error] [client] File does not exist: /var/www/HNAP1 [Mon Oct 26 00:33:00 2009] [error] [client] File does not exist: /var/www/TEADevInfo [Mon Oct 26 00:33:03 2009] [error] [client] File does not exist: /var/www/HNAP1 [Mon Oct 26 00:47:16 2009] [error] [client] File does not exist: /var/www/HNAP1 [Mon Oct 26 00:47:19 2009] [error] [client]
03:19 chris           sudo apt-get install libyaml-perl
03:19 Mehwish         and this is my error log
03:20 chris           yeah those errors dont look related to koha at all, but the missing YAML one is
03:20 chris           so if you do that apt-get
03:20 chris           then try again see what error you get next
03:21 Mehwish         OK
03:23 Mehwish         OK now only one error I see..
03:23 Mehwish         Can't locate IPC/Cmd.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/share/koha/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/install.pl line 15. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/install.pl line 15.
03:24 chris           cool
03:24 chris           lemme check if there is a package for that
03:24 Mehwish         OK
03:24 chris           nope
03:24 chris           so
03:24 chris           sudo CPAN IPC::Cmd
03:26 Mehwish         OK let me try that
03:42 Mehwish         plz Chris help me.. Shall I write this in CPAN shell "install CPAN IPC::Cmd"?
03:43 chris           nope
03:43 Mehwish         or only this "install IPC::Cmd"
03:43 chris           that one, but you shouldnt be in a  CPAN shell, if you typed the command i typed above,
03:43 chris           but if you are in a cpan shell, then install IPC::Cmd
03:44 Mehwish         OK
04:04 Mehwish         I have got success...
04:04 Mehwish         now it is showing ligin screen..
04:07 Mehwish         now I am getting error as Web Installer tried to update database ..
04:08 Mehwish         *  [Mon Oct 26 21:04:18 2009] updatedatabase.pl: DBD::mysql::db do failed: Duplicate entry 'AllowRenewalLimitOverride' for key 1 at /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/data/mysql/updatedatabase30.pl line 416.     * [Mon Oct 26 21:04:19 2009] updatedatabase.pl: DBD::mysql::db do failed: Duplicate key name 'issn' at /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/installer/data/mysql/updatedatabase30.pl line 443.     * [Mon Oct 26 21:0
04:10 Mehwish         Now What Should I do??
05:45 brendan         evening
05:46 pianohacker     good evening
05:46 pianohacker     fairly typical for me, but later than I usually see you :)
05:46 irma            hi all
05:46 pianohacker     hello
05:49 irma            I am writing a short article about Koha and find myself stuck ... I wish to include the link to the Koha 3.0.4 download but wish not to explain why it's @ http://koha-fr.org/content/diffusion-koha-version-304 .... any suggestions?
05:49 brendan         hey pianohacker
05:49 brendan         hey irma
05:49 irma            It's an "Introduction to Koha" type of article...
05:50 irma            g'day Brendan
05:50 irma            g'day pianohacker
05:51 pianohacker     even if you don't want to excoriate liblime, you could simply mention that the project has had a few minor difficulties with getting a working download up
05:51 brendan         maybe something like "due to complications with site permissions - the download link wasn't able to make it's appearance on the correct spot"
05:52 * pianohacker   is tempted to change nick to mate, if you're going to greet us like that
05:53 irma            download.koha.org .. currently hijacked???
05:55 brendan         currently hijacked I believe is the lastest news
05:55 irma            what ever I say counteracts all the positives I have said about Koha somewhat...
05:55 chris           well the file is at download.koha.org
05:55 chris           now
05:55 brendan         cool
05:56 chris           but neither the RM or release maintainer have access to put them there, they have to wait for someone from liblime to do it
05:56 irma            phew that is good progress and timing for me
05:56 chris           well its not really progress at all, but at least the file there the _fixed one
05:56 chris           is current
05:57 chris           it means that you can just not mention the fact that the 2 people who should have access dont
05:57 irma            oh.. sorry. Being too positive here. I thought you might be the bearer of goods news that the RM had regainined access !!!
05:58 chris           no
05:58 irma            But thanks Chris for your news. I shall just link to download.koha.org in the article
05:59 chris           there is no sign that they will, as the current story is since liblime has stuff on that box too its too dangerous
05:59 chris           which means that download.koha.org needs to move somewhere where that isnt the case
06:00 chris           but that would mean liblime engaging with the community, which i give a .0001% chance of happening
06:01 irma            HLT as 1st choice in the survey is great. New possibilities ....
06:02 chris           well not really :)
06:02 * chris         is full of pessimism :)
06:03 chris           i cant see liblime handing over their community property
06:03 pianohacker     you're a pessimist? really?
06:03 chris           but it will be an opportunity for some finality
06:04 chris           as when they dont, we can finally move on
06:04 pianohacker     yeah, definitely resting on Jo and kado's shoulders at this point
06:04 brendan         anyone ask you for a translation for the message you sent to the mailing list in maori
06:05 chris           wizzyrea did
06:05 chris           basically it was
06:05 chris           "why would we choose one of those, were you joking?"
06:05 pianohacker     what could we do to move on? (I ask, as a bright eyed youngster who is getting thoroughly tired of software politics)
06:06 brendan         wizzyrea++
06:06 chris           pick a domain name, put the site there, and get on with our lives
06:06 brendan         I choose -- koha"is"awesome.org
06:06 chris           its not ideal, there are lots of links to the .koha.org domains
06:07 pianohacker     would ownership of the trademark if not the active domain cause troubles in the future?
06:07 chris           but it would allow us to be able to go back to being able to actually do things like put up links to the latest release, and put the latest release up etc
06:08 pianohacker     brendan: quotation marks and everything, like the toys'r'us logo?
06:08 brendan         the thing with a trademark -- is that it costs a lot of money to inforce a trademark
06:08 chris           i dont think even liblime are crazy enough to try and enforce the trademark
06:08 chris           against the community
06:08 brendan         I mean a lot of money to get into that battle
06:08 pianohacker     makes sense
06:08 chris           if they think they are getting bad press now, think about what would happen if they did that
06:09 irma            Sorry for interrupting but what is the link to the libraries currently using Koha? Thank you...
06:09 pianohacker     SCO is a wonderful example of how truly _that_ can blow up in your face, yes
06:09 brendan         I put the quotes in because "is" isn't strong enough in my mind -- needs an equal sign, probably
06:09 chris           yeah
06:10 brendan         koha=awesome.org
06:10 chris           irma: marshall breedings libwebcat is the  best one
06:10 chris           http://www.librarytechnology.org/libwebcats/
06:11 pianohacker     irma: depends on what you want; libwebcats http://www.librarytechnology.org/libwebcats/ is indeed good, though it has koha under several categories depending on vendor
06:11 irma            Chris: thanks
06:11 * chris         has to go play with my son before bed, bbiab
06:11 pianohacker     http://koha.org/showcase is perhaps a bit prettier, though not as complete
06:11 pianohacker     see ya, chris
06:25 brendan         oh man -- we lost munin
06:39 irma            pianohacker, brendan & chris: thanks for the links and help ... ciao.
06:39 pianohacker     np, good night
06:39 brendan         later irma
06:42 thd             chris: has the moon gone to sleep?
06:50 pianohacker     good night, all
06:53 chris           back
06:56 chris           thd: yep all the kids in bed
06:57 Ropuch          Morning #koha
06:58 thd             good morning Ropuch
06:59 thd             chris: Why would circulation be using XML?
07:00 chris           because the item data is in the marc
07:01 chris           so it parses the xml, then it needs to update it also
07:01 chris           marc_xml on biblioitems
07:02 chris           basically its a flawed implementation, the idea always was that the item table was the canonical place for item data
07:02 thd             kados had told me that there had been an agreement that the SQL tables would be primary for items data and that storing the data in MARC would be secondary
07:02 chris           yes there was
07:02 chris           but that isnt the way it got written
07:03 chris           basically cos of zebra
07:03 chris           and the rebuild_zebra.pl script
07:03 thd             Well I understood that early experiments had found no significant performance problem with using XML for circulation
07:04 chris           must have been fairly flawed expirements :)
07:04 chris           some simple profiling shows that parsing the xml is the most time consuming part of the circulation code
07:04 thd             I think the expectation had been that it could never work
07:05 thd             The fact that it was possible in real time led to it being considered a good choice
07:05 thd             Later there was a change of view but perhaps then no one rewrote that code
07:06 chris           it was never considered a good idea by a lot of people
07:06 chris           myself and hdl included
07:06 chris           i was unaware that the idea that the itemdata be stored in the sql table had been dropped until after the fact
07:07 chris           it wasnt until i was getting complaints that it was slow, that i did profiling (as did hdl) to find out where the slowness was
07:07 chris           hence fixing it for 3.4
07:08 thd             XML code does not seem to be directly included in C4::Circulation.pm
07:11 chris           my $biblio = GetBiblioFromItemNumber($item->{itemnumber});
07:12 thd             that is calling C4::Items.pm ?
07:14 chris           C4::Biblio
07:14 chris           the big one is actually ModItem, in Items.pm
07:14 chris           which does things like
07:14 chris           my $new_item_marc = _marc_from_item_hash($whole_item, $frameworkcode, $unlinked_item_subfields)                           or die "FAILED _marc_from_item_hash($whole_item, $frameworkcode)";
07:14 chris           and
07:15 chris           _replace_item_field_in_biblio($new_item_marc, $biblionumber, $itemnumber, $frameworkcode);
07:16 chris           which in turn does
07:16 chris           $completeRecord->append_fields($itemField);
07:16 chris           }
07:16 chris
07:16 chris           # save the record
07:16 chris           ModBiblioMarc($completeRecord, $biblionumber, $frameworkcode);
07:16 chris           so a bunch of mucking round with marc objects and parsing them to and from xml
07:17 thd             There is still value in having holdings data in MARC, although, it need not be real time circulation information.
07:18 chris           yep, doing it in real time while issuing and returning is the bad bit, not the storing it in xml
07:19 thd             Holdings data at least of long term value would be better in separate holdings records than in the bibliographic record.
07:19 chris           yes, and it should be in a format that is super fast to update
07:20 thd             It should be possible to give a separate bar code for every issue of a periodical for years without concern about breaking the MARC limits.
07:20 thd             ...for maximum MARC record size.
07:21 chris           basically im more concerned about making circulation fast than i am about MARC, since customers complain loudly when they have to wait in line
07:21 chris           and complaining customers = less funding = libraries closing
07:21 thd             yes exactly
07:22 thd             good morning nicomo
07:22 chris           hi nicomo
07:22 nicomo          hi thd and chris and #koha
07:22 brendan         heya nicomo
07:22 thd             chris: can this statement from C4::Search.pm be true?
07:23 thd             # 'available' is defined as (items.onloan is NULL) and (items.itemlost = 0)
07:23 brendan         thd -- I thought that marcxml limit wasn't any greater than MARC limit
07:23 brendan         IIRC
07:23 chris           brendan: yep it is, the iso2709 standard has a size limit .. marcxml doesnt
07:23 thd             brendan: There should be no MARCXML limit.
07:23 brendan         right thanks
07:24 chris           thd: hmmm no that isnt right i dont think, i think there are more conditions than those 2
07:24 thd             brendan: the problem is that MARC::File:XML calls MARC::Record to do the real work instead of some XML parser.
07:25 thd             chris: yes so that comment must be an old one which was never corrected
07:33 thd             chris: Does items.withdrawn mean removed from the collection or is it a synonym for items.onloan?
07:34 chris           nope it means removed from collection
07:35 thd             that is what I had thought
07:36 thd             I do find other uses of the word withdrawn to mean issued as a loan but without referring to items.withdrawn
07:36 thd             or at least I hope they were not referring to items.withdrawn
07:37 chris           :)
07:38 thd             Does items.damaged also imply not available instead of merely damage noted?
07:39 chris           yes
07:40 thd             Items.damaged implies being repaired or held for safekeeping as too fragile?
07:40 chris           either of those, shouldnt be able to be circulated though
07:41 chris           im unsure any of these are used in the current code, i have to do an audit
07:41 thd             There are some checks for them
07:42 thd             The librarian can change the flag by simply editing the item.
07:42 chris           cool
07:42 magnusenger     chris, thd: these are the kinds of questions i was pondering while i did my first migration recently. I think different libraries would interpret these things differently. i definitely felt a need for some definitions and rules, especially since its difficult to know how the code treats these values
07:43 chris           i used to know exactly how they all worked, but not anymore, i need to read the code to find out
07:44 thd             magnusenger: I assumed that I knew the answers but I have wondered.
07:44 chris           in the olden days, if any of those flags were set, they couldnt be issued
07:44 chris           i hope that is still the case
07:45 thd             magnusenger: I had not had time to answer some of your questions about bibliographic frameworks on the koha-devel list
07:45 magnusenger     thd: made me wonder too! :-)
07:46 magnusenger     thd: i forgot the questions... ;-)
07:46 thd             magnusenger: all those values are mapped to a presumed subfield name corresponding to MARC 21 usage where available in MARC 21 frameworks.  Yet I had never looked at some of the corresponding code
07:46 hdl_laptop      hi chris
07:47 chris           hi hdl_laptop
07:47 chris           did you see my proposal for 3.4 hdl_laptop ?
07:48 thd             chris ++ for proposal
07:48 hdl_laptop      irma around ?
07:49 magnusenger     there is some info about the 952 fields here: http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.0/cataloging/item-fields-data-migration
07:49 chris           she has gone hdl_laptop
07:50 thd             magnusenger: why is it that Norwegian libraries catalogue DVDs as books in the NORMARC leader?
07:50 magnusenger     thd: i don't think they are supposed to?
07:51 thd             magnusenger: yes but my research shows that to be the prevalent case
07:51 magnusenger     thd: i think some ILSs might "forget" the leader in favour of our "very own" 019$b, which encodes format
07:52 thd             magnusenger: really, did I miss that in the NORMARC documentation?
07:52 magnusenger     thd: I have also seen that the largest public library encodes everything as books in the leader
07:52 hdl_laptop      chris: where is your proposal ?
07:52 thd             magnusenger: I only test very large catalogues
07:52 magnusenger     thd: nope, it's not in there. it's an extension made by Biblioteksentralen, the largest seller of catalogue records!
07:53 chris           hdl_laptop: linked from http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:roles3.4
07:53 magnusenger     thd: They have their very own dialect of MARC, called BSMARC
07:54 hdl_laptop      chris quite sensible proposals
07:54 magnusenger     thd: it's defined in a PDF in Norwegian here: http://www.bibsent.no/pdf/bsmarc_utgave_3_8_2008.pdf
07:54 chris           yeah they all are good i thought
07:55 hdl_laptop      I had already seen them.
07:56 hdl_laptop      What is quite hard is QA management.
07:56 hdl_laptop      At the moment, It really is the main problem
07:56 chris           yep, colin's proposal sounds good to me, and he is the first volunteer we have had in a while for it
07:56 hdl_laptop      We need automated webbased tests
07:57 thd             magnusenger: What is the relation between BSMARC and NORMARC?
07:57 hdl_laptop      And Colin has not mentioned taht
07:57 magnusenger     thd: i think BS is a subset of NOR, with at least the addition of 019$b
07:58 chris           yep, but i dont see that as a reason to reject the proposal, since he is the only one who has volunteered for qa manager in years
07:58 hdl_laptop      We also need some infrastructure in order to test with manipulating system preferences.
07:58 thd             magnusenger: Where is BSMARC typically used?
07:58 hdl_laptop      chris I havenot said I would "reject".
07:59 hdl_laptop      But it still is not enough.
07:59 magnusenger     thd: public libraries, that buy their records from Biblioteksentralen ("The library central")
08:00 chris           hdl_laptop: i think its a fine start, and others are welcome to do their own proposals
08:01 chris           if he actually achieves half of his goals, that is more than any other QA manager n the 10 years of koha has done
08:05 chris           hi francharb
08:05 chris           and hi paul_p
08:05 paul_p          hi chris
08:05 francharb       hi chris
08:05 hdl_laptop      chris well, I am gratefull to Collin to throw his hat on that.
08:06 paul_p          ads about win7 on french TV those days (and a very poor one. Should I say 'ridiculous' ?)
08:06 hdl_laptop      But I also know it IS tough job.
08:06 chris           hdl_laptop: yes, no one has managed to do it yet, so im very happy that he has volunteered
08:07 hdl_laptop      he'll need assistance (I think) And also has to write guidance on wiki for developers to be able to conform to his goals.
08:08 chris           yep
08:31 kf              good morning
08:32 chris           hiya kf
08:32 kf              hi chris :)
08:35 Ropuch          Hello kf
08:35 kf              hi Ropuch
09:16 paul_p          owen++
09:16 paul_p          (for his wonderful templating stuff)
09:16 paul_p          opac adv search really flexible with css
12:09 chris_n         g'morning
12:10 chris_n         paul_p: ridiculous is the correct word (especially with M$)
12:45 chris_n         confusion already over which tar to download
12:47 owen            Thanks for fielding that one chris_n
12:47 owen            What a pain to have to deal with this mess.
12:48 chris_n         I think that hdl_laptop had requested the bad one be pulled already
13:25 magnusenger     chris_n: so he did: http://www.nabble.com/version-3.0.4-on-download.koha.org-td26057316.html#a26057316
13:54 tajoli          hi
13:55 tajoli          Is nahuel.angelinetti on-line ?
13:55 nahuel          of course :)
13:55 tajoli          I have a question about your patch [PATCH] Fix normal opac view 26 Oct 2009 16:59
13:56 tajoli          Is it for 3.0.4 or for 3.2 ?
13:57 nahuel          3.04
13:57 nahuel          3.0.4 at least
13:57 nahuel          perhaps on 3.2 I didn't tested
13:58 tajoli          Ok, I insert it in my 3.04 installation
13:58 tajoli          thank you
13:58 nahuel          you're walcome
13:59 nahuel          welcome
13:59 nahuel          :)
13:59 kf              nahuel: I have a question too - you have a moment? need the bug number for my question
13:59 nahuel          of course :)
13:59 nahuel          as hdl say, don't ask to ask, just ask :)
14:00 kf              bug 3446
14:00 kf              hm munin is still missing :(
14:01 nahuel          i'm munin :p
14:01 nahuel          http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3446
14:01 kf              we have a general problems with notices, as we want to set fines and send notices on the same day according to calendar
14:01 kf              and send different notices for 1st 2nd and 3rd notice
14:01 kf              do you still plan on adding this notice count?
14:04 kf              I think it would be a great help, not sure how to find out if a user already got a notice otherwise, message_queue is complicated when its not send by email to the patron but to the library
14:04 wizzyrea        munin was about yesterday
14:04 wizzyrea        gr
14:05 kf              nahuel? still there? :)
14:05 nahuel          still :)
14:05 nahuel          2s
14:06 nahuel          but kf, koha manages 3 levels of overdues
14:06 kf              it does, but they are not in time with fines
14:06 nahuel          ah
14:06 kf              what we want to do is send notices after x opening days
14:06 nahuel          ah
14:06 kf              and set fines after x opening days
14:07 kf              its not possible to have notices and fines on the same time line right now, and I think fines are just skipped, when there is a holiday, with fine interval of 7 days this is not a nice thing
14:08 kf              and my colleague will try to program something in perl to do it like that
14:08 nahuel          you should send the patch :p
14:08 nahuel          hehe
14:08 kf              and we were discussing how and where to find the information needed and I found your bug :)
14:08 nahuel          As I know, we have no plan to do this
14:08 kf              when we get it working we will
14:08 nahuel          no one of our client asked it
14:08 kf              ah ok
14:09 nahuel          hmmm else for you patch
14:09 nahuel          Yes you can add a column to the issue table
14:09 kf              you think this would get added to koha?
14:09 nahuel          but this kind of modification should be only for 3.2
14:09 nahuel          yes of course!
14:09 nahuel          all great ideas are welcome
14:09 nahuel          3.2 or 3.4
14:09 nahuel          because 3.2 will be released soon
14:10 kf              I think it will be 3.4, as we are in feature freeze now
14:10 kf              but we dont want to have local customization in our koha (painful experiences with our old system)
14:11 kf              so we will try to get everything into koha that we do :)
14:11 nahuel          héhé cool
14:11 nahuel          And a really great news for 3.4
14:12 nahuel          We will migrate to template toolkit !
14:12 kf              its just a plan right now, but we need to get it working somehow
14:12 nahuel          Html template pro is a big pain
14:12 kf              I dont know if this is great news - will it mean rewriting all templates?
14:12 nahuel          Yes it mean rewriting all templates, but it means have more feature
14:12 kf              I have no experience with template toolkit and did only very small template changes so far
14:12 nahuel          lesser translation problems
14:12 nahuel          etc...
14:12 kf              lesser translation problems is a plus .)
14:13 nahuel          Template::Toolkit is really similar as django templates, or smarty
14:13 kf              always have a list with typos and things to correct on my desk
14:14 kf              in fact I know near to nothing about templating - but willing to learn
14:15 kf              ok, but about 3446 - you will not add it but think its a good idea - right? :) so I will talk to my colleague if we are able to make a change like that
14:16 nahuel          It's a good idea :)
14:17 kf              thx for your time nahuel
14:17 nahuel          like tajoli, you're welcome
14:58 owen            Is this correct? "The z3950search will NOT work until your system administrator has activated the z3950 client daemon on your server. The daemon is in KohaDirectory/script/z3950daemon"
14:58 owen            I don't seem to have a /script/ directory
15:01 slef            that's 2.x
15:01 slef            maybe even only 2.0 and early 2.2
15:02 slef            where did you spot that?
15:02 owen            http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.2/administration/additional-parameters/z39.50-servers
15:02 owen            and http://koha.org/documentation/manual/3.0/administration/additional-parameters/z39.50-servers
15:02 slef            hrm, a bug for nengard
15:02 slef            I think we can't edit that?
15:02 slef            would welcome comments on bug 3732
15:02 slef            is the bot not back?
15:03 owen            Left again last night I think
15:03 slef            anyone got its config backed up?  I miss it.
15:03 slef            http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3732 field lengths and multi-line boxes
15:03 owen            gmcharlt said he might host it himself if we continued to have problems with it
15:04 slef            ok, but having the config backed up would be good, so whoever wanted to could step in easily to cover future problems
15:05 * owen          wonders why he didn't get an email from the bugzilla list about bug 3732
15:05 slef            only just created it
15:05 owen            Oh, I misread the date
15:07 owen            slef: What is the correct procedure for getting the z3950 daemon running?
15:08 Bar             Has anyone ever seen a problem with Patron searching where a search term, with many hits, only displays the first hit? e.g surname McCarthy has 75 Patrons but the results only show one?
15:11 wizzyrea        we've had the opposite problem, where say, you type in heather heath and you get all of the heathers and all of the heaths, but heather heath is not on the first 20 results pages
15:12 Bar             Strange. Just reading through the search.pl file now to see if there is anything worth tweaking in there
15:13 schuster        I was reading the threads from earlier - and Chris talks about the items NOT coming out of the MARC for 3.2 is that still the case?  I was hopefull that it would resolve some of our slow checkouts when a teacher has 50 items and they are checking out another book that every teacher is getting.
15:14 schuster        Sometimes it takes over a minute for that one transaction to checkout that book.
15:14 owen            I think that must be fore 3.4?
15:14 schuster        hmmm...  It used to be for 3.2 so that changed someplace drat.
15:14 owen            I don't know schuster, I could be wrong.
15:15 owen            No, looking at chris's RM proposal, he mentions getting XML out of circulation code.
15:15 kf              I think gmcharlt said he wanted to to this, perhaps a time problem?
15:15 slef            owen: sorry, what z3950 daemon?
15:15 schuster        again phewie.
15:15 wizzyrea        schuster: maybe that's not part of our 3.2?
15:16 chris           OMG
15:16 wizzyrea        OMG indeed
15:16 wizzyrea        you're awake?
15:16 owen            chris, go back to bed it's not worth it!
15:16 slef            chris!  what's 3.0.x-fixes on gitorious for and can I pollute it? ;-)
15:16 * wizzyrea      hypnotizes Chris... you are getting very sleepy...
15:17 wizzyrea        your eyes are getting heavy
15:17 wizzyrea        your pillow is calling your  name
15:17 chris           heheh
15:17 wizzyrea        Chrisssssss.... sleeeep...
15:17 wizzyrea        :)
15:18 schuster        chris - so the bug wrangler would watch the git and communicate with the release manager or would the release manager contact the bug wrangler when something has been submitted etc???
15:18 owen            schuster: Sorry, chris isn't allowed to talk he has to go to bed
15:18 slef            owen: are you talking about the 2.x era z3950 client daemon or the 3.x era koha-zebra daemon?
15:19 schuster        ;)
15:19 owen            slef: I'm just trying to get my z39.50 searches working :)
15:19 slef            owen: 3.x doesn't need a z3950 daemon for z3950 searching.
15:19 owen            slef: It's my first try managing my own install
15:19 slef            owen: do you know if the firewall is OK?
15:20 owen            slef: No, I'm not sure about that. What should I look for?
15:20 slef            owen: could try a search with yaz-client from a ssh command-line, but remember to auth before you open.
15:20 slef            looking for info
15:21 slef            nothing obvious on wiki, checking coop
15:22 schuster        Make sure your firewall allows the out going and incoming from the appropriate ports.  I can't use Z39.50 searching from our server because we only allow traffic on ports 80 and 8080
15:22 owen            Heh, second Google result for "yaz client command line" is from kete.net.nz
15:22 kf              owen: when you get no results with your z39.50 maybe the port is missing in the firewall
15:23 slef            owen:
15:23 slef            yaz-client
15:23 slef            auth username password (if you have them)
15:23 slef            open server.name.domain:port
15:23 slef            base databasename
15:23 slef            f test
15:24 slef            then s to show records, one at a time, and q to quit
15:26 owen            Thanks slef. All that worked perfectly: results came up fine.
15:27 slef            ok, so what doesn't work?
15:29 owen            Well, now I have to apologize for the false alarm: it seems z39.50 searches from within Koha *are* working...
15:29 owen            Did I just pick all the wrong things to search for at first? :(
15:29 slef            heh, maybe... or maybe it was a heisenbug
15:29 slef            http://foldoc.org/heisenbug
15:39 chris_n         hehe
15:40 * chris_n       thinks that the uncertainty principle applies well to some sorts of food.... they alter their composition when you go to taste them
15:46 wizzyrea        lol
16:01 jdavidb         Howdy, folks.
16:02 wizzyrea        hey jdavidb
16:03 kf              hi jdavidb
16:05 jdavidb         :D   How's things, Liz?
16:06 jdavidb         Hi, kf!
16:06 wizzyrea        things are good :) how's your trip?
16:07 jdavidb         owen++  #RT: @oleonard Bring it.
16:07 chris_n         ehlo jdavidb
16:08 jdavidb         So far so good.  this cgi thing is really laggy.  jwagner is teaching INCOLSA about jquery.  :)
16:08 schuster        Ah word is out INCOLSA...  I've heard rumors.
16:08 schuster        owen still around?
16:08 owen            yes
16:09 schuster        Did you have a chance to think about my multi-pac setup and those predefined searches we were talking about last week?
16:09 jdavidb         yes, schuster...they're our customer.  Great folks.
16:10 owen            Sorry schuster no, it got buried.
16:10 schuster        I figured, just thought I'd ask thanks for the update!
16:10 schuster        no problem owne
16:10 schuster        owen sorry.
16:11 jdavidb         I'm counting the number of time owen's name gets dropped in this whole templates/jquery discussion jwagner is doing.
16:12 wizzyrea        well he is a wizard
16:12 owen            Is she handing out my phone # and home address? I'll set an extra place or two at the table.
16:14 owen            My wife would love that: a dinner party where we only discussed jquery and html ;)
16:14 wizzyrea        hehe
16:15 jdavidb         No, she hasn't done that..    yet.
16:21 kf              owen is really great, you can change things everywhere really easily. and Im falling in love with jquery
16:22 kf              I added a screen keyboard for hebrew to our catalog today, using only sysprefs, a famfamfam icon, javascript/jquery, html and css :)
16:39 kf              time to go home - bye #koha
16:49 ccurry          Hello, all.
16:53 ccurry          I'm looking for a way to use koha to run a global update on a particular MARC field.  Is this possible?  I see that the MARC records are stored as a blob in the biblioitems table, so I can't use MySQL queries to edit the data.  The ILS we're migrating from had an issue with the 008 field being stored in the wrong place in the database and it won't export, so we need to splice this information into
16:53 ccurry          the records.  I'm trying to determine the best place to do this.  The old ILS runs on MSSQL, which I have no experience with, so I was hoping to make the change once the data is in koha.
17:07 slef            ccurry: Is it a Blob or a text field?
17:08 ccurry          longblob, according to MySQL
17:19 ccurry          I must be off; lunch calls me, but if anyone has a tip for me please email it to ccurry@amphilsoc.org?  Thanks.
17:23 jdavidb         Howdy again.
17:30 * mdhafen       is looking for someone with more Perl experience than he has.
17:30 mdhafen         I'm trying to squash a log message cause by 'use warnings'
17:32 mdhafen         Can anyone spot the uninitialized variable in this bit of code?  foreach ( keys %$attribs ) { exists $$attribs{ $_ } && $$attribs{ $_ } =~ s/\s*$//; }
17:33 mdhafen         not variable, the log message says uninitialized value.  Sorry about that.
17:37 mdhafen         anyone... anyone...
17:38 chris           it will be $$attribs{ $_ }
17:39 mdhafen         ok, but doesn't the exists() check take care of that?
17:39 chris           nope
17:39 chris           that checks if it exists, not if it has a value
17:39 chris           so the key exists
17:39 chris           but the value associated with that key in the hash doesnt
17:39 mdhafen         ah, now I see the difference.
17:40 chris           also i hate the implicit variable
17:40 chris           fwiw :-)
17:40 mdhafen         :)  You will probably never see this code in production, so don't worry about it ;)
17:40 chris           :)
17:41 chris           and even after 2.5 hours more sleep my OMG from before still stands wizzyrea  :)
17:51 chris           slef: you about?
17:55 slef            chris: intermittently.
17:55 slef            chris: did you see me ask what is gitorious 3.0.x-fixes for?
17:55 chris           the 3.0.x-fixes was the branch hdl and i were using to cherry-pick stuff from master to 3.0.x
17:55 chris           it then was merged over to 3.0.x
17:56 slef            so dormant branch now?  Should I use it or branch anew?
17:56 chris           so yep, you could rebase it, and use it to bring over your fixes
17:56 slef            rebase or pull?
17:56 chris           choice is yours
17:57 slef            ok ta
17:57 slef            did you want me for something else?
17:57 chris           nope that was it
18:00 owen            Who could have guessed download.koha.org was only for historical purposes?
18:01 slef            oh no
18:01 slef            they didn't write that?
18:02 owen            "download.koha.org is a site that LibLime created to provide a historical archive of Koha releases done to date"
18:02 owen            says Josh
18:02 chris           pompous_asses--
18:02 chris           PEI_schools++
18:04 slef            PEI?
18:05 chris           Prince Edward Island
18:05 slef            Pei may refer to:;Places: Prince Edward Island, a province of Canada, Pei, Tibet, a town in Tibet, Pei County, a county in Xuzhou, Jiangsu, China
18:05 chris           http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/index.cfm?sid=297278&sc=98
18:06 chris           ccurry: re your question earlier
18:07 slef            chris: http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/search.pl?channel=koha&nick=kados&q="download.koha.org" returns invalid XML
18:07 chris           what format does your data come out of your old system as?
18:07 ccurry          .mrc
18:07 chris           in that case i would use MarcEdit
18:07 chris           to do your changes
18:07 chris           then import that fixed file to koha
18:08 chris           slef: take it up with moritz lenz :)
18:09 chris           or i could fix it and send him a patch i guess :) thanks for the heads up
18:09 slef            let me know where... oh OK
18:12 chris           ccurry: marcedit has some great bulk editing features
18:13 ccurry          chris: Thanks.  I've been trying to think of a way to do this with MarcEdit, but I'm not sure it's is sophisticated enough to handle what we need to do.  We'd have to add different data in the 008 fields based on some sort of unique id and I haven't yet found a tool in MarcEdit that does this.  I've been playing around with the scriptwizard to see if I could use it, but I haven't figured it...
18:13 ccurry          ...out yet (and it only works for tab delimited files?).
18:13 ccurry          chris: can you recommend a particular tool/feature that would be suited to this type of operation?
18:13 chris           hmmm
18:14 chris           well one way is to use marcedit to convert your marc to text
18:14 chris           (it can roundtrip it)
18:14 chris           then use sed, or a perl script to do your changes, and then convert back to marc
18:15 * chris         has had to resort to that before
18:15 chris           but now i have to go feed my son breakfast
18:16 chris           he is yelling "Get some nuts!!!" which is toddler speak for i want peanut butter toast
18:16 chris           bbiab
18:16 ccurry          chris: thanks.  I'll look into it.
18:16 ccurry          good luck with the peanut butter toast.
18:16 owen            lol, "Get some nuts!!!"
18:17 schuster        One word of caution is that when I have exported my MARC database from Koha in the authoritized fields it was putting a number, I suspect the authority number for that heading so they don't export cleanly.  I have not tried to reload them to see what it does.
18:17 schuster        Some people gave me a couple of things to try, but it dropped to the bottom of my list of things to do.
18:22 chris           owen: i blame snickers adverts
18:22 chris           toast is in the toaster
18:33 slef            http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/2008-08-23#i_229850 and http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/2008-06-24#i_220974
18:34 wizzyrea        omg get some nuts
18:36 chris           slef: wanna post those to the thread? :)
18:37 wizzyrea        well crap
18:37 wizzyrea        oh, that will go over well
18:37 wizzyrea        he loves me :P
18:37 wizzyrea        <sarcasm>
18:38 chris           heh
18:38 chris           peanut butter toast and blues clues, my work here is done
18:39 * wizzyrea      envisions chris dusting off his crumby hands
18:39 chris           heh
18:39 wizzyrea        hehe sorry
18:39 slef            chris: I'm pondering http://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2008-January/012900.html
18:40 chris           oh yeah there was an alpha, a beta, an rc1
18:40 chris           none of which are on download.koha.org
18:41 chris           it actually was the bullying of HDL that i objected, i expect him to dissemble these days
18:50 schuster        some times you feel like a nut, sometimes you dont MOUNDS!
18:50 schuster        Almond Joy...
18:55 chris           ok off to work, bbl
19:01 slef            chris: alpha and beta just appeared
19:01 slef            is a release candidate a release?  go ask #philosophy
19:02 wizzyrea        ugh... you know what's funny
19:03 wizzyrea        it used to be that his clients got mad at him for spending too much time with the community
19:03 wizzyrea        now I'm mad because he's spending too much time fighting with the community
19:04 owen            At least we're /told/ his clients got mad at him for spending time with the community
19:04 wizzyrea        I don't have a problem with him spending (his staff's) time helping the community, at all
19:04 schuster        Well when we had problems that they wouldn't address or logs that people wouldn't look at that did make me a little perturbed.
19:04 wizzyrea        I do take issue with him fighting and being petty re: the community
19:08 owen            Welcome, Koha Express customers, to the community your vendor doesn't believe in. :(
19:10 brendan         afternoon everyone
19:10 sekjal          afternoon, brendan
19:10 schuster        was there a new post someplace that I missed?
19:11 owen            schuster: I'm just reading the "Question about Migration of data" post to the Koha list
19:11 owen            "We just purchased Koha Express..."
19:17 schuster        OK I usually read that in digest the next day...
19:19 owen            Not that I don't think they should be coming to the community for help, I just wish we could get some respect from the vendor that's sending them to us.
19:20 brendan         owen++
19:23 slef            erm, remind me: what's "Koha Express"?  LibLime's cloud-hosted one?
19:24 owen            It's their "turnkey" no-frills, no services version.
19:24 slef            is it a released version?
19:24 owen            "based on the official Koha Community software releases"
19:25 owen            Not exactly sure what that means, but I'm assuming it's not LEK.
19:25 * slef          browses www.liblime.com
19:25 sekjal          I think Koha Express is a no-Zebra installation of Koha 3.0.2
19:25 slef            "based on" - who's going to ask for the version number?
19:25 sekjal          http://www.liblime.com/products/koha
19:26 owen            sekjal: Have you heard something about no-Zebra? I don't see it in the description.
19:27 slef            $299 per year?  If that's no-Zebra, it compares badly with our one-off fee.
19:28 sekjal          I am interpretting "less than 75,000 records" to mean that, since "Koha Community" is billed at having support for tens of millions of records.
19:28 sekjal          I recall that kind of description of Zebra when it was introduced, so I'm connecting dots
19:28 sekjal          perhaps improperly
19:29 owen            sekjal: Makes sense though.
19:29 owen            slef: You have an offering with a one-off fee?
19:30 sekjal          sad that "Koha Express" and "Koha Community" are two releases behind; there are lots of good things since 3.0.2
19:31 slef            owen: yes, two of them, but we're in a state of flux, so http://www.software.coop/products/koha isn't up to date until at least this week's members meeting.
19:31 slef            owen: officially, we're still quoting case-by-case.  In practice, I'm working from a price list.
19:32 slef            owen: I think the members are getting bored of my quote approval requests, so it should get approved as a list price soon ;-)
19:33 owen            Interesting, slef--Do you have customers with existing hosting service who ask you to install Koha there for them?
19:34 slef            owen: usually, yes.
19:35 slef            owen: owning or renting their own servers is the most common among our customers.
19:35 owen            So not your typical mass-market web hosts.
19:35 richard         hi
19:36 owen            I wonder how high-end you have to get before you have the kind of privileges on a commercial web host required to install Koha.
19:36 slef            virtual server
19:36 slef            it can be done with ssh but it's not easy
19:44 slef            well, that depends... koha with zebra I mean
19:44 slef            I think we've installed noZebra with only FTP and a web control panel, but that's really bad (and so more expensive)
19:46 chris           back
19:46 chris           slef: interesting .. revisionist history going on eh
19:47 chris           someone reading the irc logs i wonder
19:55 chris           nice reply to laurie slef
19:58 wizzyrea        I hear it's not all too difficult to do to do it on amazon ec2
19:58 wizzyrea        if you've done it on a virtualbox, you can do it on ec2
19:58 chris           yeah, its easy peasy
19:58 chris           you have an image
19:59 chris           that is an installed, empty koha, and switch that on
19:59 magnusenger     slef: i have been wondering about that recently - is it fair to say that you need root/sudo privileges to install Koha (w/Zebra)?
19:59 chris           done
19:59 magnusenger     ec2 behaves as any server that you have root access to
19:59 magnusenger     no special magic once you have a instance up and running
20:00 wizzyrea        I wonder how hard it would be to get a koha image made available to ec3
20:00 wizzyrea        ec2*
20:00 magnusenger     but you have to plan for images going down, they are not regarded as persistent
20:00 wizzyrea        i know people do that sort of thing
20:00 chris           not hard at all wizzy
20:00 chris           liblime will have them for doing their hosting
20:00 wizzyrea        I guess I meant listed with amazon as one of their default options
20:00 magnusenger     wizzyrea: yeah, theres lots of docs on how to create images for ec2
20:01 chris           oh yeah, i think thats just fill in a form :)
20:01 wizzyrea        well crikey
20:01 magnusenger     but the thing is, you don't want to run your koha on ec2 without thinking a lot about backup and what happens when your instance dies
20:02 chris           yeah, that goes for any thing in the cloud
20:02 magnusenger     but for testing etc it would be super-cool to have an image that you could fire up
20:02 wizzyrea        well, you'd have to think about that anyway
20:02 magnusenger     it would be like vmware or virtualbox without any installation
20:03 wizzyrea        right
20:03 magnusenger     and only cost 10 cents pr hour for testing
20:03 wizzyrea        obviously people do all kinds of fancy things on ec2
20:03 wizzyrea        twitter, for example
20:03 magnusenger     chris: yeah, but amazon seem very keen to point out that their instances are "brittle"
20:03 owen            What does that mean in practical terms?
20:04 wizzyrea        and you could contend that in practical terms, the library catalog is a little less 24/7 than twitter :P
20:04 magnusenger     owen: not quite sure, i have had an instance running for well over a year, but they say they can go away at any time...
20:04 wizzyrea        well that makes me nervous about my LL koha install...
20:05 wizzyrea        since it runs on ec2
20:05 wizzyrea        2, actually
20:05 magnusenger     but they probably have some kind of backup/failover-system in place
20:05 owen            magnusenger: Do you use it for something in production or for testing?
20:05 wizzyrea        one would hope so
20:05 magnusenger     i think ec2 is great if you need a lot of power, several servers, failover etc
20:06 magnusenger     if you only need one server with ordinary backup-routines i don't think it's that great
20:07 magnusenger     owen: well i have an instance with koha that is used for testing/training by an african university: http://koha.collib.info/
20:08 owen            magnusenger: what are the costs like, if I may ask?
20:09 magnusenger     owen: the smallest instance running linux in the us is 10 cents pr hour: http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/#pricing
20:10 * owen          isn't sure what the per-hour pricing is all about
20:10 owen            Is that literally how much time someone is interacting with the system?
20:11 magnusenger     nope, you get an instance running and then you pay for the number hours it runs
20:11 magnusenger     no matter if its idle all the time or serving pages at full speed
20:11 magnusenger     when you shut it down you stop paying
20:11 owen            I see, so the idea is you can set something up for as little time as you want
20:12 magnusenger     so that's great for testing, or if you need to fire up lots of instances to meet spikes in demand
20:12 magnusenger     yes, if you run an instance for 59 minutes you just pay the $0.10
20:13 magnusenger     auto scaling and load balancing are probably some of ec2 greatest strengths
20:14 owen            So that doesn't translate to an inexpensive monthly charge, and would be overkill for something that didn't need scaling
20:14 chris           also if you are doing somethign like LL
20:15 chris           where for $299 you run 3 commands
20:15 chris           its pretty sweet
20:15 chris           wtf
20:15 chris           LibLime staff have also held several official positions in the community historically, including:Release Manager, v. 3.0, 3.2; Translation Manager, v. 3.0; Documentation Manager, v. 3.0 and 3.2
20:16 * chris         should stop looking at that site
20:16 magnusenger     owen: yes, that's pretty much my conclusion! ;-)
20:17 wizzyrea        you mean CPU hours, right?
20:17 slef            magnusenger: you don't need root/sudo, but it makes life a lot easier.
20:17 brendan         rackspace has a really nice small cloud-server -- for 1.5 cents an hour
20:17 slef            magnusenger: zebra and even mysql don't use privileged (root-requiring) ports by default.
20:18 brendan         small though 10gb harddrive
20:18 magnusenger     slef: ok, but wouldnt you need it in order to install zebra and its deps?
20:18 slef            magnusenger: not if you install to $HOME.
20:19 magnusenger     brendan: you'd fit quite a lot of koha in 10gb, though? ;-)
20:19 brendan         :)
20:19 slef            maybe you need to be as old a sysadmin as me and have experienced really locked-down university systems
20:19 magnusenger     slef: ah, ok, havn't thought about that
20:19 magnusenger     slef: ;-)
20:20 slef            off-topic, is that windows 7 smb 2 critical flaw still unpatched?
20:20 slef            I've a blog post going out in the morning using it as an example of why openness is essential.
20:21 slef            http://fsfe.org/news/2009/news-20091019-01.en.html in case you've not seen it yet
20:22 slef            I also drive-by flame the BBC, but hey ho
20:35 owen            See you in 16 hours, everyone!
20:59 chris           dang missed nate
21:01 brendan         ah he'll be back
21:01 chris           cool
21:02 chris_n2        be back after a win32 weekly reboot :-P
21:12 chris_n2        back
21:12 brendan         wb chris_n2
21:12 chris_n2        win32--
21:13 chris           yeah, dunno why anyone uses it :-)
21:14 chris_n2        video processing software
21:14 chris_n2        I have not found the equivalent in FOSS yet
21:15 chris           ahhh
21:15 chris_n2        cinelerra is not quite usable for me
21:17 chris           ARGH!!
21:17 chris_n2        sup?
21:18 chris_n2        rm -fr from root?
21:18 chris           joshua having another crack at hdl
21:18 chris           bullies--
21:18 * chris_n2      heads to the inbox
21:19 * chris         hopes someone else responds so i dont have to
21:19 sekjal          hmmm, LibLime must have finished all the coding for LEK, since he has all this time to respond to emails all of a sudden
21:19 sekjal          I know they've been very busy
21:19 chris           :)
21:20 chris_n2        hehe
21:20 chris           he has a funny definition of working fine so far
21:20 chris           and hdl did have access to the server up until very recently
21:21 sekjal          chris: well, it's not impacting his customers, so everything must be peachy
21:21 chris           sekjal: yeah
21:21 wizzyrea        it's impacting me, I still don't have my sandbox.
21:22 chris           i suspect there is an element of baiting, to try and get an ill thought out response
21:22 chris           so the martyr card can come out again
21:22 brendan         sekjal -- did you migrate from unicorn?
21:22 wizzyrea        that's actually a very good point. it may be better to just let it die.
21:22 sekjal          brendan:  Millennium
21:22 brendan         ok :)
21:23 chris           wizzyrea: yep ive said my piece, joshua knows he has made the same mistakes with releases in the past that hdl has, he and i know that, that's good enough for me
21:24 sekjal          alright, all, time for my train.  good day/evening/night to you!
21:33 hdl_laptop      hi
21:34 chris           hey hdl_laptop :)
21:35 hdl_laptop      hi chris.
21:35 hdl_laptop      Seems Joshua got out at last.
21:35 chris           yep
21:38 hdl_laptop      Not really pleased about his wording, and he never commented about new release numbers in the past.
21:38 hdl_laptop      But well.
21:38 hdl_laptop      anyway
21:39 chris           yeah i think ignore it now
21:39 wizzyrea        or send it off list
21:39 wizzyrea        actually
21:40 wizzyrea        write an angry email, read it, and then delete it.
21:40 wizzyrea        :)
21:40 wizzyrea        that's what I always do
21:40 chris           :)
21:40 hdl_laptop      I am not angry.
21:40 hdl_laptop      Just disappointed we have come to such relationships.
21:41 wizzyrea        yea, it does seem sad
21:41 wizzyrea        (I didn't mean to imply that you were especially angry... it could be a sad/disappointed email too)
21:41 wizzyrea        :)
21:41 hdl_laptop      hehe wizzyrea ;)
21:43 wizzyrea        or this lol: http://rulesformyunbornson.tumblr.com/post/55654369/280-never-respond-to-a-critic-in-writing
21:44 wizzyrea        that is a funny site
21:44 chris_n2        off-brand crayons--
21:45 chris_n2        wizzyrea: lol
21:45 * chris_n2      goes back to coloring w/his 3 year old
21:46 chris           :)
21:50 wizzyrea        lucky kid! I want to color!
21:52 chris           roflmao
21:54 Ropuch          ;>
21:57 wizzyrea        GET SOME NUTS!!
21:57 chris           hehe
21:57 wizzyrea        (sorry. it's almost quitting time for me, I get a bit slap happy)
21:58 chris           the other thing he says that makes me laugh is
21:58 chris           "what's going on?"
21:58 chris           he just walks into a room and opens with that
22:01 brendan         from wizzyrea's site that she forwarded
22:01 brendan         Enough already. Learn the laws of cricket.
22:01 chris           yep, cricket doesnt have rules, it has laws
22:08 chris           hiya pianohackr|work
22:08 pianohackr|work hi chris
22:08 chris           hows the hand healing?
22:11 pianohackr|work fairly well, actually, I'm taking the splint off halloween
22:12 chris           excellent
22:12 chris           http://jenemoore.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/rr-koha-doc/
22:12 pianohackr|work how's your day going?
22:13 chris           not too bad at all, getting quite a lot done
22:20 magnusenger     ...and so to bed!
22:26 rhcl            Not trying to be self-deprecating here, but I have a question stemming from <apparently> my ignorance...
22:26 rhcl            In an OPAC (or the ILS) itself, and after checking a number of library web sites...
22:26 rhcl            it seems that you can't search for, for example...
22:27 rhcl            something with the criteria:
22:27 rhcl            DVD, sci-fi, rated R, release 2003-2007, actor James Bond etc
22:27 rhcl            why not?
22:28 pianohackr|work the first two would likely be handled by collection codes
22:28 pianohackr|work rating could be done through a range, which koha supports but doesn't expose very well
22:28 pianohackr|work release date, rather
22:29 rhcl            are ratings an official "field"?
22:29 pianohackr|work rating and actor would be trickier, as the necessary marc fields aren't as structured
22:29 pianohackr|work yes, its one of the 500s
22:29 pianohackr|work cast too
22:29 chris           if you had set up authorised values for ratings
22:29 rhcl            521 my TS supervisor says
22:30 chris           it would be easier
22:32 chris_n2        owen++ # for helping individuals see the obvious when they have their eyes closed
22:32 rhcl            So if the rating is an established field, and the rating was originally entered by the cataloger, then presumably the OPAC search could be customized to pull on it.
22:32 pianohackr|work rhcl: yup
22:34 chris           you may have to tweek your record.abs file to make zebra index it
22:34 rhcl            So I wonder how the IMDB advanced search works?
22:34 chris           not using marc :)
22:35 pianohackr|work i would certainly hope!
22:35 rhcl            Apparently our Sirsi Workflows can pull the 521 field, but not the OPAC.
22:50 Nate            hiya all!
22:50 chris_n2        howdy Nate
22:50 Nate            just got back from the gym and i am stiiinky!
22:50 chris           heya Nate
22:50 chris           lucky text doesnt carry smell :)
22:50 Nate            hey chris_n2 and chris!
22:51 Nate            got that right
22:51 chris_n2        heh
22:51 Nate            hey chris is it warm by you now?
22:51 brendan         wb Nate
22:52 Nate            hey bren
22:52 chris           not too bad, about 13 celsius, warming up
22:55 hdl_laptop      chris do you know any solution to output EOL caracter correctly for Windows and Linux with calling a platform parameter  ?
22:56 chris           so to figure out what platform its running on, and do a \r or a \n depending?
22:57 hdl_laptop      some scripts are providing reports for user, but if we use server \n then it won't work on Windows, and if we use \r\n all the time, it won't be cool for Linux ;)
22:57 chris           yeah
22:58 hdl_laptop      So I wanted to find a package which would cope with that cleanly
22:58 hdl_laptop      package or function
22:58 chris           scripts are being run as cgi?
22:58 chris           cos the trick will be finding out the platform of the caller
22:58 chris           if so
22:59 hdl_laptop      oh you're right, for cronjobs, that would not be efficient.
23:00 hdl_laptop      Since there are no way to know for which platform you want to print things, apart from providing a script parameter
23:01 chris           exactly
23:03 hdl_laptop      But how do PERL configure those "magic" variables such as $" $/
23:03 chris           pass
23:03 pianohackr|work i'd imagine by whatever os it's compiled for, no?
23:05 hdl_laptop      could be, but it surely has a definition of PLATFORM and variables somewhere then.
23:05 pianohackr|work maybe just a config.h sort of thing
23:06 hdl_laptop      pianohackr|work: Do you think then that a script designed on a Linux Box cannot output Windows elements ?
23:07 hdl_laptop      unless it is executed on a windows box ?
23:07 pianohackr|work well, you could set the necessary special variables
23:07 hdl_laptop      This would be a funny way to build a "cross-platform" language imho
23:07 pianohackr|work I think perl generally assumes the output will be used on the same platform its being run on
23:08 chilts          you might want this: $OUTPUT_RECORD_SEPARATOR
23:08 chilts          or $\
23:08 pianohackr|work hello, chilts
23:08 chilts          it's undefined by default, but if you set it it'll happen each time there is a newline (I think)
23:08 chilts          hi pianohackr|work
23:08 chilts          but not sure how to check for an OS
23:08 chilts          maybe this: http://search.cpan.org/~burak/Sys-Info-Base-0.72/lib/Sys/Info/OS.pm
23:08 chilts          if $os->is_linux
23:09 chilts          etc
23:09 pianohackr|work it's going to be nasty however you do it, since the report code is essentially copy-and-paste
23:10 chilts          usually I'd just let Perl do it's thing ... how are the reports output? HTML or otherwise?
23:11 pianohackr|work chilts: generally cgi or on-filesystem reports from cronjobs, yes
23:12 hdl_laptop      hi chilts
23:12 chilts          hi hdl_laptop
23:12 chilts          pianohackr|work: ah, so the crons email the reports or just save them somewhere for download?
23:13 pianohackr|work chilts: yup
23:13 chilts          and what format are they? text?
23:13 chilts          html?
23:13 pianohackr|work varies, but almost always text or csv
23:13 chilts          ah, ok, hence the problem :(
23:14 pianohackr|work exactly
23:14 pianohackr|work enough ^Ms for the whole family
23:14 chilts          if they are downloadable, there could be an option "Download as CSV (Windows|Mac|Unix)" ??
23:14 chilts          each clickable
23:14 chilts          that makes it easier
23:15 pianohackr|work something along those lines
23:15 chilts          oh wait, I guess this is for Koha running on Windows?
23:15 hdl_laptop      No.
23:15 hdl_laptop      clients under windows, or Mac but server under Linux
23:15 chilts          ah, I think let them choose then :)
23:16 chilts          otherwise you'll have to go 'if the thing doing the download is windows, then do this' ... which is a pain
23:16 chris           and error prone
23:17 chris           my browser pretends to be windows sometimes to get round stupid websites :)
23:17 chilts          so yeah, if you have two links, Windows|Linux, run the same script with 'format=(windoze|linux)' which sets the right thing :)
23:17 chilts          or something
23:18 chris           you could have a handler which serves the file
23:18 hdl_laptop      could be better to have a script that does post processing on reports rather than printing them once.
23:18 hdl_laptop      same idea
23:18 chris           if windows s/\n/\r\n/
23:18 chris           yeah
23:26 hdl_laptop      mmm can't think of many variables though surely, we would need that to be done quite basically at first and then enriched.
23:27 pianohackr|work hdl_laptop: if you manage to refactor some of the reports while you're at it, your name shall be shouted from the rooftops
23:29 hdl_laptop      will try.
23:29 hdl_laptop      ok good night folks
23:29 pianohackr|work good night
23:32 chris_n2        argh!
23:32 chris_n2        /me spills coke into his keyboard
23:32 pianohackr|work soft_drinks-- :)
23:33 chris_n2        at least I saved the pizza ;-)
23:34 chris_n2        this keyboard is due a bath anyway
23:34 pianohackr|work pizza++ only way our migration succeeded was through the grace of dominos
23:34 chris_n2        hehe
23:34 * chris_n2      sends another missive to the 'dmake' guru
23:35 chris_n2        I'm pounding on win32 installation again
23:35 pianohackr|work oh, I'm sorry
23:35 pianohackr|work thanks for doing that, it's nasty grunge work that nobody seems to want to sponsor
23:36 chris_n2        can opac be installed as a true stand-alone?
23:40 pianohackr|work how do you mean?
23:59 chris_n2        actually I was thinking opac on one machine and staff client on another