Time Nick Message 00:06 gmcharlt Jo: you get double points if you use Morse code for the smoke signals 00:07 nengard boys!!! 00:07 * nengard rolls eyes 00:16 martinmorris good evening, i have a question i'm curious about 00:17 pianohacker martinmorris: shoot 00:17 martinmorris when adding a significant number of authorities (10000 from a MARCXML file in my case) i notice the number of rebuild_zebra -b -a -z processes slowly creeping up to about 25 or so 00:18 martinmorris as well as various zebraidx -c /etc/koha/zebradb/zebra-authorities-dom.cfg etc. processes 00:18 martinmorris and really just wondering why more than one is needed 00:19 martinmorris any ideas? 00:20 pianohacker martinmorris: What's happening is that one starts, and five minutes later has not finished 00:20 martinmorris right... 00:20 pianohacker Then another scheduled reindexed starts 00:20 chris_n2 Morse Code++ 00:20 pianohacker There's no locking 00:20 chris_n2 the original digital signal 00:20 pianohacker Though chris developed something 00:20 pianohacker ... - - - ... 00:20 martinmorris so do i need to kill these processes at some point? 00:20 chris_n2 hehe 00:21 pianohacker martinmorris: Most likely. If you're going to import a huge chunk of records/authorities, the easiest approach is often to temporarily disable the scheduled reindex 00:22 * chris_n2 wonders exactly what is sinking pianohacker 's boat ;-) 00:22 martinmorris and if i just kill them now will that cause problems with the reindexing or can i just issue a fresh rebuild_zebra command 00:22 pianohacker chris_n: hehe 00:23 pianohacker martinmorris: Zebra is fairly resilient. As long as they're not actively committing changes, you can kill the processes 00:23 martinmorris ok :) thanks :) 00:23 pianohacker If the worst happens, you can rebuild your whole index from scratch 00:23 martinmorris indeed, although that's slow and boring :) 00:24 martinmorris ok, i'm off to bed, thanks pianohacker 00:24 pianohacker no problem, good luck 00:26 brendan catchya later koha -- time to ride bike home :) 00:26 pianohacker bye 00:33 chris http://koha.pastebin.com/d2857eb94 00:35 pianohacker Hmm. Where are the lockfile-* utilities from? 00:36 chris apt-get install lockfile-progs 00:37 chris you could do it by hand of course, just touch a file, then rm it 00:37 chris lockfile-progs is just nicer :) 00:50 pianohacker Good night, #koha 03:37 Amit hi chris, brendan 03:37 Amit good morning #koha ;) 03:37 brendan hi Amit 03:37 Amit chris: Today India vs NZ 03:39 richard hiya amit 03:39 richard should be a good game 03:39 Amit heya richard 03:39 Amit yes sure 03:39 Amit richard your favorite 03:40 richard has to be nz - otherwise chris would be throwing stones on my roof :) 03:40 Amit haa 03:40 Amit ;) 03:40 richard actually, i think india will be clear favourites - even with one of the good batsmen out 03:41 Amit u mean to say gambir 03:41 richard nz can't seem to get beyond 150 runs in any form of the game 03:41 richard yeah 03:41 Amit hmm 03:42 Amit not sure cricket is game of uncertainty 03:42 richard very true 03:43 richard tho a nz batting collapse is a near certainty 03:47 Amit hmm ;) 03:50 Amit hi joann 05:37 Joann Hi Amit 05:38 kf good morning #koha :) 05:38 brendan evening kf 05:42 Amit hi kf 05:43 kf hi Amit and brendan 06:40 Amit hi nicomo 06:41 nicomo morning Amit 06:41 nicomo morning all 06:42 kf good morning nicomo 06:42 nicomo @wunder konstanz, germany 06:42 munin` nicomo: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Germany is 14.9�C (8:42 AM CEST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 12.0�C. Pressure: 30.30 in 1026.0 hPa (Steady). 06:43 nicomo @wunder lyon, france 06:43 munin` nicomo: The current temperature in Lyon Satolas, France is 16.0�C (8:30 AM CEST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 14.0�C. Pressure: 30.24 in 1024 hPa (Steady). 06:43 Amit @wunder Dehradun, india 06:43 munin` Amit: The current temperature in Dehradun, India is 24.0�C (11:30 AM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Light Drizzle. Humidity: 81%. Dew Point: 22.0�C. Pressure: 29.65 in 1004 hPa. 06:43 Amit @wunder Delhi, India 06:43 munin` Amit: Error: No such location could be found. 06:43 Amit @wunder New Delhi, India 06:43 munin` Amit: The current temperature in New Delhi, India is 25.0�C (12:00 PM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Rain. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 25.0�C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1003 hPa (Steady). 06:44 kf nicomo: just read your mail on the mailing list :) 06:44 Amit @wunder Bangalore 06:44 munin` Amit: The current temperature in Bangalore, India is 27.0�C (11:30 AM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 44%. Dew Point: 17.0�C. 06:44 nicomo which one kf ? 06:46 kf nicomo: the answer to 'Koha support by BSZ' 06:46 nicomo ah yes 06:46 nicomo :-) 06:46 nicomo I'd love to visit Konstanz: don't you want to set something up? :-) 06:48 kf I give a talk on koha on BSZ Kolloquium this year, where we speak about our current projects 06:48 kf but this is in Sutttgart 06:50 nicomo kf: as an aside, do you have any contacts with the folks at Göttingen who work on VuFind? 06:51 kf I saw that there was a workshop, but dont know them personally 06:51 kf are they still working on it? 06:52 kf I know of another library that wanted to use VuFind, but they gave up on the project 07:00 hdl_laptop hello world 07:02 Ropuch ;> 07:02 Ropuch Morning 07:03 kf good morning hdl_laptop and Ropuch 07:03 paul_p hi everybody 07:09 Amit hi hdl, ropuch, paul 07:11 paul_p mmm... new website for liblime.com (& RSS feed not working anymore) 07:13 paul_p with http://www.liblime.com/demos announcing the "LibLime Enterprise Koha" and pointing to a non-released-source version. 07:14 paul_p (& that is supposed to be the "official" koha.org demos :'( ) 07:14 Amit with new GetIt Acquisitions Integration 07:29 kf Koha Communiy, Koha Express and Koha Enterpriye?? oh my... 07:31 nicomo kf: yes, and even though it's not explicitly stated I have a feeling the Kohe Enterprise version, with the liblime specific code, will be hosted-only 07:31 Ropuch Sounds littlle like 'Koha Home Premium" ;/ 07:35 paul_p nicomo: it's specified (hosted only) 07:35 nicomo ah ok, hadn't seen it 07:36 paul_p (3rd line : "SaaS on LL cloud computing platform") 07:36 nicomo ah yes: "Distribution via Software as a Service on LibLime's cloud computing platform" 07:37 * kf wonders if they will still advertise with supporting open source 07:37 paul_p kf: yes, of course they do ! 07:37 kf perhaps its time for a statement from the community now? 07:37 paul_p they even add "no vendor lock in"... 07:38 nicomo kf: ++ 07:38 paul_p kf: yep. I add you in a mail i'm preparing now 07:38 kf thx paul 07:38 kf today will be a strange day - our mail from yesterday is just arriving in German blogosphere, Twitter and on the big mailing lists 07:38 kf and now this 07:40 nicomo kf: I feel the Koha community is big enough, and strong enough to overcome this 07:41 nicomo it definitely is unwelcomed, and bad timing for us all 07:41 nicomo but then, it clarifies things 07:41 nicomo and we need to move forward 07:41 nicomo we: collectively 07:47 kf and I think we need to talk about what is happening 07:47 kf perhaps its just my feeling that I dont want them to get away with this so easily :( 07:52 paul_p kf: reminder: they own and manage koha.org, so we must prepare for the worst... 07:52 nicomo let's wait for the US to wake up first 07:52 nicomo we'll see this afternoon 08:25 kf has chris seen that? 09:46 bob hi, how does one restart the koha-zebra-daemon if they are getting the error 09:46 bob Restarting the Zebra Server 09:46 bob daemon: fatal: failed to find pid for koha-zebra-ctl.koha3: No such file or directory 09:48 bob is there a way to kill the process and start zebra up again? 09:50 Amit_G chris: NZ 30/2 after 10 over 10:15 hdl_laptop bob: yes 10:15 hdl_laptop killall zebrasrv 10:16 hdl_laptop and then remove pid 10:18 bob hmm, when i go lsof|grep zebrasrv 10:18 bob after the killall zebrasrv 10:18 bob i still see it 10:19 bob it just seems to change process number 10:22 * bob wonders if rebooting the whole server may fix things 10:37 gmcharlt bob: there may be a daeomon process respawning it 10:38 gmcharlt in which case you need to kill the parent as well 10:38 kf lunch time 10:41 bob hmm, ok ta i'll look for that 11:18 chris wow, thats pretty naff 11:18 chris i agree with kf, nicomo and paul_p ... that is the last straw 11:19 paul_p hi chris 11:21 chris hi paul_p 11:24 chris the more annoying thing is, he will be busy spinning it in some way blaming the community and saying how we forced him to do this to his customers 11:27 chris ah well, this day has been coming for a while 11:36 chris i hope that his clients will be smart enough to look past his lies 11:50 kf hi chris 11:50 kf I think an official statement from the community is needed so that people know both sides 11:52 chris i think so too kf 11:54 kf I have a koha presentation to new colleagues in a few minutes, I will try to catch up with my mails after that 11:54 chris good luck 11:54 kf thx :) 12:00 chris gonna be an interesting weekend thats for sure 12:01 jdavidb :) Hi, chris! 12:01 chris heya jdavidb 12:04 |Lupin| hi 12:04 jdavidb Hi |Lupin|! :) 12:05 kf bbl 12:05 |Lupin| hi jdavidb 12:06 |Lupin| I've a file listing Debian package to install to make Koha work on an unstable distro. Does this interest somebody ? Could/should this file be made available somehow ? 12:07 jdavidb Yes, please, Lupin! 12:07 jdavidb I'm loving my Lenny installs, but knowing what's up for the *next* release is a Good Thing. 12:09 |Lupin| jdavidb: shall I send the file to you ? just send me an e-mail addess in a private message if that's ok with you 12:11 chris ok time for me to go to sleep 12:13 gmcharlt |Lupin|: you could also do a patch start seeding install_misc/debian-unstable.packages 12:14 |Lupin| goodnight chris ! 12:14 |Lupin| gmcharlt: sure, will submit it during the week-end 12:19 Amit_G galen: have a nice weekend 12:20 Amit_G nice weekend to all 12:20 gmcharlt Amit_G: you too 12:41 * jdavidb remembers why he enjoys this community so darn much. Collaborating with someone far, far away, on a point of mutual interest, is really nice. 12:43 jdavidb Hey, gmcharlt: If |Lupin| gets his debian-squeeze.packages file in, I could probably get an INSTALL.debian-sqeeze file put together pretty quick. Any chance of slipping 'em into 3.2? ;-) 12:44 gmcharlt jdavidb: sure 12:44 jdavidb Yay! 12:50 paul_p jdavidb: ;-) 12:51 jdavidb paul_p: :D I was telling Sébastien a bit ago how much being in this group has expanded my worldview. It's been really great, and it was *awesome* meeting you at KohaCon in April. :) 12:59 * chris_n reads the news with much disappointment 13:00 paul_p chris_n: which one is a disappointment ? 13:00 nahuel which news ? 13:01 chris_n paul_p: LL's decision to sever ties w/ the community 13:01 nahuel chris, But they are still using the koha.org website for their communication... 13:02 chris_n which imho makes it all the worse 13:02 paul_p chris_n: now, it's public. Which is much better than the previous situation, where things were hidden & not publicly said. 13:03 * jdavidb must have missed something; I saw Nicole's message this morning, and was unsurprised by it. What are y'all seeing? 13:04 paul_p jdavidb: look at http://www.liblime.com/products/koha 13:04 chris_n jdavidb: no surprise, just a sense of finality in it and the distasteful duty which now falls to the community to address a situation which should not have ever been an issue 13:05 jdavidb Gosh, think they can make the community look any more lame on those pages? Lordy. Yeah, that doesn't look good. 13:10 jdavidb chris_n: speaking as me-as-me, and me-as-PTFS both, I feel like the vendors probably oughta do our best to kinda stand off a little bit from it. Be there, be supportive, but no one of us, IMO, should make any moves that look like lead-taking. 13:11 * chris_n thinks having an incorporated foundation in place (would have) will head off this sort of thing in the future as much as is possible 13:12 * jdavidb inserts Sandard Disclaimer here. My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my bosses, or any other person. 13:12 jdavidb I agree, chris_n. Having some structure in place external to the vendors--in which we participate in some way, certainly--would head off many problems. 13:13 chris_n people will always discover ways to violate the spirit of the law if not the letter, but a foundation will have a greater authority 13:13 |Lupin| till soon, everybody 13:13 jdavidb I'm not terribly fond of the Apache foundation process--it can be a little cumbersome at times. But one thing I am fond of--there are *no* vendors mentioned on the ASF pages; only people. 13:14 jdavidb Some of those people obviously work for companies that are making money off of ASF work, but it's *people* that make the projects go, and that's what the meritocracies are about...people, not companies. 13:15 * jdavidb would *love* to see koha.org set up like that. 13:27 paul_p jdavidb: there are pros and cons about having companies or not. Koha widely differs from Apache, and I think it's a good idea to have a directory on koha.org (that would be handled by neutral ppl, you get 1 point on this). 13:28 paul_p + I strongly think the LL changes is not linked to the ptfs history. 13:28 paul_p (but explaining why I think that would be too long) 13:30 jdavidb paul_p: fair 'nuf. Having seen both sides of the LL/PTFS scrap, that was really a separate problem from what's going on now. (might have been a symptom of a larger problem.) 13:31 jdavidb Truly-neutral handling of a directory of vendors would be fine with me--but that neutrality is something that Foundation would need to protect very fiercely, IMO. 13:31 paul_p a symptom or a catalyser... 13:34 * jdavidb nods. 13:40 jdavidb Hi, kf! 13:40 jdavidb Mornin', collum. 13:41 collum Hi jdavidb 13:43 kf hi jdavidb 13:50 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: I think it could be a good idea to create a submodule for zebra configuration files 13:50 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: agreed, maybe with a little abstraction of indexing config to boot 13:52 hdl_laptop I think i donot follow you. 13:53 hdl_laptop Abstract what ? 13:53 jdavidb follows gmcharlt's line of thinking, and agrees vigorously! 13:53 jdavidb I'm all for it, Galen. 13:54 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: my idea is that the idexing config would be expressed in general terms 13:54 gmcharlt that could be used to emit Zebra config 13:54 gmcharlt and later extended to emit Solr configs 13:55 hdl_laptop Yes agreed. 13:55 jdavidb So the user interface would say, create an index called <foo>, which watches field/subfields <bar>,<baz>, and <quux>, and the module takes care of the hairy details? 13:56 hdl_laptop But then it would require a tool for management of that 13:56 kf nice 13:56 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: yeah, there should be a tool eventually 13:56 kf something like conditional indexing would be nice to: index 880 in index title when $6245 13:57 jdavidb Save that in a config table, and have rebuild_zebra yank it out and build its' own configs when -r -w is called. 13:57 gmcharlt pretty much, though a bit more caching of the config would be better 13:58 hdl_laptop jdavidb: would not be efficient for everyday use, unless the tool writes the files... rather than creates all the time 13:58 jdavidb That's what I was thinking, hdl. If you change these tables, you'd need to run rebuild_zebra anyway, so have it rebuild the zebra-*.config files as a first step. 14:01 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: anything I could do to help with newacq branch ? 14:01 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: hang on 15 minutes 14:02 hdl_laptop no problems 14:12 chris_n gmcharlt++ #user-definable zebra indexes 14:19 owen If Koha became part of the Apache Software Foundation, what would that mean for the koha web site? 14:19 owen (and ASF is just a for-instance) 14:22 hdl_laptop I can see no link between Website and being part of a foundation 14:23 owen Would being part of such a foundation give us the collective resources necessary to take koha.org out of any one company's hands? 14:25 hdl_laptop ressources are what you bring. 14:25 hdl_laptop Foundation itself, unless we join a big foundation, has no money on itself 14:26 schuster koha.org still has to virtually reside someplace and that domain has to be owned by someone... 14:26 hdl_laptop And i doubt that you can start joining and first ask for money. 14:26 hdl_laptop schuster: yes. 14:27 hdl_laptop But maybe not in one's vendor hands 14:27 wizzyrea how long until the domain registration runs out? 14:27 paul_p wizzyrea: which one ? 14:27 chris_n as I understand it, koha was in use in the USA prior to LL's existence; if so the prior user has the right to file a petition to cancel the registration based on evidence of its prior use 14:27 paul_p ('morning) 14:28 owen chris_n: Good point. 14:28 paul_p chris_n: the problem here, is the contract btw katipo & LL. If he says "katipo sells DNS & name & copyright to LL", then it's a bad news. 14:28 wizzyrea koha.org, december 2012 14:28 * chris_n refers to the us TM of koha which would affect the ownership of domain as well 14:29 chris_n paul_p: I don't think katipo copyrighted or tm'd the name 14:30 wizzyrea http://www.directnic.com/whois/index.php?query=koha.org whois info 14:30 hdl_laptop koha is a common noun in NZ so cannot be even trademarked in NZ 14:30 paul_p chris_n: i'm sure they didn't, because koha is like "hello" in NZ 14:30 chris_n but they could answer that 14:30 chris_n paul_p: didn't Biblibre use the "Koha" "brand" in the US prior to LL? 14:31 hdl_laptop No, only in France 14:31 * chris_n believes someone did, but is not familiar with the early history of koha in the US 14:31 paul_p hdl_laptop: not really, my 1st customer has been... NPL (thanks again stephen) 14:32 owen So if anyone, it was NPL that "used" the Koha brand. 14:32 paul_p chris_n: here is the history: I started working on koha on 2002, oct 1st, as self employed person, and I got the NPL contract on Oct 3rd ! 14:33 chris_n I think there may be enough "prior usage" to build a case on if need be 14:33 owen Good luck getting us to pony up the money for a lawyer. 14:33 paul_p chris_n: I think we would have less pain moving to openkoha.org ;-) 14:33 wizzyrea yes, abandoning ship on that doman might be easier :P 14:33 chris_n paul_p: I think so too 14:34 wizzyrea not to mention... erm... more embarrassing 14:34 * chris_n imagines a plethora of suit/counter-suit and runs the other way... fast 14:34 paul_p git is not a problem, mailing lists are ours (BibLibre), so the only problem (but it's large), is the website... 14:34 paul_p (it's large because there are a lot of references to koha.org all around the web) 14:35 wizzyrea and good luck getting a redirect 14:35 paul_p wizzyrea: of course... 15:46 kf http://www.librarytechnology.org/ltg-displaytext.pl?RC=14230 15:47 owen "LibLime Enterprise Koha represents the most advanced and comprehensive open-source ILS solution available to libraries." 15:47 owen Except it's not open source anymore. 15:47 wizzyrea Well, open by letter, but not by spirit 15:47 jdavidb owen++ 15:49 owen "Just to make one thing crystal clear: All of LibLime's development efforts will be available to the library community under an open-source license" 15:49 owen Dumping a tarball in the community's lap isn't exactly sharing. 15:50 owen "Here's our forked code. Integrate it if you can." 15:51 wizzyrea not to mention that it creates vendor lock in, since no one else (without reverse engineering) will be able to maintain that install. 15:51 kf yep 15:51 kf but most people wont understand that :( 15:52 wizzyrea and you certainly are looking at a proper migration if you want to go between the two versions 15:52 * wizzyrea frowns 15:52 jdavidb yep. Big-time. 15:52 kf and they have some really nice features in their enterprise.... :( 15:52 owen "Koha Enterprise, now with vendor lock-in" 15:52 wizzyrea frankly, I don't think there's much there that isn't in the works by someone else 15:53 wizzyrea it will just take longer to get 15:53 jdavidb We've been working some of those, kf, but hadn't quite got 'em ready to toss over the wall before 6 Sept. :( 15:53 kf yes 15:53 kf of course nobody did hourly loans for koha after liblime promised ths feature for 3.2... 15:53 paul_p kf: I wouldn't be so negative about ppl not understanding. If everybody does enough noise, I hope ppl will understand. And as there is more than 1 vendor for Koha in US, others will be able to do their jobs and point the problems. 15:54 wizzyrea yea, that's the annoying bit, the promised the community that the features were coming... to the community 15:54 wizzyrea and now they're not 15:54 paul_p in french we say "promises engages only those listening them" (heavy frenchisms heavily suspected...) 15:55 wizzyrea how is it in french? 15:55 paul_p "les promesses n'engagent que ceux qui les écoutent" 15:55 wizzyrea yep, that makes more sense (to me anyway) 15:55 kf not to me :) 15:56 paul_p kf: i Haven't speak german for 15 years. Won't try to translate, sorry :( 15:57 jdavidb kf: Google Translate renders it as:bindende Zusagen, dass diejenigen, die zuhören, but it makes a total hash when Paul's statement is fed to it and asked for English. 15:57 kf paul_p: no problem. Its just I regret sometimes not to have learned french, chose russian instead in school. 15:57 chris_n paul_p: actually it comes across clearly in English 15:57 kf makes no sense - Google does not translate very well to German 15:58 jdavidb "binding promises that those who listen?" Oh! A promise binds those who *listen* to it, right? 15:58 nicomo jdavidb: right 15:58 wizzyrea that was what I got out of it, lol 15:58 * jdavidb cannot brain today; he has the dumb. And he talks Texan only, most of the time. 15:59 paul_p engage for bind. That's a big frenchism ;-) 15:59 * wizzyrea loves frenchisms 16:00 paul_p "engager" in french is not a matter of love or getting married ;-) 16:00 wizzyrea irony... 16:00 paul_p bind is much better ;-) 16:00 wizzyrea we has it 16:00 gmcharlt jdavidb: there's alwas Texas Cajun 16:00 gmcharlt no excuse for not knowing French ;) 16:00 wizzyrea jdavidb: pwnt by gmcharlt! 16:00 jdavidb gmcharlt, you're forgetting how *big* texas is. the cajun folk might as well have been on Mars, they were so far from me. 16:01 owen For that matter jdavidb ought to know Czech too: http://www.czechheritage.org/ 16:01 wizzyrea jdavidb: that's no excuse! 16:01 wizzyrea ;) 16:01 nicomo I once heard a Cajun person talking: I couldn't understand a word 16:01 gmcharlt jdavidb: I was an Alaskan for a while; split Alaska in two and Texas becomes the third biggest state ;) 16:01 schuster Sad day in Koha land...;( 16:01 wizzyrea schuster: very. What do you think about it? 16:02 jdavidb Abilene is 120 miles (~193km) away from the wrong side of the middle of nowhere. 16:02 wizzyrea (besides sad) 16:02 paul_p schuster: you should be more positive. now things are public. We will be able to do something ! 16:02 wizzyrea I do appreciate paul_p... he's always so positive! 16:02 * paul_p tired of all this rumors that we faced for months... 16:03 kf what makes me angry is, they still can pick the nice thinigs we do 16:03 kf if someone makes a better hourly loan they can just go and copy the code 16:03 kf its seems so unfair. 16:04 gmcharlt kf: don't be angry at that - if we want to share, we share to any and all 16:04 nicomo gmcharlt: ++ 16:04 jdavidb gmcharlt++ 16:04 paul_p and migrate their already LL Enterprise Koha ? I wouldn't be the one having to deal with that ! 16:04 kf you are right, its just it feels so unfair 16:04 paul_p no, it's a technical nonsense and dead-end ! 16:05 jdavidb Migrating one of their customers who's on the "Enterprise" edition would be a significant pain, too true. 16:05 nicomo and besides, if they do fork, they'll have problem integrating what we do too 16:05 wizzyrea nicomo: it's not an if, anymore 16:05 paul_p nicomo++ 16:05 wizzyrea it's done. 16:05 nicomo wizzyrea: it is 16:06 owen They're forking. They promise to reject any community-contributed patches which don't meet their own standards. 16:06 nicomo but I guess technically they could still merge our stuff in without too much of an investment 16:06 nicomo whereas in a while it's going to be just impossible 16:06 gmcharlt nicomo: nope, merging gets progressively more difficult for *both* sides for the fork 16:06 paul_p can I say I'm feeling like someone seeing LL747 going to hit a tower today? 16:07 nicomo gmcharlt: yes, that's what I meant 16:07 chris_n imho the greater concern is the intangible "good-will" associated with the "koha" name and how to recover that in the case of a name modification/change 16:07 nicomo but could'nt express myself clearly, sorry 16:07 gmcharlt paul_p: that's going just a bit too far :) 16:07 chris_n the code is open source regardless of the outcome of this situation 16:08 nicomo forking cuts both ways : those on the LL entreprise fork won't be able to get the community stuff pretty soon 16:09 schuster The spirit of opensource with LibLime is lost. For those of us that have to bid for services when there are multiple companies that can provide the service this gets more difficult - especially when it comes to development. 16:09 wizzyrea yea, and that makes me, as a LL customer, feel like I"m swimming in the LL lagoon 16:09 wizzyrea not on the koha ocean 16:09 nicomo nice analogy 16:09 * chris_n thinks of "the creature from the black lagoon" ;-) 16:10 * paul_p remember New caledonia "ile des pins" lagoon, but this one is probably not the same kind of lagoon... 16:11 schuster I'm locally hosted so this brings me to a whole new problem - choose LL enterprise or have to bid out support services... Anybody have an RFP? 16:11 wizzyrea when I put it that way to josh, he said "well I see it as the other way around... liblime has the ocean" and I didn't have the energy to pursue him on it 16:11 paul_p LL has the ocean... wow... i'm really really astonished ! 16:12 schuster LibLime does have an ocean in the development "PLAN" right now but how soon will his well dry up when all of these people signed on as an Open Source ILS - once it forks they won't be OpenSource freely. 16:13 schuster We will be back to a proprietary system and to maintain it they will raise fees etc... putting them back on the original Proprietary model we all chose to leave. 16:13 owen I just don't understand their motivation. Why turn your back on a global family of developers giving you free stuff? 16:14 paul_p http://www.librarytechnology.org/ltg-displaytext.pl?RC=14231 16:14 schuster Control.. 16:14 kf fearing competition? 16:14 paul_p owen: when you think you're better than everybody, at the end, you think everybody is wrong and you're right. 16:15 owen "the library can utilize documentation and community support to proceed with data migration and configuration of the new system" 16:15 owen You've got to be kidding me. 16:16 paul_p ( LL timing is quite good. They're underwhelming the bad announce with a lot of announces that sounds nice ! ) 16:16 owen "Here's your Koha installation, now go mooch off the community we thumbed our noses at" 16:17 * chris_n finally grasps paul_p's 9/11 remark.... :-P 16:18 paul_p hey, a "funny" thing to do: add a "poison pill" into koha official, displaying a news on koha express setups (from the url that will probably be *.liblime.com) 16:18 paul_p (or *.kohalibrary.com) 16:19 kf Is Koha Express the old Koha Classic? 16:19 owen Has anyone tried to take up Liblime's offer to share *.kohalibrary.com? 16:19 jdavidb Classic was all 2.2 systems, when I was there. 16:20 paul_p or another one (that will probably be unfair, but I throw it : if we detect the url is kohalibrary.com, send the mail address of all branches to fairuseofkoha@gmail.com, then, contact them to explain) 16:20 kf ah, thx jdavidb 16:20 paul_p if they REALLY plan to deploy koha official, there are zillions of way to do things like this one ! 16:21 jdavidb They had a thing that was called "Small Library Bundles", and those were about where the Express is, only with conversion and support. 16:21 owen Remind me not to get on paul_p's bad side! :) 16:21 wizzyrea holy moly no kidding 16:21 * jdavidb finds paul_p to be sneaky and mean, and finds that one more reason to like him. 16:21 wizzyrea of course 16:21 paul_p owen: lol 16:21 wizzyrea since you've discussed them here they're public record 16:21 wizzyrea and they would take action to prevent it 16:22 wizzyrea oh, I just love games of cat and mouse 16:22 jdavidb 'specially when you're the cat, wizzyrea? 16:22 wizzyrea meow! 16:22 jdavidb lol 16:22 paul_p wizzyrea: I know it's public. And I don't really plan to do that. I just want to point it's a technical non-sense to go this way 16:22 wizzyrea paul_p I know you know :) 16:23 * wizzyrea is trying to be funny, and failing. This is serious business! 16:23 * gmcharlt does point out that he has no intention of pushing patches that are in any sense retaliatory - Koha Official qua the software itself shoudl be about benefit to libraries and their patron 16:23 paul_p hey, something we WILL do: the doc will move soon (for sure...) it will display a red-large thing on 1st page. 16:23 rhcl You know, I'm kinda on the fringe of this whole thing, but I don't see the whole LL/community issue in nearly as negative a sense as some apparently. I mean, this is an opportunity to move on with the project, right? This development situation seems to be really common in the OS world, but good projects survive and become really successful. 16:24 paul_p rhcl++ that's why i'm also positive 16:24 owen rhcl: the problem right now is that Liblime still has a lot of power over the community, in particular with koha.org 16:24 paul_p (long term, because, short term, it's a pain) 16:24 wizzyrea gmcharlt ++ 16:25 chris_n gmcharlt++ # that is exactly as it should be; this is FOSS and nothing less 16:25 jdavidb rhcl++ ...but you're not on the fringe, IMO. You're here, and that puts you smack dab in the middle. People who don't use Koha, or don't code Koha....that's the fringe. 16:25 jdavidb @karma gmcharlt 16:25 munin` jdavidb: Karma for "gmcharlt" has been increased 48 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 48. 16:25 rhcl Well, we're still trying to get serials running... :) I don't feel like I'm in the middle yet. 16:26 rhcl openkoha.org seems good to me 16:26 paul_p gmcharlt: I agree. just to be clear: I don't plan to do anything harmfull for Koha or librarians. I just want to make clear that what LL does is a technical non-sense ! 16:27 gmcharlt paul_p: yeah, I figured :) 16:28 jdavidb I heard chris use the best term I've heard yet for what's happened: LL has "lost the plot." 16:33 kf Its on the mailinglists now: Erik Lewis on [Koha]: Is Koha now officially forked? 16:36 paul_p look at http://koha.org/ 16:38 chris wow, you know its a big koha news day when the computers in the house are all beeping loudly as they see tweets and emails galore 16:39 * chris goes round turning off speakers 16:39 gmcharlt paul_p: http://koha.org is timing out for me at the moment 16:39 gmcharlt ah, here it is back 16:39 paul_p gmcharlt: was not 2mn ago 16:39 paul_p yep, it was this (french) morning too 16:39 paul_p it's probably the plone effect ;-) 16:40 chris_n chris: heh, good morning 16:41 kf chris: good morning 16:41 chris gotta say i agree with the sentiment that im glad this is finally public 16:42 paul_p chris++ 16:42 chris now we can call damage, route around it, and move on 16:46 * chris wonders who will be the first to reply to erik's email 16:46 chris not me, cos its 4.45am ... and i need to go back to sleep 16:46 * chris wanders off back to bed 16:47 * chris_n thought 4 hours of sleep was a bit lean... and on a Saturday morning too ;-) 16:49 kf need to leave now - bye #koha 16:50 * paul_p has to leave now (7pm in France, and we have guests today) 16:50 kf going to the movies :) 16:50 chris_n bye paul_p && kf 16:51 kf bye :) 16:51 wizzyrea bye everybody 16:51 * wizzyrea is not leaving yet thoug 16:51 * owen remembers movies 16:51 * wizzyrea does too 16:51 owen It's a dim memory...about three kids back. 16:52 * wizzyrea wistfully remembers popcorn, and the seats with the raiseable armrests... and snuggling... 16:53 wizzyrea mine's not that dim, but still pretty dim. Good sitters are hard to come by around here. Or I'm just too picky. That's probably it 16:53 owen We were too picky with #1. Should have seen more movies back then. 16:55 * chris_n lets the older children babysit the youngest one 16:55 jdavidb hm....the last time I took a date to the movies, that was before the raiseable armrests were all that popular. Must try to find a date some time. 16:55 jdavidb And my evil minion is 16, and can watch herself! 16:59 wizzyrea hi biglego :) 17:04 owen Time for a three- or four-martini lunch 17:24 jdavidb hi, kr1shnan! :) 17:24 kr1shnan jdavidb: Hi! 18:01 owen Damn, no /good/ news in the last hour? 18:02 sekjal owen: seems not 18:24 brendan quieted down for the moment -- but geeze 18:26 sekjal well, at least an official statement has been issued. 18:27 brendan response to questions from the mailing list? 18:28 sekjal no; the list has only been community members reactions at this point 18:28 brendan ok -- thought I missed sometime 18:29 owen There has been some back-and-forth on the liblime-users list. Some questions, some complaining (me) and some "Yay, go Liblime" 18:29 wizzyrea owen: did you note who that was from? 18:29 wizzyrea ...I did. Heh. 18:29 owen Yup 18:29 brendan I'm guessing waldo ? 18:29 owen "Yay Liblime, down with open source!" 18:29 wizzyrea you didn't hear it from me >.> 18:29 sekjal well, at least someone's happy 18:29 brendan where's waldo :) 18:29 owen Not on the Koha list it seems. 18:30 brendan hehe 18:30 sekjal I guess I don't have to bug them anymore about saying something official 18:31 brendan I listen to talk radio during the day -- (usually a sports station from new york) wish that these announcers would break down the koha community at the moment 18:31 wizzyrea wow, that would be funny 18:31 brendan would be a riot -- NPR breaks down the community 18:32 wizzyrea we could call the teams "the letter" and the "spirit" 18:33 sekjal well, "the letter" certainly did make a strong play 18:34 brendan "spirit" the sleeping giant - 18:34 brendan well chris is sleeping at least :) 18:34 owen :) 18:34 jdavidb If by "strong play" you mean "a lot of racket that no one much on the other side is impressed by," I think you've hit it on the head. 18:35 jdavidb Like sending a Pop Warner team of 6-year-olds up against the Washington Redskins. 18:38 sekjal I guess I'm lazy. I really don't want to recode Course Reserves when a perfectly good patch is already been written 18:38 sekjal it seems like such a waste 18:38 wizzyrea it is a waste, definitely not the best use of community resources 18:39 sekjal and setting up MFHD support... ::shudder:: 18:39 chris it'll come back 18:39 chris thts the retarded thing 18:39 brendan yay -- goodmorning chris 18:39 sekjal morning, chris 18:39 jdavidb g'morning, chris! 18:39 chris its just a dumb move all round 18:39 wizzyrea you are up really early 18:39 chris_n g'morning for the second time 18:39 chris :) 18:39 wizzyrea what is it, 6ish now? 18:40 chris yeah got a flight at 8.40 18:40 wizzyrea Ahhh 18:40 chris but you are right about the waste 18:42 rhcl Who is Jonathan Sowash? 18:42 chris and again what annoys me more than the actual fork, is the bullshit being thrown around to justify it 18:42 owen LibLime's attorney 18:42 rhcl ic 18:44 sekjal so, if none of us follow LibLime, does that still make them "the leader in open-source solutions for libraries"? 18:44 chris hehe 18:44 chris_n sekjal++ 18:45 brendan don't you mean the global leader? 18:45 chris i would have been nice if they had gone the whole hog 18:45 chris and renamed it 18:46 sekjal LEK... not the most appeal acronym if you pronounce it. 18:47 rhcl "Enterprise" Koha has a "commanding" sound, don't you think? 18:47 chris needs to be rewritten in java for it to be enterprise 18:47 rhcl ada 18:47 chris with oracle 18:47 jdavidb Assember. 18:47 jdavidb assembler, even. 18:47 chris_n yuk 18:48 chris_n assembler++ 18:48 chris assembler might actually work 18:48 chris_n oracle-- 18:48 chris has to be something that wont actually work for enterprise 18:48 rhcl That said, I think it would be great for Koha to be database independent. 18:48 chris imo 15 years of software dev experience anyway :) 18:48 chris rhcl: its on the development plan 18:50 chris catalyst are big postgres users so lots of ppl here interested in working on that 18:52 sekjal it would definitely be nice to have DB options. 18:52 rhcl Firebird! 18:53 chris i have a dbix::class branch that i started work on 18:53 chris i cant show you, and i promise to release the code at some vaguely specified time in the future when its been vetted 18:54 owen :D 18:54 chris but in the real world, its up on my public git repo 18:54 owen chris: be sure to release it not as a patch but as a giant tarball of the whole Koha installation 18:55 chris http://git.workbuffer.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/dbix_class 18:55 chris ill definitely be taking from all of your guys work tho 18:56 gmcharlt chris++ # please do ;) 18:56 sekjal chris: we know you'll release your branch once you've developed other stuff to vette 18:57 chris yes, i need to do this to afford my corvette 18:57 * jdavidb loves it when chris gets riled up and sassy. 18:57 * wizzyrea giggles 18:58 chris hehe 18:58 * wizzyrea really likes the word sassy, and must find more reasons to use it 18:59 * jdavidb thinks wizzy needs to be careful using sassy, since she *is*, and it would call too much attention to her. 19:01 chris rhcl: http://git.workbuffer.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=koha.git;a=tree;f=lib/Koha/Schema;h=f04cfa39433ef6a18d19523f3e8197d62676d5c8;hb=e28ead9cc0b5b9341c1398e8354ca285574e3f9a 19:02 chris i have used this schema to create a postgres and a mysql db 19:02 chris so even just for that alone, its handy 19:02 chris ok, i must go get ready to fly down to the south island where the rest of my family is 19:03 wizzyrea no ferry? 19:03 wizzyrea or too far? 19:03 brendan safe trip chris 19:03 wizzyrea have a good time :D 19:03 chris 45 mins on a plane 19:03 chris 3 hours on ferry + 5 hour drive 19:03 chris plane wins 19:03 wizzyrea vs hours on the boat + drive, yea, that makes sense 19:03 gmcharlt chris: have fun 19:03 sekjal a good flight to you, chris. 19:03 jdavidb Safe journey! 19:04 * wizzyrea has been watching too much Lost, and worries you might fly through a time traveling window and end up in 1974 >.< 19:04 nengard wow - just caught up on 3 hours of chat 19:04 wizzyrea but have a safe trip all the same 19:04 owen +7 hour donkey ride? +11 hour hike? +14 hour crawl? 19:06 * nengard laughs at owen 19:06 * pianohackr|work laughs at nengard 19:07 sekjal hi, nengard 19:07 nengard howdy sekjal 19:08 brendan heya nengard 19:09 jdavidb Hi, nengard! 19:10 nengard hey owen - i have a bone to pick me - something about needing 2 companies to tame me!!! 19:10 owen :) 19:10 owen You're right. You shall never be tamed! 19:11 gmcharlt lol 19:12 * jdavidb thought about commenting on that, but he is older and possibly-wiser, in his lucid moments, and didn't. 19:13 nengard you know, i read a few posts a while about about women in open source 19:14 nengard an apparently many women feel like they don't fit in 19:14 nengard i just feel like the punching bag :) hehe 19:14 nengard everyone pick on Nicole 19:14 nengard she can take it 19:14 wizzyrea awww 19:14 nengard hehe 19:14 wizzyrea nooo 19:14 nengard LOL 19:14 brendan http://www.liblime.com/products/koha/koha-express/koha-express-opac-customization 19:14 nengard I'm totally kidding 19:14 pianohackr|work nengard: Don't forget wizzyrea 19:14 * jdavidb falls out of his chair laughing. 19:15 nengard pianohackr|work: yes, but you're all nice to her ;) hehe 19:15 pianohackr|work nengard: When you're around, yes :) 19:15 nengard hehe 19:15 wizzyrea it's true 19:15 wizzyrea I get teased all the time 19:15 * jdavidb picks on wizzyrea almost as much as he picks on nengard. 19:16 nengard brendan: LOL 19:17 brendan something -- is always worth more ;) 19:17 * jdavidb makes up a big box of clues, addresses it to Tina Burger, and puts it in the mail. 19:18 wizzyrea dharsh 19:18 sekjal screenshot snagged 19:19 wizzyrea lol harsh 19:19 * pianohackr|work hides 19:19 sekjal its the little chuckles that get me through the day 19:19 wizzyrea there are enough reasons to vilify them, neglectful marketing is pretty far down the list 19:19 wizzyrea :) 19:21 brendan ah bummer -- I gotta run out the door --- 19:21 brendan talk with you all later -- enjoy the weekend 19:21 sekjal see ya, brendan! 19:21 sekjal you, too 19:23 wizzyrea bye brendan 19:31 * chris_n spreads himself yet thinner :-P 19:32 wizzyrea like butter over too much bread? 19:34 chris_n hehe 19:35 chris_n its really a case of more hats than head to put them on 19:36 wizzyrea I think that's my favorite line from all of the LOTR movies 19:38 Nate my favorite has to be "I wish it need not have have happened in my time,’ said Frodo. 19:38 Nate ‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.’ 19:39 wizzyrea that's a good one too 19:39 * jdavidb blinks, as his English parser crashes. 19:40 wizzyrea lol 19:40 wizzyrea ...they changed somethign 19:40 wizzyrea something* 19:43 * jdavidb has had all the fun he can take for one day. Y'all have a good weekend. 19:43 pianohackr|work See ya 19:43 sekjal you, too, jdavidb 19:45 pianohackr|work wizzyrea: What did they change? 19:45 wizzyrea in the matrix 19:46 wizzyrea Nate had a deja vu in his LOTR quote 19:46 pianohackr|work Hehe 20:03 owen Have a good weekend everyone. Looking forward to more fireworks next week! 20:03 sekjal cheers, owen 20:09 sekjal going to head for my train. until next week, everyone! 20:18 * chris_n heads out 20:55 wizzyrea heh http://lybrarian.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/changes-at-liblime/ 21:10 pianohackr|work Quick, everybody, make some drama! 21:10 wizzyrea Yay! 21:18 chris_n2 ha... "A man without culture is like a zebra without stripes." 21:24 pianohackr|work chris_n2: ? 21:26 chris_n2 oh.... sorry.... that was totally unrelated to wizzyrea 's obervation :-) 21:26 chris_n2 I thought it was interesting in light of zebra being koha's indexing engine 21:26 chris_n2 it's supposed to be an old African proverb 21:29 chris_n2 although forking with an attitude might constitute a certain lack of culture in its own right 21:30 pianohackr|work Yes... 22:57 pianohackr|work ttfn