Time  Nick       Message
01:35 ricardo    Bye
01:35 ricardo    ( s/updated/update    gee...)
01:34 ricardo    Take care!  :)
01:34 ricardo    However, it's already 2H30 AM (!) here in Portugal, and I will only be able to updated those instructions for the INSTALL.opensuse file tomorrow night (night here in Portugal, probably afternoon there in the US)
01:33 ricardo    kados: In the case you read this - I just updated my Installation Instructions for Koha 3 in openSUSE 11.0 in the Koha Developer Wiki - http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=opensuse_11.0
01:27 ricardo    kados: are you still here?
23:38 ricardo    davi: Good night!
23:38 davi       night
23:37 ricardo    davi: Sure
23:35 davi       let see what we get out from this...
23:34 ricardo    davi: You're welcome  :)
23:33 davi       thanks
23:32 ricardo    http://www.kohadocs.org/Koha_architecture.html
23:32 ricardo    Koha Architectural Study
23:31 davi       That can be an start. Any URI?
23:31 ricardo    Seriously though, there's a Koha Architecture Guide for v2
23:31 davi       :) I see
23:30 ricardo    davi: "Abandon hope all ye who enter here"  ;-)
23:29 davi       Or else an 'analysis' or 'design' document?
23:29 davi       Now, I want to understand the Koha source code. Is there any architecture document or similar?
23:20 ricardo    Yep
23:19 davi       It could be a way to follow
23:18 ricardo    davi: Well, I like to believe that nerds / geeks are curious by nature.
23:16 davi       :)
23:16 davi       I am just a robot, a nerd
23:16 ricardo    Eheh... I understand
23:15 davi       I would like to learn why it was failing, but not now :)
23:12 ricardo    I must admit I think I'll never understand WHY that works. Oh well..
23:11 davi       :)
23:11 ricardo    GREAT!!! :D
23:11 gmcharlt   yay!
23:11 davi       lynx localhost:8080 works now! thanks
23:11 davi
23:03 davi       OK, I am going to follow gmcharlt advice
23:03 ricardo    davi: Yep... That's weird (why would it show 4.20 instead of 4.30? puzzled...). Oh well. Follow gmcharlt's advice
23:03 gmcharlt   2. follow INSTALL
23:02 davi       The directory   /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/  which I removed has been regenerated.
23:02 gmcharlt   1. download and unpack http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/R/RS/RSAVAGE/CGI-Session-Serialize-yaml-4.21.tgz
23:02 gmcharlt   davi: try install manually
23:01 ricardo    You've got to admire JSON::Syck for its persistence!  ;-)
23:01 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 57/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
23:01 davi       Failed again:
23:01 davi
22:56 davi       :D
22:56 ricardo    davi:  Crossing fingers here, for what it's worth...   :)
22:55 davi       perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'  # again
22:55 davi
22:55 davi       done
22:55 davi       rm -rf CGI-Session-4.20
22:55 davi       rm -rf CGI-Session-3.95
22:53 davi       ?
22:53 davi          rm -rf
22:53 davi       What command to clean it?
22:52 gmcharlt   it's pulling from CGI-Session-4.20 - try clearing your CPAN cache under /root/.cpan/build
22:51 davi       #   Failed test 'Previously stored object loaded successfully'
22:51 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 70/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
22:51 davi       Shit! same error again:
22:51 davi
22:46 davi       thanks
22:46 davi         perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'
22:46 gmcharlt   davi: once you have the 4.30 CGI::Session, try installing the YAML serializer again
22:45 davi          install.pl: Can't locate object method "generate_id" via package "CGI::Session::ID::" (perhaps you forgot to load "CGI::Session::ID::"?) at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm line 74.
22:45 davi          ...
22:45 davi          install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
22:45 davi          ...
22:45 davi          mainpage.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.auth_types' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Koha.pm line 340.
22:45 davi       But I get yet:
22:45 davi
22:44 davi         I had forgot execute:  # make install
22:44 davi       Now I have the version of 4.30 CGI::Session
22:35 davi       :)
22:35 ricardo    davi: You really should NOT believe the marketing brochure so much...  ;-)
22:35 davi       When I grow I want to be a nerd, due to nerds are the more happy people in the world
22:34 davi       :)
22:34 ricardo    LOL
22:33 davi       I use to be wrong except when I am right
22:32 ricardo    davi: I'm always right... except when I'm wrong!  ;-)
22:31 davi         ...
22:31 davi         wget http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/M/MA/MARKSTOS/CGI-Session-4.30.tar.gz
22:31 davi       Let me install it again
22:31 davi       Oops! you are right!
22:31 davi
22:31 ricardo    davi: I'm afraid not
22:30 ricardo    http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=Makefile.PL
22:30 davi       ricardo, Do you have a VirtualBox image with Koha 3.0 which I could download?
22:30 ricardo    davi: Hmmm... Makefile.PL lists the required (minimum) version as being 4.10:
22:30 davi
22:29 davi       I fear I am messing the Ubuntu installation with some of the instruction only right for OpenSuse
22:29 davi
22:29 davi         as adviced at the Ubuntu guide: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
22:28 davi        CGI::Session::VERSION  3.95
22:28 davi
22:27 davi               all skipped: Couldn't establish connection with the MySQL server: Can't connect to data source '' because I can't work out what driver to use (it doesn't seem to contain a 'dbi:driver:' prefix and the DBI_DRIVER env var is not set) at t/g4_mysql.t line 44
22:27 davi       t/g4_mysql......................skipped
22:27 davi       MySQL fails too. So the same than before installing such packages:
22:27 davi
22:27 ricardo    davi: Really? Interesting. What's your version?
22:27 davi       Why is it referencing  CGI-Session-4.20 ?   I have an older version of CGI-Session.
22:25 davi
22:25 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 60/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
22:25 davi       Same problem with JSON
22:25 davi
22:21 davi       :)
22:21 ricardo    Eheh
22:21 davi       Oops! thanks. I forgot it  ;-)
22:20 ricardo    davi: Yep, that's the correct line. You do realize that you also have to paste it in the Linux shell, don't you?  ;-)
22:19 davi         perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'
22:18 ricardo    OK. Good luck
22:18 davi       Let me try to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml now
22:17 ricardo    davi:  Just checked http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/libyaml-perl  - it seems to install the YAML Perl Package (and not CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml). So I guess that after installing libyaml-perl and libyaml-syck-perl, it's perfectly OK to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
22:16 davi       ok, thanks
22:16 davi       So, was it right and enough the installation of the libyaml-perl one?
22:16 ricardo    davi: I would install also the libyaml-syck-perl package
22:15 davi
22:15 davi       no more YAML perl packages.
22:15 davi         libyaml-tiny-perl - Read/Write YAML files with as little code as possible
22:15 davi         libyaml-syck-perl - Fast, lightweight YAML loader and dumper
22:15 davi         libyaml-perl - YAML Ain't Markup Language (tm)
22:15 davi       I have:
22:14 davi       I do not know if besides the libyaml-perl ubuntu package it is needed some other one
22:14 ricardo    davi:  I'm guessing the libyaml-perl is for the YAML::Syck package, but I may be wrong. Let me see
22:14 davi       I have not tryed it install it form CPAN again
22:14 davi       I just installed the  Ubuntu package
22:13 ricardo    davi: Try now to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
22:13 ricardo    davi:  Hmmm... But you don't get anymore the JSON error?
22:13 davi         install.pl: Can't locate CGI/Session/Serialize/yaml.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /build/kohaclone /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at (eval 15) line 3.
22:13 davi         install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178
22:13 ricardo    davi: Darn!  :(
22:13 davi       I get again:
22:13 davi       not solved
22:13 davi
22:08 davi       thanks
22:08 ricardo    davi: I would try the libyaml-perl path first
22:08 davi       What do you think is better: install the Ubuntu package or "force install CGI::Session" ?
22:07 davi       I have located this Ubuntu package:   libyaml-perl - YAML Ain't Markup Language (tm)
22:07 davi
22:07 davi       ?
22:07 davi         "force install CGI::Session"
22:07 davi       so, you advise force it?
22:07 davi       Such paste is the output of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  not CGI::Session
22:05 ricardo    This is why I now install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml "instead" of "CGI::Session"
22:05 ricardo    davi: Reading... Yep, sounds familiar, all right. I think that when I got this, I ended up doing a "force install CGI::Session". No, I don't like it either but it seemed to solve it  :-/
22:03 davi       That is the output of the installation:  http://rafb.net/p/jnik8F61.html
22:03 kados      acmoore: probably would make sense to announce this on koha-devel too
22:02 acmoore    announcing this again FYI: There's a news bot in #kohanews on freenode. It announces things like updates to git and bugzilla. I find it more convenient than using a RSS reader for those things. some developers may be intereseted in idling there. feel free to.
22:00 ricardo    davi: Try to install the YAML Perl module... Maybe Ubuntu has a package for that?
22:00 davi       thanks
22:00 gmcharlt   yes, the YAML serializer is required
21:59 davi       So do you think  CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  is actually needed?
21:59 davi       OK, so not needed. thanks.
21:59 ricardo    davi: CGISESS_MYSQL_DSN? First time I hear about that one
21:58 davi       Otherwise, you can set these variables:
21:58 davi       environment variables.
21:58 davi       The simplest method is to use the standard "DBI_DSN/DBI_USER/DBI_PASS"
21:58 ricardo    davi: Hmmm.... It is related - http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2008-May/013815.html - but yes, it may be different
21:58 davi       It reads:
21:58 davi       Maybe I should set the CGISESS_MYSQL_DSN  environment variables before starting the installation of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml ?
21:57 davi       I think the above error is different than the one exposed at such link.
21:57 davi       I have already installed an specific version of CGI::Session
21:55 ricardo    See if that solves the problem for you
21:55 ricardo    http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2008-May/013842.html
21:55 ricardo    davi: One user reported that he managed to solved that JSON problem by downloading CGI::Session and installing it directly (instead of using CPAN):
21:55 davi       The CGI::Session::ID::MD5 installation did not solve the CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml installation problem.
21:54 davi
21:54 davi               all skipped: Couldn't establish connection with the MySQL server: Can't connect to data source '' because I can't work out what driver to use (it doesn't seem to contain a 'dbi:driver:' prefix and the DBI_DRIVER env var is not set) at t/g4_mysql.t line 44
21:54 davi       t/g4_mysql......................skipped
21:54 davi       ...
21:54 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 64/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
21:54 davi       Same error again:
21:54 davi
21:53 ricardo    davi: Maybe... I don't have any info regarding that (I run it on a typical Intel Pentium 4 - *playing mandatory Intel advertising sound*  ;-)
21:53 davi          with PAE or without PAE support.
21:52 davi       the Xen hipervisor
21:52 davi       I have and old AMD Athlon, so I think I have some problems to boot
21:51 ricardo    But yes, I like Xen
21:51 ricardo    davi: Well... Xen is included with SLES (SUSE Linux Enterprise Server), so that's what I ended up using  :)
21:49 davi       Your positive comment re-force my intention to try Xen.
21:49 davi       ricardo, I will go with Xen when time allow me.
21:48 ricardo    OK. Good luck!  :)
21:48 davi       ricardo, CGI::Session::ID::MD5    installed rightly. I am going now with  CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  again.
21:47 ricardo    davi: OK... I use VirtualBox in Windows (for running openSUSE 11.0) and it is reasonably light-weight (much lighter than VMware, at least). In Linux, I use Xen. I never tried Qemu, though
21:46 davi       Debian stable 'etch'
21:46 davi       GNU/Linux
21:46 ricardo    davi: Hmmm.... Qemu runs under Linux or Windows?
21:46 ricardo    gmcharlt: Very nice... Thanks for the info. So I'll grab again that latest snapshot development version. That will also improve (and "ease up" a bit) my tutorial.
21:46 davi       ricardo, My Qemu virtual machine is slow
21:45 gmcharlt   ricardo: the patch moving the items test was just approved
21:44 ricardo    davi: OK. Did you install CGI::Session::ID::MD5 already?
21:44 ricardo    gmcharlt: Do you know if that patch has already been submitted & approved?
21:44 ricardo    gmcharlt: Ah great! Thanks for the feedback!  :)
21:43 gmcharlt   ricardo: it will, in fact, be going away due to a patch from acmoore
21:43 ricardo    gmcharlt / kados: Is this really harmless.... or NOT?
21:43 ricardo    "  t/Items.....................ok 2/28Use of uninitialized value $db_driver in concatenation (.) or string at /root/Koha/blib/PERL_MODULE_DIR/C4/Context.pm line 628.Can't connect to data source 'dbname=__DB_NAME__;host=__DB_HOST__;port=__DB_PORT__' because I can't work out what driver to use   "
21:41 davi       you must correct me, please
21:41 ricardo    gmcharlt / kados (other):  in my tutorial I have these lines (that seem to have no bad consequences, but...):
21:41 ricardo    davi: Oh OK :)
21:41 davi           perl -MCPAN -e 'install Package::...'
21:41 ricardo    BTW: In my tutorial I have these lines (that seem to have no bad consequences, but...):
21:41 davi       I have installed all the packages from CPAN
21:40 ricardo    davi: Try to install that (from CPAN)...
21:38 ricardo    Yep. At least, it has that name ->  CGI::Session::ID::MD5
21:37 davi       ok, thanks
21:37 ricardo    davi: Try to install CGI::Session::ID::MD5 first (I think... let me check)
21:36 davi       Can I go on?
21:36 davi       Can be go on?
21:36 ricardo    right
21:36 davi       ...
21:36 davi       DIED. FAILED tests 84, 90, 92-101
21:36 davi               Test returned status 255 (wstat 65280, 0xff00)
21:36 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................dubious
21:35 davi       ...
21:35 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 64/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
21:35 davi       I get some failed tests when installing such package
21:34 ricardo    davi: Well, at least I appreciate detailed info that/when it is relevant  :)
21:33 davi       ricardo, It is lot of work but it is better when well detailed
21:33 ricardo    (I had one internal documentation that included ALL the output of CPAN Module installations, file extractions and such for Koha AND had some screenshots... that went over a thousand pages, believe it or not...)
21:31 ricardo    gmcharlt: Eheh... Thanks!  :)
21:31 gmcharlt   ricardo: "complete" is a friendlier word ;)
21:31 ricardo    davi: True... I'm usually pretty detailed in my documentation (you might call it "boring"  ;-)
21:30 davi       Your*
21:30 davi       ricardo, You guide is a lot longer than the Ubuntu one at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
21:27 ricardo    On the other hand, I seem to recall hdl talking about some CGI::something::mysql  perl module that would be useful. I'll search the IRC logs for that now
21:26 ricardo    davi: eheh
21:24 davi       I am tiny :)
21:24 ricardo    davi: LOL! Well, I was not expecting my Guide to have an impact *that* big, eheh... But thanks, I will take that as a compliment  :)
21:23 davi       I take note of your guide ricardo!  Maybe I will move from Ubuntu to OpenSUSE
21:23 ricardo    I'm guessing that I won't have the problem with the missing dependency for Algorithm::CheckDigits this time since MJ Ray promptly corrected that (so that section will probably be deleted from the wiki / INSTALL.opensuse file)...
21:21 ricardo    :)
21:21 kados      ricardo++
21:21 ricardo    kados: BTW - I'm reviewing that tutorial (and doing some minor changes) with a fresh installation of openSUSE 11.0 final (I'll use the latest Koha development version for it).
21:20 ricardo    davi: That solved my CGI::Session problems for me (installing CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml is what I recommend in my Installation Tutorial of Koha 3 in openSUSE 11.0 at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=opensuse_11.0
21:18 davi       I will*
21:18 davi       I report to all you with the result, after installing CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
21:18 davi       My*
21:17 davi       kados, I Qemu virtual machine is very slow :-)
21:17 ricardo    kados: Hi Joshua!  :)
21:17 kados      ricardo: hiya
21:17 kados      davi: did it work for ya?
21:13 ricardo    Hi all
21:08 gmcharlt   there may be something more - lemme double-check quickly
21:08 gmcharlt   yes, that would be a minimum
21:07 kados      gmcharlt: so installation of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml with version 4.30 fixes the issues, should we just require that now?
21:06 gmcharlt   yes
21:06 gmcharlt   kados: agreed
21:06 kados      gmcharlt: shoudl we add notes to the installation docs?
21:06 kados      gmcharlt: the cgi-session issues alone probably need to be documented explicifly
21:05 davi       let me do it, thanks
21:05 gmcharlt   davi: one being CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
21:04 gmcharlt   davi: now that you have CGI::Session 4.30, there are a couple additional modules you can install from CPAN that shoudl complete things
21:03 davi       So maybe the source of the error is at another location
21:03 davi         mainpage.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.auth_types' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Koha.pm line 340
21:03 davi       The first error line I get at   koha-error_log  is:
21:03 davi
21:02 davi       It is correct as documented at the Ubuntu installation guide.
21:02 davi       I have installed CGI::Session 4.30
20:56 davi         http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
20:56 davi       as the Ubuntu guide advices
20:56 davi       Shit!  I have already installed it from   http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/M/MA/MARKSTOS/CGI-Session-4.30.tar.gz
20:55 atz        like the slightly older version
20:55 davi       I will ask  mc  tomorrow for the CGI::Session package version to install.
20:55 atz        davi: it might
20:54 davi       Will work if I download and overwrite installing an specific version of the CGI::Session package?
20:52 thd        good night paul
20:52 paul       I'll be back tomorrow afternoon (FR afternoon)
20:52 paul       really time to go to bed for me.
20:51 thd        Anyways, I will have the MARC 21 frameworks up to date by tomorrow and I assume gmcharlt is fixing the unreported general data loss bug which had concerned me.
20:51 paul       that at least need some warnings in Release Notes !
20:51 paul       yep
20:51 atz        yeah, that one is not directly our fault, but a serious problem anyway
20:51 paul       mc has more infos about that
20:50 davi       thanks paul, and good night
20:50 paul       that one being a problem that could delay the release...
20:50 atz        CGI::Session::yaml perhaps ?
20:50 paul       you must also install another one, I don't remember which one, sorry (11PM in France... i'm tired)
20:49 paul       davi : there's a problem with CGI::Session package, that has been splitted recently by the package maintainer.
20:49 atz        looks like unpopulated code trying to make the serializer a variable?
20:49 davi       Let me try to install it
20:48 davi       Maybe I missed the installation of some Perl package?
20:48 davi       source code bug   or   installation bug?
20:47 kados      ahha, there's the culprit I bet
20:47 davi         install.pl: Can't locate object method "generate_id" via package "CGI::Session::ID::" (perhaps you forgot to load "CGI::Session::ID::"?) at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm line 74.
20:47 davi         install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
20:46 kados      davi: that's the one
20:46 davi       koha-error_log
20:45 atz        davi: your errors should be in the locations specified by your koha .conf file as ErrorLog
20:45 kados      davi: check the other koha log
20:44 paul       thd++
20:44 thd        wait too long to release and you also loose reputation
20:44 atz        right now I'm servicing client tickets for 3 reports in 3.0 that just break
20:44 paul       that's better than not releasing imo
20:44 paul       So, release, & specify what is know to be unstable or working poorly.
20:44 davi       kados, No error at /var/log/apache2/error.log  or at  koha-dev/var/log/koha-opac-error_log   !!!
20:44 kados      davi: no errors in the apache logs?
20:43 kados      thd: *nod* ... mine too
20:43 thd        My concern is only too keep the good reputation of Koha.
20:43 kados      paul: and I could list 100 US libraries that want 3.0 to be stable ;-)
20:43 davi       kados,  (1) I execute   lynx http://localhost:8080   (2)  mainpage.pl and install.pl get CPU  (3)  lynx shows "production mode - trapped fatal error"
20:43 paul       + when releasing you can express the limits of the release & the caveats.
20:43 paul       mmm... kados, i've seen only 2 ppl expressing their opinion. I could list 10 french libraries that want 3.0 now...
20:43 atz        regardless of what INSTALL says
20:43 kados      atz: *nod*
20:43 kados      thd: true, that may be what we have to do for 3.0
20:43 atz        otherwise everybody will expect it to work
20:43 atz        if the warnings were there in the interface that might matter
20:42 kados      chris: not just my opinion anymore :-) others on-list have expressed similar sentiments
20:42 kados      as can be seen on the list traffic
20:42 thd        The caveats should be noted prominently without scaring people just so they do not get the wrong idea and assume the claim is that all works perfectly and never look again when they find that it does not.
20:42 chris      ah well, your entitled to your opinion
20:42 kados      I think there's a lot of pressure to release software that's not ready
20:42 paul       yes, but is you want to move forward as a community, you should not ignore other's position ?  (sorry to be rude)
20:42 kados      chris: yep :-)
20:42 chris      are you suggesting we are now?
20:41 kados      I sincerely hope that as we move forward as a community we not hide our heads in the sand about major issues like this
20:40 paul       yep
20:40 gmcharlt   paul: which role? 3.0 maintainer?
20:40 thd        kados: you want to go directly to 3.2 from 3.0 with only 3.1 between them?
20:40 paul       I agree to have BibLibre take that role.
20:39 kados      because I think it will be too much overhead for this community
20:39 thd        exactly I think paul just said it perfectly
20:39 gmcharlt   but there's a question: how long do we want to keep up 3.0.x?
20:39 paul       so, the rule is :
20:39 paul       thd: once a quarter is OK once it's really stable
20:39 gmcharlt   for 3.2, I'm happy releasing checkpoints releases more often
20:38 paul       thd: I agree.
20:38 paul       to continue feedback with my experience : the DB stabilisation is the 1st thing to do to get a stable software
20:38 thd        paul: I think that 1 quarter is too long to wait for 3.0.1 though.
20:38 gmcharlt   thd: that's no excuse, though
20:38 kados      paul++ for releasing on schedule
20:37 paul       thd++
20:37 kados      thd: *nod*
20:37 thd        paul kados: In the real world no one trust an X.0 release of anything anyways.
20:37 paul       that was my goal, and I succeded to do it !
20:37 paul       when I was 2.2RM, I used to release a subversion once every quarter.
20:37 paul       OF COURSE !
20:36 thd        paul kados: so release and keep the pace of fixing the serious bugs and bugs which scare librarians
20:35 paul       gmcharlt: I agree. It don't mean those bugs must be ignored. Just that they should not prevent us from releasing.
20:35 kados      davi: anything in the apache logs?
20:35 kados      davi: what's the rest of the error?
20:35 davi       kados, I get "production mode - trapped fatal error" after fixing the Apache configuration. Now it is better but do not work yet.
20:35 davi       kados, You were right about my Apache configuration was broken.
20:34 thd        normalise the search query and you solve that bug quickly for some practical purpose even if you have not traced it
20:34 paul       some other one just need a warning in release notes to be workarounded, for example : 2178
20:34 gmcharlt   paul: well, as some larger and/or more sophisticated libraries adopt Koha, those bugs become more critical
20:33 paul       or circulation reports too big
20:33 paul       for example ':' character blocks search
20:33 davi       kados, mainpage.pl and install.pl was executed before I got such error at lynx
20:33 paul       kados: except 2297, all other blo are "long time" blo bugs, that are a problem only in some circumstances.
20:33 kados      chris: but I seriously doubt they would have released stable versions of apache with blocker bugs
20:33 chris      there was years in between
20:33 thd        paul: I think that you should issue many minor releases quickly until the serious bugs have been fixed.
20:33 chris      well only in the last few months
20:33 kados      chris: ahh, well we've done releases too by that metric
20:32 chris      yep, they have dev branches and they release from them
20:32 davi         production mode - trapped fatal error
20:32 davi       kados, Accessing to the koha:8080 via lynx I have got:
20:32 kados      blockers? really? like 'virtual hosts don't work', something that major?
20:32 thd        paul: my only worry is that once 3.0 is released 3.0.1 would not come out for months
20:32 chris      yes
20:32 kados      chris: did apache release a product with blocker bugs?
20:31 paul       it has been released stable, and it was really unuseable !
20:31 gmcharlt   if we do a bugfix 3.0.1 in a month's time, that might be managable, but it will give us at least one complicated DB schema change to work through, if we consider the serials bugs that hdl is working on to be blockers that should be fixed for 3.0.1
20:31 paul       look at kde 4 !
20:31 thd        paul: I agree with you
20:31 chris      and 2.2 is at .9 already
20:31 chris      heck apache 2.0 is at .63
20:31 paul       chris: ++
20:31 paul       I don't speak as a business man here.
20:31 chris      i think we need to get back to the release early release often mantra
20:31 kados      paul: examples?
20:31 paul       many project died from "search for perfection"
20:30 paul       thd: that's exactly the kind of things that will make koha 3.0 NEVER be released... after standard, we will find something else to improve, then something else, then ...
20:30 thd        paul kados: When I made the start of an argument like that earlier, slef and owen did not think that standards should be lowered to satisfy business needs.
20:28 thd        paul: If 3.0.1 would take three months to issue on some schedule, then I think that you should wait for some more bug fixes before releasing 3.0.
20:27 thd        paul: If you release 3.0 now and release 3.0.1 in a month, then I think releasing 3,0 now or within a week is good.
20:25 thd        paul: I understand your need to release 3.0 now
20:25 paul       (sorry, tired & late here)
20:24 thd        kados paul: If you would be OK releasing 3.0.1 in a month I would be understanding of your need to release 3.0 long ago and say that it is OK to release now or a week from now.
20:24 hdl_laptop kados : I sent some patches on Friday, which really fix some broken things.
20:23 davi       kados, I am going to check the apache conf. Thanks
20:23 davi          Note: opac-main.pl get 90% CPU
20:22 chris      and hdl
20:22 chris      goodnight paul
20:22 kados      davi: maybe an issue with your apache conf?
20:22 davi       Connection closed by foreign host.
20:22 davi       GET /
20:22 davi       Escape character is '^]'.
20:22 davi       Connected to localhost.
20:22 davi       Trying 127.0.0.1...
20:22 davi       # telnet localhost 8080
20:22 davi       kados, lynx does not work neither. I am checking with    telnet localhost 8080
20:22 gmcharlt   hi chris
20:22 paul       hi chris. time to go to bed for frenchies... (10:30PM)
20:21 chris      morning
20:21 hdl_laptop it may be safer.
20:21 hdl_laptop But since it adds 2 tables, changes subscription table and add a new dependency (Roman)
20:19 hdl_laptop it would have been ready.
20:19 hdl_laptop And would jquery and all the javascript stuff not be such a new thing for me,
20:19 hdl_laptop i would have LOVED to get them ready for 3.0
20:18 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: honestly,
20:18 gmcharlt   hdl_laptop: I haven't had a chance to look at them yet
20:18 gmcharlt   hdl_laptop: are the subscription-add patches you sent me and ccatalfo potentially for 3.0, or do you think they'll need more work and should be for 3.2
20:18 kados      davi: that's almost like running a script ;-)
20:18 kados      davi: no, it has to be done via a web browser, but you could use lynx on the server if you only have command-line access to the server
20:17 hdl_laptop kados: I have sent some.
20:17 davi       Can I execute some script to do the web installation?
20:16 kados      hdl_laptop: paul has confirmed, but I just wanted to check with you -- you will not have serials patches ready for 3.0, right?
20:16 paul       hdl_laptop: i've written that already to kados ;-)
20:16 hdl_laptop but on holidays.
20:16 davi       I get such error with nothing on the browser.
20:16 hdl_laptop kados yes.
20:15 davi       I can not execute the web install because when I access to  intranet.koha , that is to say 8080
20:14 davi
20:14 davi         DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
20:14 davi       and the below error in logs:
20:13 davi         nothing on the browser
20:13 davi       Trying to access the intranet.koha URL I get:
20:07 kados      hdl_laptop: are you really here?
20:07 gmcharlt   that or the laptop is working, but hdl is still on vacation ;)
20:06 paul       hehe... hdl_laptop seems to be unable to be in holidays ;-)
20:04 paul       + branch head for 3.2
20:04 paul       so, I'd said : let's go with 3.0, and continue with 3.0.1, even if it's 1 month after 3.0.0
20:03 paul       but my opinion is unchanged : we have delayed 3.0 really too too too much. and it start to be a real problem for us. + I strongly think we can continue debugguing for months or even years without releasing anything.
20:02 kados      thoughts?
20:02 paul       yes, I've seen.
20:01 kados      paul: it seems some people don't want me to release it with blocker/critical/major bugs
20:00 kados      paul: have you seen the traffic on koha-devel about delaying 3.0 release?
20:00 paul       right
20:00 kados      ok, that answers that question
20:00 kados      paul: so I guess we won't see any serials patches then :-)
20:00 paul       nope. He's in holiday for 2 weeks
20:00 kados      hi :-)
19:59 paul       hi kados.
19:59 kados      paul: do you know if hdl is available?
19:49 thd        ccatalfo: The conservative MARC people want textual strings, which are necessarily language specific, and make for poor cross-national record sharing.  However, the RDA working group proposal was technically deficient for accommodating both interests and deserved to fail.
19:48 ccatalfo   thd: interesting
19:47 thd        ccatalfo: Also, the last MARBI meeting rejected all RDA working group proposals for using URIs for vocabulary such as relator terms specifying the role of an author as illustrator, editor, etc.
19:44 thd        ccatalfo: The DC-RDA group is working on doing just that using URIs but we still have to be backwards compatible until the revolution comes
19:42 ccatalfo   if only we just put the linking control number in there instead of the text...would be so much easier...
19:42 gmcharlt   thd: gotcha.  thanks
19:40 thd        gmcharlt: German practise which I did not quote fully uses adjacent repeated fields instead of attempting to accommodate a complex expression in one subdivided field.
19:37 thd        gmcharlt: http://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806&L=marc&T=0&P=6868
19:35 thd        gmcharlt: I asked that very question citing divergent practise on the MARC list and while no one answered on list I received a private reply from the LC member of MARBI that the issue needs studying.
19:34 thd        gmcharlt: The UNIMARC equivalent $3 I discovered a week ago was made repeatable to conform to practise at French libraries for that very issue.
19:33 thd        gmcharlt: $0 is repeatable but under review for how well that works.
19:32 thd        ccatalfo: At French Koha libraries $9 taken from the Koha record ID and they build primitive authority records in most cases internally from existing values in authority controlled fields.
19:30 gmcharlt   thd: re $0, has anybody come up with a decent proposal to handle subject headings that are linked to one main authority record and N subdivision records?
19:29 ccatalfo   is the koha's $9 the control number from the authority record?  so that $0 would be the same as $9?
19:27 thd        ... provided we have real authority records which have an LCCN or other number from a standards body
19:27 ccatalfo   thd: thanks, this is all good information.  FYI, at the moment, Biblios does not do any linking with koha $9.  So it's not suitable for authority work within koha as things stand now.  But, these are good things to keep in mind when we do implement better authority integration.
19:24 thd        ccatalfo: However, if you also use $0 we can update authorised values using the LCCN from the NACO and SACO database.
19:23 thd        ccatalfo: You should still use $9 for Koha internally with the internal control number so the Koha code will use the authority correctly.
19:22 thd        ccatalfo: Such nifty things were added for MAB2 format integration with MARC 21 for Germany and Austria
19:20 ccatalfo   am i correct in remembering that koha is using a different subfield for linking, $9?
19:20 ccatalfo   thd: no, I had not seen that.  that's very good to know.  So I can pull in that authority control number as well as the text, and not display the $0...
19:18 thd        ccatalfo: Also have you seen that the latest MARC 21 update provides an official place to put an authority record control number such as 650 ## $0 (DLC) sh1356358 $a some subject ?
19:15 ccatalfo   thd: it ought to tab right through it even thought it is an ajax dropdown
19:15 ccatalfo   thd: you're right - that tab not working is definitely a defect
19:14 thd        ccatalfo: Yet I should be able to move quickly through the field even if I do not want to change a particular authorised value or if my connection is down, etc.
19:13 ccatalfo   thd: basically, yes.  It's meant to query an sru authorities server for authorized values for that field.  The querying part is implemented but we don't have it pointing at a valid server at the moment (on koha.liblime.com)
19:11 thd        ccatalfo: Is the authority controlled field block there as some anchor for a nifty authorised value filling feature which has not yet been implemented?
19:10 ccatalfo   thd: ok, good to know.
19:10 thd        ccatalfo: I noticed the authority controlled fields but did not test extensively.
19:09 ccatalfo   thd: ok, thanks.  Are there other places tab isn't working, then?  Or it the authority controlled fields?
19:09 thd        ccatalfo: so yes, I was addressing you about the Biblios record editor.
19:08 thd        ccatalfo: I do not get stuck on the authority controlled fields in the semantically labelled editor.  I get stuck elsewhere in that editor but I expect less productivity from that editor in some ways.
19:06 thd        ryan: I think there are user interface problems for doing real work in all of the record editors which did not exist in 2.2.X
19:06 ccatalfo   thd: just to clarify, you do mean the Biblios editor, not the cataloging editor in Koha?
19:05 thd        ccatalfo: I was hoping that it was masking some function for the authority controlled fields.
19:05 ryan       thd: you are referring to the standard MARC editor, right?  not Biblios ?
19:04 ccatalfo   thd: are you experiencing this tabbing issue in the Biblios editor in any particular circumstances?  I'm aware that tabbing is not working from authority controlled fields.  Is that what you've seen?
19:03 thd        ryan: 2206 was not the issue for controlling subfield visibility in the authorities record editor using the authorities frameworks.
19:02 thd        kados: Many issues relating to using the keyboard do not work as well therefore it takes much longer to do real work.
19:01 thd        kados: I mean things like when I tab through the fields for the Biblios record editor I get stuck and tab stops working.
19:00 kados      2.2.9 has a lot more blocker bugs IMO than 3.0RC1
18:59 atz        thd: there are bugs, but the install process alone is so much better than 2.2
18:59 kados      i agree we have a lot of improvements that could be made, but I really don't think you can compare it to a 2.2.x release
18:59 ryan       thd: you are referring above to bug 2206 ?  yes, it's been fixed.
18:59 thd        kados: yes I ma very serious about some user interface issues which I never saw on late versions of 2.2.X
18:58 kados      thd: it's much more polished than a koha release has ever been, in so many ways
18:58 kados      thd: I completely disagree :-)
18:58 kados      thd: are you serious?
18:58 thd        kados: yet, it seems much less polished than 2.2.X for all its advances.
18:57 kados      thd: so we can start working on 3.2
18:57 kados      thd: we really need to get this release out
18:57 kados      thd: good question
18:56 thd        kados: in relation to bugs, are you going to announce a new release date or announce that a date will be fixed when the lingering important bugs have been fixed along with any newly reported important bugs?
18:55 kados      (feel free to check on koha.liblime.com
18:55 kados      if there wasn't, please file one if the problem still exists
18:55 kados      thd: check for a bug(I think there was one)
18:54 thd        kados: was such a bug filed or do you mean file then check?
18:53 kados      thd: check bugzilla?
18:53 kados      thd: I'm not sure
18:53 thd        ?
18:53 thd        kados: has the issue of visibility using the hidden column been fixed for the authorities record editor
18:53 kados      if that makes sense
18:53 kados      for 3.2 we may want to consider a mechanism for selecting one of many optional mandatory frameworks
18:52 ryan       yeah, what he said
18:52 ryan       nstaller/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/optional
18:52 kados       installer/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/optional/
18:52 kados      thd: if they compliment rather than supercede the existing marc21 authorities frameworks, they belong in:
18:51 thd        kados: yes
18:51 kados      thd: these are optional marc21 authorities frameworks?
18:50 thd        ryan: maybe tonight but where would I put them?
18:50 ryan       thd: do you see any reason not to include them in 3.0 ?
18:50 ryan       thd: if they  are up to date, would be great if you could commit them
18:49 thd        ryan: I think they may never have been put in git because kados never chose a place for them
18:49 thd        ryan: I have been updating frameworks to the latest MARC update and want to know what to do about the subsets of the authorities frameworks which I made for you
18:48 thd        hello ryan
18:48 ryan       hi thd
18:47 thd        ryan ?
18:47 kados      paul: ?
18:47 thd        gmcharlt: DCMI must have a commitment to solving those issues because they have committed to mapping RDA/MARC in RDF.
18:46 kados      hdl: you still around?
18:44 thd        gmcharlt: Ed Summers LCSH.info is woefully inadequate because of the limitations of SKOS
18:43 thd        gmcharlt: RDF implementations are not quite ready for MARC but we need to make them ready.
18:42 atz        kados: true... i've got code4lib up today and it's throwing off my sense of tab-geography
18:42 thd        s/wc3/w3c/
18:42 kados      atz: wrong channel ? :-)
18:41 atz        rch: added /home/ican/ican_sip_users.sql
18:40 gmcharlt   thd: good idea.  I would personally endorse that.
18:40 thd        gmcharlt: I intend to suggest on the RDA-L list that the co-publishers should look into funding publication in a manner similar to the work of wc3.org .  Compare the market success of library standards to web standards.
18:36 gmcharlt   thd: and loud complaining if we can't republish enough of the RDA spec to set up MARC frameworks (and presumably their RDF equivalents in the future)
18:36 atz        yeah, it must
18:35 thd        atz: the problem is that even with clever use of regular expressions copying changes into every framework variation takes all day.
18:34 atz        (variants as diffs_
18:34 thd        Despair especially much if you cannot afford to subscribe and there is no one time purchase price for a hard copy version
18:34 atz        thd: sounds like OO/inheritance approach to frameworks
18:33 gmcharlt   good - I was not happy that there were proposals to reuse tag numbers
18:32 thd        The RDA MARC working group proposed to reuse 011 which was made obsolete in 1992 and I think the MARBI committee roundly rejected them
18:31 gmcharlt   thd: hehe - shouldn't that be "RDA in use, despair all ye who enter here"?
18:29 thd        soon we will have warning AACR2 in use :)
18:27 thd        gmcharlt: yes, we need an enhancement with better functionality and where framework variants can be mere diffs
18:25 thd        gmcharlt: In addition to obsolete there are widespread non-LC conventions in use at OCLC, etc.
18:25 gmcharlt   e.g., "warning, warning, AACR1 in use"
18:25 gmcharlt   thd: that's good for display, but an enhancement framework structure might actually tie some functionality to those fields
18:24 thd        gmcharlt: I have noted all obsolete fields and subfields which only appear if already populated with the notation [OBSOLETE]
18:22 gmcharlt   thd: ok, but automating the current version is a start, and it would actually be useful to have a mode that indicates that your records have obsolete fields
18:22 thd        the current LC standard maybe OK for creating a new original record but not for interpreting existing records in the world
18:21 thd        there are records at some libraries which still have data in fields which were made obsolete when AACR2 was introduced in 1978
18:19 thd        gmcharlt: the problem is that only has the current LC standard which is vastly under-inclusive for the real world
18:19 kados      definitely
18:18 gmcharlt   also, now that LC's MARC website is providing the MARC21 format defines in something half-way parseable, drawing from that could be automated
18:18 gmcharlt   thd: agreed
18:18 thd        gmcharlt: ultimately we need a more flexible model for the frameworks.  Updating the variants with many changes is not very time efficient.
18:17 kados      *nod*
18:16 gmcharlt   thd, kados: another thing for 3.2 or 3.4, perhaps - frameworks should distinguish between standard, "app profile" a la OCLC's version, local fields, and decisions about which fields to display in a particular format view
18:16 thd        ?
18:16 thd        ... and investigating.  yet, who has that much time at this point.
18:15 thd        kados: that could be solved with two or three days thinking
18:15 kados      yep
18:15 thd        kados: that requires a sophisticated solution
18:14 kados      thd: doesn't work if they've made local changes
18:14 thd        s/table/tables/
18:14 thd        kados: drop the table and repopulate ;)
18:14 kados      s/update/auto-update/
18:14 kados      ie, post-installation
18:13 kados      thd: one concern I have about the current implementation of frameworks is that there is no mechanism to update frameworks on live systems
18:13 thd        ryan should know about the subsets of the authorities framework.  Is he around?
18:12 thd        kados: I know: I am working from the git version and I made a diff
18:12 kados      thd: some patches to bugs in them ...
18:12 kados      thd: there have been changes to both authority and bib frameworks since you last contributed
18:10 kados      hmmm, subsets?
18:10 gmcharlt   ok, then it's a question for ryan or kados: where did the subsets go?
18:10 thd        ryan: are you here>
18:09 thd        gmcharlt: that is the default with the full standard, the others were two progressively smaller subsets.  Neither of them were exceptionally small so that they would not miss anything important.
18:03 ricardo    Time to go home. Take care erveryone!  :)
18:01 gmcharlt   per comments in header of that file, that is a version that you edited for LL
18:00 gmcharlt   thd: installer/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/mandatory/authorities_normal_marc21.sql  , I would think
17:59 thd        I made some custom authorities frameworks for LibLime.  I do not see them in git.  What should I do about updating them for the latest MARC update, that is, where should they go?
17:39 nengard    thd was just wondering what the heck that was ;) I've actually read that before.  Thanks for sending it
17:39 thd        nengard: check your email for a message with the subject line "using open source" in answer to your question
17:21 ricardo    gmcharlt: Thanks Galen!  :)