Time Nick Message 12:27 slef kados: should do. Got a shop and some admin to get out of the way first. 13:52 hdl kados: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ? 14:03 hdl rch: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ? 14:17 hdl going out 15:36 cm hey kados, did you get my email about itemnotes? 08:55 hdl kados Good morning 09:02 slef hi all. paul: is it OK if I resend your koha-infos news mail to koha@katipo? 09:11 slef what's abouti? 09:12 kados hi hdl 09:13 hdl hi 09:13 dewey what's up, hdl 09:13 hdl how are you ? 09:13 slef hdl: comment traduire "abouti" en anglais? 09:13 hdl finalized ? 09:14 slef close enough for me :) 09:14 hdl dewey had a basic translator. But I cannot remember how it worked. 09:14 dewey hdl: what? 09:15 slef dewey: translate abouti 09:15 dewey slef: sorry... 09:15 slef dewey: translate bonjour from french to english 09:15 dewey slef: what? 09:15 slef dewey: help translate 09:15 hdl dewey: translate aboutir into english 09:15 dewey hdl: i'm not following you... 09:15 slef translator isn't in the help listing 09:15 slef I guess the plugin isn't loaded atm 09:16 hdl kados : Do you use zebra 2.0.12 ? 09:16 hdl It doesnot read my koha.xml file. 09:16 hdl :( 09:16 kados hmmm 09:16 kados I think I had to change bib1.att 09:16 kados iirc 09:17 kados there was a line about rank that wasn't allowed anymore 09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [log] zebra_start 2.0.12 /home/koha/Code/savannah/koha-2.3/etc/koha_head.xml 09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <server 09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <serverinfo 09:17 kados what error are you getting? 09:17 kados hmmm 09:17 kados strange 09:18 kados I haven't seen that error before 09:18 kados have you written to the zebralist asking about it? 09:18 hdl neither do I. 09:18 hdl I wrote to support yesterday. 09:18 hdl And tlaked about that without sending logs. 09:19 hdl Is there a channel to talk to them ? 09:19 kados nope 09:19 kados bbiab 09:25 slef hdl: abouti = polished, (context is user interface) perhaps? 09:27 hdl slef: I trust you. abouti has the understatement both handy, user friendly, coherent, complete, nothing else has to be done. 09:31 slef mailbomb mailbomb I'm a mailbomb 09:37 paul kados : let me know when you're back 09:46 slef paul: hope that's OK... 09:46 slef biab 09:56 kados paul: back 09:56 paul did you see & understood my mail on firstname.lastname@example.org 09:56 paul (hello 1st ;-) ) 09:57 kados (hi :-)) 09:57 paul I'm asking french libraries to know their opinion on : 09:58 paul 1- koha 3.0 should be released ASAP, whatever the beauty of the internals & GUY 09:58 paul 2- koha can be delayed for, say around 3 months, but not too much more 09:58 paul 3- Koha 3.0 can be delayed until it's "perfect" 09:59 owen paul, define perfect? How is 'perfect' different from option 1 and 2? 10:00 paul I don't use the word "perfect" in my mail. 10:00 paul I explain what you propose to do : 10:00 kados paul: from my perspective, 3.0 is far from ready for release unfortunately 10:00 kados paul: many many bugs :-) 10:00 paul 1- fix bugs 10:00 paul 2- finish code cleaning 10:00 paul 3- adopt YUI. 10:00 kados right 10:00 paul 1 not being a question => we won't release until it's stable 10:00 kados yep 10:01 paul 2 & 3 being the core of the question in fact... 10:01 kados and 1 is the biggest issue right now IMO 10:01 kados paul: but unless you have resources to finish 1 we will have quite a hard time trying to finish it soon 10:02 paul I know. I can devote some time for bugfixing. not that much, but a real amount. 10:03 kados hmmm 10:04 kados paul: have you gotten responses to your question? 10:04 paul which one ? 10:04 dewey which one is that? :-) 10:05 paul (question) 10:05 paul use of <p> ? 10:05 kados the question to koha-infos about preferences 10:05 js i vote 3 10:05 kados ie, which state the code should be in to be released 10:05 paul not yet. Only 2 answers, my mail is just 3 hours old... 10:05 kados js++ 10:05 kados ok 10:05 js hi all 10:06 paul about the use of <p> : the thread was quite long on usenet. 10:06 kados hehe 10:06 kados differing opinions? 10:06 paul it seems it's really a flamewar subject... 10:06 kados did anyone agree with me ? :-) 10:06 paul basically : 10:06 kados hehe 10:06 paul - HTML is NOT semantic, don't spend too much time on trying to do it 10:07 kados ahh, but we use XHTML ;-) 10:07 paul - why would <div><p>...</p></div> be less valid than <div><div>...</div></div> 10:07 paul - validator.w3c accept that without any problem 10:08 paul (although I agree w3c don't have a semantic approach) 10:08 kados you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p> ... 10:08 paul at the end, nobody saying you're right. nobody saying you're wrong. 10:08 kados so if someone writes <p></p> and later I want to put something else inside that <p> 10:08 paul someone even saying : do what you want and don't care of your partner ;-) 10:08 kados I have to replace it with <div> 10:08 kados hehe 10:09 kados so I always prefer to start with <div> so it never needs to be re-written 10:09 paul why would you need nested <p> ? 10:09 paul (if you have a sample) 10:09 kados sure 10:09 kados so for YUI, it's necessary to break up the page into sections 10:10 kados 'logical' sections 10:10 kados <div id="doc"> 10:10 kados 10 <div id="hd"><!-- header --></div> 10:10 kados 11 <div id="bd"><!-- body --></div> 10:10 kados 12 <div id="ft"><!-- footer --></div> 10:10 kados 13 </div> 10:10 kados inside of header there are different types of content 10:11 paul so i've strictly nothing against <div id="hd"> 10:11 kados and inside of the body, you want to be able to specify how many logical sections there are in the page 10:11 paul in fact, prog templates are somewhat like that atm 10:11 kados so inside 'hd' you have: 10:11 kados <div id="bd"> 10:11 kados 3 <div id="yui-main"> 10:11 kados 4 <div class="yui-b"></div> 10:11 kados 5 </div> 10:11 kados 6 <div class="yui-b"></div> 10:11 kados </div> 10:12 kados oops, I meant inside of 'bd' :-) 10:12 kados this means that there are two logical 'blocks' in the body 10:13 paul for me, a <p> is the lowest logical block. 10:13 paul so, div in your samples are what I would write. 10:13 paul (and what is in npl/prog, -mistakes excepted-) 10:16 owen I agree with kados, for the most part. <p> should really be reserved for blocks of text. 10:16 paul hi owen. 10:16 paul we agree on this. 10:16 paul but the question is : 10:16 paul <p>surname : Paul</p> 10:16 paul is that or not a "block of text". 10:16 kados that's a definition list :-) 10:17 owen It depends on how you're presenting the information 10:17 kados owen++ :-) 10:17 paul that was proposed by someone on usenet too, and has be violently smashed by someone ! 10:17 paul (although it seems to be someone smashing easily) 10:18 kados paul: what was their smashing argument? 10:18 kados was it a good one? :-) 10:18 owen A lot of people feel strongly and strictly about <dl> too. 10:18 paul no arg. Just "it's silly". the king of definitive arg that I really like ;-) 10:18 kados hehe 10:19 paul again : i'm not geek enough at html to argue. I want to understand. If <dl> is agrred, i've no problem with it. 10:20 kados <dl><dt>Surname:</dt><dd>Paul</dd></dl> 10:20 kados that gives you a lot of flexibility in how to present that data 10:21 kados <p>Surname: Paul</p> doesn't give you much 10:21 paul that's why I used <label> 10:21 paul (and now I understand it was wrong) 10:21 kados so IMO if we need the flexibility, lets do it semantically 10:22 paul you're descriptive & persuasive today ;-) 10:22 kados becayse maybe you only need <p><label>Surname</label> Paul</p> 10:22 paul about answers to my mail : I've got the SANOP one by phone (I spoke of it almost 1 hour with Jerome Pouchol) 10:22 kados but what if I need to make Paul something special :-) 10:22 kados I need the <dd> part most likely 10:23 paul i'll write a mail about our conversation later. But he's unhappy with that, although not upset (correct words. not 100% sure)? 10:24 kados paul: he's unhappy about what? 10:24 paul it's main question was "how do we take such decisions in Koha community" 10:24 kados right 10:24 kados it's a reasonable question 10:24 paul sure. 10:25 kados LibLibe? :-) 10:25 kados hehe 10:25 kados that's a new one 10:25 slef paul: we take decisions by trying to build a consensus, but if it's irreconcilable, he who does wins 10:25 slef kados: ytpo ticy? 10:25 kados hehe 10:27 slef kados: sorry about that. Sometimes names are harder to copy - I usually copy-paste them, but I guess I thought LibLime was simple enough to retype 10:27 slef should be s/manage/manager/ too damnit 10:27 paul kados: ??? 10:27 paul (LibLibe ?) 10:28 slef paul: I've forwarded your email to koha@katipo with added ytpos 10:28 slef apparently 10:29 paul ok, understood 10:30 kados as a community we need to decide how to move forward with decision making 10:30 kados because what we've been doing for the past 7 years isn't working efficiently 10:31 slef here it comes, Koha Social Contract 10:31 owen ?? 10:31 kados for example, memberentry changes made by san-op upset the US libraries I've mentioned them to 10:32 slef Who's kaitiki(sp?) now? Rach? 10:32 kados in theory it's still rach 10:32 kados but she hasn't really done anything in years 10:32 kados :-) 10:33 paul right. 10:33 paul and here, we are back to our problem of being a very small community... 10:34 kados so here is my answer to san-op 10:34 kados they can't have everything they want: 10:34 kados 1. a super cheap ILS 10:34 kados 2. a well organized community 10:36 kados if they want #1 they must invest some money :-) 10:36 kados people need to eat 10:38 paul that's also why kohala (french association) is being founded 10:38 paul to move to 2 by having some funding to support the community 10:38 paul (1 paper was missing, it has delayed the official agreement from gov) 10:39 kados hehe 10:39 paul even if the agreement don't mean money. It just mean kohala can ask for money ;-) 10:40 owen Paul, if your libraries in France are impatient for 3.0 and don't mind a few bugs, why don't you install a pre-release version for them? 10:40 paul because I'm really against having 2 branches "dev_paul" & "head" as we have "dev_week" and "rel_2_2" 10:41 paul (+ I'm not sure i've enough strengths to support it) 10:41 kados what do you mean (not enougg strength) 10:41 paul frenchism, right... 10:41 paul s/strengths/ressources/ 10:42 kados what do you mean by that? 10:42 kados you don't have resources to support Koha 3.0? 10:42 paul - support 2.2 10:42 paul - support dev_paul 10:42 paul - prepare official 3.0 10:42 paul no, I definetly don't have enough ressources... 10:42 paul + i'm against it from a community pov 10:43 kados IMO if your customers are banging down the door for you to release 3.0 they should be willing to pay you to work out the remaining bugs :-) 10:43 owen paul, my question wasn't about an additional official release, just an install from the latest CVS 10:43 kados it's not fair to you to be expected to release something while worrying about where to get your next meal for a (growing!) family :-) 10:43 paul owen : moving prog to YUI means a lot of changes on templates. I think they won't appreciate having 2 differents GUI parts 10:44 paul kados: ++ for saying "ok for 3.0 now, but give me money ;-)" 10:44 owen Maybe so. In that case I guess they'll have to wait. 10:44 kados some projects hold the release to ransom 10:45 kados ie, we can do X, Y, Z, but only if you fork over $ABC 10:45 paul hehe... I don't think i'm fine with ransom 10:46 slef has YUI been summarised to koha-devel or a blog? I think Paul's news was the first I saw of it. 10:46 slef (bah, got to recompile gimp - so I can talk for a bit :-/ ) 10:47 paul slef : it's something kados spoke yesterday on irc... 10:51 paul - I ain't payin', so I ain't expectin' much. 10:51 kados bbiab 10:51 paul - It wouldn't be right to demand more of you all. 10:51 owen Yes, but other customers /are/ paying! :) 10:52 paul they are paying for 2.2 install and 2.2 support 10:52 paul (at least for me/hdl) 10:52 slef owen: I want more of that sort! 10:53 owen slef, don't you have the UK market cornered? :) 10:54 slef owen: not completely and it's damned conservative 10:54 hdl but french ppl pov is : 10:55 hdl I dont awanna pay much 10:55 hdl But sitill want to have NEC+++. 10:55 hdl :DDD 10:55 slef owen: apparently talis is built on the ashes of a cooperative, so our offer of community and cooperation isn't as attractive as it could be to the big libraries. 10:56 slef owen: smaller libraries moving over mostly don't have much money AFAICT; larger libraries moving over have enough IT staff or understanding to try DIY. 10:57 slef owen: and then there has been one library looking at moving across that I turned away because they're into genetics but won't tell me what they do; but enough of my problems here... 10:58 owen We wouldn't want Koha used for ~~eeevil~~~!!! 10:59 slef I don't mind whether it is or not, but I won't work for evil people. I'll go back to warehouse work or fruit-picking before that. 11:00 slef I find the whole gene-patenting idea a bit evil because I'm chronically ill. 11:00 slef anyyyyyyway 11:00 slef hdl++ 11:01 slef some will pay for install, I'm not sure they're paying enough (slight loss-leader to break into the market) and few will pay for development 11:01 slef is that the same for liblime? 11:06 cm morning all... kados, did you see the email i sent you this morning? any thoughts?