Time Nick Message
11:32 kados yep
11:31 paul (just to avoid doing things a 3rd time...)
11:31 paul and if I'm right, let's modify templates...
11:31 paul yep. then, i'll summarize what I've understood on koha-devel.
11:30 kados paul: that OK with you?
11:30 kados since datatable has some bugs
11:30 kados and I'll stick to just grids and button for now
11:30 kados ok, so I'll commit my yui stuff, after I clean it a bit
11:18 rch Sure, and on the opac side, all the yui stuff will be enhancements, so not a problem if they don't quite work right on older browsers.
11:18 kados brbr
11:17 kados paul: *nod*
11:17 paul so that's not a problem imho
11:17 paul rch / kados : on admin interface, we can say "firefox X.X or IE Y.Y needed"
11:16 kados esp with IE
11:16 kados but our current templates don't degrade well to be hontest :-)
11:16 kados we should definitely test the older browsers
11:16 kados yea
11:16 rch for 'full support'...
11:15 kados but honestly datatable's got some bugs
11:15 rch yui docs say firefox 1.5+ and ie6+
11:15 kados cuz that's done entirely in js
11:15 kados right
11:15 rch just not resortable ?
11:14 kados and they are usable
11:14 kados for sanity
11:14 kados I've tested all my designs with lynx
11:14 kados rch: and grids do degrade well if your page layout is sane
11:14 kados rch: datatable is what gives us the table sorting
11:13 rch kados: I imagine grids are not supported in older browsers. Do we lose sorting functionality if these become default templates?
11:13 paul class="linkbuttons first-child" should work
11:13 kados don't think the double span is even necessary come to think of it
11:11 kados <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span>
11:11 kados to make a nice button all I need is:
11:11 kados and I really like YUI buttons too
11:10 kados paul: in YUI grids is the layout module
11:10 kados it's the perfect solution to layout IMO
11:10 paul Grids ?
11:10 kados well I'm addicted to Grids
11:09 kados kados.org/stuff/moremember.png
11:09 kados right
11:09 paul (for admin I mean)
11:09 paul ALL french users uses released templates.
11:09 Lea *by internet, I mean the admin stuff
11:09 paul or something else
11:09 Lea The reality is, most people will probably use the intranet interface as is and never change it. The opac on the other hand is the opposite.
11:09 paul only a clear & standard GUI
11:08 paul kados : what are the advantages ?
11:06 kados I think the advantages that yui give us outweigh the minor problems with having it as the core template system
11:05 owen Then I think we're at a point were the Release Manager gets to decide what goes into the templates
11:03 paul that we don't have.
11:02 paul owen : I think that's a good idea ... with enough developpers & template designers
11:02 owen I hoped that developers wouldn't have to use design principles when laying out their HTML.
11:01 paul I repeat what I said yesterday : give/write clear method to write templates, and i will obey.
11:00 kados :-)
11:00 paul you beat me ;-)
11:00 paul and I still think (since more than 1 year...) that even developpers can write correct HTML if they have correct directions.
11:00 kados paul: but if we share a set of templates, we need to agree to a set of guidelines
10:59 paul kados : the concept of prog template never enthusiamed me. so, i have no problem abandonning them...
10:59 kados 1. developers don't use design principles when laying out their html (they are programmers so that's ok)
10:59 kados the problem is no prog templates
10:58 kados 2. we have to do twice the work to maintain
10:58 kados 1. they are not really prog templates :-)
10:58 kados the prob with prog templates
10:57 kados on both accounts
10:57 kados yea
10:57 kados owen: *nod*
10:57 owen But maybe the concept of the prog templates has never really worked
10:57 kados the bottom line is that <p><p></p></p> is illegal whereas <div><div></div></div> isn't
10:57 owen I guess if we're really going to be strict with the concept of the prog templates, we'd have to say no to the YUI stuff
10:57 kados I'm sorry to hear that
10:56 paul kados : the guys that answered on usenet forum are as septical as me about <p> removal.
10:56 kados hi paul
10:55 paul hello guys
10:54 kados for buttons/links
10:54 kados that's a bit less pretty
10:54 kados but there's also some javascript and css
10:52 kados it's just things like <div class="yui-b">
10:52 owen That's just layout stuff, right?
10:51 kados owen: which are yui specific
10:51 Lea AFAICT, you can intermix JS libraries, so you could use jquery+yui no problem. I *think*.
10:51 kados owen: one thing that has to be included for grids (of course) is the correct class names
10:50 Lea I've not looked at YUI yet but it looks neat
10:50 Lea i can help with ajax stuff if you like, although I'm no expert
10:50 Lea i wrote a really cool little webapp yesterday in 1 hour that allows you to enter a youtube URL, it'll dl the video locally and generate code that you can insert in moodle to view the video. Jquery is slick
10:49 owen Lea, any thoughts about how it compares to YUI?
10:49 kados Lea: yea, I plan to look more closely at the ajax stuff shortly
10:49 Lea btw guys, jquery is VERY good
10:49 kados IKWYM
10:49 kados yea
10:48 owen I'd hate to see your markup-cleaning only make it into a separate template
10:48 kados the other idea we had was to commit my modifs as a 'liblime' template
10:47 owen kados, the screenshot looks great, so it looks like you're on the right track
10:47 kados not counting the memberentry stuff which needs a complete re-write
10:47 kados I'm prob about 80% done with members/
10:46 kados so I've been modifying as I go
10:46 kados well the markup in head is pretty awful ;-)
10:46 owen You're finding cases where the markup needs to be altered to suit?
10:45 owen kados, part of me wants to say that yui stuff should be presentation layer, since theoretically it should all be progressive enhancement
10:45 kados datatable is really slick, but definitely still a beta :/
10:44 kados ahh, yea I had seen that
10:44 owen I'm aware of it, but haven't really looked at it yet
10:44 kados no, I hadnt
10:43 Lea you seen yui-ext?
10:43 Lea heh
10:43 kados meaning, I've implemented some stuff, but it's on my local machine so I can't show it off :-)
10:43 Lea i use jquery mainly but I was made aware of yui + yui-ext from a recent merger/collab
10:42 kados http://kados.org/stuff/yui_borrowers.png
10:42 owen You use it Lea? I'm just getting to know it
10:42 Lea ooh lets see :D
10:42 kados all I have atm are some screenshots
10:42 Lea yui rocks
10:41 owen Do you have an example? Is it the button thing?
10:40 kados yea
10:40 owen That's a tough one.
10:40 kados owen: any thoughts?
10:40 kados but I'm not sure if everyone's OK with prog having some double spans and other stuff from yui
10:39 dewey bonjour, kados
10:39 kados howdy
10:39 kados hey owen
10:38 owen 'morning kados
10:37 kados slef: is this the week you have some bandwidth to devote to the installer?
10:36 kados slef: and working :-)
10:36 kados slef: got git installed
10:36 kados hey slef
10:30 hdl slef hi
10:25 slef bbi60+
10:25 slef biab
10:11 slef kados: are you in yet?
10:11 dewey niihau, slef
10:11 slef hello
09:42 Lea hdl: thanks
09:34 dewey hello, hdl
09:34 hdl kados : hi
09:14 hdl Lea: timeout parameter.
09:14 hdl Lea: see in System preferences.
07:20 Lea i think her authenticated session times out
07:20 Lea it's when she's adding a book to the system
07:19 Lea was afk
07:19 Lea sorry chris
06:42 chris if so thats a setting in system preferences
06:42 chris ie makes them reauthenticate too soon?
06:42 chris times out in what way ... the authentication?
06:41 chris more info needed :)
06:25 Lea My librarian is complaining that koha times out too quickly. Is that a koha setting or apache? Thanks.
06:24 Lea hi!
04:21 hdl kados still awake ?
04:17 hdl rch : running Mandriva.
19:43 mason no problem!
19:43 qiqo ill be writing a guide on suse
19:42 qiqo thanks really
19:42 mason come back soon and ill help you with the problem
19:42 mason ok :(
19:42 qiqo thank you and godbless
19:42 qiqo i have to go to school
19:42 qiqo ei mason,, thank you very much
19:35 qiqo ok
19:35 mason qiqo, just settings up barcodes here...
19:35 mason bah, my responsibility to inform you josh
19:35 qiqo hehe
19:35 qiqo just to teach people about MARC
19:34 qiqo i installed koha in our computer laboratory
19:34 kados mason: thanks!
19:34 kados mason: updating and informing client now
19:34 kados mason: wow, I missed that fix
19:32 qiqo lol
19:32 qiqo but openbiblio guys release ob once a year!
19:32 mason kados, this twas the fix -> http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/koha/C4/Labels.pm?cvsroot=koha&only_with_tag=dev_week&r1=1.3.4.5&r2=1.3.4.6
19:32 qiqo they are using openbiblio
19:31 kados not sure the client was able to get it working
19:31 qiqo is openbiblio active? because i suggested to the head librarian of a public library here to shift to koha
19:31 mason yep, that was it
19:31 kados I think it's something to do with the checksum
19:31 mason i thought the *12345678* bug was the problem , that was fixed?
19:30 kados I think so
19:30 mason really?
19:30 kados mason: we have a client that still has problems with the code39 production
19:29 mason ok, lemme check on our dev box for something....
19:28 qiqo just the barcode
19:28 qiqo i could see the call number
19:28 qiqo but
19:28 qiqo yeah it works
19:28 mason ok, now try them with your barcode scanner to make sure they are correct :)
19:27 mason woo
19:26 qiqo i was using upc a whle ago
19:26 qiqo cool
19:26 qiqo ooh code 39 works
19:26 qiqo the label-barcode doesnt
19:26 qiqo the barcodesgenerator work
19:25 mason do any of the other barcode types work ok?
19:25 qiqo :(
19:25 qiqo yeah
19:25 mason you arnt getting any barcodes at all ? :(
19:25 mason but i think you have a different problem that that
19:24 qiqo ahh ok
19:24 mason like this, *123456789*
19:24 mason the bug was that code39 barcodes need to be wrapped in '*' s,
19:23 qiqo ok ill check on that'
19:22 mason and put the file in the /usr/local/koha/internet/modules/C4 dir
19:21 mason try this -> http://cvs.savannah.nongnu.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/koha/C4/Labels.pm?root=koha
19:21 qiqo usually when i generate labels.. all i see on the pdf is the word "BOOK" no barcodes whatsoever
19:21 qiqo okie thanks
19:20 mason ill get a url for you
19:20 mason so u might need to grab a newwer version of Labels.pm from savannah's cvs
19:19 mason aaaah, here it is...
19:19 qiqo ok
19:18 mason gimme a tick to find it again
19:18 qiqo ok
19:18 qiqo uhh
19:17 mason there was a bug with the code39 barcodes that i fixed
19:17 qiqo at the mailing list?
19:17 qiqo ahh really?
19:17 qiqo i just want a straight forward barcode
19:17 mason i wrote some of the barcode stuff a while ago
19:17 qiqo hi mason
19:17 mason heya qiqo
19:13 qiqo i just want to create a code39 barcode
19:12 qiqo btw my problem now is with the barcode
19:03 qiqo yeah,,
19:03 chris good idea, write it up on the wiki, there might be a start of somethgin there
19:02 chris cool
19:02 qiqo i guess i may have to create a how to install on suse then
19:02 qiqo hehehe
19:02 qiqo cool!!!!
19:02 qiqo ei its loading
19:01 chris you might have to edit the conf
19:01 chris but im not sure how you do it in suse
19:01 chris and restarting apache
19:01 chris with debian it involves just symlinking the env.load file from mods-available to mods-enabled
19:00 qiqo ok ill try it again
18:58 chris that line needs to be executed at some point :)
18:58 qiqo yeah
18:58 chris LoadModule env_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_env.so
18:58 chris basically
18:58 qiqo i think im figuring it out
18:57 chris anything in sysconfig.d ?
18:57 chris hmmm suse sets it up quite different then
18:56 qiqo conf.d, extra, ssl.crt, ssl.crl,ssl.key, ssl.rpm, sysconfig.d vhosts.d
18:56 qiqo the folders are:
18:55 chris whats in there?
18:55 qiqo i have /etc/apache2 directory
18:55 chris - not _ sorry
18:55 chris or no mods-enabled dir?
18:55 chris so you have no /etc/apache2 ?
18:54 qiqo nothing
18:53 chris is there a mods_available and mods_enabled dir?
18:53 dewey Hmm. No matches for that, chris.
18:53 chris is if you look in /etc/apache2/
18:53 chris ok what you want to do
18:52 qiqo apache 2
18:52 chris apache 1.3 or apache 2?
18:52 chris and that apache is loading it
18:52 chris right you will need to make sure that module is installed
18:50 qiqo however my problem is my apache installation does not recognize SetEnv directive
18:50 qiqo you must set folder permission on koha-httpd.conf
18:50 qiqo well i found the solution on why the page doesnt load
18:49 qiqo ermm ive installed koha on a suse 10.2
18:49 qiqo no not really
18:48 dewey i guess the problem is that it's usually very hard to understand !
18:48 chris whats the problem?
18:47 qiqo ive a problem with koha
18:46 qiqo hi dewey
18:46 dewey bonjour, qiqo
18:46 qiqo hello
18:45 qiqo anyone up?
18:45 qiqo hi
17:43 rch etch?
17:42 rch hdl: are you running on Debian Linux?
17:27 hdl yes. I have to.
17:26 rch were you going to add the redirects to prevent opac/intranet access prior to successful install?
17:25 rch was talking with kados re: installer
17:24 rch hi hdl
17:20 hdl rch around ?
15:35 cm kados, are you back?
15:15 rch hdl: still around?
13:54 kyle is there a bug report for this issue already in there?
13:54 kados be back a bit later
13:54 kados ok, I've gotta run
13:53 kados as it won't get lost
13:53 kados probably the bug would be best
13:53 kados with a explanation of how to patch it
13:53 kados or file a bug on bugzilla
13:53 kados otherwise, if you feel it's important enough you can send a mail to koha-devel
13:52 kados they all get an email on that
13:52 kados in your commit message you could alert them
13:52 kyle How do I alert the other template maintainers of the fix?
13:51 kyle I still cannot get the number of renewals to show up, but that's not a big deal.
13:51 kados kyle++
13:51 kyle Well, I fixed the error in my work, I'll commit it now.
13:41 kyle at the bottom of moremember.pl is $template->param($data)
13:40 kyle indeed.
13:40 kados if the others show up, you'd expect that to as well
13:40 kados that's weird
13:40 kyle kados: None of the other borissues stuff appears to be explictly pushed out.
13:38 kados kyle: have you traced the other borrissues stuff to see if it's explicitly pushed out?
13:35 kyle if you have an updated copy of dev_week from cvs, my fix is in there. But it's not fully working. For some reason, even if there are multiple failed renewals, it only says there is one failed renewal. The code that the bug must be in is at the top of moremember.pl
13:35 kados hmmm
13:33 kyle Do I have to explicitly push that on the template params somewhere?
13:33 kyle It's being pull using Search.pm::borissues which is pulling everything from issues, but the tmpl_var tag is still coming up empty.
13:32 paul (I'm only still afraid by the time we will need. and hope you don't forget my concern on this matter)
13:32 kados paul: it's not major unless you try to design nice looking templates ;-)
13:32 paul yes. although they seems not that major to me. but i'll follow you here, as i'm really a rookie.
13:32 kyle I wanted to add a column for the number of renewals for each item, so I tried <!-- TMPL_VAR name="renewals" --> but it comes up blank.
13:31 kados or feature enhancement IIRC
13:31 kados kyle++ that's been a bug for a while
13:31 kados (or one at least?)
13:31 kyle I'm adding a warning for failed renewals from moremember.pl
13:31 kados paul: so now do you see the benefits? :-)
13:31 kados kyle: sure
13:31 paul yep
13:31 kados paul: does that make sense?
13:31 kyle I've a question...
13:31 paul hello kyle
13:30 kados hey kyle
13:30 kyle hey paul, kados
13:30 kados so <div> gives you 'nesting'
13:30 kados but you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p>
13:30 kados you can have <div><div><div></div></div></div>
13:29 kados ok, simple practical benefit
13:29 paul I understand, even if I don't see the benefits...
13:29 kados I didn't realize that it wasn't understood :-)
13:28 kados I will try to add to our coding guidelines info on 'semantic' markup
13:28 paul but you'll have to tell exactly how/what to do
13:28 paul if you clearly define what we need, I candidate to help updating templates.
13:27 paul ok, I agree with "as few as possible" ;-)
13:27 kados hopefully we only need 5-6 types
13:27 paul that's something like 3 or 30 ?
13:27 kados but as few as possible
13:27 kados I haven't counted in fact ;-)
13:27 paul could you say how many "type" would be needed ?
13:26 kados hehe
13:26 kados just use a <p> if you have a paragraph
13:26 paul was a joke ;-)
13:26 kados why would you need that?
13:26 kados ?
13:26 paul and div class="p" ?
13:26 kados div class=type2
13:26 kados div class=type1
13:26 paul so, how to differentiate the different kinds of <div> ?
13:25 kados hardly any <p>
13:25 kados yep
13:25 paul (that means almost no p then...)
13:25 kados otherwise, it should be <div> and <span>
13:25 kados help files, etc
13:25 paul (that means no p then...)
13:25 kados I think we should have <p> in Koha when there is long blocks of text
13:24 paul you're saying we should have no <p> in Koha ?
13:24 kados and 'inline divisions' <span>
13:24 kados there are instead 'logical divisions' <divs>
13:24 kados so unless it's text, there are no paragraphs
13:24 kados this is an application
13:24 kados but we don't have paragraphs :-)
13:24 paul yes, and in a paragraph, you can just have inlines. otherwise, you have 2 paragraphs in fact.
13:23 kados <span> is an inline
13:23 kados <div> is a block level
13:23 kados they are different
13:23 kados nope
13:23 paul <p><span></span></p> is better
13:23 kados and you can always have <div><div></div></div>
13:22 paul I agree.
13:22 kados IMO, you can have <div><p></p></div> but not <p><div></div></p>
13:21 kados paul: when do you use div?
13:21 kados <h*> means 'heading'
13:21 kados <p> means paragraph
13:20 kados other divisions have specific semantic meaning
13:20 kados they indicate 'generic' divisions
13:20 kados div and span are related
13:19 paul maybe in french i'll understand...
13:19 paul i'll ask a usenet french forum
13:18 paul no, sorry...
13:18 kados make sense?
13:18 kados <div> signals that this is not a document
13:18 kados if you see <p> you will assume you are in 'document' mode
13:18 kados so pretend you are a screen reader
13:17 kados help file, etc.
13:17 kados or in a block of text that's equivilent
13:17 kados in a document
13:17 paul (a sample)
13:17 paul when do you use <p> then ?
13:16 kados which is used for generic division
13:16 kados you should use <div>
13:16 kados yes, but it's not a 'paragraph'
13:16 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p>
13:16 paul and
13:16 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p>
13:16 paul mmm... there is a semantic diff between
13:15 kados presentation logic should ideally be separate from semantic markup
13:15 kados semantic markup is used to specify semantic relationships between elements on the page
13:14 kados ok, I will try to explain
13:14 paul I don't understand
13:14 kados The organization of information into paragraphs is not affected by how the paragraphs are presented
13:13 kados paul: not according to w3.org
13:13 paul that's paragraphs imho
13:13 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p>
13:12 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p>
13:12 paul when I have :
13:12 kados it is used to describe the semantic relationship of one block to another
13:12 kados <p> should never be used to determine presentation
13:11 kados nope, what you are talking about is 'presentation'
13:11 paul in a form, but a p
13:11 kados it is related to a document division
13:11 paul but it is a paragraph according to me.
13:11 kados because <p> semantically means 'paragraph'
13:11 paul I don't understand why in fact.
13:11 kados <p><input></p> simply isn't semantic
13:10 paul you did it ?
13:10 kados ask in freenode.net #html ;-)
13:10 kados otherwise, someone else who wants to present it differently can't easily do it
13:10 paul mmm... i can't believe you're right.
13:10 kados semantics shouldn't be comprimized for presentation IMO
13:09 kados one to have a large text area
13:09 kados one class to put on one line
13:09 kados use classes
13:09 paul mmm... and if you want to have 2 input on & line, then a large textarea just below ?
13:08 kados input { display: block; }
13:08 paul how do you handle that in css ?
13:08 kados sorry :-)
13:08 kados not with div
13:08 kados that's handled in css
13:08 paul I can't believe you're right
13:08 kados no, I answered to quickly :-)
13:08 paul wow !
13:08 kados wait
13:08 kados <div>
13:08 paul how do you put 2 input on 2 lines then ?
13:08 kados <p> should only be used when dealing with actual paragraphs
13:07 kados it's not semantic
13:07 paul I thought <p> was mandatory even in this case
13:07 paul why ? it's not html valid ?
13:07 kados paragraphs shouldn't be used for inputting IMO
12:34 owen I wish I had the definitive answer for how to mark up forms and data. I just think it's odd that we say use <dl> when outputting, but use labels and paragraphs and whatnot when inputting the data
12:32 paul owen: who is supposed to answer to your question ? I don't understand what you're speaking of
12:06 kados except for forms
12:05 kados Label : Value
12:05 kados any time we have something that looks like:
12:05 paul member detail for example
12:05 paul I would say "every where".
12:05 owen What other cases are there where we are outputting data like that?
12:04 owen Detailed notes: "A Tom Doherty Associates book."
12:04 kados looks that way to me
12:04 owen ISBN: 031287863X
12:04 owen Is the catalogue detail page a definition list as well?
12:03 kados that's a definition list :-)
12:03 kados Name: Tom Sawyer
12:02 owen Yes, but how do you define a definition list? :)
12:02 kados IMO
12:02 kados for every definition list we should use dl
12:01 kados the semantically correct way to do it is with <dl>
12:01 owen We have so many different types of data, I'm not sure we can really choose one method