Time Nick Message 12:01 owen We have so many different types of data, I'm not sure we can really choose one method 12:01 kados the semantically correct way to do it is with <dl> 12:02 kados for every definition list we should use dl 12:02 kados IMO 12:02 owen Yes, but how do you define a definition list? :) 12:03 kados Name: Tom Sawyer 12:03 kados that's a definition list :-) 12:04 owen Is the catalogue detail page a definition list as well? 12:04 owen ISBN: 031287863X 12:04 kados looks that way to me 12:04 owen Detailed notes: "A Tom Doherty Associates book." 12:05 owen What other cases are there where we are outputting data like that? 12:05 paul I would say "every where". 12:05 paul member detail for example 12:05 kados any time we have something that looks like: 12:05 kados Label : Value 12:06 kados except for forms 12:32 paul owen: who is supposed to answer to your question ? I don't understand what you're speaking of 12:34 owen I wish I had the definitive answer for how to mark up forms and data. I just think it's odd that we say use <dl> when outputting, but use labels and paragraphs and whatnot when inputting the data 13:07 kados paragraphs shouldn't be used for inputting IMO 13:07 paul why ? it's not html valid ? 13:07 paul I thought <p> was mandatory even in this case 13:07 kados it's not semantic 13:08 kados <p> should only be used when dealing with actual paragraphs 13:08 paul how do you put 2 input on 2 lines then ? 13:08 kados <div> 13:08 kados wait 13:08 paul wow ! 13:08 kados no, I answered to quickly :-) 13:08 paul I can't believe you're right 13:08 kados that's handled in css 13:08 kados not with div 13:08 kados sorry :-) 13:08 paul how do you handle that in css ? 13:08 kados input { display: block; } 13:09 paul mmm... and if you want to have 2 input on & line, then a large textarea just below ? 13:09 kados use classes 13:09 kados one class to put on one line 13:09 kados one to have a large text area 13:10 kados semantics shouldn't be comprimized for presentation IMO 13:10 paul mmm... i can't believe you're right. 13:10 kados otherwise, someone else who wants to present it differently can't easily do it 13:10 kados ask in freenode.net #html ;-) 13:10 paul you did it ? 13:11 kados <p><input></p> simply isn't semantic 13:11 paul I don't understand why in fact. 13:11 kados because <p> semantically means 'paragraph' 13:11 paul but it is a paragraph according to me. 13:11 kados it is related to a document division 13:11 paul in a form, but a p 13:11 kados nope, what you are talking about is 'presentation' 13:12 kados <p> should never be used to determine presentation 13:12 kados it is used to describe the semantic relationship of one block to another 13:12 paul when I have : 13:12 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p> 13:13 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p> 13:13 paul that's paragraphs imho 13:13 kados paul: not according to w3.org 13:14 kados The organization of information into paragraphs is not affected by how the paragraphs are presented 13:14 paul I don't understand 13:14 kados ok, I will try to explain 13:15 kados semantic markup is used to specify semantic relationships between elements on the page 13:15 kados presentation logic should ideally be separate from semantic markup 13:16 paul mmm... there is a semantic diff between 13:16 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p> 13:16 paul and 13:16 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p> 13:16 kados yes, but it's not a 'paragraph' 13:16 kados you should use <div> 13:16 kados which is used for generic division 13:17 paul when do you use <p> then ? 13:17 paul (a sample) 13:17 kados in a document 13:17 kados or in a block of text that's equivilent 13:17 kados help file, etc. 13:18 kados so pretend you are a screen reader 13:18 kados if you see <p> you will assume you are in 'document' mode 13:18 kados <div> signals that this is not a document 13:18 kados make sense? 13:18 paul no, sorry... 13:19 paul i'll ask a usenet french forum 13:19 paul maybe in french i'll understand... 13:20 kados div and span are related 13:20 kados they indicate 'generic' divisions 13:20 kados other divisions have specific semantic meaning 13:21 kados <p> means paragraph 13:21 kados <h*> means 'heading' 13:21 kados paul: when do you use div? 13:22 kados IMO, you can have <div><p></p></div> but not <p><div></div></p> 13:22 paul I agree. 13:23 kados and you can always have <div><div></div></div> 13:23 paul <p><span></span></p> is better 13:23 kados nope 13:23 kados they are different 13:23 kados <div> is a block level 13:23 kados <span> is an inline 13:24 paul yes, and in a paragraph, you can just have inlines. otherwise, you have 2 paragraphs in fact. 13:24 kados but we don't have paragraphs :-) 13:24 kados this is an application 13:24 kados so unless it's text, there are no paragraphs 13:24 kados there are instead 'logical divisions' <divs> 13:24 kados and 'inline divisions' <span> 13:24 paul you're saying we should have no <p> in Koha ? 13:25 kados I think we should have <p> in Koha when there is long blocks of text 13:25 paul (that means no p then...) 13:25 kados help files, etc 13:25 kados otherwise, it should be <div> and <span> 13:25 paul (that means almost no p then...) 13:25 kados yep 13:25 kados hardly any <p> 13:26 paul so, how to differentiate the different kinds of <div> ? 13:26 kados div class=type1 13:26 kados div class=type2 13:26 paul and div class="p" ? 13:26 kados ? 13:26 kados why would you need that? 13:26 paul was a joke ;-) 13:26 kados just use a <p> if you have a paragraph 13:26 kados hehe 13:27 paul could you say how many "type" would be needed ? 13:27 kados I haven't counted in fact ;-) 13:27 kados but as few as possible 13:27 paul that's something like 3 or 30 ? 13:27 kados hopefully we only need 5-6 types 13:27 paul ok, I agree with "as few as possible" ;-) 13:28 paul if you clearly define what we need, I candidate to help updating templates. 13:28 paul but you'll have to tell exactly how/what to do 13:28 kados I will try to add to our coding guidelines info on 'semantic' markup 13:29 kados I didn't realize that it wasn't understood :-) 13:29 paul I understand, even if I don't see the benefits... 13:29 kados ok, simple practical benefit 13:30 kados you can have <div><div><div></div></div></div> 13:30 kados but you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p> 13:30 kados so <div> gives you 'nesting' 13:30 kyle hey paul, kados 13:30 kados hey kyle 13:31 paul hello kyle 13:31 kyle I've a question... 13:31 kados paul: does that make sense? 13:31 paul yep 13:31 kados kyle: sure 13:31 kados paul: so now do you see the benefits? :-) 13:31 kyle I'm adding a warning for failed renewals from moremember.pl 13:31 kados (or one at least?) 13:31 kados kyle++ that's been a bug for a while 13:31 kados or feature enhancement IIRC 13:32 kyle I wanted to add a column for the number of renewals for each item, so I tried <!-- TMPL_VAR name="renewals" --> but it comes up blank. 13:32 paul yes. although they seems not that major to me. but i'll follow you here, as i'm really a rookie. 13:32 kados paul: it's not major unless you try to design nice looking templates ;-) 13:32 paul (I'm only still afraid by the time we will need. and hope you don't forget my concern on this matter) 13:33 kyle It's being pull using Search.pm::borissues which is pulling everything from issues, but the tmpl_var tag is still coming up empty. 13:33 kyle Do I have to explicitly push that on the template params somewhere? 13:35 kados hmmm 13:35 kyle if you have an updated copy of dev_week from cvs, my fix is in there. But it's not fully working. For some reason, even if there are multiple failed renewals, it only says there is one failed renewal. The code that the bug must be in is at the top of moremember.pl 13:38 kados kyle: have you traced the other borrissues stuff to see if it's explicitly pushed out? 13:40 kyle kados: None of the other borissues stuff appears to be explictly pushed out. 13:40 kados that's weird 13:40 kados if the others show up, you'd expect that to as well 13:40 kyle indeed. 13:41 kyle at the bottom of moremember.pl is $template->param($data) 13:51 kyle Well, I fixed the error in my work, I'll commit it now. 13:51 kados kyle++ 13:51 kyle I still cannot get the number of renewals to show up, but that's not a big deal. 13:52 kyle How do I alert the other template maintainers of the fix? 13:52 kados in your commit message you could alert them 13:52 kados they all get an email on that 13:53 kados otherwise, if you feel it's important enough you can send a mail to koha-devel 13:53 kados or file a bug on bugzilla 13:53 kados with a explanation of how to patch it 13:53 kados probably the bug would be best 13:53 kados as it won't get lost 13:54 kados ok, I've gotta run 13:54 kados be back a bit later 13:54 kyle is there a bug report for this issue already in there? 15:15 rch hdl: still around? 15:35 cm kados, are you back? 17:20 hdl rch around ? 17:24 rch hi hdl 17:25 rch was talking with kados re: installer 17:26 rch were you going to add the redirects to prevent opac/intranet access prior to successful install? 17:27 hdl yes. I have to. 17:42 rch hdl: are you running on Debian Linux? 17:43 rch etch? 18:45 qiqo hi 18:45 qiqo anyone up? 18:46 qiqo hello 18:46 dewey bonjour, qiqo 18:46 qiqo hi dewey 18:47 qiqo ive a problem with koha 18:48 chris whats the problem? 18:48 dewey i guess the problem is that it's usually very hard to understand ! 18:49 qiqo no not really 18:49 qiqo ermm ive installed koha on a suse 10.2 18:50 qiqo well i found the solution on why the page doesnt load 18:50 qiqo you must set folder permission on koha-httpd.conf 18:50 qiqo however my problem is my apache installation does not recognize SetEnv directive 18:52 chris right you will need to make sure that module is installed 18:52 chris and that apache is loading it 18:52 chris apache 1.3 or apache 2? 18:52 qiqo apache 2 18:53 chris ok what you want to do 18:53 chris is if you look in /etc/apache2/ 18:53 dewey Hmm. No matches for that, chris. 18:53 chris is there a mods_available and mods_enabled dir? 18:54 qiqo nothing 18:55 chris so you have no /etc/apache2 ? 18:55 chris or no mods-enabled dir? 18:55 chris - not _ sorry 18:55 qiqo i have /etc/apache2 directory 18:55 chris whats in there? 18:56 qiqo the folders are: 18:56 qiqo conf.d, extra, ssl.crt, ssl.crl,ssl.key, ssl.rpm, sysconfig.d vhosts.d 18:57 chris hmmm suse sets it up quite different then 18:57 chris anything in sysconfig.d ? 18:58 qiqo i think im figuring it out 18:58 chris basically 18:58 chris LoadModule env_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_env.so 18:58 qiqo yeah 18:58 chris that line needs to be executed at some point :) 19:00 qiqo ok ill try it again 19:01 chris with debian it involves just symlinking the env.load file from mods-available to mods-enabled 19:01 chris and restarting apache 19:01 chris but im not sure how you do it in suse 19:01 chris you might have to edit the conf 19:02 qiqo ei its loading 19:02 qiqo cool!!!! 19:02 qiqo hehehe 19:02 qiqo i guess i may have to create a how to install on suse then 19:02 chris cool 19:03 chris good idea, write it up on the wiki, there might be a start of somethgin there 19:03 qiqo yeah,, 19:12 qiqo btw my problem now is with the barcode 19:13 qiqo i just want to create a code39 barcode 19:17 mason heya qiqo 19:17 qiqo hi mason 19:17 mason i wrote some of the barcode stuff a while ago 19:17 qiqo i just want a straight forward barcode 19:17 qiqo ahh really? 19:17 qiqo at the mailing list? 19:17 mason there was a bug with the code39 barcodes that i fixed 19:18 qiqo uhh 19:18 qiqo ok 19:18 mason gimme a tick to find it again 19:19 qiqo ok 19:19 mason aaaah, here it is... 19:20 mason so u might need to grab a newwer version of Labels.pm from savannah's cvs 19:20 mason ill get a url for you 19:21 qiqo okie thanks 19:21 qiqo usually when i generate labels.. all i see on the pdf is the word "BOOK" no barcodes whatsoever 19:21 mason try this -> http://cvs.savannah.nongnu.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/koha/C4/Labels.pm?root=koha 19:22 mason and put the file in the /usr/local/koha/internet/modules/C4 dir 19:23 qiqo ok ill check on that' 19:24 mason the bug was that code39 barcodes need to be wrapped in '*' s, 19:24 mason like this, *123456789* 19:24 qiqo ahh ok 19:25 mason but i think you have a different problem that that 19:25 mason you arnt getting any barcodes at all ? :( 19:25 qiqo yeah 19:25 qiqo :( 19:25 mason do any of the other barcode types work ok? 19:26 qiqo the barcodesgenerator work 19:26 qiqo the label-barcode doesnt 19:26 qiqo ooh code 39 works 19:26 qiqo cool 19:26 qiqo i was using upc a whle ago 19:27 mason woo 19:28 mason ok, now try them with your barcode scanner to make sure they are correct :) 19:28 qiqo yeah it works 19:28 qiqo but 19:28 qiqo i could see the call number 19:28 qiqo just the barcode 19:29 mason ok, lemme check on our dev box for something.... 19:30 kados mason: we have a client that still has problems with the code39 production 19:30 mason really? 19:30 kados I think so 19:31 mason i thought the *12345678* bug was the problem , that was fixed? 19:31 kados I think it's something to do with the checksum 19:31 mason yep, that was it 19:31 qiqo is openbiblio active? because i suggested to the head librarian of a public library here to shift to koha 19:31 kados not sure the client was able to get it working 19:32 qiqo they are using openbiblio 19:32 mason kados, this twas the fix -> http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/koha/C4/Labels.pm?cvsroot=koha&only_with_tag=dev_week&r1=1.3.4.5&r2=1.3.4.6 19:32 qiqo but openbiblio guys release ob once a year! 19:32 qiqo lol 19:34 kados mason: wow, I missed that fix 19:34 kados mason: updating and informing client now 19:34 kados mason: thanks! 19:34 qiqo i installed koha in our computer laboratory 19:35 qiqo just to teach people about MARC 19:35 qiqo hehe 19:35 mason bah, my responsibility to inform you josh 19:35 mason qiqo, just settings up barcodes here... 19:35 qiqo ok 19:42 qiqo ei mason,, thank you very much 19:42 qiqo i have to go to school 19:42 qiqo thank you and godbless 19:42 mason ok :( 19:42 mason come back soon and ill help you with the problem 19:42 qiqo thanks really 19:43 qiqo ill be writing a guide on suse 19:43 mason no problem! 04:17 hdl rch : running Mandriva. 04:21 hdl kados still awake ? 06:24 Lea hi! 06:25 Lea My librarian is complaining that koha times out too quickly. Is that a koha setting or apache? Thanks. 06:41 chris more info needed :) 06:42 chris times out in what way ... the authentication? 06:42 chris ie makes them reauthenticate too soon? 06:42 chris if so thats a setting in system preferences 07:19 Lea sorry chris 07:19 Lea was afk 07:20 Lea it's when she's adding a book to the system 07:20 Lea i think her authenticated session times out 09:14 hdl Lea: see in System preferences. 09:14 hdl Lea: timeout parameter. 09:34 hdl kados : hi 09:34 dewey hello, hdl 09:42 Lea hdl: thanks 10:11 slef hello 10:11 dewey niihau, slef 10:11 slef kados: are you in yet? 10:25 slef biab 10:25 slef bbi60+ 10:30 hdl slef hi 10:36 kados hey slef 10:36 kados slef: got git installed 10:36 kados slef: and working :-) 10:37 kados slef: is this the week you have some bandwidth to devote to the installer? 10:38 owen 'morning kados 10:39 kados hey owen 10:39 kados howdy 10:39 dewey bonjour, kados 10:40 kados but I'm not sure if everyone's OK with prog having some double spans and other stuff from yui 10:40 kados owen: any thoughts? 10:40 owen That's a tough one. 10:40 kados yea 10:41 owen Do you have an example? Is it the button thing? 10:42 Lea yui rocks 10:42 kados all I have atm are some screenshots 10:42 Lea ooh lets see :D 10:42 owen You use it Lea? I'm just getting to know it 10:42 kados http://kados.org/stuff/yui_borrowers.png 10:43 Lea i use jquery mainly but I was made aware of yui + yui-ext from a recent merger/collab 10:43 kados meaning, I've implemented some stuff, but it's on my local machine so I can't show it off :-) 10:43 Lea heh 10:43 Lea you seen yui-ext? 10:44 kados no, I hadnt 10:44 owen I'm aware of it, but haven't really looked at it yet 10:44 kados ahh, yea I had seen that 10:45 kados datatable is really slick, but definitely still a beta :/ 10:45 owen kados, part of me wants to say that yui stuff should be presentation layer, since theoretically it should all be progressive enhancement 10:46 owen You're finding cases where the markup needs to be altered to suit? 10:46 kados well the markup in head is pretty awful ;-) 10:46 kados so I've been modifying as I go 10:47 kados I'm prob about 80% done with members/ 10:47 kados not counting the memberentry stuff which needs a complete re-write 10:47 owen kados, the screenshot looks great, so it looks like you're on the right track 10:48 kados the other idea we had was to commit my modifs as a 'liblime' template 10:48 owen I'd hate to see your markup-cleaning only make it into a separate template 10:49 kados yea 10:49 kados IKWYM 10:49 Lea btw guys, jquery is VERY good 10:49 kados Lea: yea, I plan to look more closely at the ajax stuff shortly 10:49 owen Lea, any thoughts about how it compares to YUI? 10:50 Lea i wrote a really cool little webapp yesterday in 1 hour that allows you to enter a youtube URL, it'll dl the video locally and generate code that you can insert in moodle to view the video. Jquery is slick 10:50 Lea i can help with ajax stuff if you like, although I'm no expert 10:50 Lea I've not looked at YUI yet but it looks neat 10:51 kados owen: one thing that has to be included for grids (of course) is the correct class names 10:51 Lea AFAICT, you can intermix JS libraries, so you could use jquery+yui no problem. I *think*. 10:51 kados owen: which are yui specific 10:52 owen That's just layout stuff, right? 10:52 kados it's just things like <div class="yui-b"> 10:54 kados but there's also some javascript and css 10:54 kados that's a bit less pretty 10:54 kados for buttons/links 10:55 paul hello guys 10:56 kados hi paul 10:56 paul kados : the guys that answered on usenet forum are as septical as me about <p> removal. 10:57 kados I'm sorry to hear that 10:57 owen I guess if we're really going to be strict with the concept of the prog templates, we'd have to say no to the YUI stuff 10:57 kados the bottom line is that <p><p></p></p> is illegal whereas <div><div></div></div> isn't 10:57 owen But maybe the concept of the prog templates has never really worked 10:57 kados owen: *nod* 10:57 kados yea 10:57 kados on both accounts 10:58 kados the prob with prog templates 10:58 kados 1. they are not really prog templates :-) 10:58 kados 2. we have to do twice the work to maintain 10:59 kados the problem is no prog templates 10:59 kados 1. developers don't use design principles when laying out their html (they are programmers so that's ok) 10:59 paul kados : the concept of prog template never enthusiamed me. so, i have no problem abandonning them... 11:00 kados paul: but if we share a set of templates, we need to agree to a set of guidelines 11:00 paul and I still think (since more than 1 year...) that even developpers can write correct HTML if they have correct directions. 11:00 paul you beat me ;-) 11:00 kados :-) 11:01 paul I repeat what I said yesterday : give/write clear method to write templates, and i will obey. 11:02 owen I hoped that developers wouldn't have to use design principles when laying out their HTML. 11:02 paul owen : I think that's a good idea ... with enough developpers & template designers 11:03 paul that we don't have. 11:05 owen Then I think we're at a point were the Release Manager gets to decide what goes into the templates 11:06 kados I think the advantages that yui give us outweigh the minor problems with having it as the core template system 11:08 paul kados : what are the advantages ? 11:09 paul only a clear & standard GUI 11:09 Lea The reality is, most people will probably use the intranet interface as is and never change it. The opac on the other hand is the opposite. 11:09 paul or something else 11:09 Lea *by internet, I mean the admin stuff 11:09 paul ALL french users uses released templates. 11:09 paul (for admin I mean) 11:09 kados right 11:09 kados kados.org/stuff/moremember.png 11:10 kados well I'm addicted to Grids 11:10 paul Grids ? 11:10 kados it's the perfect solution to layout IMO 11:10 kados paul: in YUI grids is the layout module 11:11 kados and I really like YUI buttons too 11:11 kados to make a nice button all I need is: 11:11 kados <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span> 11:13 kados don't think the double span is even necessary come to think of it 11:13 paul class="linkbuttons first-child" should work 11:13 rch kados: I imagine grids are not supported in older browsers. Do we lose sorting functionality if these become default templates? 11:14 kados rch: datatable is what gives us the table sorting 11:14 kados rch: and grids do degrade well if your page layout is sane 11:14 kados I've tested all my designs with lynx 11:14 kados for sanity 11:14 kados and they are usable 11:15 rch just not resortable ? 11:15 kados right 11:15 kados cuz that's done entirely in js 11:15 rch yui docs say firefox 1.5+ and ie6+ 11:15 kados but honestly datatable's got some bugs 11:16 rch for 'full support'... 11:16 kados yea 11:16 kados we should definitely test the older browsers 11:16 kados but our current templates don't degrade well to be hontest :-) 11:16 kados esp with IE 11:17 paul rch / kados : on admin interface, we can say "firefox X.X or IE Y.Y needed" 11:17 paul so that's not a problem imho 11:17 kados paul: *nod* 11:18 kados brbr 11:18 rch Sure, and on the opac side, all the yui stuff will be enhancements, so not a problem if they don't quite work right on older browsers. 11:30 kados ok, so I'll commit my yui stuff, after I clean it a bit 11:30 kados and I'll stick to just grids and button for now 11:30 kados since datatable has some bugs 11:30 kados paul: that OK with you? 11:31 paul yep. then, i'll summarize what I've understood on koha-devel. 11:31 paul and if I'm right, let's modify templates... 11:31 paul (just to avoid doing things a 3rd time...) 11:32 kados yep