Time  Nick       Message
11:59 paul       anyway, I think we should choose 1 method and stick with it everywhere
11:59 owen       A screen reader used by a blind user would be able to handle the linearity of the table just fine (as I understand it)
11:59 paul       kados pointed the accessibility problem.
11:58 owen       I don't see any accessibility issues with a table in this case
11:58 owen       If you're not willing to use a table, I think that's the best option. I would argue that a table is not inappropriate, since you're presenting information which is structured as a grid
11:57 paul       is that what i'm looking for ?
11:57 paul       kados pointed : http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_dl.asp
11:57 paul       both p being vertically aligned
11:56 paul       name : paul
11:56 paul       surname : poulain
11:56 paul       like
11:56 paul       and the right one with the content.
11:56 paul       the left one with the description of the value
11:56 owen       <label> is designed for use with <input>, since you can match up the id attribute
11:56 paul       how to replace them in detail.pl scripts to have a 2 columns display :
11:55 owen       Yes, that was my understanding as well
11:55 paul       kados: just told me it isn't as <label> are for form fields only
11:55 paul       I thought it was valid
11:55 paul       in my prog templates, i've added many (zillions in fact) of <p><label>...</label>...</p>
11:54 owen       Yes
11:54 paul       ?
11:54 paul       owen do you have a minut to speak of html
11:52 kados      hehe
11:52 hdl        (hdl was wondering why pov-ray came into conversation :P )
11:51 paul       point of view
11:51 hdl        pov : persistence of vision ?
11:51 paul       thus, javascript and something like "tabs" in MARC editor
11:50 kados      paul++
11:50 paul       hdl : in fact, I think we should have 1 step only from software pov, but 3 steps from user pov
11:50 hdl        Or we could have divs lake tabs in MARCeditors.
11:50 hdl        But Passing a parameter to the template could be a solution rather than having it on three pages. and having <TMPL_IF Name="step1"></TMPL_IF>
11:47 kados      I agree
11:47 hdl        and not moving back and up with mouse.
11:47 kados      yea, scrolling--
11:47 hdl        owen : ppl like to see all information (of one type) on one page to check it all at once with a glance.
11:32 owen       Have you gotten feedback from libraries that a single page entry form is not working for them?
11:31 paul       (roughly)
11:31 paul       - library use informations
11:31 paul       - administrative informations
11:31 hpassini   it's to have all information without use scrollbar
11:31 paul       - basic informations
11:31 paul       owen : yes, adding a borrower needs 3 steps :
11:29 owen       Sorry, I'm coming in late to the conversation: Why are there three steps to add a borrower?
11:27 hpassini   yes
11:26 kados      hpassini: you don't have enough time to fix it you mean?
11:26 hpassini   I agree but actually we don't have enought time
11:25 kados      <form><input></input></form> :-)
11:25 kados      you can just have:
11:25 kados      <form>...
11:24 kados      <step3>
11:24 kados      <form><input>...
11:24 kados      <step2>
11:24 kados      <form><input></input>...</form
11:24 kados      <step1>
11:24 kados      so instead of :
11:24 kados      #2 is critical
11:23 kados      hehe
11:23 paul       (I wanted to wait until you had finished to type <enter> but my keyboard is too sensitive it seems...)
11:22 paul       (finish, I will say later)
11:22 kados      paul: why? :-)
11:22 kados      paul: ok, sure
11:22 paul       (I disagree with #1, I can argue why)
11:22 kados      2. only have one form in memberentry.tmpl for submitting
11:22 kados      1. merge memberentry*.tmpl into one file
11:22 kados      ok:
11:21 hpassini   yes
11:21 kados      hpassini: do you mean 'how to fix'?
11:21 hpassini   kados so what do we do ?
11:20 kados      owen: good timing, we're discussing templates
11:20 kados      owen: yup
11:19 owen       kados: you around?
11:18 btoumi_bis so what do we do ?
11:17 kados      especially since in dev_week and rel_2_2 memberentry.tmpl is only 180 lines
11:17 kados      ultimately, 2,700 lines of HTML are unmaintainiable
11:16 kados      we only need one template IMO
11:16 kados      since all the fields are identical for all four
11:16 kados      it means that if I need to update the memberentry templates I have to update 4 files
11:16 kados      sorry ... s/three separate tempaltes/four separate templates/
11:15 kados      2. there are three separate templates with three steps each
11:15 kados      paul: yep
11:15 kados      most libraries won't want three steps anyway
11:15 paul       (and some javascript)
11:15 kados      if you need to represent three steps, it could be done in css with only a single form
11:14 kados      and in the template, the content for the borrower is repeated over and over
11:14 kados      1. there are three steps to create a borrower
11:14 kados      I will explain
11:14 btoumi     kados what is the problem?
11:13 btoumi     koados what is the problem
11:13 btoumi     before the template was hardcoded
11:11 btoumi     in according with paul we made some change in template
11:09 kados      btoumi: in dev_week/rel_2_2 less than 200 lines and only one file
11:09 kados      btoumi: they are 600 lines a piece
11:08 kados      btoumi: memberentry*.tmpl
11:08 btoumi     kados can u tell me the file name please?
11:08 kados      paul: so we can use <dl> <dt>Name:</dt> <dd>Joshua Ferraro</dd></dt> ... </dl>
11:07 kados      btoumi: yep
11:07 btoumi     kados: about tmpl?
11:06 kados      paul: defines a definition list
11:06 kados      paul: to answer our question about semantics before
11:06 kados      paul: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_dl.asp
11:05 kados      btoumi: in head/3.0 it's 2,700 lines :-)
11:05 kados      btoumi: 1. memberentry in dev_week is 178 lines
11:05 kados      btoumi: hi :-)
11:05 btoumi     kados u have some questions?
11:04 btoumi     hi rch
11:04 rch        hi btoumi
11:04 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [warn] Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files]
11:03 rch        <record xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.loc.gov/MARC21/slim http://www.l ...
11:03 rch        <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] 314 bytes:
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] record 0 type XML
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] cache_fname = /zebra/rel_3_0/authorities/shadow/cache
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] enabling shadow spec=/zebra/rel_3_0/authorities/shadow:1G
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] database: authorities
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] specialUpdate
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] action
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] Received DB Update
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] Waitaction: 2
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [log] function: 1
11:03 btoumi     hi all
11:03 rch        10:00:02-19/03 zebrasrv(248) [request] Init OK - ID:81/81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:1.116/2.1.54
11:02 rch        zebra 2.0.12
11:02 hdl        rch : is there no other warnings before Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] ?
11:01 hdl        which zebra version do you use ?
11:00 rch        yes.
11:00 hdl        Is your authtypecode stored in 152$b ?
10:59 paul       and it's in the xml record for sure ?
10:59 paul       and it's in the xml field for sure ?
10:59 rch        001
10:59 paul       where is stored your authid in the authority ?
10:59 hdl        Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files] <- First time I come across this.
10:58 paul       Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-Number)
10:58 paul       The 3rd one, yes
10:58 paul       the 2 first, no
10:58 rch        ?
10:58 rch        13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [log] error grs.xml <no file> 0
10:58 rch        13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-Number)
10:57 rch        13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] bib1.att:5: Include of attset gils.att failed
10:57 rch        13:00:02-18/03 zebrasrv(71) [warn] Couldn't load attribute set gils.att [Too many open files]
10:57 rch        [warn] Couldn't open gils.att [Too many open files]
10:57 rch        paul / hdl: have you seen this error with updating authorities... ?
10:55 kados      it's not just 'an error' ... it's a suite of errors :-)
10:55 kados      so there is no missunderstanding
10:55 paul       what kind of error do you get ?
10:55 kados      we want to check before we start filing bugs
10:54 paul       but I think they did.
10:54 paul       I ? in this matter, we should ask the question to SANOP.
10:54 paul       (although authorities only a little)
10:54 kados      are you sure you've committed all code?
10:54 paul       authorities & serials yep
10:54 kados      paul: does san-op use these features?
10:53 kados      paul: from our tests, acquisitions, authorities, and serials are broken in 3.0/head
10:53 paul       give the ball to SANOP who write it ;-)
10:53 kados      anyway
10:52 kados      otherwise I will have to deal with 20X as much code
10:52 kados      it will actually take less time if I re-write it first :-)
10:52 kados      if I want to convert memberentry to YUI for instance
10:52 kados      what I mean is
10:52 kados      but working is relative
10:51 kados      right
10:51 paul       so, sometimes "better" is the biggest "good" ennemy
10:51 paul       and we know how many ressources we have at our disposal.
10:50 paul       because if it works fine, it's less important that something that don't work.
10:50 kados      right
10:50 kados      especially in a 'prog' template
10:50 kados      so we should have instead about 200 lines at most in memberentry IMO
10:49 kados      only 4 or so fields have been added
10:49 paul       Note that there are some/many new features that can explain some growth...
10:49 paul       I think you should list all things that could be better done, then we could set priorities...
10:48 kados      new memberentry is 20X longer :-)
10:48 kados      paul: I have an inclination to 'reject' the new members stuff based on this :-)
10:48 kados      paul: just to give some perspective
10:48 kados      paul: memberentry.tmpl in dev_week is 178 lines
10:47 paul       and it's even worst if you just want to modify the password : you'll have to submit the 3 forms anyway !
10:47 kados      it's quite repetative
10:47 kados      but if you read the template
10:47 kados      yep
10:47 paul       it's that you need 3 clics and form submit to validate a member.
10:47 paul       imho, the worst part is not that it is long templates (even if I agree it's a shame)
10:46 paul       I may agree, but that's SANOP stuff, it was their 1st stuff, so maybe we could clean it progressively
10:46 kados      do you have ideas how to make it less redundent?
10:46 kados      very hard to maintain
10:46 kados      IMO it's a nightmare :-)
10:45 kados      2,400 template lines just to input a member
10:45 kados      wait, 4 in fact
10:45 kados      we have three 600+ line templates for memberentry
10:45 kados      in members templates
10:45 kados      paul: another question
10:44 paul       will be very useful in many circumstances, I wanted to write this since months...
10:44 kados      cool
10:44 kados      ahh
10:44 paul       every subfield of each framework will be able to have a default value
10:43 paul       nope.
10:43 kados      like a plugin?
10:43 paul       one note : today, toins will work on a new default value for MARC editor.
10:42 paul       and as you & owen proved you're from far better designer than me, i'll follow your instructions.
10:42 kados      I think it's best too
10:42 kados      ok
10:42 paul       I won't change my mind on this.
10:41 paul       anyway, I think we must do anything needed to have only 1 set of templates.
10:41 kados      paul: ok, I will talk with owen and file a bug
10:41 kados      and half-way for moremember.tmpl
10:40 kados      I have already fixed member.tmpl
10:40 paul       (/me + toins, of course ;-) )
10:40 paul       if you let me know the best way to do this, I agree to parse all templates to fix the problems.
10:40 kados      if you need special style, <div class="specialclass">
10:40 kados      <div> is better
10:40 kados      though IMO it's a useless tag
10:39 kados      fieldset can be used anywhere
10:39 paul       ok, my fault too then...
10:39 kados      only if there is also a form :-)
10:39 paul       maybe a fieldset is invlid when there is no form...
10:39 kados      legend is specifically a caption for form elements associated with a fieldset
10:39 paul       arent's they legitimate when there is a <fieldset> ?
10:39 kados      in moremember, etc.
10:39 kados      also there are <legend> where there is no form
10:38 kados      we can ask him the best way to acomplish it
10:38 kados      owen is the expert in this
10:38 paul       (but I may be wrong...)
10:38 kados      paul: though should be avoided if possible as it's hard for screen readers, etc.
10:38 paul       I don't think so.
10:37 kados      paul: it's possible that <table> is also legitimate in this instance
10:37 paul       screens
10:36 paul       I wanted the same behaviour for display
10:36 kados      exactly
10:36 paul       <label> is correct in this case, because that's a form.
10:36 kados      right
10:36 paul       and the forms entries are column 2
10:36 paul       Any word / Title / author are column 1
10:36 paul       http://o5.bureau.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl
10:35 kados      which would allow a css designer to change it's position visually
10:35 kados      but you could wrap the label in a <span> tag
10:35 kados      to preserve semantics, the whole element should be a list element
10:34 paul       the "label" being left or right aligned, I don't care.
10:34 paul       I just want 2 columns : one with the labels, one with the content.
10:34 kados      and name?
10:34 kados      but not surname?
10:34 kados      ahh, ok
10:33 paul       mmm.... M and N should be aligned vertically
10:33 paul       name:        N AME
10:33 paul       surname:      MYSURNAME
10:33 paul       how ? with a <span> for "surname:" ?
10:33 kados      can you say again what you want?
10:32 paul       otherwise it's too hard to read.
10:32 kados      that can be done with css
10:32 paul       nope, that's not a list, as I wanted to have MYSURNAME & NAME vertically aligned.
10:32 kados      </ul>
10:32 kados      <li>..</li>
10:32 kados      <li>surname : MYSURNAME</li>
10:32 kados      <ul>
10:32 kados      so it should be:
10:32 paul       name:     NAME
10:32 kados      that's a list
10:31 paul       surname:      MYSURNAME
10:31 kados      also 'legend'
10:31 paul       so, how would you write something like :
10:31 paul       And most of them comes from me...
10:31 paul       shame on me. I thought it was valid as I wrote it. There are zillions of <p><label>...</label></p> in the templates
10:30 kados      so they are not appropriate for this context
10:30 kados      label is attached to a 'control'
10:30 kados      http://www.topxml.com/xhtml/xhtml_tag_label.asp
10:29 kados      <p> means 'paragraph'
10:29 paul       how would you write it ?
10:29 kados      it's not semantic
10:29 paul       its not valid html ?
10:28 paul       why is it a problem for you ?
10:28 kados      <p><label></label></p>
10:28 paul       it seems very "regular" to me.
10:27 paul       what is dirty according to you for moremember ?
10:26 kados      paul: look at the moremember and memberentry* tmpls for examples of very 'dirty' templates
10:25 kados      at least the members section that I have been looking at this weekend
10:25 kados      however, note that prog templates are quite 'dirty' too
10:25 kados      <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&amp;guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&amp;category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span>
10:25 kados      for instance, the buttons are represented as:
10:25 kados      there is some extra markup in that screenshot
10:23 paul       between prog and this screenshot ?
10:23 paul       what are the diffs for tmpl ?
10:23 kados      or shoudl it be 'liblime'?
10:23 kados      but the question is, should it be prog?
10:23 paul       why is prog not reliable for this screen
10:23 paul       YUI : ++
10:23 kados      paul: so fully translatable
10:22 kados      paul: and the + is a background image
10:22 kados      paul: css is used to style them to look like buttons
10:22 kados      paul: yes, they are fully text buttons
10:21 rch        they have released all their UI code under OS license
10:21 paul       otherwise it's untranslatable, and we have a problem
10:20 paul       just one note : "+ add adult" buttons are text buttons of course ? (except for the +)
10:20 rch        paul: Yahoo User Interface
10:20 paul       (hovewer, it's really neat, I agree.
10:20 paul       what are "YUI libraries" ?
10:20 paul       kados : "I have been integrating the YUI libraries into Koha with the following result'
10:19 toins      why liblime has been selected rather than other ?
10:18 toins      yep !
10:18 kados      toins: so liblime is lucky to have been accepted!
10:18 kados      toins: 2/3 were rejected
10:18 toins      i read it tonight
10:18 kados      toins: this happened with the deadline for organizations
10:17 kados      toins: because the deadline may be cut short if many students apply
10:17 toins      kados, ok
10:17 kados      toins: make sure to read carefully the GSoC specs and submit an application asap
10:17 kados      paul: hi :-)
10:17 kados      it will be her first programming project other than school projects
10:17 toins      excellent
10:16 kados      toins: maybe she could help with opencataloger too
10:16 toins      ok !
10:16 toins      kados, yes
10:16 kados      toins: she will apply too
10:16 kados      toins: do you remember sara?
10:15 gus        yes !
10:14 kados      gus too :-)
10:14 kados      yes
10:13 toins      ahh...
10:13 kados      even though you will work on the same project
10:13 kados      so that you can both get paid separately :-)
10:13 toins      why separately ?
10:12 kados      so toins and gus can apply separately do work on opencataloger
10:12 kados      excellent
10:11 gus        yes with toins
10:11 dewey      bonjour, gus
10:11 gus        hi
10:11 kados      gus: you're a student too?
10:11 toins      hehe ... good !
10:11 kados      hi gus
10:11 kados      you can all get paid :-)
10:11 toins      gus, here is one of them
10:11 kados      your friends can apply too!
10:11 kados      yes!
10:11 toins      kados, may i work with other friends ?
10:10 kados      toins++
10:10 toins      ok
10:10 kados      toins: opencataloger please :-)
10:10 toins      kados, so you prefer opencataloger than opensharetags ?
10:09 kados      toins: you have to submit a application
10:09 kados      toins: http://code.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=10442
10:09 dewey      well, kados is helping us LibLime folk with something at the moment
10:09 toins      kados ?
10:06 toins      kados, what i need to do exactly ?
10:05 toins      yeah !
10:04 kados      toins: so feel free to apply :-)
10:04 toins      kados, good
10:02 kados      toins: actually, since you can work before the deadline it will be fine
09:56 toins      ok
09:56 kados      toins: but we should check how it will work
09:56 kados      toins: absolutely
09:56 toins      kados, so do you think it's possible ?
09:55 kados      toins: it's fine with me :-)
09:55 toins      kados, is it not possible to begin in june and to finish in july ?
09:51 kados      bummer
09:51 toins      :-/
09:50 toins      and if we need to respect this deadline => http://code.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=60325&topic=10729 it's impossible...
09:50 toins      kados, my main problem for ggl soc is that i'm not available during august....
09:47 kados      I agree
09:46 hdl        Don't you think ?
09:46 hdl        But I'd rather not have to many nested span declarations without any content. I donot find it handy on long term dev.
09:45 hdl        I agree.
09:44 kados      but ... the problem is that prog is not so clean either :-)
09:44 kados      so maybe it should be a /liblime/ template and we should leave prog alone
09:44 kados      right
09:43 hdl        Not so clean.
09:42 kados      for instance, the button is represented as: <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/memberentry.pl?op=add&amp;guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&amp;category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span>
09:40 kados      hdl: I can put any image of a similar size behind the buttons
09:39 kados      hdl: do you have a image in mind?
09:39 kados      hdl: Kate?
09:39 toins      ok
09:39 kados      toins: look at the first paragraph
09:39 hdl        Maybe a sign just as create new file on Kate would be better.
09:39 kados      toins: http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=googlesummerofcodeideas
09:38 kados      hehe
09:38 hdl        But I am not keen on big +
09:37 kados      cool
09:37 hdl        I saw.
09:37 hdl        what you showed me was pretty.
09:37 kados      hdl: look at the link above for a screenshot
09:37 kados      *nod*
09:37 hdl        kados : paul should be back soon
09:37 toins      hdl, paul not around yet
09:37 kados      is paul back?
09:36 hdl        paul
09:36 kados      toins: cool
09:36 kados      hdl: we need to decide hwo to approach templates in 3.0
09:36 toins      and i'm happy to work on opencat
09:36 kados      http://kados.org/stuff/yui_borrowers.png
09:36 kados      hdl: I have been integrating the YUI libraries into Koha with the following result:
09:35 toins      kados, i'm never tired !!
09:35 kados      toins: are you happy to work on opencataloger? or are you tired of it? :-)
09:35 toins      the only one in fact..
09:34 toins      kados, yes
09:34 kados      toins: are you the primary author?
09:33 toins      kados, a first version will be released very soon
09:33 kados      toins: what is the status of opencataloger?
09:33 kados      hdl: it seems nice so far
09:32 kados      hdl: fyi ... just testing it out
09:32 kados      hdl: I have set up a git repo
09:32 toins      i think opensharetags could be a good project, yes.
09:32 kados      morning hdl
09:32 hdl        morning kados.
09:32 toins      hehe
09:32 toins      ah ok
09:32 kados      that's what I meant :-)
09:32 kados      paul's idea
09:31 kados      openshare tags
09:31 kados      oops
09:31 toins      opencontent ?
09:31 toins      but i don't have enough info
09:31 kados      do you think open cataloguer or opencontent is a better project?
09:31 kados      excellent
09:31 toins      kados, i'll be really happy & proud to participate to the ggl soc...
09:30 kados      toins: will you be applying to Google Summer of Code?
09:30 toins      kados, how are you ?
09:30 kados      toins: good to read you
09:29 kados      toins: !
09:29 toins      hello kados
09:29 kados      morning all
04:21 toins      hello chris
04:21 chris      hi toins
04:18 chris      :)
04:18 paul       yep. last minute try, that gave us enough points to win...
04:17 chris      i see france won the 6 nations
04:11 paul       i confirm i'm here ;-)
04:11 paul       hello world.
04:11 chris      hi paul :)
04:11 hdl        paul is around.
04:11 hdl        hi chris.
04:10 chris      hi hdl
04:08 hdl        hi world
17:56 owen       Hey kados
17:56 kados      hey owen