Time  Nick    Message
12:38 cm      hi kados
12:38 cm      do you have a minute?
12:57 rch     hi cm
12:57 paul    hi cm & rch
12:57 rch     kados is in NZ... it's still a bit early there
12:57 rch     hey paul
13:07 cm      hi guys.  :)
13:07 cm      maybe one of you can answer my question.
13:08 cm      i just ran update_items.pl, and got this error:
13:09 cm      counting first
13:09 cm      no recent items to update
13:09 cm      finding biblionumbers
13:09 cm      fetching marc and items data, updating
13:09 cm      Can't call method "fetchrow" on an undefined value at /usr/local/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/misc/update_items.pl line 93.
13:10 cm      i had just changed my kohaadmin password and was running this from the command line to test it,
13:10 cm      so I don't know if it's related to that or not.
13:11 paul    mmm... if it's your 1st error message, then no, it's not related to the kohaadmin password change
13:11 bureado I haven't used update_items, but I don't think it's related with the authentication.
13:11 bureado I think there might be an empty table somewhere.
13:11 paul    you would have something like "connection refused, for XXXX@kohaadmin on <mysql_db_name>"
13:12 cm      yeah.  but zebra has the password stored in all those kohalis files.  that's why I ran it.
13:13 paul    Can't call method "fetchrow" is related to mySQL, NOT zebra
13:13 paul    zebra errors are more weird ;-)
13:13 cm      I know, on both counts.  :D
13:13 rch     cm: you ran it with -all ?
13:14 cm      i was just wondering why this fetchrow error would crop up.
13:14 cm      okay, now i feel silly...I forgot to add the option on the end.
13:15 cm      ran it with -today and it worked.
13:15 cm      sorry to bug you all!
13:15 paul    cm ++
13:15 paul    your welcome.
13:15 cm      yep, thank you.  :)
13:15 paul    should I write "you're welcomed", our "your welcome" ???
13:16 bureado Don't feel silly. I've been fighting with the Intranet for 30 minutes trying to add a MARC framework until I found that the "OK" button in the spanish translation isn't type="submit" :(
13:16 cm      technically, it should be "you're welcome"
13:16 paul    what do kados in NZ ?
13:16 paul    works with katipo ?
13:17 cm      bureado: yeah, koha can be humbling like that. ;)
13:21 cm      i won't be getting to NZ anytime soon, but at least I'm going to Las Vegas next month.  :)
14:36 paul    ok, time to leave for dinner. read you back in 2 yours for the irc meeting.
15:29 bureado In Koha 2.2.7, when you Add a biblio, why is it so slow to load the MARC tags form? Does it load information about ALL tags? I assume that, from the User's Guide. Is there a way to avoid that? How do you improve the performance in the Add Biblio form.
15:34 waylon  heya all.
15:40 kados   hi all
15:40 waylon  20 minutes till meeting, ya?
15:41 kados   and I think paul said he needed more time
15:41 kados   we maybe need to push it back an hour
15:41 waylon  thats fine.. if it is for the rest...
15:52 kados   chris can't make it either, he's got a conflicting tech meeting
15:53 waylon  -nods- push it back then. hey, we need chris.
15:54 hdl     hi toins
15:54 hdl     hi kados.
15:54 toins   hello
15:54 toins   hi all
15:55 hdl     kados : I can be  back in an hour if every one agrees.
15:55 kados   hdl: great, read you then
15:55 kados   mail sent to koha-devel too
16:00 thd     kados: what would an SQL version of release 3 actually mean?
16:15 slef    hi all
16:16 bureado Hey
16:24 paul    hello world
16:25 paul    baby sleeping, wife reading book to the 2nd boy, 1st reading alone.
16:25 paul    i'm ready ;-)
16:27 paul    thd : a sql version of koha 3.0 would mean a version that don't need zebra.
16:27 paul    it would be interesting for "small" libraries
16:27 paul    (up to something like 30 000 biblios)
16:27 thd     paul: I understood that much but ...
16:27 paul    you want to know how much work it requires to develop it ?
16:29 thd     paul: actually, yes, my point of view without any customers to support is that maintaining multiple versions is too much work for the developers
16:29 paul    the idea would be to have only 1 version. Only a few things would have to be modified.
16:29 paul    2 in fact :
16:30 thd     paul: but what my original question meant is that why would you not continue with 2.X if you wanted to maintain SQL?
16:30 paul    because there are many many new features in 3,0 that would be a pain to backport to 2.2
16:31 paul    - zebraop function : zebraop stores something to tell zebra that the biblio has to be reindexed. we could check for a systempref, and, if zebra=off, we could use a reverted index to store things in SQL. I already wrote something about this when we started investigating tools for koha 3.0
16:31 thd     paul: why would anyone not want the advantages of Zebra?
16:32 waylon  what exactly does Zebra do?
16:32 paul    because it is hard to setup & maintain (from a user point of view)
16:33 paul    waylon: when a biblio or an authority is added, we store the "raw" record (XML) in SQL. we (almost) don't have any index on it
16:33 paul    but :
16:33 paul    we send a message to zebra saying "hey, zebra, please index this XML for me"
16:33 paul    then, when someone search in the catalogue, koha ask zebra :
16:34 paul    "hey, retrieve biblios with title=XXX ..., pls"
16:34 waylon  ah.. this is instead of the MARC style indexing...
16:34 paul    zebra does only this, but as fast as lightning
16:34 thd     paul; what about maintaining zebra is complex for the user after installation, and what users are maintaining there own?
16:34 paul    thd :
16:34 paul    1- impossible to dump a zebradatabase
16:34 thd     s/there/their/
16:35 paul    2- it sometimes crashes & requires full "reindexing"
16:35 paul    3- it's really hard to change anything in the index structure (and unavailable to a librarian I bet)
16:35 waylon  less flexiblity... right.
16:36 paul    so, if the library decides that (in UNIMARC) 502 field is now usefull, they have to activate it in Koha, THE?
16:36 paul    THEN
16:36 paul    going to zebra config file & update them (which is a pain)
16:36 paul    THEN
16:36 paul    reindexing everything
16:36 paul    quite a complex things.
16:36 waylon  how long does an indexing take?
16:36 paul    for a library with a full time computer scientist, it's possible.
16:37 paul    for a small library without, it's impossible
16:37 thd     waylon: actually Zebra is perhaps more flexible for the effort required but alien to the common SQL knowledge people already have.
16:37 paul    waylon: mmm... for example, for a 200 000 biblios database (like SAN-OP),
16:37 slef    dagnabbit, meeting was postponed by an hour
16:37 slef    only just saw that message
16:37 slef    now I've aimed dinner for the wrong time :-/
16:37 paul    reindexing requires around 1 hour
16:38 paul    (exporting datas from SQL to iso2709 & indexing in zebra
16:38 paul    )
16:38 thd     paul: yes but what small libraries are actually running Koha on their own even with just SQL in version 2 already?
16:38 paul    thd ???
16:38 dewey   it has been said that thd is just dying to tell you but I fear that if I reveal all I will lose the ability to obtain funding for a business myself. or skeptical about that as I would have seen only changes in the DOM that provide enhanced methods of access to the document historically.
16:38 slef    dewey: shut up
16:38 dewey   slef: i'm not following you...
16:38 slef    dewey: silence
16:38 dewey   slef: huh?
16:38 thd     dewey: forget it
16:38 dewey   thd: I forgot it
16:38 slef    dewey: mute
16:38 dewey   slef: huh?
16:40 thd     paul: are any small libraries maintaining their own installation of Koha now?
16:40 paul    yes & no.
16:40 paul    once installed & integrated in the local network, there's nothing to do.
16:41 paul    for example, backups are easy to do & well known.
16:41 paul    most of my customers don't have a computer geek near them & the server is always up.
16:41 thd     paul: could the issues for maintainance not be automated in a script?
16:42 thd     or set of scripts
16:42 paul    not all i'm afraid, because zebra is like unix : it's friendly, but very picky with who it's friends are...
16:43 thd     paul: do you mean it requires authentication for the server?
16:43 paul    no.
16:44 paul    I mean many things can't be automated because they require you to know exactly how to do them.
16:44 thd     paul: what do you mean.  Zebra functions are scriptable like any other good Unix application.
16:45 paul    maybe you're right and i'm not confident enough with zebra for instance.
16:45 paul    but I feel that it will be harder to maintain a zebra server than a full SQL one
16:46 hdl     dewey : forget thd
16:46 dewey   hdl: I forgot thd
16:47 slef    can someone put 'installer' under the 2.2.8 heading on http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=agendandnotes07feb07 please?
16:48 paul    can't you do it yourself slef ? you don't have write access to the wiki ?
16:48 slef    apparently I do
16:48 slef    sorry about that
16:48 thd     paul: I take it as given that Zebra is more difficult because Index Data does not believe in producing or has never been paid enough to produce full and complete documentation of the sort Ross Singer and I like.
16:48 slef    there are many wikis I can't edit - I thought this was another
16:48 paul    thd : indexdata produces long & large docs.
16:48 slef    buh!? "This page is read only. You can view the source, but not change it. Ask your administrator if you think this is wrong."
16:49 paul    the problem is that it's usually very hard to understand !
16:49 slef    paul: I don't have write access to the wiki.
16:50 thd     paul: I think the documentation is sufficient but it is not always as detailed and helpful as some MySQL documentation for the corresponding example.
16:50 paul    hdl around ?
16:51 hdl     yes
16:51 paul    you speak of web installer to slef ?
16:51 hdl     not yet.
16:51 hdl     was wiating for a good occasion.
16:52 thd     paul: do your Zebra scripts not work reliably every time?
16:52 paul    thd : i'm not sure, i don't have enough experience
16:52 thd     slef: what wiki page claimed you had no permission?
16:54 slef    thd: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php (Edit page link from agenda)
16:54 thd     slef: there have been some authentication/permission problems with the Koha wiki and I would appreciate a very complete bug report.
16:55 thd     slef: what was the exact error message. Can you reproduce ti?
16:55 thd     s/ti/it/
16:55 slef    thd: yes.  Exact error was in ""s above.
16:57 thd     slef: Kados had imagined it was a template change which I had introduced but I think it is something else if he has actually reverted completely.
16:58 thd     slef: what browser were you using when permission was denied?
17:00 thd     slef: and what cookie and JavaScript policy do you have set for that browser?
17:01 thd     slef: do you know what the page is locked by another user dokuwiki message is?
17:05 thd     slef: sorry to pester you about this but maybe we could resolve the problem, which I have never seen myself in my own usage, if we had more diagnostic information.  Kados said that nothing appears in the error logs.
17:05 kados   hi all
17:05 paul    hi kados
17:05 toins   hello
17:05 kados   sorry I'm late :(
17:06 paul    3mn late is not too much
17:06 paul    ;-)
17:06 kados   :-)
17:06 kados   so I suppose we can start
17:06 paul    + you're maybe still "jetlagged"
17:06 kados   well, I would like to use that as an excuse
17:06 kados   but I've been in NZ for two weeks no :-)
17:06 thd     kados: slef just reported a permissions problem with the wiki.  We could discuss what it might be at your convenience.
17:06 kados   thd: so maybe the problem is not with the template
17:07 kados   slef: did you have trouble editing a page after you logged in?
17:07 slef    kados: yep
17:07 thd     kados: I know the template code very well but I do have some ideas for diagnosis if you want to discuss it after the meeting
17:07 kados   shoot
17:07 kados   thd: sure, lets do that
17:08 kados   hehe
17:08 kados   so I guess first a roll call is in order
17:08 kados   who's here?
17:08 thd     kados: maybe you had not completely reverted but we will discuss after
17:08 kados   slef, thd, hdl, toins, and kados so far :-)
17:08 slef    MJ Ray
17:08 kados   hey rch
17:08 kados   rch is Ryan Higgins, he works for LibLime :-)
17:08 paul    waylon was here few minuts ago
17:09 tnb     i'm here :)
17:09 paul    while r*a*ch is Rachel, from katipo.
17:09 kados   chris is still at a tech meeting
17:09 waylon  im here
17:09 kados   great, I'd say that's quorum
17:10 kados   tnb is Tina Burger, also from LibLime
17:10 paul    paul, hdl and toins are all from the same company too.
17:10 kados   paul++ :-)
17:11 waylon  must be cool, getting paid for doing koha work.
17:11 kados   waylon: remind me where you're from?
17:11 paul    all frenchies and probably all listening or looking for france-argentina soccer match maybe
17:11 kados   ahh, cool
17:11 kados   so we have an agenda
17:12 kados   but I assume since slef had trouble editing maybe others didn't get their stuff added?
17:12 thd     kados: you would recognise the former nick of waylon
17:12 kados   anyone have anything to add to the agenda?
17:12 kados   thd: what's that?
17:12 paul    I don't have any problem adding what slef wanted to add
17:12 paul    s/don't/didn't/
17:12 waylon  Genjimoto
17:12 waylon  genji...
17:12 dewey   genji is waylon_'s username
17:12 waylon  eh.. i abandoned it, liking to use my real name.
17:12 kados   ahh, righ!
17:12 kados   right even :-)
17:13 kados   waylon: been a while since I've seen you, welcome back :-)
17:13 kados   paul: ok, great
17:13 paul    (hdl added "web installer" line too
17:13 kados   so we did the introductions already :-)
17:13 paul    )
17:13 paul    it seems ;-)
17:13 kados   who has some news? :-)
17:14 paul    some business news : we are starting 3 new installs in france.
17:14 kados   (/me got first introduction to rubgy and cricket here in NZ)
17:14 waylon  sweet, paul!
17:14 paul    2 on public libraries & one for a high school
17:14 kados   great paul!
17:14 kados   paul: 3.0 installs?
17:14 paul    nope. 2.2.x
17:15 kados   gotcha
17:15 cm      ccfls should be going live with meadville in march...
17:15 cm      though we keep moving our target date.  :)
17:15 kados   hi cm
17:15 waylon  Good. im kinda taking on 2.2.x as a pet project.
17:15 cm      hi all
17:15 kados   waylon++
17:15 paul    pet project ???
17:15 hdl     (3.0 is in production at SAN WP but you knew.)
17:16 kados   paul: it's an english idiom, means 'on the side project for fun'
17:16 waylon  Ya.. when i don't have anything to do.. i pick up a bug and fix it.
17:16 kados   paul: at least in american english, dunno in NZ english ;-)
17:16 paul    lol
17:16 slef    it's in English too
17:16 paul    so, 2.2.8 ?
17:17 hdl     + there was a french bug session Monda 22 January ... 108 bugs were raised.)
17:17 hdl     most of them fixed.
17:17 paul    hdl: 149 at the end ;-)
17:17 kados   hdl++
17:17 kados   wow, that's great!
17:17 waylon  which version, hdl?
17:17 hdl     but there are still some tricky ones with zebra.
17:17 hdl     (3.0)
17:18 kados   so some of you may have heard already
17:18 kados   LibLime and Katipo have signed a 'heads of agreement' for LibLime to take over Katipo's Koha operation in NZ, including hiring Chris, Russ and Mason
17:19 hdl     WoW.
17:19 cm      indeed!
17:19 kados   I'll post again for slef's benefit
17:19 kados   LibLime and Katipo have signed a 'heads of agreement' for LibLime to take over Katipo's Koha operation in NZ, including hiring Chris, Russ and Mason
17:19 paul    hiring chris/russ/mason full time ?
17:19 thd     kados: what is a 'heads of agreement'?
17:19 kados   it's quite big news for us :-)
17:19 kados   paul: correct
17:19 slef    thd: like a memorandum of understanding, I think
17:19 paul    wow !
17:20 kados   it's an agreement that will help both companies streamline our business workflow
17:20 kados   katipo isn't a Koha company, they are web development company
17:20 kados   and LibLime needs more capacity for Koha development and support
17:20 kados   so the arrangement is good for both of us
17:20 waylon  Will Katipo keep working on Koha, or totally give over to LibLine?
17:21 waylon  s/line/lime/
17:21 toins   waylon, good question..
17:21 kados   waylon: not sure 'give over' is the right phrase, but yea, katipo won't be working on Koha any more
17:21 thd     kados: what degree of difference will that likely mean for Koha development in terms of the time that chris, russ, and mason have as compared to the present?
17:22 paul    LibLime Ltd NZ will be a part of LibLime US, or something else ?
17:22 waylon  LibLime Ltd NZ?
17:22 kados   paul: it's a subsidiary of LibLime US
17:23 kados   chris and mason will have more time to devote on koha development
17:23 kados   so it will be especially good for the koha project
17:23 toins   great !
17:23 kados   waylon: :-)
17:23 thd     kados: that is understood but would you estimate the degree as compared to the time they are currently spending?
17:23 paul    so they leave katipo if iiuc
17:23 kados   and russ will be expanding the market in the austrialasia area
17:23 kados   paul: correct
17:24 waylon  iiuc?
17:24 paul    if i understand correctly
17:24 waylon  ah.
17:25 kados   so that's probably it for news unless anyone has any other items :-)
17:25 kados   or questions, etc.
17:25 kados   so 2.2.8
17:25 waylon  liblime got a job list?
17:26 kados   waylon: http://liblime.com/about/careers
17:26 kados   2.2.8
17:26 kados   I know there is at least one feature that still ahs some bugs
17:27 kados   the new corporate serials module
17:27 kados   it will be fixed soon though
17:27 rch     has anyone tested the holidays feature in 2_2?
17:28 kados   rch: was it committed to 2_2?
17:28 rch     yep
17:28 kados   cool
17:28 cm      rch, it seems to work in dev_week.
17:28 paul    rch : yep
17:28 rch     mason added to 2_2
17:28 kados   excellent
17:28 kados   mason++
17:28 paul    I have 68 commits to check on rel_2_2
17:28 kados   paul++
17:29 kados   paul: we also discussed doing something with templates for 2.2.8
17:29 paul    (you'll say ++ when it will be done ;-) )
17:29 kados   hehe
17:29 paul    right
17:29 kados   paul: do we want to eliminate default/css? or is it not appropriate?
17:30 paul    that would be a good thing. but i'm afraid we can't "afford" it here (in France)
17:30 kados   ahh, ok
17:30 hdl     atm I don't favour this idea.
17:30 paul    we already have too many things to do.
17:30 kados   because no french translation + no stylesheets for french libraries
17:30 paul    kados: ++
17:30 kados   ok, no problem
17:30 hdl     should be a great job to translate all the stuff.
17:30 paul    s/great/huge/
17:30 kados   maybe for 2.2.9 :-)
17:30 kados   yea, I can understand that
17:31 kados   it's a lot of work
17:31 kados   I have a small feature I created recently
17:31 kados   paul: you can tell me if you want me to commit it
17:31 thd     we need an internationalisation model which is not necessarily template dependent
17:31 kados   paul: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/16595
17:32 kados   paul: see the 'save record' feature?
17:32 kados   paul: allows saving record in a variety of formats
17:32 paul    would be great.
17:33 kados   ok, I'll put that on my list then
17:33 paul    although i'm afraid DC schema will not work for UNIMARC
17:33 kados   ahh, good point
17:33 kados   what about MODS?
17:33 kados   probably not either
17:33 paul    right
17:33 waylon  thats interesting. Saving via MARC frameworks?
17:33 hdl     Cool. Are you using XSLT ?
17:33 kados   hdl: yep :-)
17:33 hdl     loc ones ?
17:33 kados   hdl: I just used default LOC stylesheets
17:33 hdl     :P
17:34 paul    you show me the stuff, but did not commit anything yet, right ?
17:34 hdl     Lucky you.
17:34 kados   paul: right
17:34 kados   paul: Record.pm is commited to dev_week and rel_3
17:34 kados   paul: but not the new version that actually works
17:34 thd     paul: what do you mean by Dublin core not working with UNIMARC?
17:35 kados   paul: and it is completely independent of the rest of the system so it should work fine with rel_2
17:35 hdl     UNIMARC is way back to have so good standard helps.
17:35 paul    i know for months that someone will have to write the XSLT for UNIMARC => DC if it does not exist
17:35 paul    thd : the DC says "DC.Title" for the title.
17:35 paul    the XSLT must know where is the title.
17:35 paul    in MARC21, it's in 245
17:35 paul    in UNIMARC, it's in 200$a
17:35 kados   paul: i can hide the MODS + DC based on UNIMARC vs MARC21
17:35 kados   paul: until you or someone ahs time to create a stylesheet
17:35 paul    right. that was my plan too
17:36 kados   cool
17:36 kados   so what else for 2.2.8?
17:36 thd     paul, kados: we just need a UNIMARC implementation of the XSLT transform
17:36 kados   thd: yep
17:36 paul    thd : yep
17:36 kados   thd: you wanna work on that? ;-)
17:36 thd     yes
17:36 kados   actually it might not be too much work
17:37 kados   taking the LOC marc21 as an example
17:37 kados   thd++
17:37 paul    + http://www.ifla.org/IV/ifla64/138-161e.htm
17:37 paul    and maybe : http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/interoperability/dc_unimarc.html
17:37 kados   cool
17:37 slef    when is 2.2.8 aimed for?
17:39 paul    just to point 1 important thing
17:39 paul    (that I should have pointed as "news")
17:39 kados   sure
17:39 slef    hdl: can we get installer-NG ready for it?
17:39 paul    we are waiting for our 4th boy, and he should be here for late feb/early march.
17:39 kados   right
17:39 paul    so in march, don't expect too many things from me
17:40 slef    paul: there's a 'brown paper bag' error in 2.2.7's installer
17:40 hdl     maybe.
17:40 paul    brown paper bag error ???
17:40 slef    barcorde not barcode
17:40 paul    right slef.
17:40 paul    i also fixed a CRI bug in z3950 search today
17:40 kados   CRI?
17:40 paul    (when searching on title)
17:40 paul    critical
17:40 kados   ahh
17:40 kados   paul++
17:41 slef    paul: mistake so embarassing that developer should wear a brown paper bag over head in shame
17:41 paul    (probably BLO for you in fact ;-) )
17:41 slef    aha! paul++
17:41 kados   hehe
17:41 waylon  paul++ ... was goingto look at that today... had my linux boxen set up, to go ZOOM.
17:41 paul    slef : ok, I understand. in french : "bonnet d'ane"
17:41 slef    2.2.7.1 anyone?
17:42 waylon  huh? guess we've done alot of bugfixing.
17:42 paul    would be better that a poorly tested 2.2.8, with new features like holidays
17:43 paul    in fact, the 68 commits I have to check are related to bug for around 20 of them, and improvements/new features for around 50
17:43 kados   slef: i worry we've done too much between 2.2.7 and now
17:43 slef    so just 2.2.7 + paul's CRI + barcode + what else?
17:43 kados   slef: to do a mini release
17:43 kados   ahh, I see what you mean
17:43 slef    kados: I'll branch rel_2_2_7 and backport fixes if you want
17:43 kados   paul: that OK with you?
17:43 paul    yep.
17:43 kados   slef++ for offering
17:44 kados   slef+++ when it's done ;-)
17:44 paul    rch : I see you did some commit for mySQL5 fixes.
17:44 paul    is 2.2 cmopliant with mySQL5 now ?
17:44 slef    aye... sort of stuff that's been going on/going wrong this week, you never know  ;-)
17:44 rch     haven't tested thoroughly
17:44 waylon  huh? So.... I add bugfixes to rel_2_2_7, new features to rel_2_2?
17:44 rch     but am running 2_2 on mysql5
17:45 slef    waylon: no, add everything to rel_2_2 and email koha-devel about any blockers/CRIs for 2.2.7.1 please
17:46 waylon  ah. okay. so 2.2.7.1 won't have the new features, that right?
17:46 kados   so before we talk about rel_3_0 and the release of 3.0
17:46 paul    waylon: right
17:46 slef    waylon: or flag it in bugs.koha.org if you want (as that's something I'll check)
17:46 slef    waylon: right... just fix the worst cockups
17:46 kados   can we talk about the future of 2.2?
17:46 kados   esp as it relates to the improvements that are in rel_3_0?
17:46 kados   we have two options I think:
17:46 paul    it's related to  SQL version of rel3 or backport improvements to rel2_2?
17:47 kados   1. backport improvements gradually from rel_3_0 to rel_2_2
17:47 kados   paul: yes
17:47 kados   2. stop support on rel_2_2 and create a SQL version of rel_3_0
17:47 paul    I investigated a lot this question, can I explain ?
17:47 kados   paul: sure
17:48 slef    3. create a SQL version of rel_3 and /then/ stop support on rel_2_2
17:48 kados   slef: yea, that's what I meant
17:48 slef    3. feature-freeze rel_2_2, create a SQL version of rel_3 and /then/ stop support on rel_2_2
17:48 kados   slef++ for clarifying
17:48 paul    the problem with point 1 is that rel_3_0 has been cleaned a lot by toins. So it will be a pain, to backport things.
17:49 paul    the API changed in almost all .pm packages.
17:49 paul    for example, adding a biblio was :
17:49 paul    (3 parameters) = NEWnewbiblio(3 parameters) in 2.2
17:49 paul    (2 parameters) = AddBiblio(3 parameters) in 3.0
17:49 paul    the problem with the other possibility is that :
17:50 paul    - it should be "easy" to store a reverted index of records.
17:50 paul    i already have investigated that before we decided to go to zebra.
17:50 kados   what do you mean by 'reverted index of records'?
17:51 paul    we just had to improve "zebraop" to handle "indexing" of MARC records.
17:51 paul    the mac_words idea
17:51 kados   ahh, right
17:51 paul    marc_words idea
17:51 paul    the BIGGEST problem being :
17:51 paul    how to SEARCH with CCL/CQL/RPN in this db
17:51 kados   yea
17:51 paul    I don't have the answer to the question.
17:51 kados   that's tricky
17:52 paul    maybe we could use only a small subset of CCL for example
17:52 paul    considering that small libraries means smaller features.
17:52 paul    but i'm not 100% happy with this idea.
17:52 waylon  "CCL/CQL/RPN?
17:52 kados   one more problem
17:52 kados   is that almost all koha libraries, hundreds of them, use rel_2
17:52 slef    waylon: zebra-helpful query languages
17:52 kados   rel_2_2 I mean
17:53 paul    waylon: CCL/CQL/RPN are the 3 languages we can use to query a zebra DB.
17:53 kados   it's critical that we don't leave them hanging
17:53 kados   and the process of upgrading from 2.2.x to 2.2.y works fairly well
17:53 thd     paul: had you not told me that option 2 would be relatively easy before kados appeared?
17:54 kados   I fear upgrading from 2.2.x to 3.0_nozebra could be difficult to implement without a long testing period
17:54 toins   thd, i think so too
17:54 paul    thd : no, I just spoke of the 1st part of the job.
17:54 kados   toins: how long did you work on improving the API in rel_3?
17:54 paul    kados arrived just before I spoke ot the 2nd pard.
17:54 kados   toins: was it about two months?
17:55 toins   humm... yep 2 months i think
17:55 paul    kados: something like that. Maybe 3 months in fact.
17:55 thd     kados: have your version 2 to 3 migrations been going any better lately?
17:55 kados   thd: we've only done one of those
17:55 kados   thd: and its' a real pain!
17:55 paul    2 to 3 or dev_week ?
17:55 slef    the cleaned api seems miles better.  no contest to me.  option 2 and crack the problems
17:55 thd     kados: you do not have enough practise :)
17:56 kados   sorry, right
17:56 kados   2.2 -> dev_week
17:56 paul    because we added many things to rel_3_0 to ease the process.
17:56 kados   we don't have any rel_3_0 systems in production
17:56 kados   just dev_week
17:56 cm      yeah, please tell me dev_week -> 3_0 won't be too bad!  ;)
17:56 paul    and hdl & me already tried on 4 different DB (although not in production), and it's not a pain.
17:56 kados   paul: we're still testing rel_3_0
17:56 paul    it's just a nightmare now ;-)
17:57 kados   right
17:57 kados   cm: yea, don't worry
17:57 cm      good.  :)
17:57 kados   cm: that shouldn't be very hard, the hard part is going to zebra in the first place
17:57 cm      yes, indeed!
17:57 paul    hdl : maybe it's time to show up our new surprise ?
17:57 hdl     rebuildzebra you did ?
17:58 thd     paul: you mean to say that 'a nightmare' is less painful than 'a pain'
17:58 thd     ?
17:58 paul    yep.
17:58 kados   hey russ
17:58 paul    no, web installer. but it's not time, wait a minut ;-)
17:58 russ    hello all
17:58 kados   a web installer?
17:58 hdl     hi russ.
17:58 waylon  hiya russ.
17:58 paul    hi new liblimer.
17:58 kados   paul: not just yet :-)
17:58 kados   paul: April 1st if all goes smoothly :-)
17:59 paul    ah, I understand, it's a joke in fact...
17:59 kados   :-)
17:59 paul    I almost thought it was the truth...
17:59 kados   russ: the cat's out of the bat
17:59 paul    libLime conquering the world !!!
17:59 kados   russ: s/bat/bag/
17:59 toins   hehe
17:59 kados   russ: how was the cricket?
18:00 russ    good fun even though the results didnt got the way we wanted
18:00 kados   bummer
18:00 russ    :-)
18:00 slef    kados: swine
18:00 kados   hehe
18:00 paul    so, back to 2.2.7/8 questions ?
18:01 kados   sure
18:01 slef    kados: rooting used to be funny to aussies
18:02 kados   hehe
18:02 kados   so I guess we don't have any strong direction
18:02 kados   for what to do regarding the 2.2 vs 3.0 prob
18:02 slef    the cleaned api seems miles better.  no contest to me.  option 2 and crack the problems
18:02 rch     (cleaned api)++
18:03 paul    so, I may investigate (& write something on the wiki) my idea.
18:03 kados   paul++
18:03 paul    to see what kind of limits it will have.
18:03 paul    and see if they are acceptable or have to be solved.
18:03 kados   I'm behind a SQL version of 3.0, but we will need to make sure 2.2->3.0_nozebra upgrade is seamless
18:03 kados   excellent
18:04 kados   so the next and last item is 3.0 itself
18:04 thd     paul: given your thoughts for option 2 would the primary record be the XML record stored as whole instead of MARC in SQL?
18:04 waylon  so.. basically.. import all the SQL access/update stuff into 3.0?
18:04 waylon  marc_word tables etc?
18:04 hdl     thd : if you do so, how can you index ?
18:05 slef    thd: can't mysql handle xml yet?
18:05 paul    i'll explain my idea deeper on the wiki.
18:05 kados   slef: dont think so
18:05 paul    slef: I don't think either
18:05 kados   slef: at least not fielded searches
18:05 kados   slef: maybe full text on the whole document
18:05 kados   even that I'm not sure about
18:05 kados   paul++
18:05 waylon  so marc_word is still the best SQL way of searching.
18:05 thd     hdl: you could still have the nonmarc fields for indexing in SQL
18:06 kados   so the next and last item is 3.0 itself
18:06 dewey   i already had it that way, kados.
18:06 slef     Beginning with MySQL 5.1.5, two functions providing basic XPath (XML Path Language) capabilities are available.
18:06 hdl     thd : it is not enough
18:06 kados   as everyone probably knows, we're about a year behind our original estimates for the release date :-)
18:06 thd     hdl: I was referring to where the record is taken for display and editing not indexing
18:06 kados   slef: ahh, so that's worth looking at
18:07 thd     kados: welcome to the real world of apparent work versus actual work required :)
18:07 kados   slef: esp if we switched to XPath in zebra
18:07 kados   slef: I wonder how basic they are
18:07 rch     xpath is much slower, yes?
18:07 rch     (in zebra)
18:07 paul    so, we speak of 3.0 or still 3.0_nonzebra ?
18:07 slef    kados: I expect the world will be mysql 5.1 by the time koha 3.0sql is ready
18:07 slef    http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/xml-functions.html
18:08 kados   paul: so far 30=.0_nonzebra
18:08 kados   oops
18:08 kados   3.0_nonzebra I meant
18:08 paul    it seems ;-)
18:08 thd     rch: XPath is much slower for indexing but should be comparably fast to no XPath after indexing
18:09 thd     rch: unless someone has tests showing otherwise
18:09 kados   slef: so xpath might solve part of the problem, but we still will need to re-implement one or all of the query languages (CCL, CQL, PQF/RPN) if we want a consistant search API
18:10 rch     thd: yes probably just indexing
18:10 paul    kados: right
18:10 kados   so can we move to discussing 3.0 itself?
18:10 slef    kados: aye... I think it's more probable someone develops a query language -> XPath mapping for us
18:10 slef    if we're lucky ;-)
18:10 kados   yea, that would rock
18:11 paul    (/me starts training for the 4 voting days we will have soon ;-) )
18:11 hdl     (Indexdata may have worked on that already.
18:11 kados   so there's a new installer for 3.0?
18:11 paul    yep...
18:11 kados   hdl: added to 3.0 section ?
18:11 kados   good news!
18:11 dewey   good news is that search?q=callnum works now.  :)
18:11 slef    I can ask a friend and see whether we can get a grant to fund a student to hack on a query language to xpath converter
18:11 waylon  OS independant web installer?
18:11 paul    slef: ++
18:12 paul    hdl, throw the URL ;-)
18:12 hdl     i12.hdlaurent.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/install/install.pl
18:12 hdl     password and login you can get in your emila boxes.
18:12 slef    waylon: there'll be a system-semi-dependent perl installer for doing the sysadmin install... then hdl's super web installer takes over for web and database
18:12 paul    (you should prefill them in the template for the demo)
18:13 hdl     (slef knows it)
18:13 slef    (I've a problem with the perl installer... it keeps putting the CGI scripts in /usr/lib/site-perl, which isn't ideal)
18:13 mason   hiya everyone
18:14 hdl     So you have the link ?
18:14 tnb     hey mason :)
18:14 hdl     It is a web installer for all the data and datasets populating in Mysql.
18:14 slef    and language selection
18:15 kados   hdl: so the installer is just two steps? :-)
18:15 paul    + create the DB itself
18:15 hdl     It uses sqldumps user can make.
18:15 hdl     3.
18:15 hdl     1) languageselection + module verification.
18:15 hdl     throws a warning to librarian if not OK.
18:16 kados   cool
18:16 paul    (the step 3 is : http://i12.hdlaurent.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/install/install.pl?step=3&op=selectframeworks and nothttp://i12.hdlaurent.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/install/install.pl?step=3&op=selectframeworks%22)
18:16 hdl     2) looks mysqlconnection and database structure.
18:16 kados   is this committed?
18:16 hdl     slef told me. Had no chance to correct this.
18:16 hdl     kados not yet.
18:16 hdl     Still working on it.
18:16 kados   it's really great!
18:17 hdl     BUT
18:17 hdl     kados and all ther is a BUT.
18:17 paul    (on step 3, select "french" to see what it will be done for)
18:17 kados   hdl: what's the but :-)
18:17 hdl     Now sqldatas should be in misc/sqldata/
18:18 hdl     Now sqldatas should be in misc/sql-data/(en| fr)/ <your level>
18:18 kados   ahh
18:19 hdl     your level beeing required/recommended  or additionals or any other name you like.
18:19 hdl     It is not hardcoded.
18:19 thd     paul: what  is the login for that page?
18:19 kados   hdl: what is 'level'?
18:20 hdl     required : for datas taht are necessary for Koha to Work.
18:20 hdl     recommended : things that will highly ease the work of librarian.
18:21 hdl     additionals would be any fancy framework or list for instance CD frameworks..
18:21 kados   right
18:21 paul    or a subset to setup a classic public library
18:21 hdl     in the level directory, you have sql and text files.
18:21 paul    (like patron categories, itemtypes...)
18:21 paul    some authorized values
18:21 paul    ...
18:22 hdl     sql to import data to mysql base.
18:22 hdl     and text to describe them.
18:22 hdl     French language version of this page is more explicit than english atm.
18:23 hdl     english I had no data to put in.
18:23 hdl     I didnot know which framework to propose to persons for MARC21.
18:23 hdl     (which was the good one.
18:23 hdl     )
18:23 thd     hdl: all I see is an authentication form.
18:24 hdl     in agogme.com you have login and password.
18:24 hdl     kados ; same for you.
18:24 hdl     Cookies must be enabled.
18:25 thd     hdl: no every hidden directory on my site is open if you know where it is :)
18:25 hdl     (your email box)
18:25 hdl     kohaadmin
18:25 kados   hdl: yep, I got it
18:26 thd     hdl: well, authentication is required there
18:26 hdl     Normally at the end. When install is finished.
18:26 kados   so the installer looks great!
18:26 kados   I'm excited about seeing the code when it's done :-)
18:26 kados   great job hdl
18:26 hdl     I thought about chmodding dirr to 000  and getting to mainpage.pl
18:27 paul    the other part of koha setup being setting config file & virtual host can easily be put in a .deb / .rpm I think
18:27 thd     hdl: I trust that it looks great even if I cannot see for myself?
18:27 kados   paul: great idea
18:28 kados   slef: isn't threre already work on a .deb for 2.2.8?
18:28 paul    that could be slef job + I had a french candidate from Debian to create a .deb
18:28 paul    kados: right
18:28 kados   there remains 'what to do with rel_3 and HEAD'
18:28 paul    kados : no
18:28 kados   my opinion is to delete HEAD and replace with rel_3_0 :-)
18:29 paul    we havent spoke of rel_3_0 status yet !
18:29 kados   paul: oops, did I jump the gun? :-)
18:29 thd     :)
18:29 paul    here in France, we have SAN-OP going live with 3.0
18:29 kados   ahh, two items under rel_3_0 status were hdl's installer and what to do with HEAD & rel_3_0
18:30 paul    but they don't use some features like acquisitions.
18:30 kados   right
18:30 paul    we plan to setup a 3.0 at IPT.
18:30 kados   there is still a lot of testing that must be done before rel_3_0 can become 3.0 IMO
18:30 kados   rch has been testing on our end
18:30 kados   rch: wanna speak to that?
18:30 paul    right. the question being : who works on those tests ;-)
18:31 rch     i've been working mostly on dev_week
18:31 rch     t/ ++
18:31 hdl     slef++
18:31 kados   paul: it's the classic prob with OSS library software: librarians don't want to pay for testing software :-)
18:31 slef    kados: yes, but it really needs the web installer and new perl installer
18:31 paul    I have librarians that don't want to pay for testing, but are OK to test if they don't pay ;-)
18:31 kados   I have just resolved myself that 3.0 will be ready when it's ready
18:31 kados   hehe
18:31 slef    kados/paul: can we change installer for 2.2.8?
18:32 paul    slef : maybe.
18:32 slef    if it's ready, of course
18:32 kados   right
18:32 paul    what hdl is doing is not specifically related to 3.0
18:32 waylon  why do we have two virtual hosts, when they coexist on one server happily?
18:32 thd     rch: what has happened with the general purpose test suite Katipo was developing for company wide use?
18:32 slef    waylon: dunno... would help many people to merge them IMO
18:32 kados   thd: we'd have to ask russ or mason I think
18:32 rch     you mean rach?
18:33 hdl     (some of the modules are 3.0 specific)
18:33 toins   becareful t/ directory can only test module function but not all the scripts individually
18:33 waylon  slef: ive already done that..
18:33 slef    toins++
18:33 kados   toins: good point
18:33 thd     rch: sorry,  yes I Imagined that you were rach :)
18:33 rch     :)
18:33 waylon  check out wayrob.freehostia.com
18:33 waylon  cardnumber: pntskoha ... password.. the usual default.
18:34 thd     russ: are you still here?
18:34 rch     thd: i hope liblime will be adding to the t/ dir
18:34 russ    in spirit only :-)
18:35 slef    ; cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@wayrob.freehostia.com:/ checkout koha
18:35 slef    cvs [checkout aborted]: connect to wayrob.freehostia.com(64.72.112.20):2401 failed: Connection refused
18:35 thd     russ: what has happened with the general purpose test suite Katipo was developing for company wide use?
18:35 waylon  actually.. password not theusual default....
18:35 waylon  slef: cvs? don't have it.
18:35 slef    waylon: so how do I checkout it?
18:36 waylon  slef: oh.... right.. you want a download...
18:36 thd     russ: chris had mentioned that a test suite was being developed at Katipo during devel week
18:36 russ    we trialled a few things, but nothing really worked out
18:36 slef    or just an instruction?  is it a simple 'merge the two VirtualHost'?
18:36 slef    <waylon> check out wayrob.freehostia.com
18:36 paul    toins tried to work on /t, but we concluded that we could not do anything really interesting.
18:37 hdl     slef : waylon wanted to say look at
18:37 paul    because we can't test .pl, that are 90% of our code.
18:37 paul    kados : you said that 3.0 will be release when it will be ready. what do you plan to do to have it ready ?
18:37 slef    why can't we test .pl?
18:38 toins   and we can't test with multiple client connected to koha
18:38 hdl     what about selenium ?
18:38 toins   (to discover some mod_perl specific bugs)
18:38 paul    slef : because the result is a html page, that is hard to say wether it succeded or failed.
18:38 kados   paul: well for one, chris will be working on Koha full time soon
18:38 waylon  slef: its basically... put opac/ into the main cgi-bin/koha. put cgi-bin/koha, just the koha directory, into cgi-bin of the server.
18:38 hdl     http://www.openqa.org/selenium/
18:39 slef    paul: we could perl -c (syntax check) them maybe?
18:39 kados   paul: last time we investigated rel_3_0 it wasn't as stable as dev_week
18:39 slef    but I know much will have to wait until koha is configured
18:39 kados   paul: but a lot has been fixed since then
18:39 hdl     perl -c is a first step.
18:39 waylon  slef: Determine if you can set your PERL5LIB.. if not, you'll have to do a find and xarg, to set 'use lib'
18:39 paul    guys... we are speaking of 4 things at the same time, and it's quite confusing...
18:39 hdl     But it is usually  OK.
18:39 waylon  oh.. sorry paul..
18:40 slef    paul: flame the chairman ;-)
18:40 kados   hehe
18:40 kados   paul: so the question was 'what will be done for rel_3_0 to be ready for 3.0', right?
18:40 paul    kados, what do we speak about now ?
18:40 paul    yep.
18:41 paul    I see 3 differents things to work on :
18:41 paul    - installer
18:41 kados   as I see it we need 1. to test every component; 2. to make the install easier; 3. make migration scripts work better
18:41 paul    - testing & bugfixing (if we consider we are feature freeze, which is not official)
18:41 paul    - default CSS for OPAC & intranet.
18:41 paul    kados : right
18:41 paul    point 4 : migration
18:42 kados   hehe
18:42 kados   I'd say that's what needs to be done
18:42 hdl     kados:  point 1 we have done to a certain extent with our day in Paris Jan 22.
18:42 slef    2. should be solved by hdl's great work and forward-porting whatever we do for 2.2.8
18:42 kados   yep
18:43 hdl     3 paul worked on It.
18:43 hdl     and provided good bases.
18:43 hdl     That still need some work on.
18:43 kados   so I will set some time for LibLime staff to do internal testing of rel_3_0 and we will post bugs to bugs.koha.org
18:43 paul    (which 3 ? mine or kados one ?)
18:43 hdl     kados' one
18:44 paul    ok, then i'm OK.
18:44 kados   we will await hdl's new installer with great anticipation :-)
18:44 paul    does anyone have any suggestion for point 4 (stylesheets) ?
18:44 hdl     But default css would be a great thing too.
18:44 kados   doesn't san have some?
18:44 waylon  suppose i could start installing rel_3_0.... can it run under windows as well as rel_2_2?
18:44 paul    yep, but I think they are quite basic & could be improved.
18:45 kados   owen is on maternity leave
18:45 paul    maternity leave ?
18:45 kados   but I could nominate him to work on it in his absense :-)
18:45 kados   paul: new baby
18:45 paul    a baby too ?
18:45 kados   yep :-)
18:45 paul    already born ?
18:45 kados   yep
18:45 kados   about a week ago I think
18:45 kados   i was in NZ, so don't know exact date
18:45 hdl     i think so
18:45 paul    wow, there are many babies in koha team...
18:46 slef    paul: stop assigning bugs to them
18:46 paul    lol
18:46 paul    when I see liblime demo opac, I think he could do a great job at designing "official" OPAC.
18:47 kados   so I will talk to him about that when I return on the 15th
18:47 paul    I don't expect koha 3.0 before this date :-D
18:47 slef    aw
18:48 kados   hehe
18:48 kados   anyone have any other points to discuss?
18:48 waylon  kados: any reason why we have two virtual hosts?
18:48 paul    yes, a last one : do we declare feature freeze on rel_3_0 branch ?
18:48 kados   waylon: lets discuss that after the meeting
18:49 paul    waylon: reminder : it's 11PM here in france ;-)
18:49 rch     are we still hitting rel_3 v HEAD
18:49 kados   rch: good point
18:49 rch     if there's a feature freeze, we need a head
18:50 paul    tumer is not here, but I think branching head => tumer and rel_3_0 => head is a good point.
18:50 paul    tumer is not here, but I think branching head => tumer and rel_3_0 => head is a good idea.
18:50 rch     that makes sense to me
18:50 waylon  Tumer?
18:50 dewey   i heard Tumer was having lots of authentication problems
18:50 paul    waylon: tumer is a guy from Cyprus
18:50 thd     kados: why would you ever delete head?
18:51 paul    thd : not delete head.
18:51 slef    paul: france needs to move to english time ;-)
18:51 kados   paul: yea
18:51 paul    but say that tumer version is not head, but a specific one.
18:51 kados   yep
18:51 paul    and say rel_3_0 is the official one, so in head.
18:51 kados   paul++
18:52 thd     paul: Was branch head what was meant by kados?
18:52 waylon  ahh.. like Debian freezes?
18:52 paul    thd : I think so
18:52 thd     paul: you understand English better than I do :)
18:53 hdl     tumer could not commit on head for quite a long time now.
18:53 hdl     But there are killer fetures in it.
18:53 paul    thd : I already spoke of this with kados, so it's not my english :-)
18:53 hdl     He has problems with mod_perl under Windows.
18:54 thd     hdl: what is preventing him from committing?
18:54 hdl     he wnated to ask some more information to kados.
18:54 hdl     Maybe an auhtentication problem.
18:55 hdl     on savannah
18:55 hdl     or is it windows related.
18:56 hdl     tumer said he still waited for us in Cyprus :P
18:56 paul    (in my bedroom :-D )
18:56 kados   hehe
18:56 kados   so lets close the meeting
18:56 hdl     So do I.
18:56 kados   and I'll make sure to schedule another one soon
18:56 kados   within a couple of weeks
18:57 hdl     Thx
18:57 thd     kados; so is it to late to discuss wiki authentication problems today?
18:57 paul    I'll be here (even if baby is here)
18:57 rch     perhaps more discussion of HEAD on devel list?
18:57 paul    rch ++
18:57 kados   thd: unfortunatly yes, today is super busy
18:57 kados   thd: maybe write a mail to koha-devel? or to me privately?
18:57 waylon  someone ableto tell me why we use two virtual hosts?
18:57 kados   thd: I won't have time till probably fri or sat to work on it though :(
18:58 paul    rch / kados i'll write something on koha-devel about tumer/head/rel_3_0 branches
18:58 paul    (tomorrow morning)
18:58 thd     kados: what is happening with the Copyright assignment for Koha with respect to Katipo and LibLime Ltd?
18:59 rch     paul: great
18:59 paul    kados : you'll write something on koha-devel about other topics ?
18:59 kados   thd: info is forthcoming on that
18:59 kados   paul: yes
18:59 paul    ok, great
18:59 paul    oh !!!!
18:59 paul    I missed a VERY IMPORTANT NEWS !!!
19:00 thd     kados: I need more deailed diagnostic information for the wiki problem because I have not seen it myself
19:00 paul    the french NPO should be born next month.
19:00 thd     slef: are you here?
19:00 toins   NPO ?
19:00 paul    ENSMP + sociology + me had the 1st meeting, we have signed the papers.
19:00 paul    (Non Profit Organization)
19:00 toins   ok
19:01 paul    ENSMP should have transmitted them to governement
19:01 paul    we should have the feedback in something like 1 month.
19:01 kados   wow, that's great paul!
19:01 paul    with the feedback, the "kohala" will be a reality.
19:01 kados   w00t
19:01 paul    kohala = "Koha Libre Association"
19:01 thd     paul: if johnb does not do anything I nominate the French organisation to run the international association
19:02 russ    great news paul
19:02 russ    thd: small steps small steps
19:02 paul    i'll let you know whent it will be official, of course.
19:02 thd     russ: US grants are wasting away :(
19:03 paul    once the association exist, we will have our 1st public meeting, with everybody that want to join the association.
19:03 paul    ENSMP is very very experienced in such structures.
19:04 paul    so I'm confident we made something very sure for the future
19:04 rch     sounds good, paul!
19:04 paul    now, I can go to bed ;-)
19:04 thd     slef: are you still awake?
19:04 paul    bye world
19:04 toins   bye all
19:05 thd     good night France
19:05 rch     g'night, France
19:05 cm      bye all
19:05 thd     goodbye Ohio
19:06 thd     slef: I am still hoping you have not gone to sleep
19:06 waylon  so thats it? I can ask my two virtualhost question now?
19:06 thd     waylon: yes but your audience is now much smaller
19:08 thd     waylon: what are your virtual host questions?
19:08 waylon  anyway... ive managed, without support from the sysadmin at all, to put koha into a userspace enviroment, with no CPAN access, no PERL5LIB access, no virtualhosts (except for the subdomain that they gave me) .. no logs (CGI:Carp is your friend) ...
19:09 waylon  So.. in other words... a extremely constricted enviroment.
19:09 waylon  no ScriptAlias.
19:10 waylon  The question is.. why do we use two virtualhosts in the default koha?
19:11 thd     waylon: one is for the OPAC which library readers use and the other is for administration which only librarians use.
19:12 rch     waylon: i think it just makes sense.  two interfaces, two interfaces
19:12 chris   thats not enough for most places
19:12 waylon  no?
19:12 chris   most places have the intranet on another ipnumber entirely
19:13 chris   with firewall rules in place
19:13 chris   at least ones ive been involved with do
19:14 chris   not really
19:14 thd     waylon: if the address of the librarian interface is maximally secure it is probably also not widely distributed as an extra measure
19:14 chris   you might want ot put the intranet under https too
19:15 chris   s/intranet/librarian interface/
19:15 slef    thd: no. phone again.
19:15 thd     slef: ping me when you are off phone
19:17 waylon  what could someone do, with a intranet, without a password, to comprimise it?
19:18 thd     waylon: they could attempt to guess a password for one
19:20 waylon  thd: hmm.. secure passwords, not less than x characters.... adding of some password rules, like having compulsory requirement to have a few numbers.... mixed case...
19:22 rch     then the sysadmin constantly gets called to reset people's passwords :)
19:22 rch     people are bad with passwords.
19:23 rch     always better to have more security in place.
19:23 chris   waylon: there is no reason to open the librarian interface up to the whole internet
19:24 thd     waylon: they could try devious means to gain access to the server.  Security does not require obscurity but it does help.  There is no reason that Koha should be a real target for a cracking attempt but that is no reason to be complacent and therefore the most visible target to some cracking system wanting to make mischief in libraries
19:25 slef    thd: ping
19:25 thd     waylon: storing backups in a safe place is probably more important than passwords
19:26 slef    waylon: constraining the password reduces the search space for attackers... remember enigma?
19:26 thd     slef: you may have missed a couple of questions I asked when you were tripping over things
19:26 thd     slef: I am trying to diagnose the wiki authentication problem
19:26 waylon  ah.. adding rules, means the attackers have more rules to enter into their password generators?
19:27 thd     slef: what browser were you using when you had the permission denied message?
19:27 slef    thd: I suspect it's browser config.  It's an iceweasel, default policy is to deny everything (and blame the french).
19:28 slef    thd: I don't know what settings are needed by the wiki - could you list them on the login screen?
19:28 thd     slef: so you do not accept cookies by default
19:28 waylon  slef: Okay. in essense, having koha in such a constricted enviroment, as a production basis, is not good.
19:29 slef    thd: no, nor execute scripts, allow new windows, load images ...
19:29 thd     slef: I am not an admin of that system but I have modified dokuwiki templates to good effect in the past
19:30 waylon  So.... I just put the intranet host, in another subdomain, and obscurity of the subdomain plus passwords are better than just passwords alone?
19:30 slef    waylon: I have no qualms with it, if it's all that we have.  I think I'd want SSL on librarian if we can but may still be neater to merge the VirtualHost sections and SSLRequireSSL the librarian interface.
19:31 thd     slef: I noticed to my disappointment that dokuwiki uses some buggy javaScript in the editor
19:31 waylon  slef:who you setting up with koha?
19:32 slef    waylon: obscurity of the subdomain is probably worse than having both on one host... if someone discovers the hostname for the librarian pages, http://librarianhostname/ redirects them to the admin login... if it's on the same hostname as the OPAC, it's less obvious IMO
19:32 slef    waylon: some academics
19:33 chris   it wasnt obscurity i was suggesting, just a different ip range for a start, one not externally routed
19:33 slef    that has reason
19:34 waylon_ btw... you don't even need any virtualhost entries, if you want koha running from the main hostname.
19:34 thd     slef: my suspicion is that the wiki authentication problems others have had on the wiki are browser, JavaScript, and cookie configuration specific problems.  I have made many posts to a small set of pages without any problem so I have been left out of the fun.
19:35 slef    waylon_: just a SetEnv PERL5LIB in .htaccess files?
19:36 waylon_ slef: Dont even need that. A find | xarg line can put use lib '<path' statements into all your pl pm files.
19:36 slef    waylon_: SSLRequireSSL in .htaccess... as long as your web host gives you a modssl server configured by default.
19:37 slef    waylon_: modding all the files seems a little messy.
19:38 waylon_ as far as moddile allthe files.. not messy. One, well.. two lines. Doesn't take long to process, on my p3 box. 192 mb ram.
19:39 waylon_ 450mhz i think...
19:45 waylon  if you assume that all p* files have use strict; in them.. then this line works.
19:46 waylon  find -name "*.p*" | xargs perl -pi -e "s/(use strict\;)/use strict\;\nuse lib \'<pathtoC4>'\;\n/gi";
19:46 waylon  or is that "*.p?"..
19:51 slef    asleep at the prompt, sorry
19:51 slef    bbl
19:51 waylon  eh.. night then, slef.
20:45 tnb     chris: you still around?
20:50 chris   yep
22:58 tnb     chris: ?
22:58 chris   yo
22:58 tnb     oh good :)
22:58 tnb     hi :)
22:58 tnb     I need to get ahold of josh ASAP... you seen him?
22:58 tnb     he's not answering his phone
22:59 chris   hmmm ill ask russ
22:59 tnb     thanks, sorry for the bother
22:59 chris   no worries
23:00 chris   he's probably in starbucks :)
23:00 chris   ahh no, russ tells me he's on the bus to my house
23:01 tnb     ok, thanks :)
23:01 chris   so when he gets here ill let him know you are after him
23:02 tnb     ok, thanks
23:02 tnb     :)