Time Nick Message
12:35 btoumi kados: are u around?
12:35 tumer btoumi:is there a meeting tonight?
12:36 btoumi tumer: hi tumer how are u tonight?
12:37 btoumi tumer: yes i konw
12:37 tumer do you know is there a meeting?
12:37 kados there is a meeting at GMT 20:00
12:38 kados I think that's in about 40 minutes, right?
12:38 tumer btoumi:i have been very busy lately, how are you in general?
12:38 kados T-MINUS 40 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING
12:39 tumer are you sure about this timing?
12:40 btoumi hi kados:
12:40 tumer i think 2 hrs 40 minutes to GMT 20:00
12:40 kados you're right
12:41 kados T-MINUS 2 HOURS 40 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING
12:41 tumer see you than, i am working on acquisitions module
12:42 btoumi kados: when u have time can i ask u some details about koha server needs
12:42 kados btoumi: now is a good time
12:42 kados hehe
12:44 btoumi kados: sorry i ve lost my connexion
12:44 kados btoumi: now is a good time
12:44 dewey i already had it that way, kados.
12:45 btoumi ok i think so but i u check ure email we can see about this tommorow
12:45 kados btoumi: sure
12:46 btoumi like u want u decide u are the boss ;=)
12:46 kados now is a good time for me
12:46 btoumi ok now
12:47 btoumi can i have some details about network materials u use in ure library?
12:47 kados network materials?
12:47 btoumi sorry for my english
12:47 kados (also, I don't work for a library anymore :-))
12:47 btoumi ok
12:47 kados (I work at liblime.com now)
12:47 kados I can tell you how we have NPL set up
12:48 kados there is one gateway router to the internet ... which is provided by the state
12:49 kados then an internal router does NAT on one interface for the LAN
12:49 btoumi what sort of server do u have for koha
12:49 btoumi ?
12:49 kados the other interal interface provides a DMZ for all the servers
12:49 kados the current Koha server is quite old
12:50 kados it is a 99MHZ Pentium with about 2 gigs of RAM
12:50 kados 900MHZ I mean
12:50 kados and 7200RPM drives (slow)
12:50 kados the new server is much nicer
12:50 kados it's the one that zoomopac.liblime.com is running on
12:51 kados it has 4 gigs of ram and 10000RPM drives, and a 2GHZ processor
12:51 btoumi do u have different serveur?
12:51 btoumi for example one server for mysql
12:51 kados not currently
12:52 btoumi ok
12:52 kados in the past we did something similar
12:52 kados we had three servers set up:
12:52 kados with mysql replication
12:52 kados one server was master (all writes)
12:52 kados two were slaves (read only)
12:53 kados and all search requests were performed on the slaves
12:53 kados it worked quite well
12:54 btoumi your server works only with koha or u have another web site or other applications
12:54 btoumi ?
12:54 kados only KOha
12:54 btoumi ok
12:54 kados how many records do you have in the collection>?
12:55 btoumi ~250000 notice
12:55 kados ahh, yes
12:55 kados for that size you will need to either:
12:55 kados 1. use 2.4 (with zebra)
12:55 kados 2. do mysql replication
12:55 kados or else it will be quite slow
12:56 btoumi but i think we work with only one server
12:56 btoumi we discuss about this with paul
12:57 btoumi and he said me that we can choose quadriprocessor 8 go ram 4 scsi disc
12:59 btoumi i think it's good solution
12:59 btoumi peraph's the best
13:00 kados I don't think throwing more hardware will help much
13:00 kados it's also necessary to fine tune mysql
13:01 kados and even then, there's only so much you can do
13:01 kados the problem is one of design
13:01 kados in the code
13:01 kados and the db
13:01 kados which is why we choose Zebra in the first place :-)
13:02 btoumi yep
13:03 tumer btoumi:we have more than 200K records at the momemt, with zebra even one server is very satisfactory
13:04 tumer have zebra running on a differnt disk than mysql and it works fine
13:04 btoumi tumer: uthink that separate zebra and mysql is a good think
13:05 btoumi in different disk
13:05 tumer yes i think its better to have them running on different disks
13:05 btoumi ok it's a good thinks
13:06 btoumi it's a solution
13:06 btoumi tumer: do u have windows server or linux server?
13:06 tumer windows server
13:06 tumer never managed to get linux running
13:07 btoumi ok
13:07 tumer and kados did not give me space to try on his server:(
13:07 btoumi ;=)
13:08 tumer with zebra whether you are searching 200k records or 100k its the same
13:08 btoumi ok
13:09 btoumi but zebra use lot of memory ?
13:09 tumer but we fixed opacs to return 10 results per page
13:09 tumer no zebra uses very small memory
13:10 btoumi ah ok
13:10 tumer about 36 Mb at maximumum
13:10 tumer zebra search is miliseconds, retrieval is slower
13:11 btoumi we need only 36 Mb RAM for zebra u think
13:11 btoumi tumer:
13:11 tumer for indexing at first you need as much as you can give
13:12 tumer but for server i checked it even at busy times it never recahes 36Mb limit
13:12 btoumi but zebra don't indexing all the time?
13:13 tumer i mean indexing the first time (all the records)
13:13 btoumi yes i think so in migration part
13:13 tumer firdt time indexing about 200Mb is very good
13:14 btoumi we take a 6go or 8 go ram i think
13:15 tumer we currently use 2Ghz pentium 1Gb memory (2 will be better) with RAID SCSI disks
13:16 tumer kados:have some time?
13:17 btoumi ok thanks tumer: and kados for yr answer
13:17 tumer see you tonight btoumi
13:17 btoumi peraphs i ask u something tommorow
13:17 tumer staying for IRC?
13:17 btoumi yes
13:18 kados tumer: not at the moment, I'm headed out to get lunch
13:18 kados tumer: I'll be back in 30 minutes or so
13:18 btoumi good lunch kados
13:18 tumer k, acquisitions questions later than
13:18 kados pauls' better for acquisitions anyway
13:18 kados and hdl
13:18 kados maybe add your questions to the meeting agenda?
13:18 tumer but they are probably asleep
13:19 kados no ... they will be at the meeting
14:30 kados :-)
14:31 tumer[A] owen ++ for template
14:37 paul I try to beat tumer as the largest commiter in a few minuts.
14:37 paul but I won't succed i'm "afraid" ;-)
14:37 kados paul: in what branch?
14:37 tumer paul:i am having problems with rel_3 acquisitions does it work and with which templates do you know
14:38 paul i've removed opac/default in rel_2_2
14:38 paul tumer: you should ask toins, but PROG templates are supposed to work.
14:38 paul although I did not test them at all
14:38 tumer well they do not, actually acquisitions dont work any working branch?
14:39 alaurin hi everybody
14:40 paul tumer : i don't understand
14:40 paul hi alaurin
14:40 btoumi hi all
14:40 chris morning
14:41 tumer paul:do you know any rel_? that acquisitions properly work?
14:41 paul hello chris (not really morning here)
14:41 paul rel_2 works
14:41 chris 7.41 am here :)
14:42 tumer 22:41 in Cyprus
14:42 paul 9:41PM here
14:42 alaurin tumer is winning
14:42 chris :-)
14:45 tumer which country is it that uses GST, Brits use VAT Fench use TAV (i think) we use KDV who is GST?
14:46 tumer toins_:hi my man!!
14:46 paul france is TVA
14:46 toins_ hi tumer
14:46 dewey rumour has it hi tumer is still strugling
14:46 tumer sorry paul my broken french
14:48 tumer also acquisitions sets the beginning of budgets or end of budgets to end of June (where for us its January, Brits April and so on)
14:48 paul the budgets are as you want tumer.
14:48 tumer toins are you here?
14:48 paul in France, we have jan => dec
14:48 chris nz is GST
14:48 chris and australia
14:49 toins_ tumer: yep
14:49 tumer well i have found code that budgets are defined to end in July unless you set it
14:50 tumer toins: i cannot get rel_3 acquisitions to work have you tested it all?
14:51 toins tumer: normally all should be almost good on rel_3 acquisitions....
14:52 toins i can't test now, this computer hasen't koha installed
14:52 tumer let me rephrase that: is it the prog templates that supposed to work cause some modules seem to work with default templates and some not
14:52 toins rel_3_0 can only work with prog template
14:52 toins default & npl template has been deleted on this branch
14:53 tumer well i am still struggling as dewey says
14:53 toins heh
14:53 toins e
14:54 kados T-MINUS 5 minutes to Koha Meeting
14:54 toins tumer: what's your problem exactly ?
14:54 toins prog template aren't good enough for you ? ;-)
14:55 tumer well i add an order but when i search for it i do not get it back so i cannot go further than there
14:55 kados MEETING AGENDA: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=agendandnotes06sep13
14:55 thd tumer: can you find the order in the DB the directly?
14:57 paul tumer : just create a strong & stable API for catalogue, and we will take care of acquisition module on rel_3_0, with prog templates.
14:59 tumer i can find things in DB directly
14:59 thd tumer: and they have invoice numbers saved?
14:59 tumer paul:Catalogue API is finished , works with prog templates
15:00 tumer thd: i have modifieds it to save invoice number
15:00 kados everyone ready to start the meeting?
15:00 kados roll call first ... who's here?
15:00 tumer yep
15:00 chris me
15:00 alaurin yes
15:00 paul (and tumer seems to have started ;-) )
15:00 tumer me 2
15:00 kados hehe
15:01 kados cool ... I'd say that quorum
15:01 kados so the agenda's pretty slim
15:01 kados anyone have anything they'd like to add before we get started?
15:01 thd maybe if my system s finished thrashing
15:01 paul yes, but the content quite huge !
15:01 kados paul: true :-)
15:02 paul just some words about 2.2.6
15:02 paul (to add to the agenda)
15:02 paul & maybe we could start with this.
15:02 kados ok, that can be in the rel_2_2 section
15:02 kados sure let's begin, take us away paul
15:03 paul i've installed 2.2.6RC3 (unofficial RC) to 1 of my library.
15:03 paul they reported me 2 unimarc specific problems, and nothing more.
15:03 kados good news
15:03 paul i've worked on bugzilla, to clean all bugs declared affected to me.
15:03 kados paul++
15:03 paul I can see 33 bugs still open & related to rel_2_2
15:04 paul only 7 being blo or critical.
15:04 kados so maybe we should schedule a bug squash meeting?
15:04 paul and all of them waiting for an answer from you or chris.
15:04 kados ok
15:04 chris hmm, ill look through those after the meeting and put in answers
15:04 paul toins sended a mail to koha-devel, but you didn't answer
15:05 kados which email?
15:05 chris hmm i dont recall that
15:05 toins i'have writed a sum up on koha-devel
15:05 toins kados: "about bugs in rel_2_2"
15:05 chris yeah i didnt notice it either
15:05 kados ahh ... I see now
15:05 chris whats the subject line?
15:06 kados "about bugs in rel_2_2"
15:06 kados sent on Sept 06
15:06 kados hehe
15:06 chris not even joking :)
15:06 chris all the way back from 1999
15:06 kados cool
15:07 chris toins/paul: ill put comments on the bugs after the meeting
15:07 kados same here
15:07 chris so be ready for you tomorrow france time
15:07 toins chris: ok
15:07 paul ok.
15:07 paul those bugs fixed or not fixed, do you agree for a 2.2.6 official release
15:07 paul ?
15:07 paul (with proper release notes warning for unfixed problems) ?
15:08 kados yes, so long as the relase notes clearly define what we know is broken
15:08 paul ok, then we all agree, so i've nothing to add to 2.2.6
15:08 thd I have a concern about competing concepts of blocking bugs
15:09 kados thd: what is your perception of this topic?
15:09 thd some people namely kados are considering bugs blocking if it blocks there ability to market their services yet the program functions
15:09 kados (paul, since acquisitions is broken, that should be acknoledged as well in release notes)
15:10 thd kados: I think we should have some additional value to indicate blocked for marketing
15:10 kados hmmm
15:10 kados to me a blocker is:
15:11 kados 1. any 500 or 404 error and a link that leads to such
15:11 kados 2. a function that doesn't work as advertised (like acquisitions in rel_2_2)
15:11 kados 3. anything causing data loss
15:12 kados I think all of the bugs I've marked as a blocker are one of those three
15:12 paul for 1 & 2, i would add => and that can't be done in another way with Koha.
15:12 paul but I know kados & me disagree here
15:12 kados so I'm not sure I 100% agree with thd on my motives :-)
15:12 tumer yes but i think any official release should not have 404 or 500 and just give notice
15:13 thd kados: I agree that paul's concept of blocking as the traditional concept
15:13 kados so just to be clear on the point that paul and I disagree on
15:13 kados paul thinks that it's ok as long as there is a workaround somewhere else
15:13 kados paul: is that a fair characterization?
15:13 tumer i agree with kados
15:14 chris speaking of 500 errors
15:14 paul kados: yes.
15:14 chris we should make a 500.html page, and set apache to use that for 500 errors
15:14 thd kados: I do not impute your motives of course, and I understand that users may perceive most anything as blocking including being troubled by colour choice in the default CSS
15:14 chris that says things like check the error logs, report bugs at bugs.koha.org etc
15:15 kados so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug?
15:15 toins chris: i think 500.html is already done
15:15 kados chris: I think we have that already
15:15 chris hmm but not set by default?
15:15 chris or does it do that for 2.2.6?
15:15 kados maybe just for 2.2.6 ... /me isn't sure
15:15 toins currently a ".htaccess" is used to redirect when an error occured
15:15 chris ahh
15:15 kados ahh, so you have to have that enabled in apache chris
15:15 chris yeah
15:16 kados IIRC it's not by default in debian
15:16 chris might be better to do the redirect in the koha-httpd.conf
15:16 thd Is there no way to add an additional blocked for kados reasons 1 and 2 as options
15:16 thd ?
15:16 kados so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug?
15:16 kados I think we all agree that 'blocker' means 'can't do a release until it's fixed', right?
15:16 chris yes
15:16 thd kados: can we provide multiple types of blocking bugs in bugzilla?
15:16 paul yes
15:17 kados thd: that's not quite the issue here ... it's more that paul and I disagree over what should 'bock' a release
15:17 chris i think if something is known to 500 error
15:17 kados 'block' even
15:17 chris but if it can be done another way
15:17 chris then the link to the 500 error page should be removed
15:18 owen Unless paul (or someone) can provide an example of an acceptable 500 error, I'm inclined to agree that any 500 error is a blocker.
15:18 chris so that you can only do it the other way
15:18 chris does that sound reasonable?
15:18 kados same with 404 errors I assume
15:18 chris yes
15:19 chris if we know it doesnt work .. why point people at it
15:19 tumer what is an aceptable 500 error as owen says?
15:19 kados chris: sounds good to me
15:19 tumer 404 or 500 is "blocker" right?
15:19 kados tumer: that's what we're arguing about :-)
15:19 paul for example, something that is usually reached from somewhere, but can be reached from somewhere else.
15:20 paul example (existing in 2.2.4 iirc)
15:20 paul modifying a patron.
15:20 chris 404 is easy, tahts always a blocker
15:20 paul you usually do that from members => search => view detail => modify
15:20 tumer if you know it than correct it, if nobody noticed than its pririty bug when reported
15:20 paul you could do it from :
15:20 paul circulation => edit member
15:21 paul BUT it was broken in 2.2.4
15:21 tumer priority i mean
15:21 paul (not a 404, but something that did not work)
15:21 paul thus you could do :
15:21 paul circulation => view member => edit
15:21 paul just 1 more clic
15:21 kados does anyone agree with paul that the example he cited above is not a blocker?
15:21 paul not blocking for me, blocking for kados
15:21 owen The thing about blockers...they're only blockers if you know about them
15:22 tumer not blocking for programmers blocking for users
15:22 owen If we had known about that bug, I would have considered it a blocker.
15:22 paul but it's NOT blocking users. They have 2 workaround, one of them having just 1 more clic !
15:22 owen True...
15:22 tumer yes but they do not know that
15:22 paul I agree it's stupid, silly, and marketing unproductive.
15:22 tumer and its frustating
15:22 paul but it's not blocking
15:22 kados it's about perception of the software
15:22 chris thats not a blocker if you remove the broken way
15:23 owen I remember seeing a good definition of the bug categories a while back, I wish I could remember where I saw it
15:23 kados it blocks the user from feeling like Koha is stable
15:23 paul in this case, it's easier to fix it, in CVS. but releasing just for this is using a rocket bomb to kill a fly (imho)
15:24 tumer paul: if you know the bug why leave it? If you dont its not a blocjer until reported
15:24 paul however, I 100% agree, i maybe rock as developper, but I suck as vendor...
15:24 paul it's not a matter of leaving it, it's a matter of official releasing.
15:24 owen What do you know... there's definitions on koha.org: http://www.koha.org/community/bugzilla.html
15:25 thd_ kados: I think for paul it is actually a similar problem as you
15:25 chris under those definitiions pauls above isnt actually a blocker
15:26 kados up till now we've been doing releases every 4-6 months
15:26 chris BUT
15:26 kados if we were doing monthly releases we could do as defined on that page
15:26 chris the difference is that bugs are quite different before and after a release
15:26 tumer well at leat an official release should confirm taht at least one of the templates is working
15:26 thd_ paul: do I understand correctly that your users expect a reasonably consistent release schedule
15:26 thd_ ?
15:26 paul having a monthly release is too much for most libraries.
15:26 chris i think the confusion is, there are 2 different types of bugs
15:27 chris 1/ Bugs reported leading up to a release
15:27 chris 2/ Bugs reported just after a release
15:27 kados yep
15:27 chris pauls example above is a blocker in category 1
15:27 chris its not in category 2
15:27 paul chris: ++
15:27 chris ie as he said, we wouldnt do a release just to fix that
15:28 paul maybe we could have a wiki page to point every bug we know and that will be fixed in next release ?
15:28 thd_ chris:what is the difference for those 2 types of bugs?
15:28 tumer together with workorounds
15:28 paul (but not in the next days)
15:28 russ paul: cant you make a release in bugzilla and use a bugzilla report?
15:29 paul bugzilla is not considered as very friendly by most librarians.
15:29 owen Have fun everyone, I'll catch up in the logs
15:29 chris any bugs that are 500 or 404 errors leading up to a release are blockers and should be fixed before the release
15:29 paul but a tinyurl bugzilla could be enough
15:29 tumer chris++
15:30 thd_ chris: how do before and after release bugs differ qualitatively?
15:30 kados I think it would make sense to do a release with no known blocker bugs
15:30 chris yes
15:30 kados then, maybe a month or two later, do another release
15:31 kados with nothing but bugfixes
15:31 kados (maybe language translations too)
15:31 chris yes
15:31 tumer not arelease but may be just an update of debugged
15:32 kados tumer: do you mean a patch?
15:32 tumer yes
15:32 toins tumer: so a 2.2.6.0 then a 2.2.6.1 ?
15:33 tumer yes
15:33 kados we've never done patches before
15:33 kados I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users
15:33 tumer and a tar containing only the debugged bits
15:33 paul I agree.
15:33 thd chris: did you mean that user reported bugs are often qualitatively different to bugs already known to developers?
15:34 kados paul: what do you agree with?
15:34 tumer any new release is quite nerve recking when installing a patch may not be
15:34 chris no i meant that a 404 error reported after a release, with 2 workarounds isnt enough to trigger another immediate release .. but it certainly should be fixed before the next release .. if it was discovered before the release, it would block it
15:34 kados chris: I agree
15:34 paul I agree with : "I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users"
15:35 kados paul: ok
15:35 kados paul: do you agree with chris?
15:35 paul yes, 100%
15:35 kados ok, great ... so we all agree :-)
15:35 tumer well i am not sure about patches feeling
15:35 paul good news !
15:35 thd patches are only difficult to apply if they are difficult to apply
15:36 kados tumer: I like the patches idea, maybe we can explore it in the future
15:36 chris we could release patches, and see
15:36 paul so we could go to head/rel_3_0/dev_week questions ?
15:36 kados sure
15:36 paul hdl is not here ?
15:36 kados I can start
15:36 kados as you all know, I've been working on dev_week quite a lot, mainly with searching
15:37 kados there is a new search API which is not entirely committed but is much simpler than the old zebra one
15:37 kados and more completely uses CCL as a query language
15:38 kados it also takes many things out of the template to allow a librarian to customize how a search looks and works
15:38 kados only one thing prevents me from committing
15:38 kados a way to translate the labels of search points into other languages
15:38 thd kados: do you plan to integrate the improved features into your old Zebra search as well?
15:38 tumer ?
15:39 kados so I am eager for ideas for how to do that
15:39 kados thd: no
15:39 tumer kados what translation
15:39 kados so for example, take a look at zoomopac.liblime.com
15:39 thd kados: you had a fine idea during dev_week
15:39 paul maybe you could commit as it is & looking in the code will give us some ideas
15:39 kados click on advanced search
15:40 kados right now all of the search options are hard-coded as hash references
15:40 kados easy to convert to database table entries
15:40 kados but I wanted to agree on a data structure before doing that
15:41 thd kados: so it would be trivial to variablise them all
15:41 tumer kados:i am loosing you
15:41 tumer what is hard coded
15:42 kados for instance
15:42 kados in the advanced search
15:42 kados there is:
15:42 kados Keyword, Author, Author Phrase, etc.
15:42 chris first off, let me say that looks really good
15:43 kados all of those options are hardcoded as references to arrays of hashes and such so that in the template you don't have any of the variables stored
15:43 chris the only problem the libraries i work with are going to have with it is
15:44 chris http://zoomopac.liblime.com/search?&qf=it&do=Search&r=1
15:44 tumer kados:i have a similar one in head but those are just labels read from a user defined table
15:44 tumer so they can be in any language
15:44 kados tumer: yes, but that approach doesn't work with multiple language opacs
15:44 chris is the repeating biblios
15:45 thd chris: the inspirational model has been very well play tested but kados has some improvements you cannot guess until you perform a search using words often considered stop words on some systems
15:45 kados tumer: because when you switch languages the strings aren't translated
15:45 tumer yes but marc_labels are also teh same
15:45 chris apart from that (and unfortunately thats a big thing for them) it rocks
15:45 kados chris: yes, but 2.4 won't have that ability
15:45 chris yep
15:45 kados chris: it's too MARC_centric
15:46 kados tumer: exactly
15:46 chris will be good for our libraries that only have 1 or 2 copies of each thing... they wont notice
15:46 chris but the other ones will have to wait for 3.0 or 3.2
15:46 kados so we need a way to translate labels stored in the database
15:46 tumer we have multi lingual opac which only returns english labels for MARC details pages same problem?
15:47 kados so the problem is duplicated in the MARC details page already
15:47 kados as tumer points out
15:47 kados does anyone have suggestions for how to solve this problem
15:47 paul i'm afraid I don't
15:47 paul but I encourage you to commit what is already done
15:47 paul because seing the code, a new idea could emerge
15:47 thd kados: you can variablise anything as you pointed out during devel week
15:48 kados ok, I will commit what I have
15:48 paul thd : we have 2 problems here :
15:48 paul - complexity for the library
15:48 kados anyone have any additional things to say about dev_week?
15:48 paul - CPU consumming
15:48 paul yes, me !!!
15:48 paul what is the status of this version ?
15:48 kados go ahead paul
15:48 paul would you say it's stable ?
15:49 kados nearly
15:49 kados NPL goes live first week in October
15:49 paul because the main question I have is : we have 3 branches atm (+2.2)
15:49 toins and it will be a 2.4 release ?
15:49 kados and two other libraries in November
15:49 kados I anticipate official release to be in November
15:49 paul and we all agree we miss some ressources.
15:49 thd paul: the first is satisfied with a good set of language dependent defaults with some differing options
15:50 paul so we really need to reach a 1 branch only to join our strenghtes.
15:50 kados paul: I agree, but we can't agree on what features to pursue as a group!
15:50 kados paul: so it's a challenge
15:50 thd paul: if the solution to the first is good enough then you need a faster or load balancing server
15:50 paul if you think it's stable, then, I'll ask toins to port everything to rel_3_0.
15:51 kados but rel_3_0 is completely different!
15:51 paul where ?
15:51 kados where not? :-)
15:51 paul in what is it completly different ?
15:51 kados it's the former head with all the new features
15:51 kados new db structure
15:51 kados templates
15:52 kados code cleanup
15:52 paul and you're is mostly 2.2 + zebra
15:52 kados toins has spent a long time making this very different from dev_week which is branched from rel_2_2
15:52 paul right ?
15:52 kados right
15:52 kados not mostly
15:52 kados only
15:52 paul ok, so i'll ask toins to port zebra things to rel_3_0
15:53 paul do you think it's impossible/complex/quite complex/quite easy/easy ?
15:53 kados for Biblio stuff it's nearly impossible
15:53 kados it will need to be re-written IMO
15:53 kados for search, should be quite simple
15:54 tumer it should not be that difficult
15:54 thd kados: what do you mean by Biblio stuff?
15:54 kados thd: everything in Biblio.pm
15:54 paul but if we do a copy/paste, won't it work N
15:54 paul ?
15:55 paul do you mean the API has been so deeply modified ?
15:55 tumer the dev_week biblio could almost work as it is with rel_3
15:55 toins currently Biblio.pm from dev_week & from rel_3_0 are quite the same
15:55 toins tumer: yes
15:56 tumer so rel_3 can start working with zebra withminor changes
15:56 paul it already works, toins is playing with it daily !
15:56 toins tumer: rel_3_0 still work with zebra
15:56 tumer so no problem than
15:57 paul kados ? your opinion ?
15:57 toins i haven't test authorities.. just searching the catalogue from opac or librarian interface
15:57 paul are we missing something ?
15:58 tumer kados:??
15:59 paul to summarize rel_3_0
15:59 paul - it contains everything from rel_2_2, toins takes care of it
15:59 paul - it contains all head enhancements (the one from SAN-OP, and some from me)
15:59 toins except today commit
15:59 kados ok, I"m back
16:00 paul - it is synch'ed with dev_week by toins
16:00 toins except the code not commit by SAN ...
16:00 paul my idea/goal being to reach a stable branch asap, for SAN-OP
16:00 paul so, kados, are we missing something ?
16:01 paul it is VERY important, because SAN will decide tomorrow wether they go to Koha on january 1st or not.
16:01 thd kados: what had prompted you to think the differences in Biblio.pm between 2.4 and 3.0 are 'impossible'?
16:01 paul so I really need to have a clear view of what has to be done
16:02 tumer by head i think paul means rel_3
16:02 kados the problem we're facing is that only tumer and I understand how to use zebra
16:03 kados and I'm not a programmer :-)
16:03 paul I begin to understand it too, & hdl & toins too.
16:03 paul although i'm still not a friend of zebra
16:04 kados I can't evaluate whether what we've got will work for SAN
16:04 paul (& won't probably never become a lover ;-) )
16:04 paul why wouldn't it ?
16:04 kados I don't know :-)
16:04 chris SAN-OP have been working mainly in the members side
16:04 kados there is one big issue to resolve
16:04 chris and fines/overdues etc
16:05 kados how to keep biblioitems.marc, items, and zebra index in synch
16:05 chris i dont think there will be conflict between their work and the catalogue/search stuff
16:05 thd kados: but you must have had some thought as a basis for suggesting 'impossible'
16:05 paul chris is right here.
16:05 kados I've got a script that runs every 5 minutes and I think that works well but hasn't been tested in a production environment
16:05 tumer kados:i have it in production works smoothly
16:06 kados tumer: I have a different script I think :-)
16:06 kados tumer: what's your's?
16:06 tumer yes i know, mine is better:)
16:06 kados tumer: also, you aren't doing any circ, right?
16:06 kados NPL does a huge amount or circ
16:06 kados s/or/of/
16:06 tumer i do everything in marc
16:06 tumer my circ is faster than ever
16:07 kados at one point several months ago I attempted to merge rel_3_0 (then head) and dev_week
16:07 kados and I found it was impossible for me
16:08 tumer i have done that
16:08 kados but if someone else can do this, more power to them
16:08 thd paul: does SAN have to decide tomorrow about extending its legacy ILS contract?
16:08 tumer head is in sync except acquisitions
16:09 paul yes & no thd. that's not the biggest problem, even if that's one. they need to organize teaching, plann the deployment, buy a server...
16:10 chris the question then becomes
16:10 chris do we try to sync dev_week to rel_3_0 now
16:11 chris or do we wait for kados to commit a few more things?
16:11 chris by we i meant not me :)
16:11 kados hehe
16:11 paul :)
16:11 kados well I need to commit the search stuff for sure
16:11 paul toins already synch.
16:11 tumer i think kados will keep on committing whenever we sync
16:11 paul on a "daily" basis.
16:11 thd I have an idea for the language problem
16:11 chris ohh cool
16:11 chris in that case, its all good then
16:11 paul so, i'm waiting imptiently for what is still missing ;-)
16:12 kados ok, I"ll commit asap
16:12 chris if ppl keeping commiting to dev_week, and toins keeps syncing
16:12 chris then rel_3_0 will be dev_week plus all of san-ops improvements
16:12 tumer so why release 2.4 and not 3?
16:12 paul that was my next question ;-)
16:13 thd exactly
16:13 paul what time line for which version ?
16:13 chris id like an installable version of either :-)
16:13 chris thats the next big thing
16:13 paul I already said I won't release 2.4 here for frenchies.
16:14 paul but libraries are waiting for 3.0 !
16:14 kados paying libraries?
16:14 tumer if we have clean code working than we should use it!
16:14 paul and 2.4 is just 2.2+zebra, which is not interesting small libraries, that are happy with sql only
16:15 chris someone needs to work on making the installer work
16:15 chris before we can release anything
16:15 tumer a proper updater as well
16:15 paul one step after the other chris...
16:15 thd chris: is slef not working on that?
16:15 paul 1st have a stable version that can be installed by developers.
16:15 chris no
16:16 kados my problem is that I've exausted all of my resources just getting to where we are ... I can't focus on development for the rest of the year, I need to do some sales, etc.
16:16 paul 2nd build a strong installer to have an easy installation.
16:16 paul I have some resources (mainly toins + hdl)
16:16 chris ok, well imo we should be working towards a 3.0 release
16:17 paul (hdl is tired, he did some hard stuf for some hard clients, so is happy to code again & toins is just here to code)
16:17 paul (i take care of incomes for us ;-) )
16:17 chris i wasnt meaning for kados to work on it
16:17 kados :-)
16:17 chris he needs to get dev_week out to some clients
16:17 kados yep
16:17 chris but i dont think we need to spend time effort on packaging a releas of it
16:17 thd kados: do you mean that if you had sponsorship you could work more hours?
16:17 chris as long as the fixes/improvements we make
16:18 kados thd: no, but I might be able to afford to hire another programmer
16:18 chris in dev_week, get sync'ed to rel_3_0
16:18 kados chris: that's fine with me
16:18 chris so lets work on getting rel_3_0 installable and stable for developers
16:19 chris and not make a 2.4.x release which we will have to try and maintain
16:19 tumer why not get dev_week with NPL templates and for USA only without translations etc
16:19 kados that makes sense
16:19 kados tumer: because I already have soe translations of it :-)
16:19 paul tumer: that's what is about to happend in fact !
16:19 thd kados: so would that mean that NPL would have a private fork?
16:19 chris no
16:19 kados thd: no, but LibLime has one
16:19 paul thd : why ?
16:19 kados so it seems
16:20 paul what do you call a "private fork" ?
16:20 chris yeah its not private
16:20 kados it's not really private
16:20 paul it's not really private
16:20 thd paul: because kados has been developing 2.4 for NPL
16:20 kados hehe
16:20 chris :)
16:20 paul :)
16:20 paul it's just supported by liblime only.
16:20 kados originally I did not imagine tumer and I would be the only one's working on zebra
16:20 chris but we all get the benefit from it
16:20 kados in fact, I didn't even know tumer and I am not a programmer :-)
16:21 paul of course, if a french library comes & say "ok, i want this version, and have 1 000 000 EUR for this", then i'll use it in france (& refund some % to LibLime ;-) )
16:21 kados hehe
16:21 paul and you didn't imagine that zebra will be such a pain either !
16:21 kados I think I didn't anticipate paul and hdl and chris being too busy to work on 3.0
16:21 tumer they will say 1 000 000 $ not EUR
16:22 kados I assumed everyone would work on it (meaning zebra)
16:22 chris the reality of having to eat, means we have to do what our clients ask for
16:22 kados yep, it's unfortunate but true
16:22 paul chris is our "old wisdom man" it seems...
16:22 chris but the good thing, is that we still get to share those with others
16:22 thd kados: even I am eager to do something with XML Zebra
16:23 kados hehe
16:23 chris lol paul
16:23 kados so now that Zebra 2.0 has been released I can see that XML + XSLT is very interesting for Koha
16:23 thd s/XML/XPath indexing/
16:23 chris yes im very interested in that too
16:23 kados and I think probably after LibLime sells some dev_week stuff we're going to focus on that
16:24 chris ok, so to summarise
16:24 paul me too, but once again, i'm not sure to be able to work on this since a "long" time
16:24 chris liblime will work on dev_week ... with katipo doing some bugfixing (i have a couple of clients in mind for this version)
16:25 chris in parallel, rel_3_0 will be kept up to sync, and beaten into a releasable form
16:25 chris does that sound right?
16:25 kados yep
16:25 thd I have had a thought about language issues
16:26 kados thd: can it wait a minute?
16:26 paul yep
16:26 thd one could simply run a script to create differing language versions of hard coded variables
16:27 kados thd: that won't work for multi-language OPACs
16:27 kados thd: where the user switches back and forth between languages
16:27 paul (most of my libraries have at least french & english active)
16:27 paul so, it seems we are done with rel_3 & dev_week questions !
16:27 kados yep :-)
16:28 paul some minuts to spend for tumer work ?
16:28 kados yep, I do
16:28 thd kados: I meant to say that you would need a namespace for the different files for multilingual use
16:28 chris yep
16:28 paul I'm curious to know if it will be possible & how to move from dev_week/rel_3 to head
16:28 paul (migrate the database I mean)
16:29 tumer well head is in production with us so yes it will be possible
16:29 chris :-)
16:29 paul because tumer is playing a lot & greatly it seems, but we must remember we will have to migrate 2.2 &2.4 & 3.0 libraries !
16:29 kados just to get a sense of what is involved in migration
16:29 thd paul: only 2.2 is real trouble
16:29 paul that's my question 2
16:29 kados migrating NPL takes about 40 hours
16:30 chris what we need
16:30 kados the migrate script is a shell script that calls many other scripts
16:30 kados it's a nightmare :-)
16:30 tumer so from where HEAd should migrate from?
16:30 chris is a fast computer, with a big ramdisk
16:30 thd kados: do you commit your nightmares?
16:30 tumer from Dev_week or earlier
16:30 chris that everyone can use for migrations ;)
16:30 kados hehe
16:31 paul chris : hehe...
16:31 paul tumer : 2.2 -> 2.4/3.0 migration is possible. kados & us already know how to do
16:31 paul (even if it's quite a pain)
16:31 tumer migration from dev_week to head should not tkae more than 2 hrs even less
16:32 paul but with your new biblio structure, how can it be possible to automatize all of this ?
16:32 chris i have some recent experience optimising import code
16:32 tumer once you get the old marcs out of old db it can be automized
16:32 thd paul: you just divide and replicate the items into separate records
16:33 chris so i might be able to speed it up some, but not a huge amount i wouldnt imagine
16:33 thd s/replicate/populate/
16:33 kados chris: the longest time spent on NPL's migration is fixing the MARC records from 2.2.5
16:33 chris yeah i can imagine
16:33 tumer this is what i plan with head:
16:34 tumer currently i am trying to keep it in sync with rel_3
16:34 chris cool
16:34 tumer by the end of this month it should be all finished and committed
16:34 tumer after that i cannot keep trying to synchh it
16:35 tumer i am also debugging it very fast as it it in use
16:35 dewey okay, tumer.
16:35 tumer so you decide what we do with it
16:35 thd after that we can all work on 3.4
16:35 tumer it contains lots of bug remmovede that you have in rel_2 and rel_34
16:35 paul_2 stupid provider...
16:36 tumer addbiblio is now better handling of XML
16:36 tumer authorities works
16:37 tumer circulation is faster
16:37 tumer and all proper UTF-8
16:37 chris one question tumer
16:38 chris can it, or will it be able to group 'like' records in the search results?
16:38 thd chris: what do you mean by like records?
16:38 chris http://zoomopac.liblime.com/search?&qf=it&do=Search&r=1
16:39 tumer it works very similar to dev_week
16:39 tumer except everything is xml
16:39 chris right
16:40 tumer so any of kados's search engines will sit on top of it
16:40 chris im sure we can figure something out about that
16:40 thd chris: anything which functions in Zebra should work
16:40 chris ideally id like those first 3 results (the it's one) to all be on one line
16:40 chris not 3 lines
16:40 kados zebra won't be able to do this natively using a standard MARC format
16:41 chris yeah
16:41 kados the only way to do it is to create an abstract format that contains MARC (and other) records
16:41 thd chris: I am formulating a proposal for that for 3.4
16:41 tumer that looks like some perl coding rather than zebra to me
16:41 chris yeah
16:42 chris just checking
16:42 kados it's mainly definitions
16:42 chris im sure i can do something to make it look like its grouping
16:42 chris but was gonna make sure i wasnt doing it needlessly if tumer had a solution
16:42 kados it's the problem we've had from the beginning
16:42 paul_2 almost midnight in France (& 2AM in cyprus...)
16:42 kados how can HLT and NPL both be happy :-)
16:42 thd chris: my Idea is to extent FRBR to encompass the trans-adaptation conception of works in the original Koha record design
16:43 kados FRBR is too MARC-centric I think
16:43 chris cos thats a 'blocker' for not just hlt ... but any library that has gone to koha
16:43 chris thats one of the things they hated about their old system
16:43 chris s
16:43 kados yep
16:43 kados and it's what a lot of libraries hate
16:44 chris was that the patrons got confused by the results
16:44 kados the single biggest problem with MARC IMO
16:44 chris yes
16:44 paul_2 can we end the meeting ?
16:44 thd chris: you can hide the record complexity and still have it embedded underneath
16:44 chris yep paul
16:44 kados paul: yep
16:44 paul a last question to chris :
16:44 tumer yes
16:44 paul how is going your wife ?
16:45 chris i dont care about complexity, i just dont want 17 pages of results, when it can fit on 2 :-)
16:45 thd chris: we can fit your results on one line if you want :)
16:45 chris http://www.bigballofwax.co.nz/blog/files/crayon.jpg
16:46 chris paul: thats for you
16:46 paul I won't post my wife picture, but...
16:46 paul ... my family will have a 4th baby at the end of february ;-)
16:46 kados wow, so soon!
16:46 paul that's my last announce for today !
16:46 alaurin congratulations
16:46 chris congrats paul
16:46 tumer pauls been busy:)
16:46 paul the question being will it be a 4th boy or a 1st girl?
16:47 paul answer in october (6th iirc)
16:47 kados hehe
16:47 tumer it will be head!
16:48 btoumi congratulations
16:49 paul ok, bye bye & have a good day/evening/night depending on where you are located !
16:49 thd paul chris: at least your new children will be born into a world with Koha
16:49 paul btoumi: & alaurin => see you tomorrow morning.
16:49 btoumi yep paul:
16:49 paul toins : same note, but at 8:15 ;-)
16:50 toins paul_bed: ok
16:50 thd a much friendlier world than the one I was born into when you had too look at some massively large set of books to find out what other libraries held
16:51 toins bye all !!!!!!!!!
16:52 thd chris: with a trans-adaptation FRBR meta-record you could have the film, the novel, and the play all as a single result if you wanted
16:52 thd chris: there would still be individual MARC records underneath
16:54 thd chris: that was part of your original conception for Koha was it not?
16:54 chris yes
16:54 tumer goodnight all
16:54 chris but id settle for the book under the same result :)
16:54 thd chris: well I am going to make certain it gets implemented circa 3.4
16:55 chris righto
16:55 chris ill do a workaround for 3.0 etc
16:55 thd chris: I have discussed it with tumer and found that we were thinking on some similar lines
16:56 thd chris: this is only efficient for at least the 3.2 API
16:56 thd chris: that uses XPath indexing
16:57 thd chris: the dependency is Zebra 2.0 or greater
16:58 thd chris: 3.0 uses an entirely different indexing method and does not provide for meta-records which can each hold individually indexed records
17:00 thd chris: meta-records can hold any basic standard record relationship that some script can discover
17:01 alaurin bye everybody
17:02 thd bye alaurin
17:02 btoumi bye all
17:02 thd goodbye btoumi
17:03 thd chris: what is the status or plan for NZ acquisitions in Koha 3.0 vs the acquisitions on which others have been working?
17:04 chris we put all our fixes in 3.0
17:04 thd chris: so everyone is working on the same thing?
17:05 thd chris: what you had described as NZ specific acquisitions during devel week sounded like all the things that any good acquisitions system for anywhere should have
17:06 chris yep, it should be all the same in 3.0
17:06 chris basically they were just the stuff that got missed out in 2.0 .. and then werent fixed for 2.2 ... but all good for 3.0
17:07 thd chris: did you have any idea for making zoomopac multilingual?
17:07 chris havent had a real chance to think about it
17:08 thd chris: is multilingualism important for NZ libraries?
17:08 chris yes
17:08 kados it's very important to me
17:08 chris for public libraries
17:08 kados yep
17:09 chris there are 2 official languages in nz... it should be in least those 2
17:09 chris but then also samoan, tongan, chinese would be good too
17:09 thd kados: I did not know that more than one was official
17:10 thd s/kados/chris/
17:10 chris yep, was only one official language for a long time, maori
17:10 chris cos they never got round to making english official
17:10 chris it was just the defacto
17:12 thd chris: the problem with templates, even where they work, is updating them
17:13 thd chris: many variables would require much CPU but multiple files in different namespaces generated by a script should avoid the updating problem
17:14 chris its more than that
17:15 chris templates give you a lot more freedom than simple translation
17:15 chris but with freedom, means harder to keep up to date
17:15 thd yes: I do not see how to do without templates
17:16 chris i think its just something we have to deal with, try to make it as easy as possible, but realise its always going to be a burden
17:17 thd merely, that some language generation could be scripted and maybe that could be partly functional for templates
17:17 chris ok i better get back to work, got a bunch of tickets open from a client that i need to close
17:17 thd ok chris
17:18 thd kados: if you are stiff enough, I have a correction
17:48 thd v \] ,............................................................................................................................................................
17:49 thd oops, I dropped the keyboard
17:49 thd russ: are you there?
17:50 russ hi thd
17:50 thd hello russ
17:51 thd russ: has anyone asked yet about logbot for #koha-fr?
17:51 thd russ: I forgot to bring it up during the meeting
17:52 thd russ:do you know about #koha-fr
17:52 russ no
17:52 thd ?
17:52 russ sounds like a question for the koha-devel list
17:53 thd russ: people from SAN and some others are not comfortable communicating in French on a mostly English #koha IRC channel
17:54 thd they had been using a private channel but recently started using #koha-fr instead
17:56 thd russ: well paul had said he would ask Katipo about adding logbot for that channel so that people like me with poor connectivity can follow the developments in French occasionally
17:56 thd russ: but if paul has not asked you I will remind him
17:56 russ cool
18:21 thd kados: are you locked out or locked in?
20:25 kados thd: the problems with items not being saved properly persist
20:27 thd kados: when is it created?
20:27 kados I created a bibliographic entry for 6 + 1 Trait Writing: A Model That Worksusing the DVD, VHS framework. Then, when I added an item, it became
20:27 kados inaccessible. The auto-barcoding worked and the item was given a uniquebarcode number, but now I can?t edit or delete that item. Could I be using the
20:27 kados framework incorrectly in some way? Is there a vital MARC field that Ishouldn?t be leaving blank or something?
20:27 kados I am replicating this on the demo to test
20:28 kados and changeframework isn't working for some reason
20:28 kados arrg
20:29 thd kados: I have only seen frameworks not change when the frameworks had not finished installing
20:29 thd s/installing/importing
20:34 kados thd: I confirmed it happens in the demo too
20:34 kados so there's a hidden view
20:34 kados hidden bug I mean
20:35 thd hidden bug?
20:35 thd kados:when do the frameworks not change?
20:55 thd kados: what is required to reproduce the bug?
21:10 kados thd: create an item using the DVDs VHS framework
21:12 kados thd: if you then duplicate the record with the default framework the duplicate doesn't have the problem
21:13 thd kados:only the original record has the problem?
21:15 kados but if you duplicate it with the DVDs, VHS framework the same problem happens
21:15 kados so it's a bug related to frameworks for sure
21:15 thd kados: you cannot create items with a framework
21:16 kados thd: here are the steps to duplication:
21:16 kados 1. create a record using a framework other than default
21:16 kados 2. create an item for that framework
21:16 thd kados: all items use the default framework
21:16 kados (it will be an empty item, impossible to delete or edit)
21:16 kados 3. duplicate the record using the default framework
21:16 kados 4. create an item for that duplicate
21:17 kados it will be a normal item
21:17 kados 5. duplicate ehe record using a non-default framework
21:17 kados 6. create an item for that duplicate
21:17 kados it will be an empty item, impossisble to delete or edit
21:18 kados this is definitely a blocker bug!
21:18 thd sound extremely blocking :)
21:28 speedyfs hello everyone
21:32 speedyfs does anyone have a copy of PDF-API2-0.3r77.tar.gz
21:38 speedyfs ?
21:44 mason speedyfs: u need an old version, for the old barcodes stuff?
21:46 mason http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/A/AR/AREIBENS/
21:47 mason http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/A/AR/AREIBENS/PDF-API2-0.3r77.tar.gz
21:48 thd kados: does your bad record have a items.itemnumber ID?
21:49 thd in the item that you cannot edit
21:49 thd kados: my item has visible content and I cannot edit it
21:54 kados thd: yes, it has visible content
21:54 kados thd: some things are saved, others are not
21:54 kados it's definitely to do with frameworks though
21:54 speedyfs yeah
21:55 speedyfs sorry mason thanks
21:55 kados power just went out in half of Athens :-)
21:55 kados (the half my office is in :/)
21:55 kados so I packed up and head to a local bar :-)
21:55 mason no probs :)
21:56 thd kados: can you see lights on on one side of the street and off on the other?
21:56 kados thd: yes :-)
21:56 kados thd: literally :-)
21:56 kados the athens power companies are so laughable
21:57 kados so first off I'm gonna file a bug
21:57 kados then I'll test the default templates
21:58 thd kados: this was a problem before I changed the items labels?
21:59 thd s(/this )(was)/\2 \1/
22:02 kados ok, bug filed
22:02 kados thd: I don't know
22:02 kados thd: I think it's been a bug for a long time and noone noticed
22:02 kados ok now I test default
22:04 thd kados: Afognak had many items with no bar code after they had edited them which could not be edited or deleted
22:05 thd I had assumed that their deleting barcodes was the problem
22:05 kados I confirm it happens in the default tempaltes too
22:07 kados shoot, this is a really big problem
22:08 thd kados: does it happen if you reload the standard default framework only
22:08 thd ?
22:08 kados thd: it only happens with non-default templates
22:08 kados thd: specifically, the ones you created as I have no other ones to test
22:09 thd kados: I thought that you said it happens with default also
22:09 kados thd: it only happens with non-default templates
22:09 kados I'm 90% sure it's a code problem
22:09 kados I'm gonna try testing in stock rel_2_2 now
22:10 thd kados: code meaning non-template code?
22:10 kados yes
22:10 thd kados: code meaning non-framework code?
22:10 kados thd: yes
22:11 kados thd: it would not hurt to triple check the frameworks for some hidden problem though
22:11 thd kados: well we never found out about the UNIMARC only bugs paul spoke of earlier
22:11 kados thd: true
22:12 thd kados: if paul tested only default for MARC 21 he would have missed this as a MARC 21 issue
22:12 kados yep
22:14 kados I confirmed it happens with stock rel_2_2 also
22:14 kados sigh
22:14 thd kados:if you are confident that is not the framework then I can think of an excellent way to test
22:14 kados thd: how?
22:14 thd or confirm
22:15 thd kados: you could duplicate the default framework as an additional framework
22:16 thd kados:if it happens with the duplicate of default but not default then you know it is how the code is treating default
22:17 kados thd: I confirmed that creating a new record with default works
22:17 kados now I'll duplicate one created with default and see if it happens
22:17 thd s/treating default/treating non-default/
22:18 kados ok, it still happens
22:18 kados basically any non-default framework triggers the problem for marc21 records
22:19 kados and I don't see any strange errors either
22:20 kados now I"ll test with unimarc
22:20 thd kados: you have your own UNIMARC install or the UNIMARC demo
22:21 thd ?
22:21 kados I have a UNIMARC install that paul sent me
22:21 speedyfs mason: thanks a bunch
22:21 speedyfs mason: the barcode reader works now
22:26 kados of course, it doesn't happen in unimarc :/
22:26 kados damn it
22:26 thd ;)
22:26 kados thd: so it's either your frameworks, or else something in the code
22:27 thd kados:must be the frameworks if it does not happen in UNIMARC
22:27 kados thd: must it?
22:27 kados thd: so what is the difference between your frameworks and the unimarc ones?
22:27 thd kados:why would it not happen in UNIMARC
22:28 kados I've no idea :/
22:28 thd chiefly that I wrote them
22:28 kados hehe
22:28 thd or edited them
22:28 kados it looks like the structure of the files are different ... paul's aren't commented at all and are mainly a bunch of insert statements
22:29 kados slightly different syntax than your's
22:29 thd kados:what is different about the syntax?
22:29 kados INSERT INTO marc_subfield_structure (tagfield, tagsubfield, liblibrarian, libopac, repeatable, mandatory, kohafield, tab, authorised_value, authtypecode, value_builder, isurl, hidden, frameworkcode, seealso, link) VALUES ('090', '9', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 0, 0, 'biblio.biblionumber', -1, '', '', '', NULL, NULL, '', NULL, NULL);
22:30 thd kados:yes I had a discussion about that with paul before I committed them
22:30 kados and?
22:31 thd kados: there is no absolute need for the extra verbosity if you are newly creating the tables
22:31 kados right
22:32 thd kados: however, really stringent coding would require the most verbose form always so I asked paul
22:33 thd kados: less verbosity makes it easier to spot the important parts when editing
22:33 kados yep
22:34 kados thd: low priority request, remove all reference to ASMP
22:35 kados power is back on, I'm headed back to my office
22:35 kados brb
22:37 thd kados: ok I will make a test framework for the test I described earlier
22:53 kados ok
23:00 kados thd: I just duplicated the default framework and am testing that
23:01 kados thd: it seems the default framework is back to a very bloated version
23:01 thd kados: you added a framework name in all the correct places?
23:01 kados thd: the unmanagable one we started with perhaps?
23:01 kados thd: I used the Intranet to create it
23:02 kados wow, the default is really quite bloated
23:02 thd kados: oh yes that would be the easy way for that
23:02 kados thd: it does not occur with a non-default framework
23:03 kados thd: it occurs only with your frameworks ;-)
23:03 kados thd: I created a testing framework that is a copy of the default and adding items works fine
23:04 kados so there must be something wrong with the asmp_frameworks
23:04 thd kados: the default framework has only a few extra subfields from a few months ago
23:05 kados thd: I suspect the sql syntax is flawless
23:05 thd kados: does this happen with every non-default ASMP framework
23:05 kados I will test others to see
23:06 thd kados: yes, we would have had an import error if the SQL was a problem
23:06 thd kados: did you use an underscore for your duplicate name?
23:06 kados it happens with BOOKS
23:06 kados thd: no
23:07 kados thd: no underscore
23:07 kados thd: I will test with an underscore
23:07 thd kados: was your name more than 4 characters?
23:07 kados no
23:07 kados it was TEST
23:07 thd kados: I think that the template will restrict you to 4 characters
23:07 kados thd: the template restricts to 4 characters
23:08 thd kados: yes I increased the size of the columns
23:09 thd kados: that allowed for meaningful framework names and namespaces
23:12 kados thd: I have changed all the codes to 4 characters in the demo and I'm re-testing
23:14 kados thd: that must be it
23:14 kados thd: it worked
23:14 thd kados: have you tried 4 characters including an underscore?
23:14 kados thd: no
23:15 thd kados: try that
23:15 kados thd: I'm not inclined to since 4 characters gives us plenty
23:15 kados thd: I'm tired and just want a simple solution now :-)
23:15 thd kados: plenty for what?
23:15 kados thd: plenty of possible codes
23:15 kados thd: way more than any koha install should have :-)
23:15 thd kados: yes plenty in an absolute sense but not for readability
23:16 kados thd: I'd like to commit what I did
23:16 kados thd: I just changed the codes
23:16 kados thd: and I removed reference to asmp
23:16 kados thd: I'd also like to rename the file
23:17 kados thd: I'd like to call it marc21_bib_frameworks.sql
23:17 thd kados: I have a name suggestion
23:17 kados ok
23:17 thd kados: your name suggestion
23:18 kados ?
23:18 kados marc21_bib_frameworks.sql?
23:19 thd kados: marc21_simple_bib_frameworks.sql
23:19 kados ok, I'll do that and commit
23:19 kados and delete the asmp one
23:19 thd kados: I do like readable names and I do not think that we found the problem
23:21 kados thd: that's what the lables are for
23:21 kados thd: the whole point of a code is that it's short and can be easily indexed
23:21 kados thd: if all the codes start with SIMPLE then mysql doesn't index them efficiently
23:21 thd kados: I am inclined to suspect the underscore or something else
23:21 kados ok, I have committed
23:21 kados I will leave it to you to maintain, synch with other branches, etc.
23:22 thd kados: I did not think that index efficiency was a function of string length
23:22 kados yes, it is
23:23 thd kados: is the framework code even indexed?
23:24 kados it has a key assigned to it I think
23:24 kados there's no point to having a code and a label if the code is as verbose as the label
23:24 kados might as well just have a label to start with
23:24 thd kados: yes but that is not the same as indexing in MySQL, although, keys are certainly indexed
23:26 thd kados: it seems as if you are making an argument in favour of the byte economies of the original MARC design
23:26 kados I am :-)
23:26 thd kados: instead of the nice human readable labels we can have in XML
23:27 thd kados:it is not as if I made the column a text field
23:28 thd kados: I only made it VARCHAR (32) from (4)
23:28 kados thd: please change it back to 4
23:29 thd kados:and you know that no one can detect the microseconds lost in indexing the key for the framework :)
23:29 kados yes I know
23:29 kados but lets keep things simple and not diverge needlessly from the project's existing conventions
23:29 kados it causes headaches for me :-)
23:30 thd kados: that would mean that very little could have meaningful labels.
23:31 kados thd: they don't need meaningful labels
23:31 thd kados: I think it is the underscore
23:31 kados thd: that's what the labels are for :-)
23:31 kados s/labels/codes/ in my original response
23:31 thd kados: you are not editing them in vim
23:31 kados thd: yes I am :-)
23:32 kados BKS is just as meaningful as SIMPLE_BOOKS
23:32 thd kados: I mean staring at them for hours in vim till they do what they should :)
23:32 kados :-)
23:32 kados well however you want to represent them while editing is fine by me
23:33 kados but i think we should stick with the 4 character limit when we commit
23:33 thd kados: if all the code in Koha were that economical it would be unreadable
23:33 thd kados: I think the best solution is one framework that changes dynamically
23:34 kados I agree ... but that won't appear until 2.2.8 :-)
23:34 thd kados: I thought that was a 3.4 feature
23:34 kados yea ...
23:35 kados in 3.2 we could do it with xslt
23:35 kados there's so much we could be doing if we had the resources
23:35 kados it's frustrating
23:35 kados anyway, I need to sleep now
23:35 thd kados: I am too tired to go to sleep
23:36 kados :-)
23:36 kados ok, I'm gonna head out
23:36 kados thanks for troubleshooting with me thd
23:36 thd kados: when you are awake I will explain something about what standard frameworks might be
23:36 kados g'night #koha
23:37 thd kados:you will see that 4 characters will be difficult to keep the frameworks straight because the letters would become arbitrary code assignments
01:10 Mordazy hi all
01:10 Mordazy anybody here using KOHA in a lib that has several branches?
01:30 thd Mordazy: many are
01:30 Mordazy okay
01:30 Mordazy one question:
01:30 thd Mordazy: did you have a question about branches?
01:31 Mordazy on the koha mailing list? yes
01:32 thd Mordazy: I do not understand your question if you have asked it yet
01:32 Mordazy sorry, I thought you asked about question I posted to mailing list
01:32 Mordazy I need to know if branches can for example return or issue items from each other?
01:33 Mordazy I mean, there are two branches, for example Adult Fiction and Multimedia
01:34 thd Mordazy: there is a branch transfer function
01:35 Mordazy but I don`t want branches to mess in each other`s transactions
01:35 thd Mordazy: I may be mistaken, but I believe any branch can charge out items
01:35 Mordazy hmmm
01:36 thd Mordazy: you can also add restrictions
01:36 Mordazy o! tell me more.
01:36 thd Mordazy: there are very detailed set of permissions for users including librarians
01:37 Mordazy my lib has 6 branches, some in distant locations. I DON`T want staff from Adult Fiction to do ANYTHING but view with items or transactions from other branches
01:37 Mordazy the same applying to any other branch
01:38 thd Mordazy: I do not administer a real library so I have not spent much time looking for where the options are
01:38 thd Mordazy: I believe that you can prevent that absolutely
01:39 Mordazy My Koha is not ready for use yet, and I need some quick answers...
01:39 thd Mordazy: there are also mechanisms where one branch can transfer material to another branch
01:40 Mordazy so it`s possible to restrict staff from a branch from issuing, returning (or modifying issues) items from other branches?
01:40 Mordazy brb
01:51 Mordazy transfers bettween branches are not important now
01:51 Mordazy My biggest concern is how to make sure that staff from branch one can`t mess anything in transactions from branch two. For example: can staff from Adult Fiction branch borrow, return etc. items from Multimedia Branch? I hope they can`t by default, because there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult
01:55 thd Mordazy: staff cannot even circulate material by default
01:56 Mordazy okay...
01:57 thd Mordazy: you have to enable permissions specifically
01:57 Mordazy but if they can circulate, are they restricted from issuing/returning/prolonging materials from other branches
01:57 Mordazy ?
01:59 thd Mordazy: there seems to be no explicit permission restricting that in the members settings but that may be controlled by a combination of factors
02:00 Mordazy exactly, no explicit permissions / restrictions
02:00 thd Mordazy: unfortunately I actually know least of all about how Koha manage
02:01 Mordazy the question is, whether the system denies such actions, or allows them
02:01 thd s circulation
02:01 Mordazy :(
02:01 Mordazy piry :(
02:01 Mordazy pity
02:03 thd Mordazy: if it is not set implicitly by a combination of user and branch settings then you could easily hire someone familiar with Koha circulation to fix the code for that
02:03 osmoze hello #koha
02:03 thd hello osmoze
02:03 thd osmoze does you library have more than one branch?
02:04 osmoze yes
02:04 osmoze 3 branch
02:05 thd osmoze: do you know if there is an existing method to prevent the circulating librarian from circulating or renewing material from a different branch to the branch that librarian is associated
02:05 thd ?
02:06 osmoze i think no
02:07 thd Mordazy: well there could be. I think it would be very easy to code actually
02:07 Mordazy probably
02:07 Mordazy but not for me, at least yet :(
02:09 thd Mordazy: you should communicate with some one on this list ...
02:09 thd http://www.koha.org/support/pay.html
02:09 Mordazy the problem is, that the management of my lib wants a system that works OUR way right out the box
02:10 thd Mordazy: very little good software would be expected to do that
02:10 Mordazy yeah
02:10 Mordazy but actually I demand only one thing
02:11 thd Mordazy: the database has a place to store the home branch for each user including librarians
02:11 Mordazy that branches` staff don`t go in each other`s way
02:12 Mordazy brb, will check something with our current ILS
02:13 thd Mordazy: so you would only need the system to check the librarian branch affiliation when checking for circulation permission
02:16 Mordazy I guess my question was not precise
02:16 Mordazy actually I don`t care about staff, I care about COMPUTERS in branches
02:17 Mordazy I know that computer registers itself by a cookie, which branch it belongs to
02:19 Mordazy so I actually should have asked if computer in Adult Fiction branch can circulate items from Multimedia, since it`s registered in Adult Fiction
02:20 thd Mordazy: well that could certainly be another method of restriction and maybe that one works by default even where there maybe no restriction for the librarian with circulation privileges
02:24 thd good morning hdl
02:25 osmoze lo hdl
02:25 hdl hi thd
02:26 thd hdl: can computers at one branch be used to circulate material not present at that branch?
02:26 hdl unless IndependantBranches is set, yes.
02:27 thd hdl: and if independent branches are set then not?
02:27 hdl yes.
02:27 thd Mordazy: there is your answer
02:27 hdl (not based on computers though, but on librarian branch)
02:28 thd hdl: ok that was my suggestion for a method
02:30 thd hdl: a couple of days ago kados suspected he found code in addbiblio.pl that could lead to data loss if independent branches was set.
02:31 thd hdl: it was not obvious to me but he has familiarity with the code
02:32 hdl thd: Must have been corrected.
02:32 thd hdl:m in the past 2 days?
02:32 hdl I have seen it on bugzilla...
02:33 hdl yes.
02:33 hdl Or was it not what he reported ?
02:34 thd hdl: I am not certain that kados was confident about it being a real problem
02:35 thd hdl: he just happened to notice something which did not look correct when tracing a problem for adding items
02:35 thd hdl: is there any reason that changing the size of framework columns should cause a problem?
02:37 thd hdl: that was the problem we were trying to trace but did not find until last night
02:38 thd hdl: unless I goofed I notice that some tables have VAR for framework code and some use CHAR
02:39 thd hdl: if the framework code were smaller than the maximum allowed value in CHAR could the value returned have trailing spaces?
02:47 Mordazy hdl: what if independant branches are set? Is there still one borrower database? or each branch has its own borrower db?
02:48 Mordazy that`s the problem
02:50 thd Mordazy: there is only one database really but independent branches is not extensively documented and not a very old feature. It dates from about a year ago
02:50 Mordazy I`ve been told that independant branches have independant _everything_
02:51 thd Mordazy: but it is not the same as multiple installations of Koha
02:53 Mordazy thd: I know. The problem is that I have no DB yet to conduct proper testing...
02:54 thd Mordazy: separate installations would be extra independent and require MySQL databases for each branch
02:56 thd Mordazy: there are instructions for installing Koha on http://www.kohadocs.org
02:57 Mordazy yes, but does "intependant" mean in this case that also borrower will have to register in each branch and will have separate accounts with transactions and payments for each branch?
02:58 thd Mordazy: just remember that Koha is on http://savanah.nongnu.org/ not sourceforge
02:59 thd Mordazy: unfortunately, I do not know that
03:00 Mordazy brb
03:00 thd Mordazy: not many libraries actually use the independent branches feature
03:14 hdl join #koha-fr
03:49 Mordazy I have Koha installed, localized and functional, but have serious problems with database conversion
03:50 Mordazy now we`re in consortium using Aleph ILS, which screwed our records totally
03:51 Mordazy our previous LS was using non-relational, text-based databases, so now getting anything out it is a nightmare
03:54 mason so your database conversion problems are between your previous LS and Aleph?
03:58 Mordazy no
03:59 Mordazy mason: the guys in the central library converted our old record into Aleph
03:59 mason uhuh
03:59 Mordazy but since anyone can change our records
03:59 Mordazy our database is full of garbage
04:00 Mordazy cleaning it is almost impossible
04:00 Mordazy so we want to use our old databases and add later additions made in Aleph
04:01 Mordazy but my knowledge is not enough yet to do it, so I`m waiting for a friend doing it
04:02 Mordazy Aleph is an Israel-made system working on Oracle
04:02 mason gotcha
04:03 Mordazy expensive, not user friendly and looking like windows 1.0
04:03 mason so, is your current DB garbage coz someone did a bad conversion?
04:04 mason or because the staff are updating the bib info willy-nilly?
04:04 Mordazy that too
04:04 Mordazy there are 8 libraries in the consortium, in a couple of years will be 40
04:05 mason wow, thats big
04:05 Mordazy but the whole thing is made without basic concept
04:05 mason right, so not too much consorting at ther moment...
04:05 Mordazy ANYBODY in the consortium can not only view, but also CHANGE our records
04:06 mason ah, thats a powerful feature :(
04:06 mason right i now understand your previous questions about branches.
04:07 Mordazy in addition, there`s nobody in charge, nobody to take full control of anything
04:07 Mordazy I don`t want KOHA for consortium
04:07 Mordazy my lib wants to escape from that damn thing before it collapses
04:08 Mordazy I want KOHA for my library ONLY
04:08 mason right, or at least a plan b...
04:08 Mordazy but my library consists of 6 branches
04:08 Mordazy that`s a plan a :) staying in the consortium is z, maybe :)
04:09 Mordazy that consortium is not an organisation
04:10 Mordazy is a DISorganisation :D
04:10 Mordazy nothing really works
04:10 mason chris has lots of knowledge about branches customisation
04:11 Mordazy I could spend couple of days writing of the central library screw-ups :)
04:11 Mordazy but it`s not the point
04:11 mason we usually end up doing little mods for each of our libraries...
04:11 Mordazy chris, you say...
04:11 Mordazy when is he active, usually?
04:11 mason as they all handle issuing rules differently
04:12 mason hmm its 9:15pm here in new zealand
04:12 Mordazy issuing rules are notr a big problem
04:12 Mordazy I`d just create branch-specific items
04:15 Mordazy but there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult Fiction.
04:15 Mordazy prolonged=renewed
04:16 mason right, so your issue is more about access-control of bib records , defined by user groups
04:17 mason so sally from Multimedia, can issue or update, only view bibs from her branch...
04:17 mason s/can/cant
04:18 mason so sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch...
04:18 mason .
04:18 Mordazy she could view items from other branches, but couldn`t change it
04:18 mason that makes more sense :)
04:18 mason snap
04:18 Mordazy that doesn`t matter
04:19 Mordazy but exactly that`s what I want
04:19 mason it sounds like a useful feature for an ILS
04:20 Mordazy "sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch"
04:21 Mordazy it would be nice, if she could eventually switch to "full view" and see ALL items borrowed by certain user
04:21 Mordazy [see ONLY :))]
04:21 mason i imagine something like the unix file permissions idea, would work ok for this too
04:22 Mordazy the problem is that I have less than two months to have system running for tests and another one for testing
04:23 Mordazy honestly, I`m surprised that something as useful is not implemented in Koha yet
04:24 mason your situation is uniquw, because the default behaviour is to restrict staff access
04:25 mason i think that the feature hasnt happened in koha yet, because there hasnt been a need. (yet)
04:25 Mordazy you know, every branch in our lib has ITS OWN circulation desk
04:26 Mordazy there`s no common circulation desk for all branches
04:26 Mordazy but wait
04:26 Mordazy What Branch Categories actually DO?
04:27 mason ah, branches are in the same building?
04:28 Mordazy mason: no, 3 are in the same building, 3 are in other locations
04:28 mason ah, ok
04:29 mason i have to head out about now :(
04:29 Mordazy mason: thanks anyway :)
04:30 mason but , lurk about in the next few days and get some better info from other in #koha, who know more about these parts of the system than i do
04:31 Mordazy ok, thakns
04:31 mason ive got a feeling that koha has restrictions that may work close to what you are looking for
04:31 Mordazy thanks
04:31 Mordazy me too, my lib is not the only one that has distant branches :)
04:32 mason righo , im off , see you online :)
04:32 Mordazy see you!
04:48 Mordazy okay...
04:48 Mordazy can anyone explain me, what Branch Categories actually do?
04:49 Mordazy what`s the difference if I assign all branches to one category, or will have a few categories?
04:49 Mordazy brb
06:29 Mordazy re
07:24 Mordazy does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do?
07:26 Mordazy does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do?
07:43 Mordazy hi owen
07:44 owen Hi Mordazy. Have we met before?
07:44 Mordazy probably not, I`m new here
07:47 Mordazy I`m really impressed with the work you`ve done
07:48 Mordazy I like Koha very much, but not sure if it suits our needs...
07:48 Mordazy would you spare me a few minutes?
07:48 owen I'll answer if I can
07:49 Mordazy thanks
07:50 Mordazy is it possible to restrict staff from different branches from issuing / returning / renewing items that belong to other branches?
07:50 owen Ah, I recognize your question from the mailing list
07:51 Mordazy I mean, Adult Fiction handles only their items / transactions, but can`t change anything in other transactions
07:51 Mordazy yes, this is crucial for me
07:51 owen I'm not an expert on the branch restrictions in Koha, because my library doesn't use them. It may be possible to restrict issing and renewing, but I'm less sure about returning.
07:52 Mordazy thanks :)
07:56 Mordazy we have 3 local branches and 3 in other locations, not to mention all branch managers are rather teritorial types :)
07:56 Mordazy territorial :)
07:58 owen Okay, my quick test indicates that Koha doesn't quite fit your needs: With the 'IndependentBranches' setting turned ON, I was prevented from issuing a book that belonged to another branch. But I wasn't prevented from renewing or from returning items from another branch.
07:58 Mordazy ouch :(
07:58 owen it seems that those changes would be a logical extension of the current IndependentBranches functionality
07:59 Mordazy the question is when :(
07:59 owen Right... You'd have to wait an indeterminate amount of time or pay for the changes to be made
08:00 owen The core developers are working on numerous upgrade issues, so it's a bad time to ask for volunteers
08:00 Mordazy unfortunately, I need a fast solution :(
08:02 Mordazy by the way, does IndependentBranches also make members to register themselves separately to all branches?
08:03 owen Good question. As far as I know the IndependentBranches settings relate to the Koha Librarian, not to the Koha User
08:03 Mordazy or is there still common database and accounts?
08:03 owen There is definitely not a separate database
08:04 Mordazy so, even with Independent.. turned on, a member registered in one branch is automatically registered in all?
08:05 Mordazy http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/brama.jpg
08:05 Mordazy http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/hol1.jpg
08:06 owen Yes, there is always one common member database for all branches. And the IndependentBranches setting doesn't seem to prevent members of one branch from borrowing at another.
08:06 Mordazy pics of my library :)
08:06 owen Wow! Beautiful!
08:07 owen Reminds me very much of Prague, which I've visited several times
08:07 Mordazy ...but rather non-functional :)
08:09 Mordazy Wroclaw is current cultural centre in Poland
08:14 Mordazy brb
08:16 owen Mordazy, I've just been looking over your emails again. It's hard to see how Koha could work for you as-is without separate installations at each branch... but then you'd lose the common catalogue (which I assume is a requirement)
08:16 Mordazy Swidnica is about 500km from Krakow
08:17 Mordazy owen: my earlier emails were rather a bunch ow wishes :)
08:17 Mordazy the really crucial thing is that branch separation issuing / returning / renewing
08:18 Mordazy I would handle the rest
08:19 Mordazy ow=of :)
08:20 owen Then I'm afraid you're back to needing to hire a developer :(
08:21 Mordazy that`s the problem
08:22 Mordazy as I mentioned, we`re working on exit strategy from a consortium that indesputably is going to collapse in next two years max.
08:23 Mordazy if we haven`t a working ILS in April, we`ll have to stay in it for another year
08:24 Mordazy ...and pay big bucks for nothing :) :(
08:24 owen If there are big bucks involved, couldn't that help justify the hiring of a developer?
08:25 Mordazy it` Poland, man :)
08:25 Mordazy it`s a country, where tigers run freely on the streets
08:25 owen ? :)
08:25 Mordazy and the cops shoot the veterinary :)
08:26 kados paul: you around?
08:26 Mordazy in other words, it`s a plase that NOTHING works as it should.
08:26 Mordazy uch
08:26 Mordazy in other words, it`s a place where NOTHING works as it should.
08:26 kados hehe
08:26 kados yea, that's true
08:28 Mordazy a bandit with three sentences for various crimes is a prime minister here :)
08:28 kados really?
08:28 dewey really are quite different
08:28 Mordazy actually, vice-prime minister
08:28 owen dewey: forget really
08:28 dewey owen: I forgot really
08:29 owen dewey: Poland is a country where tigers run freely on the streets
08:29 dewey i haven't a clue, owen
08:29 Mordazy you know
08:30 Mordazy that saying about tigers running is kinda true
08:30 Mordazy a couple years ago a tiger escaped from a zoo
08:31 paul kados, i'm here
08:31 paul (compiling zebra & yaz & zoom on btoumi computer)
08:31 Mordazy a veterinary was sent for
08:32 Mordazy he managed to get close to the tiger
08:32 Mordazy gave him some meat wit tranquilizer
08:32 Mordazy with
08:32 Mordazy ...and the same moment one of the cops panicked...
08:32 Mordazy ...and shot...
08:32 Mordazy ...the vet.
08:35 Mordazy the sad thing is that most thing go such way here :(
08:36 Mordazy anyway
08:36 Mordazy I`m very sad that Koha hasn`t more complete branch separation :(
08:37 owen Mordazy, I think that requires the dreaded word: consortium
08:37 Mordazy not in Poland, unfortunately
08:38 Mordazy here that word is a synonym for rip-off :)
08:39 Mordazy if you`re not bored, I`ll tell you why our current consortium came to existence in the first place
08:40 Mordazy quide amusing, but also scary story :)
08:40 Mordazy first of all, the current central library was about to be closed
08:40 Mordazy so they came up with idea of making a consortium
08:41 Mordazy to make as many libraries as possible dependant on them
08:41 Mordazy they made a big noise about common database..
08:41 Mordazy common policies, easier way to get grants from gov`t and so on
08:42 Mordazy so, our previous manager signed in without thinking
08:42 Mordazy [I wasn`t working here yet]
08:42 Mordazy ...and many others followed
08:42 Mordazy the central lib picked Aleph
08:43 Mordazy VERY expensive, by the way
08:43 Mordazy so they could afford only a couple of licences
08:44 Mordazy of course, as new libraries joined, they had to buy licences for themselves
08:44 Mordazy or course, they also could afford less than they needed
08:45 Mordazy in the meantime the central catalogue appeared to be rather nightmare than blessing
08:45 Mordazy anyone in consortium can viev and CHANGE our records, so you can imagine the mess
08:45 toins kados: you around ?
08:46 toins oh yeah !
08:46 Mordazy ...and we discovered, that we hardly can work on our 8 licences we paid for
08:47 Mordazy 4-5, 6, but never eight
08:47 toins do you know this error : Connecting...error = System (lower-layer) error: Connection refused
08:47 Mordazy aha, the server for the whole thing is in the central lib
08:47 Mordazy we quickly discovered two things
08:47 Mordazy 1) our licences are NOT bound to our computers
08:48 Mordazy but they "float" between libs in a common pool
08:48 Mordazy 2) central lib always uses more licences than they paid for
08:49 Mordazy two-three times more, to be exact :)
08:49 kados toins: I don't know it
08:50 Mordazy of course the answer to any and all of our complaints was "it can`t be done"
08:50 Mordazy do I have to say more, why we`re desperately looking for an exit from this mess? :)
08:51 kados Mordazy: what's your timeline for leaving the consortium
08:51 Mordazy 7-8 months at best.
08:52 Mordazy i count that I`d hace system running until new year
08:52 Mordazy have
08:53 Mordazy another 3 months for testing
08:54 Mordazy I hoped that Koha will suit our basic needs right of the box
08:56 Mordazy I could handle the cosmetics
08:56 Mordazy and would also learn a lot :)
08:57 Mordazy `hokay
08:57 kados don't create your own set of templates :-)
08:58 Mordazy have to go
08:58 Mordazy yeah, I know :)
08:58 kados Mordazy: bye
08:58 Mordazy I`ll be back in couple of hours
08:59 Mordazy thanks for answers, thanks a lot!
08:59 Mordazy see you!
09:02 owen Poor Mordazy...keeps hoping someone will give him a different answer
09:02 kados yea
09:03 btoumi oué
09:12 owen_ Is there an estimate for the next release of rel_2_2?
09:18 kados is paul really in bed?
09:18 kados paul_bed: sleeping on the job? :-)
09:19 btoumi no
09:19 kados owen: we didn't solidify a release date yesterday,
09:19 btoumi it works witth san op today
09:19 kados owe
09:19 kados owen: erp
09:19 kados owen: keyboard acting up
09:19 btoumi kados do u want to ask something to him
09:20 btoumi ?
09:20 kados just wondering if he saw owen's post above
09:20 kados owen: do we have a bug report filed for that one?
09:20 kados btoumi: also, wanted to ask him whether we need to file a bug report for the known bug of missing 090 fields
09:20 kados btoumi: even though we don't know why it happens
09:21 kados btoumi: we know that it does happen
09:23 btoumi btoumi: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion
09:23 btoumi kados: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion
09:24 kados btoumi: nevermind
09:24 kados btoumi: I will ask him when he is back
09:24 btoumi kados: ok
09:45 owen Heh.... from Bugzilla: "I will fix this tomorrow" 2003-06-02 :)