Time  Nick     Message
12:35 btoumi   kados: are u around?
12:35 tumer    btoumi:is there a meeting tonight?
12:36 btoumi   tumer: hi tumer how are u tonight?
12:37 btoumi   tumer: yes i konw
12:37 tumer    do you know is there a meeting?
12:37 kados    there is a meeting at GMT 20:00
12:38 kados    I think that's in about 40 minutes, right?
12:38 tumer    btoumi:i have been very busy lately, how are you in general?
12:39 tumer    are you sure about this timing?
12:40 btoumi   hi kados:
12:40 tumer    i think 2 hrs 40 minutes to GMT 20:00
12:40 kados    you're right
12:41 tumer    see you than, i am working on acquisitions module
12:42 btoumi   kados: when u have time can i ask u some details about koha server needs
12:42 kados    btoumi: now is a good time
12:42 kados    hehe
12:44 btoumi   kados: sorry i ve lost my connexion
12:44 kados    btoumi: now is a good time
12:44 dewey    i already had it that way, kados.
12:45 btoumi   ok i think so but i u check ure email we can see about this tommorow
12:45 kados    btoumi: sure
12:46 btoumi   like u want u decide u are the boss ;=)
12:46 kados    now is a good time for me
12:46 btoumi   ok now
12:47 btoumi   can i have some details about network materials u use in ure library?
12:47 kados    network materials?
12:47 btoumi   sorry for my english
12:47 kados    (also, I don't work for a library anymore :-))
12:47 btoumi   ok
12:47 kados    (I work at liblime.com now)
12:47 kados    I can tell you how we have NPL set up
12:48 kados    there is one gateway router to the internet ... which is provided by the state
12:49 kados    then an internal router does NAT on one interface for the LAN
12:49 btoumi   what sort of server do u have for koha
12:49 btoumi   ?
12:49 kados    the other interal interface provides a DMZ for all the servers
12:49 kados    the current Koha server is quite old
12:50 kados    it is a 99MHZ Pentium with about 2 gigs of RAM
12:50 kados    900MHZ I mean
12:50 kados    and 7200RPM drives (slow)
12:50 kados    the new server is much nicer
12:50 kados    it's the one that zoomopac.liblime.com is running on
12:51 kados    it has 4 gigs of ram and 10000RPM drives, and a 2GHZ processor
12:51 btoumi   do u have different serveur?
12:51 btoumi   for example  one server for mysql
12:51 kados    not currently
12:52 btoumi   ok
12:52 kados    in the past we did something similar
12:52 kados    we had three servers set up:
12:52 kados    with mysql replication
12:52 kados    one server was master (all writes)
12:52 kados    two were slaves (read only)
12:53 kados    and all search requests were performed on the slaves
12:53 kados    it worked quite well
12:54 btoumi   your server works only with koha or u have another web site or other applications
12:54 btoumi   ?
12:54 kados    only KOha
12:54 btoumi   ok
12:54 kados    how many records do you have in the collection>?
12:55 btoumi   ~250000 notice
12:55 kados    ahh, yes
12:55 kados    for that size you will need to either:
12:55 kados    1. use 2.4 (with zebra)
12:55 kados    2. do mysql replication
12:55 kados    or else it will be quite slow
12:56 btoumi   but i think we work with only one server
12:56 btoumi   we discuss about this with paul
12:57 btoumi   and he said me that we can choose quadriprocessor 8 go ram 4 scsi disc
12:59 btoumi   i think it's good solution
12:59 btoumi   peraph's the best
13:00 kados    I don't think throwing more hardware will help much
13:00 kados    it's also necessary to fine tune mysql
13:01 kados    and even then, there's only so much you can do
13:01 kados    the problem is one of design
13:01 kados    in the code
13:01 kados    and the db
13:01 kados    which is why we choose Zebra in the first place :-)
13:02 btoumi   yep
13:03 tumer    btoumi:we have more than 200K records at the momemt, with zebra even one server is very satisfactory
13:04 tumer    have zebra running on a differnt disk than mysql and it works fine
13:04 btoumi   tumer: uthink that separate zebra and mysql is a good think
13:05 btoumi   in different disk
13:05 tumer    yes i think its better to have them running on different disks
13:05 btoumi   ok it's a good thinks
13:06 btoumi   it's a solution
13:06 btoumi   tumer: do u have windows server or linux server?
13:06 tumer    windows server
13:06 tumer    never managed to get linux running
13:07 btoumi   ok
13:07 tumer    and kados did not give me space to try on his server:(
13:07 btoumi   ;=)
13:08 tumer    with zebra whether you are searching 200k records or 100k its the same
13:08 btoumi   ok
13:09 btoumi   but zebra use lot of memory ?
13:09 tumer    but we fixed opacs to return 10 results per page
13:09 tumer    no zebra uses very small memory
13:10 btoumi   ah ok
13:10 tumer    about 36 Mb at maximumum
13:10 tumer    zebra search is miliseconds, retrieval is slower
13:11 btoumi   we need only 36 Mb RAM  for zebra u think
13:11 btoumi   tumer:
13:11 tumer    for indexing at first you need as much as you can give
13:12 tumer    but for server i checked it even at busy times it never recahes 36Mb limit
13:12 btoumi   but zebra don't indexing all the time?
13:13 tumer    i mean indexing the first time (all the records)
13:13 btoumi   yes i think so in migration part
13:13 tumer    firdt time indexing about 200Mb is very good
13:14 btoumi   we take a 6go or 8 go ram i think
13:15 tumer    we currently use 2Ghz pentium 1Gb memory (2 will be better) with RAID SCSI disks
13:16 tumer    kados:have some time?
13:17 btoumi   ok thanks tumer: and kados for yr answer
13:17 tumer    see you tonight btoumi
13:17 btoumi   peraphs i ask u something tommorow
13:17 tumer    staying for IRC?
13:17 btoumi   yes
13:18 kados    tumer: not at the moment, I'm headed out to get lunch
13:18 kados    tumer: I'll be back in 30 minutes or so
13:18 btoumi   good lunch kados
13:18 tumer    k, acquisitions questions later than
13:18 kados    pauls' better for acquisitions anyway
13:18 kados    and hdl
13:18 kados    maybe add your questions to the meeting agenda?
13:18 tumer    but they are probably asleep
13:19 kados    no ... they will be at the meeting
14:30 kados    :-)
14:31 tumer[A] owen ++ for template
14:37 paul     I try to beat tumer as the largest commiter in a few minuts.
14:37 paul     but I won't succed i'm "afraid" ;-)
14:37 kados    paul: in what branch?
14:37 tumer    paul:i am having problems with rel_3 acquisitions does it work and with which templates do you know
14:38 paul     i've removed opac/default in rel_2_2
14:38 paul     tumer: you should ask toins, but PROG templates are supposed to work.
14:38 paul     although I did not test them at all
14:38 tumer    well they do not, actually acquisitions dont work any working branch?
14:39 alaurin  hi everybody
14:40 paul     tumer : i don't understand
14:40 paul     hi alaurin
14:40 btoumi   hi all
14:40 chris    morning
14:41 tumer    paul:do you know any rel_? that acquisitions properly work?
14:41 paul     hello chris (not really morning here)
14:41 paul     rel_2 works
14:41 chris    7.41 am here :)
14:42 tumer    22:41 in Cyprus
14:42 paul     9:41PM here
14:42 alaurin  tumer is winning
14:42 chris    :-)
14:45 tumer    which country is it that uses GST, Brits use VAT Fench use TAV (i think) we use KDV who is GST?
14:46 tumer    toins_:hi my man!!
14:46 paul     france is TVA
14:46 toins_   hi tumer
14:46 dewey    rumour has it hi tumer is still strugling
14:46 tumer    sorry paul my broken french
14:48 tumer    also acquisitions sets the beginning of budgets or end of budgets to end of June (where for us its January, Brits April and so on)
14:48 paul     the budgets are as you want tumer.
14:48 tumer    toins are you here?
14:48 paul     in France, we have jan => dec
14:48 chris    nz is GST
14:48 chris    and australia
14:49 toins_   tumer: yep
14:49 tumer    well i have found code that budgets are defined to end in July unless you set it
14:50 tumer    toins: i cannot get rel_3 acquisitions to work have you tested it all?
14:51 toins    tumer: normally all should be almost good on rel_3 acquisitions....
14:52 toins    i can't test now, this computer hasen't koha installed
14:52 tumer    let me rephrase that: is it the prog templates that supposed to work cause some modules seem to work with default templates and some not
14:52 toins    rel_3_0 can only work with prog template
14:52 toins    default & npl template has been deleted on this branch
14:53 tumer    well i am still struggling as dewey says
14:53 toins    heh
14:53 toins    e
14:54 kados    T-MINUS 5 minutes to Koha Meeting
14:54 toins    tumer: what's your problem exactly ?
14:54 toins    prog template aren't good enough for you ? ;-)
14:55 tumer    well i add an order but when i search for it i do not get it back so i cannot go further than there
14:55 kados    MEETING AGENDA: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=agendandnotes06sep13
14:55 thd      tumer: can you find the order in the DB the directly?
14:57 paul     tumer : just create a strong & stable API for catalogue, and we will take care of acquisition module on rel_3_0, with prog templates.
14:59 tumer    i can find things in DB directly
14:59 thd      tumer: and they have invoice numbers saved?
14:59 tumer    paul:Catalogue API is finished , works with prog templates
15:00 tumer    thd: i have modifieds it to save invoice number
15:00 kados    everyone ready to start the meeting?
15:00 kados    roll call first ... who's here?
15:00 tumer    yep
15:00 chris    me
15:00 alaurin  yes
15:00 paul     (and tumer seems to have started ;-) )
15:00 tumer    me 2
15:00 kados    hehe
15:01 kados    cool ... I'd say that quorum
15:01 kados    so the agenda's pretty slim
15:01 kados    anyone have anything they'd like to add before we get started?
15:01 thd      maybe if my system s finished thrashing
15:01 paul     yes, but the content quite huge !
15:01 kados    paul: true :-)
15:02 paul     just some words about 2.2.6
15:02 paul     (to add to the agenda)
15:02 paul     & maybe we could start with this.
15:02 kados    ok, that can be in the rel_2_2 section
15:02 kados    sure let's begin, take us away paul
15:03 paul     i've installed 2.2.6RC3 (unofficial RC) to 1 of my library.
15:03 paul     they reported me 2 unimarc specific problems, and nothing more.
15:03 kados    good news
15:03 paul     i've worked on bugzilla, to clean all bugs declared affected to me.
15:03 kados    paul++
15:03 paul     I can see 33 bugs still open & related to rel_2_2
15:04 paul     only 7 being blo or critical.
15:04 kados    so maybe we should schedule a bug squash meeting?
15:04 paul     and all of them waiting for an answer from you or chris.
15:04 kados    ok
15:04 chris    hmm, ill look through those after the meeting and put in answers
15:04 paul     toins sended a mail to koha-devel, but you didn't answer
15:05 kados    which email?
15:05 chris    hmm i dont recall that
15:05 toins    i'have writed a sum up on koha-devel
15:05 toins    kados: "about bugs in rel_2_2"
15:05 chris    yeah i didnt notice it either
15:05 kados    ahh ... I see now
15:05 chris    whats the subject line?
15:06 kados    "about bugs in rel_2_2"
15:06 kados    sent on Sept 06
15:06 kados    hehe
15:06 chris    not even joking :)
15:06 chris    all the way back from 1999
15:06 kados    cool
15:07 chris    toins/paul: ill put comments on the bugs after the meeting
15:07 kados    same here
15:07 chris    so be ready for you tomorrow france time
15:07 toins    chris: ok
15:07 paul     ok.
15:07 paul     those bugs fixed or not fixed, do you agree for a 2.2.6 official release
15:07 paul     ?
15:07 paul     (with proper release notes warning for unfixed problems) ?
15:08 kados    yes, so long as the relase notes clearly define what we know is broken
15:08 paul     ok, then we all agree, so i've nothing to add to 2.2.6
15:08 thd      I have a concern about competing concepts of blocking bugs
15:09 kados    thd: what is your perception of this topic?
15:09 thd      some people namely kados are considering bugs blocking if it blocks there ability to market their services yet the program functions
15:09 kados    (paul, since acquisitions is broken, that should be acknoledged as well in release notes)
15:10 thd      kados: I think we should have some additional value to indicate blocked for marketing
15:10 kados    hmmm
15:10 kados    to me a blocker is:
15:11 kados    1. any 500 or 404 error and a link that leads to such
15:11 kados    2. a function that doesn't work as advertised (like acquisitions in rel_2_2)
15:11 kados    3. anything causing data loss
15:12 kados    I think all of the bugs I've marked as a blocker are one of those three
15:12 paul     for 1 & 2, i would add => and that can't be done in another way with Koha.
15:12 paul     but I know kados & me disagree here
15:12 kados    so I'm not sure I 100% agree with thd on my motives :-)
15:12 tumer    yes but i think any official release should not have 404 or 500 and just give notice
15:13 thd      kados: I agree that paul's concept of blocking as the traditional concept
15:13 kados    so just to be clear on the point that paul and I disagree on
15:13 kados    paul thinks that it's ok as long as there is a workaround somewhere else
15:13 kados    paul: is that a fair characterization?
15:13 tumer    i agree with kados
15:14 chris    speaking of 500 errors
15:14 paul     kados: yes.
15:14 chris    we should make a 500.html page, and set apache to use that for 500 errors
15:14 thd      kados: I do not impute your motives of course, and I understand that users may perceive most anything as blocking including being troubled by colour choice in the default CSS
15:14 chris    that says things like check the error logs, report bugs at bugs.koha.org etc
15:15 kados    so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug?
15:15 toins    chris: i think 500.html is already done
15:15 kados    chris: I think we have that already
15:15 chris    hmm but not set by default?
15:15 chris    or does it do that for 2.2.6?
15:15 kados    maybe just for 2.2.6 ... /me isn't sure
15:15 toins    currently a ".htaccess" is used to redirect when an error occured
15:15 chris    ahh
15:15 kados    ahh, so you have to have that enabled in apache chris
15:15 chris    yeah
15:16 kados    IIRC it's not by default in debian
15:16 chris    might be better to do the redirect in the koha-httpd.conf
15:16 thd      Is there no way to add an additional blocked for kados reasons 1 and 2 as options
15:16 thd      ?
15:16 kados    so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug?
15:16 kados    I think we all agree that 'blocker' means 'can't do a release until it's fixed', right?
15:16 chris    yes
15:16 thd      kados: can we provide multiple types of blocking bugs in bugzilla?
15:16 paul     yes
15:17 kados    thd: that's not quite the issue here ... it's more that paul and I disagree over what should 'bock' a release
15:17 chris    i think if something is known to 500 error
15:17 kados    'block' even
15:17 chris    but if it can be done another way
15:17 chris    then the link to the 500 error page should be removed
15:18 owen     Unless paul (or someone) can provide an example of an acceptable 500 error, I'm inclined to agree that any 500 error is a blocker.
15:18 chris    so that you can only do it the other way
15:18 chris    does that sound reasonable?
15:18 kados    same with 404 errors I assume
15:18 chris    yes
15:19 chris    if we know it doesnt work .. why point people at it
15:19 tumer    what is an aceptable 500 error as owen says?
15:19 kados    chris: sounds good to me
15:19 tumer    404 or 500 is "blocker" right?
15:19 kados    tumer: that's what we're arguing about :-)
15:19 paul     for example, something that is usually reached from somewhere, but can be reached from somewhere else.
15:20 paul     example (existing in 2.2.4 iirc)
15:20 paul     modifying a patron.
15:20 chris    404 is easy, tahts always a blocker
15:20 paul     you usually do that from members => search => view detail => modify
15:20 tumer    if you know it than correct it, if nobody noticed than its pririty bug when reported
15:20 paul     you could do it from :
15:20 paul     circulation => edit member
15:21 paul     BUT it was broken in 2.2.4
15:21 tumer    priority i mean
15:21 paul     (not a 404, but something that did not work)
15:21 paul     thus you could do :
15:21 paul     circulation => view member => edit
15:21 paul     just 1 more clic
15:21 kados    does anyone agree with paul that the example he cited above is not a blocker?
15:21 paul     not blocking for me, blocking for kados
15:21 owen     The thing about blockers...they're only blockers if you know about them
15:22 tumer    not blocking for programmers blocking for users
15:22 owen     If we had known about that bug, I would have considered it a blocker.
15:22 paul     but it's NOT blocking users. They have 2 workaround, one of them having just 1 more clic !
15:22 owen     True...
15:22 tumer    yes but they do not know that
15:22 paul     I agree it's stupid, silly, and marketing unproductive.
15:22 tumer    and its frustating
15:22 paul     but it's not blocking
15:22 kados    it's about perception of the software
15:22 chris    thats not a blocker if you remove the broken way
15:23 owen     I remember seeing a good definition of the bug categories a while back, I wish I could remember where I saw it
15:23 kados    it blocks the user from feeling like Koha is stable
15:23 paul     in this case, it's easier to fix it, in CVS. but releasing just for this is using a rocket bomb to kill a fly (imho)
15:24 tumer    paul: if you know the bug why leave it? If you dont its not a blocjer until reported
15:24 paul     however, I 100% agree, i maybe rock as developper, but I suck as vendor...
15:24 paul     it's not a matter of leaving it, it's a matter of official releasing.
15:24 owen     What do you know... there's definitions on koha.org: http://www.koha.org/community/bugzilla.html
15:25 thd_     kados: I think for paul it is actually a similar problem as you
15:25 chris    under those definitiions pauls above isnt actually a blocker
15:26 kados    up till now we've been doing releases every 4-6 months
15:26 chris    BUT
15:26 kados    if we were doing monthly releases we could do as defined on that page
15:26 chris    the difference is that bugs are quite different before and after a release
15:26 tumer    well at leat an official release should confirm taht at least one of the templates is working
15:26 thd_     paul: do I understand correctly that your users expect a reasonably consistent release schedule
15:26 thd_     ?
15:26 paul     having a monthly release is too much for most libraries.
15:26 chris    i think the confusion is, there are 2 different types of bugs
15:27 chris    1/ Bugs reported leading up to a release
15:27 chris    2/ Bugs reported just after a release
15:27 kados    yep
15:27 chris    pauls example above is a blocker in category 1
15:27 chris    its not in category 2
15:27 paul     chris: ++
15:27 chris    ie as he said, we wouldnt do a release just to fix that
15:28 paul     maybe we could have a wiki page to point every bug we know and that will be fixed in next release ?
15:28 thd_     chris:what is the difference for those 2 types of bugs?
15:28 tumer    together with workorounds
15:28 paul     (but not in the next days)
15:28 russ     paul: cant you make a release in bugzilla and use a bugzilla report?
15:29 paul     bugzilla is not considered as very friendly by most librarians.
15:29 owen     Have fun everyone, I'll catch up in the logs
15:29 chris    any bugs that are 500 or 404 errors leading up to a release are blockers and should be fixed before the release
15:29 paul     but a tinyurl bugzilla could be enough
15:29 tumer    chris++
15:30 thd_     chris: how do before and after release bugs differ qualitatively?
15:30 kados    I think it would make sense to do a release with no known blocker bugs
15:30 chris    yes
15:30 kados    then, maybe a month or two later, do another release
15:31 kados    with nothing but bugfixes
15:31 kados    (maybe language translations too)
15:31 chris    yes
15:31 tumer    not arelease but may be just an update of debugged
15:32 kados    tumer: do you mean a patch?
15:32 tumer    yes
15:32 toins    tumer: so a then a ?
15:33 tumer    yes
15:33 kados    we've never done patches before
15:33 kados    I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users
15:33 tumer    and a tar containing only the debugged bits
15:33 paul     I agree.
15:33 thd      chris: did you mean that user reported bugs are often qualitatively different to bugs already known to developers?
15:34 kados    paul: what do you agree with?
15:34 tumer    any new release is quite nerve recking when installing a patch may not be
15:34 chris    no i meant that a 404 error reported after a release, with 2 workarounds isnt enough to trigger another immediate release .. but it certainly should be fixed before the next release .. if it was discovered before the release, it would block it
15:34 kados    chris: I agree
15:34 paul     I agree with : "I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users"
15:35 kados    paul: ok
15:35 kados    paul: do you agree with chris?
15:35 paul     yes, 100%
15:35 kados    ok, great ... so we all agree :-)
15:35 tumer    well i am not sure about patches feeling
15:35 paul     good news !
15:35 thd      patches are only difficult to apply if they are difficult to apply
15:36 kados    tumer: I like the patches idea, maybe we can explore it in the future
15:36 chris    we could release patches, and see
15:36 paul     so we could go to head/rel_3_0/dev_week questions ?
15:36 kados    sure
15:36 paul     hdl is not here ?
15:36 kados    I can start
15:36 kados    as you all know, I've been working on dev_week quite a lot, mainly with searching
15:37 kados    there is a new search API which is not entirely committed but is much simpler than the old zebra one
15:37 kados    and more completely uses CCL as a query language
15:38 kados    it also takes many things out of the template to allow a librarian to customize how a search looks and works
15:38 kados    only one thing prevents me from committing
15:38 kados    a way to translate the labels of search points into other languages
15:38 thd      kados: do you plan to integrate the improved features into your old Zebra search as well?
15:38 tumer    ?
15:39 kados    so I am eager for ideas for how to do that
15:39 kados    thd: no
15:39 tumer    kados what translation
15:39 kados    so for example, take a look at zoomopac.liblime.com
15:39 thd      kados: you had a fine idea during dev_week
15:39 paul     maybe you could commit as it is & looking in the code will give us some ideas
15:39 kados    click on advanced search
15:40 kados    right now all of the search options are hard-coded as hash references
15:40 kados    easy to convert to database table entries
15:40 kados    but I wanted to agree on a data structure before doing that
15:41 thd      kados: so it would be trivial to variablise them all
15:41 tumer    kados:i am loosing you
15:41 tumer    what is hard coded
15:42 kados    for instance
15:42 kados    in the advanced search
15:42 kados    there is:
15:42 kados    Keyword, Author, Author Phrase, etc.
15:42 chris    first off, let me say that looks really good
15:43 kados    all of those options are hardcoded as references to arrays of hashes and such so that in the template you don't have any of the variables stored
15:43 chris    the only problem the libraries i work with are going to have with it is
15:44 chris    http://zoomopac.liblime.com/search?&qf=it&do=Search&r=1
15:44 tumer    kados:i have a similar one in head but those are just labels read from a user defined table
15:44 tumer    so they can be in any language
15:44 kados    tumer: yes, but that approach doesn't work with multiple language opacs
15:44 chris    is the repeating biblios
15:45 thd      chris: the inspirational model has been very well play tested but kados has some improvements you cannot guess until you perform a search using words often considered stop words on some systems
15:45 kados    tumer: because when you switch languages the strings aren't translated
15:45 tumer    yes but marc_labels are also teh same
15:45 chris    apart from that (and unfortunately thats a big thing for them) it rocks
15:45 kados    chris: yes, but 2.4 won't have that ability
15:45 chris    yep
15:45 kados    chris: it's too MARC_centric
15:46 kados    tumer: exactly
15:46 chris    will be good for our libraries that only have 1 or 2 copies of each thing... they wont notice
15:46 chris    but the other ones will have to wait for 3.0 or 3.2
15:46 kados    so we need a way to translate labels stored in the database
15:46 tumer    we have multi lingual opac which only returns english labels for MARC details pages same problem?
15:47 kados    so the problem is duplicated in the MARC details page already
15:47 kados    as tumer points out
15:47 kados    does anyone have suggestions for how to solve this problem
15:47 paul     i'm afraid I don't
15:47 paul     but I encourage you to commit what is already done
15:47 paul     because seing the code, a new idea could emerge
15:47 thd      kados: you can variablise anything as you pointed out during devel week
15:48 kados    ok, I will commit what I have
15:48 paul     thd : we have 2 problems here :
15:48 paul     - complexity for the library
15:48 kados    anyone have any additional things to say about dev_week?
15:48 paul     - CPU consumming
15:48 paul     yes, me !!!
15:48 paul     what is the status of this version ?
15:48 kados    go ahead paul
15:48 paul     would you say it's stable ?
15:49 kados    nearly
15:49 kados    NPL goes live first week in October
15:49 paul     because the main question I have is : we have 3 branches atm (+2.2)
15:49 toins    and it will be a 2.4 release ?
15:49 kados    and two other libraries in November
15:49 kados    I anticipate official release to be in November
15:49 paul     and we all agree we miss some ressources.
15:49 thd      paul: the first is satisfied with a good set of language dependent defaults with some differing options
15:50 paul     so we really need to reach a 1 branch only to join our strenghtes.
15:50 kados    paul: I agree, but we can't agree on what features to pursue as a group!
15:50 kados    paul: so it's a challenge
15:50 thd      paul: if the solution to the first is good enough then you need a faster or load balancing server
15:50 paul     if you think it's stable, then, I'll ask toins to port everything to rel_3_0.
15:51 kados    but rel_3_0 is completely different!
15:51 paul     where ?
15:51 kados    where not? :-)
15:51 paul     in what is it completly different ?
15:51 kados    it's the former head with all the new features
15:51 kados    new db structure
15:51 kados    templates
15:52 kados    code cleanup
15:52 paul     and you're is mostly 2.2 + zebra
15:52 kados    toins has spent a long time making this very different from dev_week which is branched from rel_2_2
15:52 paul     right ?
15:52 kados    right
15:52 kados    not mostly
15:52 kados    only
15:52 paul     ok, so i'll ask toins to port zebra things to rel_3_0
15:53 paul     do you think it's impossible/complex/quite complex/quite easy/easy ?
15:53 kados    for Biblio stuff it's nearly impossible
15:53 kados    it will need to be re-written IMO
15:53 kados    for search, should be quite simple
15:54 tumer    it should not be that difficult
15:54 thd      kados: what do you mean by Biblio stuff?
15:54 kados    thd: everything in Biblio.pm
15:54 paul     but if we do a copy/paste, won't it work N
15:54 paul     ?
15:55 paul     do you mean the API has been so deeply modified ?
15:55 tumer    the dev_week biblio could almost work as it is with rel_3
15:55 toins    currently Biblio.pm from dev_week & from rel_3_0 are quite the same
15:55 toins    tumer: yes
15:56 tumer    so rel_3 can start working with zebra withminor changes
15:56 paul     it already works, toins is playing with it daily !
15:56 toins    tumer: rel_3_0 still work  with zebra
15:56 tumer    so no problem than
15:57 paul     kados ? your opinion ?
15:57 toins    i haven't test authorities.. just searching the catalogue from opac or librarian interface
15:57 paul     are we missing something ?
15:58 tumer    kados:??
15:59 paul     to summarize rel_3_0
15:59 paul     - it contains everything from rel_2_2, toins takes care of it
15:59 paul     - it contains all head enhancements (the one from SAN-OP, and some from me)
15:59 toins    except today commit
15:59 kados    ok, I"m back
16:00 paul     - it is synch'ed with dev_week by toins
16:00 toins    except the code not commit by SAN ...
16:00 paul     my idea/goal being to reach a stable branch asap, for SAN-OP
16:00 paul     so, kados, are we missing something ?
16:01 paul     it is VERY important, because SAN will decide tomorrow wether they go to Koha on january 1st or not.
16:01 thd      kados: what had prompted you to think the differences in Biblio.pm between 2.4 and 3.0 are 'impossible'?
16:01 paul     so I really need to have a clear view of what has to be done
16:02 tumer    by head i think paul means rel_3
16:02 kados    the problem we're facing is that only tumer and I understand how to use zebra
16:03 kados    and I'm not a programmer :-)
16:03 paul     I begin to understand it too, & hdl & toins too.
16:03 paul     although i'm still not a friend of zebra
16:04 kados    I can't evaluate whether what we've got will work for SAN
16:04 paul     (& won't probably never become a lover ;-) )
16:04 paul     why wouldn't it ?
16:04 kados    I don't know :-)
16:04 chris    SAN-OP have been working mainly in the members side
16:04 kados    there is one big issue to resolve
16:04 chris    and fines/overdues etc
16:05 kados    how to keep biblioitems.marc, items, and zebra index in synch
16:05 chris    i dont think there will be conflict between their work and the catalogue/search stuff
16:05 thd      kados: but you must have had some thought as a basis for suggesting 'impossible'
16:05 paul     chris is right here.
16:05 kados    I've got a script that runs every 5 minutes and I think that works well but hasn't been tested in a production environment
16:05 tumer    kados:i have it in production works smoothly
16:06 kados    tumer: I have a different script I think :-)
16:06 kados    tumer: what's your's?
16:06 tumer    yes i know, mine is better:)
16:06 kados    tumer: also, you aren't doing any circ, right?
16:06 kados    NPL does a huge amount or circ
16:06 kados    s/or/of/
16:06 tumer    i do everything in marc
16:06 tumer    my circ is faster than ever
16:07 kados    at one point several months ago I attempted to merge rel_3_0 (then head) and dev_week
16:07 kados    and I found it was impossible for me
16:08 tumer    i have done that
16:08 kados    but if someone else can do this, more power to them
16:08 thd      paul: does SAN have to decide tomorrow about extending its legacy ILS contract?
16:08 tumer    head is in sync except acquisitions
16:09 paul     yes & no thd. that's not the biggest problem, even if that's one. they need to organize teaching, plann the deployment, buy a server...
16:10 chris    the question then becomes
16:10 chris    do we try to sync dev_week to rel_3_0 now
16:11 chris    or do we wait for kados to commit a few more things?
16:11 chris    by we i meant not me :)
16:11 kados    hehe
16:11 paul     :)
16:11 kados    well I need to commit the search stuff for sure
16:11 paul     toins already synch.
16:11 tumer    i think kados will keep on committing whenever we sync
16:11 paul     on a "daily" basis.
16:11 thd      I have an idea for the language problem
16:11 chris    ohh cool
16:11 chris    in that case, its all good then
16:11 paul     so, i'm waiting imptiently for what is still missing ;-)
16:12 kados    ok, I"ll commit asap
16:12 chris    if ppl keeping commiting to dev_week, and toins keeps syncing
16:12 chris    then rel_3_0 will be dev_week plus all of san-ops improvements
16:12 tumer    so why release 2.4 and not 3?
16:12 paul     that was my next question ;-)
16:13 thd      exactly
16:13 paul     what time line for which version ?
16:13 chris    id like an installable version of either :-)
16:13 chris    thats the next big thing
16:13 paul     I already said I won't release 2.4 here for frenchies.
16:14 paul     but libraries are waiting for 3.0 !
16:14 kados    paying libraries?
16:14 tumer    if we have clean code working than we should use it!
16:14 paul     and 2.4 is just 2.2+zebra, which is not interesting small libraries, that are happy with sql only
16:15 chris    someone needs to work on making the installer work
16:15 chris    before we can release anything
16:15 tumer    a proper updater as well
16:15 paul     one step after the other chris...
16:15 thd      chris: is slef not working on that?
16:15 paul     1st have a stable version that can be installed by developers.
16:15 chris    no
16:16 kados    my problem is that I've exausted all of my resources just getting to where we are ... I can't focus on development for the rest of the year, I need to do some sales, etc.
16:16 paul     2nd build a strong installer to have an easy installation.
16:16 paul     I have some resources (mainly toins + hdl)
16:16 chris    ok, well imo we should be working towards a 3.0 release
16:17 paul     (hdl is tired, he did some hard stuf for some hard clients, so is happy to code again & toins is just here to code)
16:17 paul     (i take care of incomes for us ;-) )
16:17 chris    i wasnt meaning for kados to work on it
16:17 kados    :-)
16:17 chris    he needs to get dev_week out to some clients
16:17 kados    yep
16:17 chris    but i dont think we need to spend time effort on packaging a releas of it
16:17 thd      kados: do you mean that if you had sponsorship you could work more hours?
16:17 chris    as long as the fixes/improvements we make
16:18 kados    thd: no, but I might be able to afford to hire another programmer
16:18 chris    in dev_week, get sync'ed to rel_3_0
16:18 kados    chris: that's fine with me
16:18 chris    so lets work on getting rel_3_0 installable and stable for developers
16:19 chris    and not make a 2.4.x release which we will have to try and maintain
16:19 tumer    why not get dev_week with NPL templates and for USA only without translations etc
16:19 kados    that makes sense
16:19 kados    tumer: because I already have soe translations of it :-)
16:19 paul     tumer: that's what is about to happend in fact !
16:19 thd      kados: so would that mean that NPL would have a private fork?
16:19 chris    no
16:19 kados    thd: no, but LibLime has one
16:19 paul     thd : why ?
16:19 kados    so it seems
16:20 paul     what do you call a "private fork" ?
16:20 chris    yeah its not private
16:20 kados    it's not really private
16:20 paul     it's not really private
16:20 thd      paul: because kados has been developing 2.4 for NPL
16:20 kados    hehe
16:20 chris    :)
16:20 paul     :)
16:20 paul     it's just supported by liblime only.
16:20 kados    originally I did not imagine tumer and I would be the only one's working on zebra
16:20 chris    but we all get the benefit from it
16:20 kados    in fact, I didn't even know tumer and I am not a programmer :-)
16:21 paul     of course, if a french library comes & say "ok, i want this version, and have 1 000 000 EUR for this", then i'll use it in france (& refund some % to LibLime ;-) )
16:21 kados    hehe
16:21 paul     and you didn't imagine that zebra will be such a pain either !
16:21 kados    I think I didn't anticipate paul and hdl and chris being too busy to work on 3.0
16:21 tumer    they will say 1 000 000 $ not EUR
16:22 kados    I assumed everyone would work on it (meaning zebra)
16:22 chris    the reality of having to eat, means we have to do what our clients ask for
16:22 kados    yep, it's unfortunate but true
16:22 paul     chris is our "old wisdom man" it seems...
16:22 chris    but the good thing, is that we still get to share those with others
16:22 thd      kados: even I am eager to do something with XML Zebra
16:23 kados    hehe
16:23 chris    lol paul
16:23 kados    so now that Zebra 2.0 has been released I can see that XML + XSLT is very interesting for Koha
16:23 thd      s/XML/XPath indexing/
16:23 chris    yes im very interested in that too
16:23 kados    and I think probably after LibLime sells some dev_week stuff we're going to focus on that
16:24 chris    ok, so to summarise
16:24 paul     me too, but once again, i'm not sure to be able to work on this since a "long" time
16:24 chris    liblime will work on dev_week ... with katipo doing some bugfixing (i have a couple of clients in mind for this version)
16:25 chris    in parallel, rel_3_0 will be kept up to sync, and beaten into a releasable form
16:25 chris    does that sound right?
16:25 kados    yep
16:25 thd      I have had a thought about language issues
16:26 kados    thd: can it wait a minute?
16:26 paul     yep
16:26 thd      one could simply run a script to create differing language versions of hard coded variables
16:27 kados    thd: that won't work for multi-language OPACs
16:27 kados    thd: where the user switches back and forth between languages
16:27 paul     (most of my libraries have at least french & english active)
16:27 paul     so, it seems we are done with rel_3 & dev_week questions !
16:27 kados    yep :-)
16:28 paul     some minuts to spend for tumer work ?
16:28 kados    yep, I do
16:28 thd      kados: I meant to say that you would need a namespace for the different files for multilingual use
16:28 chris    yep
16:28 paul     I'm curious to know if it will be possible & how to move from dev_week/rel_3 to head
16:28 paul     (migrate the database I mean)
16:29 tumer    well head is in production with us so yes it will be possible
16:29 chris    :-)
16:29 paul     because tumer is playing a lot & greatly it seems, but we must remember we will have to migrate 2.2 &2.4 & 3.0 libraries !
16:29 kados    just to get a sense of what is involved in migration
16:29 thd      paul: only 2.2 is real trouble
16:29 paul     that's my question 2
16:29 kados    migrating NPL takes about 40 hours
16:30 chris    what we need
16:30 kados    the migrate script is a shell script that calls many other scripts
16:30 kados    it's a nightmare :-)
16:30 tumer    so from where HEAd should migrate from?
16:30 chris    is a fast computer, with a big ramdisk
16:30 thd      kados: do you commit your nightmares?
16:30 tumer    from Dev_week or earlier
16:30 chris    that everyone can use for migrations ;)
16:30 kados    hehe
16:31 paul     chris : hehe...
16:31 paul     tumer : 2.2 -> 2.4/3.0 migration is possible. kados & us already know how to do
16:31 paul     (even if it's quite a pain)
16:31 tumer    migration from dev_week to head should not tkae more than 2 hrs even less
16:32 paul     but with your new biblio structure, how can it be possible to automatize all of this ?
16:32 chris    i have some recent experience optimising import code
16:32 tumer    once you get the old marcs out of old db it can be automized
16:32 thd      paul: you just divide and replicate the items into separate records
16:33 chris    so i might be able to speed it up some, but not a huge amount i wouldnt imagine
16:33 thd      s/replicate/populate/
16:33 kados    chris: the longest time spent on NPL's migration is fixing the MARC records from 2.2.5
16:33 chris    yeah i can imagine
16:33 tumer    this is what i plan with head:
16:34 tumer    currently i am trying to keep it in sync with rel_3
16:34 chris    cool
16:34 tumer    by the end of this month it should be all finished and committed
16:34 tumer    after that i cannot keep trying to synchh it
16:35 tumer    i am also debugging it very fast as it it in use
16:35 dewey    okay, tumer.
16:35 tumer    so you decide what we do with it
16:35 thd      after that we can all work on 3.4
16:35 tumer    it contains lots of bug remmovede that you have in rel_2 and rel_34
16:35 paul_2   stupid provider...
16:36 tumer    addbiblio is now better handling of XML
16:36 tumer    authorities works
16:37 tumer    circulation is faster
16:37 tumer    and all proper UTF-8
16:37 chris    one question tumer
16:38 chris    can it, or will it be able to group 'like' records in the search results?
16:38 thd      chris: what do you mean by like records?
16:38 chris    http://zoomopac.liblime.com/search?&qf=it&do=Search&r=1
16:39 tumer    it works very similar to dev_week
16:39 tumer    except everything is xml
16:39 chris    right
16:40 tumer    so any of kados's search engines will sit on top of it
16:40 chris    im sure we can figure something out about that
16:40 thd      chris: anything which functions in Zebra should work
16:40 chris    ideally id like those first 3 results (the it's one) to all be on one line
16:40 chris    not 3 lines
16:40 kados    zebra won't be able to do this natively using a standard MARC format
16:41 chris    yeah
16:41 kados    the only way to do it is to create an abstract format that contains MARC (and other) records
16:41 thd      chris: I am formulating a proposal for that for 3.4
16:41 tumer    that looks like some perl coding rather than zebra to me
16:41 chris    yeah
16:42 chris    just checking
16:42 kados    it's mainly definitions
16:42 chris    im sure i can do something to make it look like its grouping
16:42 chris    but was gonna make sure i wasnt doing it needlessly if tumer had a solution
16:42 kados    it's the problem we've had from the beginning
16:42 paul_2   almost midnight in France (& 2AM in cyprus...)
16:42 kados    how can HLT and NPL both be happy :-)
16:42 thd      chris: my Idea is to extent FRBR to encompass the trans-adaptation conception of works in the original Koha record design
16:43 kados    FRBR is too MARC-centric I think
16:43 chris    cos thats a 'blocker' for not just hlt ... but any library that has gone to koha
16:43 chris    thats one of the things they hated about their old system
16:43 chris    s
16:43 kados    yep
16:43 kados    and it's what a lot of libraries hate
16:44 chris    was that the patrons got confused by the results
16:44 kados    the single biggest problem with MARC IMO
16:44 chris    yes
16:44 paul_2   can we end the meeting ?
16:44 thd      chris: you can hide the record complexity and still have it embedded underneath
16:44 chris    yep paul
16:44 kados    paul: yep
16:44 paul     a last question to chris :
16:44 tumer    yes
16:44 paul     how is going your wife ?
16:45 chris    i dont care about complexity, i just dont want 17 pages of results, when it can fit on 2 :-)
16:45 thd      chris: we can fit your results on one line if you want :)
16:45 chris    http://www.bigballofwax.co.nz/blog/files/crayon.jpg
16:46 chris    paul: thats for you
16:46 paul     I won't post my wife picture, but...
16:46 paul     ... my family will have a 4th baby at the end of february ;-)
16:46 kados    wow, so soon!
16:46 paul     that's my last announce for today !
16:46 alaurin  congratulations
16:46 chris    congrats paul
16:46 tumer    pauls been busy:)
16:46 paul     the question being will it be a 4th boy or a 1st girl?
16:47 paul     answer in october (6th iirc)
16:47 kados    hehe
16:47 tumer    it will be head!
16:48 btoumi   congratulations
16:49 paul     ok, bye bye & have a good day/evening/night depending on where you are located !
16:49 thd      paul chris: at least your new children will be born into a world with Koha
16:49 paul     btoumi: & alaurin => see you tomorrow morning.
16:49 btoumi   yep paul:
16:49 paul     toins : same note, but at 8:15 ;-)
16:50 toins    paul_bed: ok
16:50 thd      a much friendlier world than the one I was born into when you had too look at some massively large set of books to find out what other libraries held
16:51 toins    bye all !!!!!!!!!
16:52 thd      chris: with a trans-adaptation FRBR meta-record you could have the film, the novel, and the play all as a single result if you wanted
16:52 thd      chris: there would still be individual MARC records underneath
16:54 thd      chris: that was part of your original conception for Koha was it not?
16:54 chris    yes
16:54 tumer    goodnight all
16:54 chris    but id settle for the book under the same result :)
16:54 thd      chris: well I am going to make certain it gets implemented circa 3.4
16:55 chris    righto
16:55 chris    ill do a workaround for 3.0 etc
16:55 thd      chris: I have discussed it with tumer and found that we were thinking on some similar lines
16:56 thd      chris: this is only efficient for at least the 3.2 API
16:56 thd      chris: that uses XPath indexing
16:57 thd      chris: the dependency is Zebra 2.0 or greater
16:58 thd      chris: 3.0 uses an entirely different indexing method and does not provide for meta-records which can each hold individually indexed records
17:00 thd      chris: meta-records can hold any basic standard record relationship that some script can discover
17:01 alaurin  bye everybody
17:02 thd      bye alaurin
17:02 btoumi   bye all
17:02 thd      goodbye btoumi
17:03 thd      chris: what is the status or plan for  NZ acquisitions in Koha 3.0 vs the acquisitions on which others have been working?
17:04 chris    we put all our fixes in 3.0
17:04 thd      chris: so everyone is working on the same thing?
17:05 thd      chris: what you had described as NZ specific acquisitions during devel week sounded like all the things that any good acquisitions system for anywhere should have
17:06 chris    yep, it should be all the same in 3.0
17:06 chris    basically they were just the stuff that got missed out in 2.0 .. and then werent fixed for 2.2 ... but all good for 3.0
17:07 thd      chris: did you have any idea for making zoomopac multilingual?
17:07 chris    havent had a real chance to think about it
17:08 thd      chris: is multilingualism important for NZ libraries?
17:08 chris    yes
17:08 kados    it's very important to me
17:08 chris    for public libraries
17:08 kados    yep
17:09 chris    there are 2 official languages in nz... it should be in least those 2
17:09 chris    but then also samoan, tongan, chinese would be good too
17:09 thd      kados: I did not know that more than one was official
17:10 thd      s/kados/chris/
17:10 chris    yep, was only one official language for a long time, maori
17:10 chris    cos they never got round to making english official
17:10 chris    it was just the defacto
17:12 thd      chris: the problem with templates, even where they work, is updating them
17:13 thd      chris: many variables would require much CPU but multiple files in different namespaces generated by a script should avoid the updating problem
17:14 chris    its more than that
17:15 chris    templates give you a lot more freedom than simple translation
17:15 chris    but with freedom, means harder to keep up to date
17:15 thd      yes: I do not see how to do without templates
17:16 chris    i think its just something we have to deal with, try to make it as easy as possible, but realise its always going to be a burden
17:17 thd      merely, that some language generation could be scripted and maybe that could be partly functional for templates
17:17 chris    ok i better get back to work, got a bunch of tickets open from a client that i need to close
17:17 thd      ok chris
17:18 thd      kados: if you are stiff enough, I have a correction
17:48 thd      v \] ,............................................................................................................................................................
17:49 thd      oops, I dropped the keyboard
17:49 thd      russ: are you there?
17:50 russ     hi thd
17:50 thd      hello russ
17:51 thd      russ: has anyone asked yet about logbot for #koha-fr?
17:51 thd      russ: I forgot to bring it up during the meeting
17:52 thd      russ:do you know about #koha-fr
17:52 russ     no
17:52 thd      ?
17:52 russ     sounds like a question for the koha-devel list
17:53 thd      russ: people from SAN and some others are not comfortable communicating in French on a mostly English #koha IRC channel
17:54 thd      they had been using a private channel but recently started using #koha-fr instead
17:56 thd      russ: well paul had said he would ask Katipo about adding logbot for that channel so that people like me with poor connectivity can follow the developments in French occasionally
17:56 thd      russ: but if paul has not asked you I will remind him
17:56 russ     cool
18:21 thd      kados: are you locked out or locked in?
20:25 kados    thd: the problems with items not being saved properly persist
20:27 thd      kados: when is it created?
20:27 kados    I created a bibliographic entry for 6 + 1 Trait Writing: A Model That Worksusing the DVD, VHS framework.  Then, when I added an item, it became
20:27 kados    inaccessible.  The auto-barcoding worked and the item was given a uniquebarcode number, but now I can?t edit or delete that item.  Could I be using the
20:27 kados    framework incorrectly in some way?  Is there a vital MARC field that Ishouldn?t be leaving blank or something?
20:27 kados    I am replicating this on the demo to test
20:28 kados    and changeframework isn't working for some reason
20:28 kados    arrg
20:29 thd      kados: I have only seen frameworks not change when the frameworks had not finished installing
20:29 thd      s/installing/importing
20:34 kados    thd: I confirmed it happens in the demo too
20:34 kados    so there's a hidden view
20:34 kados    hidden bug I mean
20:35 thd      hidden bug?
20:35 thd      kados:when do the frameworks not change?
20:55 thd      kados: what is required to reproduce the bug?
21:10 kados    thd: create an item using the DVDs VHS framework
21:12 kados    thd: if you then duplicate the record with the default framework the duplicate doesn't have the problem
21:13 thd      kados:only the original record has the problem?
21:15 kados    but if you duplicate it with the DVDs, VHS framework the same problem happens
21:15 kados    so it's a bug related to frameworks for sure
21:15 thd      kados: you cannot create items with a framework
21:16 kados    thd: here are the steps to duplication:
21:16 kados    1. create a record using a framework other than default
21:16 kados    2. create an item for that framework
21:16 thd      kados: all items use the default framework
21:16 kados    (it will be an empty item, impossible to delete or edit)
21:16 kados    3. duplicate the record using the default framework
21:16 kados    4. create an item for that duplicate
21:17 kados    it will be a normal item
21:17 kados    5. duplicate ehe record using a non-default framework
21:17 kados    6. create an item for that duplicate
21:17 kados    it will be an empty item, impossisble to delete or edit
21:18 kados    this is definitely a blocker bug!
21:18 thd      sound extremely blocking :)
21:28 speedyfs hello everyone
21:32 speedyfs does anyone have a copy of PDF-API2-0.3r77.tar.gz
21:38 speedyfs ?
21:44 mason    speedyfs: u need an old version, for the old barcodes stuff?
21:46 mason    http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/A/AR/AREIBENS/
21:47 mason    http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/A/AR/AREIBENS/PDF-API2-0.3r77.tar.gz
21:48 thd      kados: does your bad record have a items.itemnumber ID?
21:49 thd      in the item that you cannot edit
21:49 thd      kados: my item has visible content and I cannot edit it
21:54 kados    thd: yes, it has visible content
21:54 kados    thd: some things are saved, others are not
21:54 kados    it's definitely to do with frameworks though
21:54 speedyfs yeah
21:55 speedyfs sorry mason thanks
21:55 kados    power just went out in half of Athens :-)
21:55 kados    (the half my office is in :/)
21:55 kados    so I packed up and head to a local bar :-)
21:55 mason    no probs :)
21:56 thd      kados: can you see lights on on one side of the street and off on the other?
21:56 kados    thd: yes :-)
21:56 kados    thd: literally :-)
21:56 kados    the athens power companies are so laughable
21:57 kados    so first off I'm gonna file a bug
21:57 kados    then I'll test the default templates
21:58 thd      kados: this was a problem before I changed the items labels?
21:59 thd      s(/this )(was)/\2 \1/
22:02 kados    ok, bug filed
22:02 kados    thd: I don't know
22:02 kados    thd: I think it's been a bug for a long time and noone noticed
22:02 kados    ok now I test default
22:04 thd      kados: Afognak had many items with no bar code after they had edited them which could not be edited or deleted
22:05 thd      I had assumed that their deleting barcodes was the problem
22:05 kados    I confirm it happens in the default tempaltes too
22:07 kados    shoot, this is a really big problem
22:08 thd      kados: does it happen if you reload the standard default framework only
22:08 thd      ?
22:08 kados    thd: it only happens with non-default templates
22:08 kados    thd: specifically, the ones you created as I have no other ones to test
22:09 thd      kados: I thought that you said it happens with default also
22:09 kados    thd: it only happens with non-default templates
22:09 kados    I'm 90% sure it's a code problem
22:09 kados    I'm gonna try testing in stock rel_2_2 now
22:10 thd      kados: code meaning non-template code?
22:10 kados    yes
22:10 thd      kados: code meaning non-framework code?
22:10 kados    thd: yes
22:11 kados    thd: it would not hurt to triple check the frameworks for some hidden problem though
22:11 thd      kados: well we never found out about the UNIMARC only bugs paul spoke of earlier
22:11 kados    thd: true
22:12 thd      kados: if paul tested only default for MARC 21 he would have missed this as a MARC 21 issue
22:12 kados    yep
22:14 kados    I confirmed it happens with stock rel_2_2 also
22:14 kados    sigh
22:14 thd      kados:if you are confident that is not the framework then I can think of an excellent way to test
22:14 kados    thd: how?
22:14 thd      or confirm
22:15 thd      kados: you could duplicate the default framework as an additional framework
22:16 thd      kados:if it happens with the duplicate of default but not default then you know it is how the code is treating default
22:17 kados    thd: I confirmed that creating a new record with default works
22:17 kados    now I'll duplicate one created with default and see if it happens
22:17 thd      s/treating default/treating non-default/
22:18 kados    ok, it still happens
22:18 kados    basically any non-default framework triggers the problem for marc21 records
22:19 kados    and I don't see any strange errors either
22:20 kados    now I"ll test with unimarc
22:20 thd      kados: you have your own UNIMARC install or the UNIMARC demo
22:21 thd      ?
22:21 kados    I have a UNIMARC install that paul sent me
22:21 speedyfs mason: thanks a bunch
22:21 speedyfs mason: the barcode reader works now
22:26 kados    of course, it doesn't happen in unimarc :/
22:26 kados    damn it
22:26 thd      ;)
22:26 kados    thd: so it's either your frameworks, or else something in the code
22:27 thd      kados:must be the frameworks if it does not happen in UNIMARC
22:27 kados    thd: must it?
22:27 kados    thd: so what is the difference between your frameworks and the unimarc ones?
22:27 thd      kados:why would it not happen in UNIMARC
22:28 kados    I've no idea :/
22:28 thd      chiefly that I wrote them
22:28 kados    hehe
22:28 thd      or edited them
22:28 kados    it looks like the structure of the files are different ... paul's aren't commented at all and are mainly a bunch of insert statements
22:29 kados    slightly different syntax than your's
22:29 thd      kados:what is different about the syntax?
22:29 kados    INSERT INTO marc_subfield_structure (tagfield, tagsubfield, liblibrarian, libopac, repeatable, mandatory, kohafield, tab, authorised_value, authtypecode, value_builder, isurl, hidden, frameworkcode, seealso, link) VALUES ('090', '9', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 0, 0, 'biblio.biblionumber', -1, '', '', '', NULL, NULL, '', NULL, NULL);
22:30 thd      kados:yes I had a discussion about that with paul before I committed them
22:30 kados    and?
22:31 thd      kados: there is no absolute need for the extra verbosity if you are newly creating the tables
22:31 kados    right
22:32 thd      kados: however, really stringent coding would require the most verbose form always so I asked paul
22:33 thd      kados: less verbosity makes it easier to spot the important parts when editing
22:33 kados    yep
22:34 kados    thd: low priority request, remove all reference to ASMP
22:35 kados    power is back on, I'm headed back to my office
22:35 kados    brb
22:37 thd      kados: ok I will make a test framework for the test I described earlier
22:53 kados    ok
23:00 kados    thd: I just duplicated the default framework and am testing that
23:01 kados    thd: it seems the default framework is back to a very bloated version
23:01 thd      kados: you added a framework name in all the correct places?
23:01 kados    thd: the unmanagable one we started with perhaps?
23:01 kados    thd: I used the Intranet to create it
23:02 kados    wow, the default is really quite bloated
23:02 thd      kados: oh yes that would be the easy way for that
23:02 kados    thd: it does not occur with a non-default framework
23:03 kados    thd: it occurs only with your frameworks ;-)
23:03 kados    thd: I created a testing framework that is a copy of the default and adding items works fine
23:04 kados    so there must be something wrong with the asmp_frameworks
23:04 thd      kados: the default framework has only a few extra subfields from a few months ago
23:05 kados    thd: I suspect the sql syntax is flawless
23:05 thd      kados: does this happen with every non-default ASMP framework
23:05 kados    I will test others to see
23:06 thd      kados: yes, we would have had an import error if the SQL was a problem
23:06 thd      kados: did you use an underscore for your duplicate name?
23:06 kados    it happens with BOOKS
23:06 kados    thd: no
23:07 kados    thd: no underscore
23:07 kados    thd: I will test with an underscore
23:07 thd      kados: was your name more than 4 characters?
23:07 kados    no
23:07 kados    it was TEST
23:07 thd      kados: I think that the template will restrict you to 4 characters
23:07 kados    thd: the template restricts to 4 characters
23:08 thd      kados: yes I increased the size of the columns
23:09 thd      kados: that allowed for meaningful framework names and namespaces
23:12 kados    thd: I have changed all the codes to 4 characters in the demo and I'm re-testing
23:14 kados    thd: that must be it
23:14 kados    thd: it worked
23:14 thd      kados: have you tried 4 characters including an underscore?
23:14 kados    thd: no
23:15 thd      kados: try that
23:15 kados    thd: I'm not inclined to since 4 characters gives us plenty
23:15 kados    thd: I'm tired and just want a simple solution now :-)
23:15 thd      kados: plenty for what?
23:15 kados    thd: plenty of possible codes
23:15 kados    thd: way more than any koha install should have :-)
23:15 thd      kados: yes plenty in an absolute sense but not for readability
23:16 kados    thd: I'd like to commit what I did
23:16 kados    thd: I just changed the codes
23:16 kados    thd: and I removed reference to asmp
23:16 kados    thd: I'd also like to rename the file
23:17 kados    thd: I'd like to call it marc21_bib_frameworks.sql
23:17 thd      kados:  I have a name suggestion
23:17 kados    ok
23:17 thd      kados: your name suggestion
23:18 kados    ?
23:18 kados    marc21_bib_frameworks.sql?
23:19 thd      kados: marc21_simple_bib_frameworks.sql
23:19 kados    ok, I'll do that and commit
23:19 kados    and delete the asmp one
23:19 thd      kados: I do like readable names and I do not think that we found the problem
23:21 kados    thd: that's what the lables are for
23:21 kados    thd: the whole point of a code is that it's short and can be easily indexed
23:21 kados    thd: if all the codes start with SIMPLE then mysql doesn't index them efficiently
23:21 thd      kados: I am inclined to suspect the underscore or something else
23:21 kados    ok, I have committed
23:21 kados    I will leave it to you to maintain, synch with other branches, etc.
23:22 thd      kados: I did not think that index efficiency was a function of string length
23:22 kados    yes, it is
23:23 thd      kados: is the framework code even indexed?
23:24 kados    it has a key assigned to it I think
23:24 kados    there's no point to having a code and a label if the code is as verbose as the label
23:24 kados    might as well just have a label to start with
23:24 thd      kados: yes but that is not the same as indexing in MySQL, although, keys are certainly indexed
23:26 thd      kados: it seems as if you are making an argument in favour of the byte economies of the original MARC design
23:26 kados    I am :-)
23:26 thd      kados: instead of the nice human readable labels we can have in XML
23:27 thd      kados:it is not as if I made the column a text field
23:28 thd      kados: I only made it VARCHAR (32) from (4)
23:28 kados    thd: please change it back to 4
23:29 thd      kados:and you know that no one can detect the microseconds lost in indexing the key for the framework :)
23:29 kados    yes I know
23:29 kados    but lets keep things simple and not diverge needlessly from the project's existing conventions
23:29 kados    it causes headaches for me :-)
23:30 thd      kados: that would mean that very little could have meaningful labels.
23:31 kados    thd: they don't need meaningful labels
23:31 thd      kados: I think it is the underscore
23:31 kados    thd: that's what the labels are for :-)
23:31 kados    s/labels/codes/ in my original response
23:31 thd      kados: you are not editing them in vim
23:31 kados    thd: yes I am :-)
23:32 kados    BKS is just as meaningful as SIMPLE_BOOKS
23:32 thd      kados: I mean staring at them for hours in vim till they do what they should :)
23:32 kados    :-)
23:32 kados    well however you want to represent them while editing is fine by me
23:33 kados    but i think we should stick with the 4 character limit when we commit
23:33 thd      kados: if all the code in Koha were that economical it would be unreadable
23:33 thd      kados: I think the best solution is one framework that changes dynamically
23:34 kados    I agree ... but that won't appear until 2.2.8 :-)
23:34 thd      kados: I thought that was a 3.4 feature
23:34 kados    yea ...
23:35 kados    in 3.2 we could do it with xslt
23:35 kados    there's so much we could be doing if we had the resources
23:35 kados    it's frustrating
23:35 kados    anyway, I need to sleep now
23:35 thd      kados: I am too tired to go to sleep
23:36 kados    :-)
23:36 kados    ok, I'm gonna head out
23:36 kados    thanks for troubleshooting with me thd
23:36 thd      kados: when you are awake I will explain something about what standard frameworks might be
23:36 kados    g'night #koha
23:37 thd      kados:you will see that 4 characters will be difficult to keep the frameworks straight because the letters would become arbitrary code assignments
01:10 Mordazy  hi all
01:10 Mordazy  anybody here using KOHA in a lib that has several branches?
01:30 thd      Mordazy: many are
01:30 Mordazy  okay
01:30 Mordazy  one question:
01:30 thd      Mordazy: did you have a question about branches?
01:31 Mordazy  on the koha mailing list? yes
01:32 thd      Mordazy: I do not understand your question if you have asked it yet
01:32 Mordazy  sorry, I thought you asked about question I posted to mailing list
01:32 Mordazy  I need to know if branches can for example return or issue items from each other?
01:33 Mordazy  I mean, there are two branches, for example Adult Fiction and Multimedia
01:34 thd      Mordazy: there is a branch transfer function
01:35 Mordazy  but I don`t want branches to mess in each other`s transactions
01:35 thd      Mordazy: I may be mistaken, but I believe any branch can charge out items
01:35 Mordazy  hmmm
01:36 thd      Mordazy: you can also add restrictions
01:36 Mordazy  o! tell me more.
01:36 thd      Mordazy: there are very detailed set of permissions for users including librarians
01:37 Mordazy  my lib has 6 branches, some in distant locations. I DON`T want staff from Adult Fiction to do ANYTHING but view with items or transactions from other branches
01:37 Mordazy  the same applying to any other branch
01:38 thd      Mordazy: I do not administer a real library so I have not spent much time looking for where the options are
01:38 thd      Mordazy: I believe that you can prevent that absolutely
01:39 Mordazy  My Koha is not ready for use yet, and I need some quick answers...
01:39 thd      Mordazy: there are also mechanisms where one branch can transfer material to another branch
01:40 Mordazy  so it`s possible to restrict staff from a branch from issuing, returning (or modifying issues) items from other branches?
01:40 Mordazy  brb
01:51 Mordazy  transfers bettween branches are not important now
01:51 Mordazy  My biggest concern is how to make sure that staff from branch one can`t mess anything in transactions from branch two. For example: can staff from Adult Fiction branch borrow, return etc. items from Multimedia Branch?  I hope they can`t by default, because there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult
01:55 thd      Mordazy: staff cannot even circulate material by default
01:56 Mordazy  okay...
01:57 thd      Mordazy: you have to enable permissions specifically
01:57 Mordazy  but if they can circulate, are they restricted from issuing/returning/prolonging materials from other branches
01:57 Mordazy  ?
01:59 thd      Mordazy: there seems to be no explicit permission restricting that in the members settings but that may be controlled by a combination of factors
02:00 Mordazy  exactly, no explicit permissions / restrictions
02:00 thd      Mordazy: unfortunately I actually know least of all about how Koha manage
02:01 Mordazy  the question is, whether the system denies such actions, or allows them
02:01 thd      s circulation
02:01 Mordazy  :(
02:01 Mordazy  piry :(
02:01 Mordazy  pity
02:03 thd      Mordazy: if it is not set implicitly by a combination of user and branch settings then you could easily hire someone familiar with Koha circulation to fix the code for that
02:03 osmoze   hello #koha
02:03 thd      hello osmoze
02:03 thd      osmoze does you library have more than one branch?
02:04 osmoze   yes
02:04 osmoze   3 branch
02:05 thd      osmoze: do you know if there is an existing method to prevent the circulating librarian from circulating or renewing material from a different branch to the branch that librarian is associated
02:05 thd      ?
02:06 osmoze   i think no
02:07 thd      Mordazy: well there could be.  I think it would be very easy to code actually
02:07 Mordazy  probably
02:07 Mordazy  but not for me, at least yet :(
02:09 thd      Mordazy: you should communicate with some one on this list ...
02:09 thd      http://www.koha.org/support/pay.html
02:09 Mordazy  the problem is, that the management of my lib wants a system that works OUR way right out the box
02:10 thd      Mordazy: very little good software would be expected to do that
02:10 Mordazy  yeah
02:10 Mordazy  but actually I demand only one thing
02:11 thd      Mordazy: the database has a place to store the home branch for each user including librarians
02:11 Mordazy  that branches` staff don`t go in each other`s way
02:12 Mordazy  brb, will check something with our current ILS
02:13 thd      Mordazy: so you would only need the system to check the librarian branch affiliation when checking for circulation permission
02:16 Mordazy  I guess my question was not precise
02:16 Mordazy  actually I don`t care about staff, I care about COMPUTERS in branches
02:17 Mordazy  I know that computer registers itself by a cookie, which branch it belongs to
02:19 Mordazy  so I actually should have asked if computer in Adult Fiction branch can circulate items from Multimedia, since it`s registered in Adult Fiction
02:20 thd      Mordazy: well that could certainly be another method of restriction and maybe that one works by default even where there maybe no restriction for the librarian with circulation privileges
02:24 thd      good morning hdl
02:25 osmoze   lo hdl
02:25 hdl      hi thd
02:26 thd      hdl: can computers at one branch be used to circulate material not present at that branch?
02:26 hdl      unless IndependantBranches is set, yes.
02:27 thd      hdl: and if independent branches are set then not?
02:27 hdl      yes.
02:27 thd      Mordazy: there is your answer
02:27 hdl      (not based on computers though, but on librarian branch)
02:28 thd      hdl: ok that was my suggestion for a method
02:30 thd      hdl: a couple of days ago kados suspected he found code in addbiblio.pl that could lead to data loss if independent branches was set.
02:31 thd      hdl: it was not obvious to me but he has familiarity with the code
02:32 hdl      thd: Must have been corrected.
02:32 thd      hdl:m in the past 2 days?
02:32 hdl      I have seen it on bugzilla...
02:33 hdl      yes.
02:33 hdl      Or was it not what he reported ?
02:34 thd      hdl: I am not certain that kados was confident about it being a real problem
02:35 thd      hdl: he just happened to notice something which did not look correct when tracing a problem for adding items
02:35 thd      hdl: is there any reason that changing the size of framework columns should cause a problem?
02:37 thd      hdl: that was the problem we were trying to trace but did not find until last night
02:38 thd      hdl: unless I goofed I notice that some tables have VAR for framework code and some use CHAR
02:39 thd      hdl: if the framework code were smaller than the maximum allowed value in CHAR could the value returned have trailing spaces?
02:47 Mordazy  hdl: what if independant branches are set? Is there still one borrower database? or each branch has its own borrower db?
02:48 Mordazy  that`s the problem
02:50 thd      Mordazy: there is only one database really but independent branches is not extensively documented and not a very old feature.  It dates from about a year ago
02:50 Mordazy  I`ve been told that independant branches have independant _everything_
02:51 thd      Mordazy: but it is not the same as multiple installations of Koha
02:53 Mordazy  thd: I know. The problem is that I have no DB yet to conduct proper testing...
02:54 thd      Mordazy: separate installations would be extra independent and require MySQL databases for each branch
02:56 thd      Mordazy: there are instructions for installing Koha on http://www.kohadocs.org
02:57 Mordazy  yes, but does "intependant" mean in this case that also borrower will have to register in each branch and will have separate accounts with transactions and payments for each branch?
02:58 thd      Mordazy: just remember that Koha is on http://savanah.nongnu.org/ not sourceforge
02:59 thd      Mordazy: unfortunately, I do not know that
03:00 Mordazy  brb
03:00 thd      Mordazy: not many libraries actually use the independent branches feature
03:14 hdl      join #koha-fr
03:49 Mordazy  I have Koha installed, localized and functional, but have serious problems with database conversion
03:50 Mordazy  now we`re in consortium using Aleph ILS, which screwed our records totally
03:51 Mordazy  our previous LS was using non-relational, text-based databases, so now getting anything out it is a nightmare
03:54 mason    so your database conversion problems are between your previous LS and Aleph?
03:58 Mordazy  no
03:59 Mordazy  mason: the guys in the central library converted our old record into Aleph
03:59 mason    uhuh
03:59 Mordazy  but since anyone can change our records
03:59 Mordazy  our database is  full of garbage
04:00 Mordazy  cleaning it is almost impossible
04:00 Mordazy  so we want to use our old databases and add later additions made in Aleph
04:01 Mordazy  but my knowledge is not enough yet to do it, so I`m waiting for a friend doing it
04:02 Mordazy  Aleph is an Israel-made system working on Oracle
04:02 mason    gotcha
04:03 Mordazy  expensive, not user friendly and looking like windows 1.0
04:03 mason    so, is your current DB garbage coz someone did a bad conversion?
04:04 mason    or because the staff are updating the bib info willy-nilly?
04:04 Mordazy  that too
04:04 Mordazy  there are 8 libraries in the consortium, in a couple of years will be 40
04:05 mason    wow, thats big
04:05 Mordazy  but the whole thing is made without basic concept
04:05 mason    right, so not too much consorting at ther moment...
04:05 Mordazy  ANYBODY in the consortium can not only view, but also CHANGE our records
04:06 mason    ah, thats a powerful feature :(
04:06 mason    right i now understand your previous questions about branches.
04:07 Mordazy  in addition, there`s nobody in charge, nobody to take full control of anything
04:07 Mordazy  I don`t want KOHA for consortium
04:07 Mordazy  my lib wants to escape from that damn thing before it collapses
04:08 Mordazy  I want KOHA for my library ONLY
04:08 mason    right, or at least a plan b...
04:08 Mordazy  but my library consists of 6 branches
04:08 Mordazy  that`s a plan a :) staying in the consortium is z, maybe :)
04:09 Mordazy  that consortium is not an organisation
04:10 Mordazy  is a DISorganisation :D
04:10 Mordazy  nothing really works
04:10 mason    chris has lots of knowledge about branches customisation
04:11 Mordazy  I could spend couple of days writing of the central library screw-ups :)
04:11 Mordazy  but it`s not the point
04:11 mason    we usually end up doing little mods for each of our libraries...
04:11 Mordazy  chris, you say...
04:11 Mordazy  when is he active, usually?
04:11 mason    as they all handle issuing rules differently
04:12 mason    hmm its 9:15pm here in new zealand
04:12 Mordazy  issuing rules are notr a big problem
04:12 Mordazy  I`d just create branch-specific items
04:15 Mordazy  but there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult Fiction.
04:15 Mordazy  prolonged=renewed
04:16 mason    right, so your issue is more about access-control of bib records , defined by user groups
04:17 mason    so sally from Multimedia, can issue or update, only view bibs from her branch...
04:17 mason    s/can/cant
04:18 mason    so sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch...
04:18 mason    .
04:18 Mordazy  she could view items from other branches, but couldn`t change it
04:18 mason    that makes more sense :)
04:18 mason    snap
04:18 Mordazy  that doesn`t matter
04:19 Mordazy  but exactly that`s what I want
04:19 mason    it sounds like a useful feature for an ILS
04:20 Mordazy  "sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch"
04:21 Mordazy  it would be nice, if she could eventually switch to "full view" and see ALL items borrowed by certain user
04:21 Mordazy  [see ONLY :))]
04:21 mason    i imagine something like the unix file permissions idea, would work ok for this too
04:22 Mordazy  the problem is that I have less than two months to have system running for tests and another one for testing
04:23 Mordazy  honestly, I`m surprised that something as useful is not implemented in Koha yet
04:24 mason    your situation is uniquw, because the default behaviour is to restrict staff access
04:25 mason    i think that the feature hasnt happened in koha yet, because there hasnt been a need. (yet)
04:25 Mordazy  you know, every branch in our lib has ITS OWN circulation desk
04:26 Mordazy  there`s no common circulation desk for all branches
04:26 Mordazy  but wait
04:26 Mordazy  What Branch Categories actually DO?
04:27 mason    ah, branches are in the same building?
04:28 Mordazy  mason: no, 3 are in the same building, 3 are in other locations
04:28 mason    ah, ok
04:29 mason    i have to head out about now :(
04:29 Mordazy  mason: thanks anyway :)
04:30 mason    but , lurk about in the next few days and get some better info from other in #koha, who know more about these parts of the system than i do
04:31 Mordazy  ok, thakns
04:31 mason    ive got a feeling that koha has restrictions that may work close to what you are looking for
04:31 Mordazy  thanks
04:31 Mordazy  me too, my lib is not the only one that has distant branches :)
04:32 mason    righo , im off , see you online :)
04:32 Mordazy  see you!
04:48 Mordazy  okay...
04:48 Mordazy  can anyone explain me, what Branch Categories actually do?
04:49 Mordazy  what`s the difference if I assign all branches to one category, or will have a few categories?
04:49 Mordazy  brb
06:29 Mordazy  re
07:24 Mordazy  does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do?
07:26 Mordazy  does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do?
07:43 Mordazy  hi owen
07:44 owen     Hi Mordazy. Have we met before?
07:44 Mordazy  probably not, I`m new here
07:47 Mordazy  I`m really impressed with the work you`ve done
07:48 Mordazy  I like Koha very much, but not sure if it suits our needs...
07:48 Mordazy  would you spare me a few minutes?
07:48 owen     I'll answer if I can
07:49 Mordazy  thanks
07:50 Mordazy  is it possible to restrict staff from different branches from issuing / returning / renewing items that belong to other branches?
07:50 owen     Ah, I recognize your question from the mailing list
07:51 Mordazy  I mean, Adult Fiction handles only their items / transactions, but can`t change anything in other transactions
07:51 Mordazy  yes, this is crucial for me
07:51 owen     I'm not an expert on the branch restrictions in Koha, because my library doesn't use them. It may be possible to restrict issing and renewing, but I'm less sure about returning.
07:52 Mordazy  thanks :)
07:56 Mordazy  we have 3 local branches and 3 in other locations, not to mention all branch managers are rather teritorial types :)
07:56 Mordazy  territorial :)
07:58 owen     Okay, my quick test indicates that Koha doesn't quite fit your needs: With the 'IndependentBranches' setting turned ON, I was prevented from issuing a book that belonged to another branch. But I wasn't prevented from renewing or from returning items from another branch.
07:58 Mordazy  ouch :(
07:58 owen     it seems that those changes would be a logical extension of the current IndependentBranches functionality
07:59 Mordazy  the question is when :(
07:59 owen     Right... You'd have to wait an indeterminate amount of time or pay for the changes to be made
08:00 owen     The core developers are working on numerous upgrade issues, so it's a bad time to ask for volunteers
08:00 Mordazy  unfortunately, I need a fast solution :(
08:02 Mordazy  by the way, does IndependentBranches also make members to register themselves separately to all branches?
08:03 owen     Good question. As far as I know the IndependentBranches settings relate to the Koha Librarian, not to the Koha User
08:03 Mordazy  or is there still common database and accounts?
08:03 owen     There is definitely not a separate database
08:04 Mordazy  so, even with Independent.. turned on, a member registered in one branch is automatically registered in all?
08:05 Mordazy  http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/brama.jpg
08:05 Mordazy  http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/hol1.jpg
08:06 owen     Yes, there is always one common member database for all branches. And the IndependentBranches setting doesn't seem to prevent members of one branch from borrowing at another.
08:06 Mordazy  pics of my library :)
08:06 owen     Wow! Beautiful!
08:07 owen     Reminds me very much of Prague, which I've visited several times
08:07 Mordazy  ...but rather non-functional :)
08:09 Mordazy  Wroclaw is current cultural centre in Poland
08:14 Mordazy  brb
08:16 owen     Mordazy, I've just been looking over your emails again. It's hard to see how Koha could work for you as-is without separate installations at each branch... but then you'd lose the common catalogue (which I assume is a requirement)
08:16 Mordazy  Swidnica is about 500km from Krakow
08:17 Mordazy  owen: my earlier emails were rather a bunch ow wishes :)
08:17 Mordazy  the really crucial thing is that branch separation issuing / returning / renewing
08:18 Mordazy  I would handle the rest
08:19 Mordazy  ow=of :)
08:20 owen     Then I'm afraid you're back to needing to hire a developer :(
08:21 Mordazy  that`s the problem
08:22 Mordazy  as I mentioned, we`re working on exit strategy from a consortium that indesputably is going to collapse in next two years max.
08:23 Mordazy  if we haven`t a working ILS in April, we`ll have to stay in it for another year
08:24 Mordazy  ...and pay big bucks for nothing :) :(
08:24 owen     If there are big bucks involved, couldn't that help justify the hiring of a developer?
08:25 Mordazy  it` Poland, man :)
08:25 Mordazy  it`s a country, where tigers run freely on the streets
08:25 owen     ? :)
08:25 Mordazy  and the cops shoot the veterinary :)
08:26 kados    paul: you around?
08:26 Mordazy  in other words, it`s a plase that NOTHING works as it should.
08:26 Mordazy  uch
08:26 Mordazy  in other words, it`s a place where NOTHING works as it should.
08:26 kados    hehe
08:26 kados    yea, that's true
08:28 Mordazy  a bandit with three sentences for various crimes is a prime minister here :)
08:28 kados    really?
08:28 dewey    really are quite different
08:28 Mordazy  actually, vice-prime minister
08:28 owen     dewey: forget really
08:28 dewey    owen: I forgot really
08:29 owen     dewey: Poland is a country where tigers run freely on the streets
08:29 dewey    i haven't a clue, owen
08:29 Mordazy  you know
08:30 Mordazy  that saying about tigers running is kinda true
08:30 Mordazy  a couple years ago a tiger escaped from a zoo
08:31 paul     kados, i'm here
08:31 paul     (compiling zebra & yaz & zoom on btoumi computer)
08:31 Mordazy  a veterinary was sent for
08:32 Mordazy  he managed to get close to the tiger
08:32 Mordazy  gave him some meat wit tranquilizer
08:32 Mordazy  with
08:32 Mordazy  ...and the same moment one of the cops panicked...
08:32 Mordazy  ...and shot...
08:32 Mordazy  ...the vet.
08:35 Mordazy  the sad thing is that most thing go such way here :(
08:36 Mordazy  anyway
08:36 Mordazy  I`m very sad that Koha hasn`t more complete branch separation :(
08:37 owen     Mordazy, I think that requires the dreaded word: consortium
08:37 Mordazy  not in Poland, unfortunately
08:38 Mordazy  here that word is a synonym for rip-off :)
08:39 Mordazy  if you`re not bored, I`ll tell you why our current consortium came to existence in the first place
08:40 Mordazy  quide amusing, but also scary story :)
08:40 Mordazy  first of all, the current central library was about to be closed
08:40 Mordazy  so they came up with idea of making a consortium
08:41 Mordazy   to make as many libraries as possible dependant on them
08:41 Mordazy  they made a big noise about common database..
08:41 Mordazy  common policies, easier way to get grants from gov`t and so on
08:42 Mordazy  so, our previous manager signed in without thinking
08:42 Mordazy  [I wasn`t working here yet]
08:42 Mordazy  ...and many others followed
08:42 Mordazy  the central lib picked Aleph
08:43 Mordazy  VERY expensive, by the way
08:43 Mordazy  so they could afford only a couple of licences
08:44 Mordazy  of course, as new libraries joined, they had to buy licences for themselves
08:44 Mordazy  or course, they also could afford less than they needed
08:45 Mordazy  in the meantime the central catalogue appeared to be rather nightmare than blessing
08:45 Mordazy  anyone in consortium can viev and CHANGE our records, so you can imagine the mess
08:45 toins    kados: you around ?
08:46 toins    oh yeah !
08:46 Mordazy  ...and we discovered, that we hardly can work on our 8 licences we paid for
08:47 Mordazy  4-5, 6, but never eight
08:47 toins    do you know this error : Connecting...error = System (lower-layer) error: Connection refused
08:47 Mordazy  aha, the server for the whole thing is in the central lib
08:47 Mordazy  we quickly discovered two things
08:47 Mordazy  1) our licences are NOT bound to our computers
08:48 Mordazy  but they "float" between libs in a common pool
08:48 Mordazy  2) central lib always uses more licences than they paid for
08:49 Mordazy  two-three times more, to be exact :)
08:49 kados    toins: I don't know it
08:50 Mordazy  of course the answer to any and all of our complaints was "it can`t be done"
08:50 Mordazy  do I have to say more, why we`re desperately looking for an exit from this mess? :)
08:51 kados    Mordazy: what's your timeline for leaving the consortium
08:51 Mordazy  7-8 months at best.
08:52 Mordazy  i count that I`d hace system running until new year
08:52 Mordazy  have
08:53 Mordazy  another 3 months for testing
08:54 Mordazy  I hoped that Koha will suit our basic needs right of the box
08:56 Mordazy  I could handle the cosmetics
08:56 Mordazy  and would also learn a lot :)
08:57 Mordazy  `hokay
08:57 kados    don't create your own set of templates :-)
08:58 Mordazy  have to go
08:58 Mordazy  yeah, I know :)
08:58 kados    Mordazy: bye
08:58 Mordazy  I`ll be back in couple of hours
08:59 Mordazy  thanks for answers, thanks a lot!
08:59 Mordazy  see you!
09:02 owen     Poor Mordazy...keeps hoping someone will give him a different answer
09:02 kados    yea
09:03 btoumi   oué
09:12 owen_    Is there an estimate for the next release of rel_2_2?
09:18 kados    is paul really in bed?
09:18 kados    paul_bed: sleeping on the job? :-)
09:19 btoumi   no
09:19 kados    owen: we didn't solidify a release date yesterday, 
09:19 btoumi   it works witth san op today
09:19 kados    owe	
09:19 kados    owen: erp
09:19 kados    owen: keyboard acting up
09:19 btoumi   kados do u want to ask something to him
09:20 btoumi   ?
09:20 kados    just wondering if he saw owen's post above
09:20 kados    owen: do we have a bug report filed for that one?
09:20 kados    btoumi: also, wanted to ask him whether we need to file a bug report for the known bug of missing 090 fields
09:20 kados    btoumi: even though we don't know why it happens
09:21 kados    btoumi: we know that it does happen
09:23 btoumi   btoumi: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion
09:23 btoumi   kados: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion
09:24 kados    btoumi: nevermind
09:24 kados    btoumi: I will ask him when he is back
09:24 btoumi   kados: ok
09:45 owen     Heh.... from Bugzilla: "I will fix this tomorrow" 2003-06-02 :)