Time Nick Message
11:56 thd kados: are you paying attention?
11:55 thd tumer: so who has asked Index Data about more flexible use of indexes for matching different record types or other similar purposes?
11:52 thd tumer: I mean for authorities we would have the same problem but not even have the option of authorities data for tracings and references fields, etc. in the bibliographic records in the way that we have holdings fields in the bibliographic records.
11:50 thd tumer: this will be a much worse problem for doing anything interesting with authorities will it not?
11:48 thd tumer: have you or anyone asked Index Data about this indexing design problem specifically?
11:45 thd tumer: but much less efficient than if Zebra does it all.
11:44 thd tumer: I think it quite simple now
11:42 thd tumer: yet, I do not think that building a complimentary index would be difficult but I have not thought it through fully.
11:41 tumer i hope
11:41 thd tumer: my hope is that Index Data would fix the obstacle first.
11:40 tumer thd:correct
11:37 thd tumer: if that is the problem, one of a general kind for Zebra, which I feared some months ago. If Zebra will not change then we need to build at least our own meta-indexing system which uses Zebra for at least storage if not some indexing.
11:34 thd tumer: is the problem that you have Zebra indexing by field instead of by record type so that Zebra is not matching 001 in a bibliographic record to 004 in a holdings record for indexing purposes?
11:29 thd tumer: I hope that you do not have the problem that dewey was repeating.
11:28 thd tumer: is the problem what dewey said?
11:27 dewey then the problem is, like, that you still want a unique call number for all the material that you have in the collection
11:27 thd tumer: what then is the problem?
11:27 tumer the problem still persists...
11:27 tumer whether in same or differnt databases
11:27 tumer thd: if i search on common indexes like biblionumber i retrive both biblio and the related holdings
11:25 thd ?
11:25 thd tumer: you have found that there is no way to cross index multiple databases or is the problem of combining the results from multiple databases in a single results set
11:25 tumer how will zebra know which holdings belong to which biblio to join them
11:24 tumer a record is a record separate entity
11:24 tumer zebra does not work that way
11:23 thd tumer: for speed
11:23 thd tumer: so you can search both as if they were in one record
11:23 tumer why do we need that?
11:22 thd tumer: the problem is that we need a way to create a common index for both holdings and bibliographic records while keeping the records separate
11:20 thd s/it should be/there should be a method/
11:19 thd tumer: certainly it can be done for results one page at a time but it should be reasonable to do for an arbitrary result set.
11:18 tumer well results upto 20-50 is bearable and i do it
11:17 thd tumer: yes that is a problem for a large result set
11:16 tumer for that i have to receive all the records and that is sometimes in 10,000+
11:16 thd tumer: how long if you run two separate searches and merge them with Perl instead of asking Zebra to do the work?
11:14 tumer once i receive bibliographic records to recursively search holdings
11:14 thd tumer: what could take half an hour?
11:13 tumer s/hor/hour
11:13 tumer and it could take houlf hor doing that i tried
11:13 tumer thd:004 i presume
11:12 tumer well if they are separate records and i search title=sometithing branch=MAIN i am bound to get 0 resuts
11:12 thd tumer: by specifying a search for 003 in holdings records taken from 001 in bibliographic records
11:11 thd tumer: yes the bibliographic record may have no holdings so then you have to search for linked holdings
11:10 thd tumer: use the branch as an additional search criteria as part of the query by inclusion or exclusion and you may need post processing if by inclusion.
11:09 tumer bibliograhic record does not hold branch or shelving info i thought
11:09 tumer search on a title i get 1000 results 100 of those are in a specific branch and i want those
11:08 thd kados: I have code for that
11:08 kados the problem is, depending on the leader field, the positions change in 008
11:08 thd tumer: my z39.50 client has no other choice but to solve merge issues on the fly
11:08 tumer where is branch where is shelf?
11:08 kados in zebra
11:07 kados cool
11:07 thd kados: yes and material type etc.
11:07 tumer thd is trying to solve merge issue on the fly
11:07 kados thd: detecting the format?
11:07 kados thd: what is this for?
11:06 thd $recFormat = 'bibliographic format';
11:06 thd if ($tag000_pos06 == 'a' || $tag000_pos06 == 'c' || $tag000_pos06 == 'd' || $tag000_pos06 == 'e' || $tag000_pos06 == 'f' || $tag000_pos06 == 'g' || $tag000_pos06 == 'i' || $tag000_pos06 == 'j' || $tag000_pos06 == 'k' || $tag000_pos06 == 'm' || $tag000_pos06 == 'o' || $tag000_pos06 == 'p' || $tag000_pos06 == 'r' || $tag000_pos06 == 't') {
11:06 thd if ($targetSyntax == 'MARC 21') {
11:06 kados hehe
11:06 tumer they are used to seeing them all in one line in LoC
11:06 thd tumer: well you search for records matching your criteria which are either holdings or bibliographic records and sort them out when you get the results back if you want both or limit the search if you only want one
11:05 tumer well according to prof lady no4 looks ok but she is not used to see them like that
11:04 shedges I was just trying to cheat!
11:04 shedges right -- I doubt that it is
11:04 kados tumer: :-)
11:03 kados shedges: I'm not sure the MODS description is positing an order
11:03 tumer kados:i am not very sure now
11:03 tumer thd: i am still not sure what u are saying. 2 separate marc records, how do you merge serach them?
11:02 thd shedges: is the topical subdivision no more important than the geographic subdivision in a topical subject?
11:01 tumer use LDR instead of number
11:01 tumer yes
11:01 kados tumer: if i ever knew I forgot
11:01 kados tumer: do you know how to index the leader in zebra?
10:58 thd }
10:58 thd $recType = 'serial item holdings';
10:58 thd } elseif ($tag000_pos06 == 'y') {
10:58 thd $recType = 'single-part item holdings';
10:58 thd } elseif ($tag000_pos06 == 'x') {
10:58 thd $recType = 'multipart item holdings';
10:58 thd } elseif ($tag000_pos06 == 'v') {
10:58 thd $recType = 'unknown';
10:58 thd if ($tag000_pos06 == 'u') {
10:58 thd $recFormat = 'holdings format';
10:58 thd } elseif ($tag000_pos06 == 'u' || $tag000_pos06 == 'v' || $tag000_pos06 == 'x' || $tag000_pos06 == 'y') {
10:58 tumer shedges's looks right
10:58 thd tumer you search for holdings by finding 000/06, please excuse the PHP syntax it is easy to convert to Perl
10:57 kados shedges: looking now
10:57 kados tumer: show that to your prof, see what he/she says :-)
10:57 kados tumer: http://kados.org/hierarchy.txt
10:56 tumer kados: number 4???
10:56 shedges http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/v3/mods-3-2-outline.html#subject
10:56 shedges (based on MODS, I guess)
10:55 shedges |->$v Pictorial Works.
10:55 shedges |->$z Chicago
10:55 shedges |->$z Illinois
10:55 shedges |->$x History
10:55 shedges $a Architecture
10:55 shedges kados: I'd say:
10:54 tumer thd: how do you search some title belonging to some branch?
10:54 kados tumer: so your prof chooses #4?
10:54 thd ?
10:54 thd tumer: why not put them in the same database in separate records and search by 000/06 to identify the holdings records
10:54 tumer $x$y$z change places
10:53 tumer $a alwys being first
10:53 tumer the order is the nesting in way
10:53 kados tumer: yes, I'm not proposing to change order ... just to nest each element properly
10:52 tumer thd:yes
10:52 dewey hi, thd
10:52 thd tumer: hello
10:52 tumer hi thd
10:52 tumer it has a meaning on stress
10:52 thd tumer: is the problem for separate holdings that you cannot bring multiple databases in the same result set?
10:52 tumer kados: my professor tells me you can not change the order as you wish if its created as $a $z$x it has to stay that way
10:51 thd kados: the actual string is merely a convention and should be malleable for taxonomy purposes as long as the meaning does not change
10:50 thd kados: so my proposal changes the order given for topical subjects with topical subdivisions which are subdivided geographically
10:48 kados thd: done
10:48 thd kados: take out a dash from Chicago
10:48 kados shedges: here's a puzzle for you: http://kados.org/hierarchy.txt
10:47 thd kados: and I indented Chicago too much
10:47 shedges kados: nope, not on the autocat list
10:47 kados fixed
10:46 kados oops
10:46 thd like the ones above
10:46 thd kados: the second line in your example 5 does not line up correctly
10:44 thd kados: that may change the order of some forms but not where it affects the meaning.
10:44 kados http://kados.org/hierarchy.txt
10:43 thd kados: my suggestion is that unless one the standard subdivision sequence is broken then keep the subdivision of the same kind (topic, $x, in this case) as $a with $a.
10:41 kados thd: I'm adding 5 to my liset
10:40 kados shedges: are you on the autocat list?
10:39 kados so that implies it's a pictoral history of Chicago Illinios ... but where does architecture come in?
10:39 kados yea, that's a goodun
10:38 kados ahh
10:38 thd |->$v Pictorial Works.
10:38 thd | |-->$z Chicago
10:38 thd |->$z Illinois
10:38 thd |->$x History
10:38 thd $a Architecture
10:38 thd 5.
10:38 kados thd: is it the 'don't attempt this at home' one? :-)
10:37 kados thd: which one is that? :-)
10:31 thd kados: I am going to change my vote and opt for answer 5 on the autocat list, the one that you did not offer as a choice.
10:21 thd good evening paul
10:21 toins bye paul !
10:21 thd tumer[A]: are you still there?
10:21 paul see you tomorrow kados
10:21 paul bye shedges, nice to read you
10:21 kados ciao paul
10:21 shedges bye paul
10:21 paul guys, I have to leave...
10:20 paul kados : the zoomopac is not ugly, it's for developpers ;-)
10:19 kados hehe
10:19 kados so hopefully he'll have some ideas
10:19 shedges OK, now I gotta look...
10:19 kados owen and I are gonna talk about it this week though
10:18 kados ahh ... that'd be me :-)
10:18 kados I only criticize :-)
10:18 shedges no, zoomopac
10:18 kados of evergreen? one of the PINES developers
10:17 shedges Who's doing the design for you?
10:17 kados (design wise)
10:17 kados evergreen's going quite well also: http://demo.gapines.org
10:16 kados s/out/our/
10:16 kados I've been comparing out OPAC design to the linkes of Amazon.com, ebay, google, and some of the nice OPACs out there
10:15 kados we need a new design :-)
10:15 kados I was hoping to get 2.3.1 rolled out yesterday but didn't quite get to it
10:15 shedges good deal!
10:15 kados http://zoomopac.liblime.com is maturing
10:15 kados mostly good work
10:15 kados but I hope to have some time soon to work on linking kohadocs.org up to CVS via rsynch
10:15 shedges good work? or busy work?
10:15 shedges no versioning support, of course, but a place to store them for retrieval
10:14 kados I'm totally swamped this week :(
10:14 kados cool
10:13 shedges I added image (binary) files for the Users Guide to CVS this weekend
10:13 shedges hey kados!
10:12 kados hey shedges , how's it going?
09:58 shedges From watching the Tour de France, I think ~all~ of France is hot this month!
09:58 paul & august won't be better probably :-(
09:58 paul fine, thx. although a little bit hot in Marseille this month
09:58 shedges hi paul -- how are you?
09:56 paul welcome here dear friend
09:56 paul hey, shedges is with us for a few minuts !
09:54 btoumi if there is only one i do :=)
09:54 toins ok
09:53 btoumi and i know u do it later
09:53 toins no problem
09:53 btoumi i don't change name of function because there is a lot of sub with bad name
09:52 toins yep
09:52 btoumi toins: are u around ?
09:50 hdl hi paul
09:50 paul hdl around ?
09:50 btoumi ty
09:48 btoumi paul: is it a good choice to use getbibliofromitemnumber from biblio.pm?
09:46 btoumi return all information form biblio,items biblioitems with an itemnumber
09:37 toins it's depend on what this function do exactly....
09:36 btoumi toins: is it righ*? ;=)
09:36 toins ;-)
09:36 btoumi and i now toins that whe must rename this function GetBiblioFromItemnumber
09:35 btoumi its => getbibliofromitemnumber
09:35 btoumi paul : yes it's in biblio.pm
09:29 btoumi ;=)
09:29 btoumi ok thanks
09:29 paul or maybe it will be in Biblio.pm
09:29 paul maybe it does not exist yet, but he will be created later ;-)
09:28 btoumi paul: u talk about Catalogue.pm can u tell me where is this module?
09:27 toins btoumi, I don't know
09:25 btoumi ?
09:24 btoumi toins where is Catalogue.pm
09:24 btoumi i suppose ;=)
09:24 btoumi bookseller.pm
09:23 btoumi strange i don't find Catalogue.pm
09:22 paul don't mind with this for instance, ToinS will solve it when it's code cleaning reaches this module !
09:22 btoumi ?
09:22 btoumi where i can find Catalogue.pm
09:21 btoumi i think so but i never work on this part of koha ,i look for equivalent function
09:21 paul so it should be the best place I think
09:20 paul Catalogue.pm has to be used for every catalogue related operation, except search & cataloguing.
09:20 btoumi i don't think to look in catalogue.pm
09:19 paul so it's proper place is Catalogue.pm, not in Circulation !
09:18 btoumi paul yes it's a fonction wo give all information about item
09:18 toins hehe
09:18 btoumi j'allais te le demander toins
09:18 tumer[A] i have kept it in modified API as well
09:17 toins btoumi, at least, it will be renamed to GetItemInformation
09:16 btoumi question for all . the sub getiteminformation (from Cir2.pm) will not disapear in futur?
08:41 kados k
08:39 tumer its too long what i think so i will write to you later
08:38 tumer paul:i think the problem is more than that of tabs
08:38 tumer thats normal during this period but not when we are issuing
08:38 kados paul: looking now
08:37 kados have you tried that?
08:37 kados I was hoping it would improve the speed
08:37 kados rather than after each change
08:37 kados only run a commit once every 10 minutes or so
08:37 kados I had an idea about using shadows
08:37 paul tumer & kados : could you answer my mail on koha-devel : "[Koha-devel] zebra config files : about default.idx" ?
08:37 tumer i tried it all it even gets slower
08:36 kados are you using shadow indexes?
08:36 tumer before the academic year
08:36 kados wow
08:36 tumer to catalogue 3000 books a day
08:36 kados koha? :-)
08:36 kados for what? holiday?
08:36 tumer special closure for a month
08:35 kados or has it never been open?
08:35 kados for summer?
08:35 kados ahh ...
08:35 tumer kados: currently circulation desk is closed
08:35 kados tumer: check-out / check-in
08:34 dewey issue is moot for geographic subjects 651 where is does not matter if $z comes between $z or not
08:34 tumer issue??
08:33 kados tumer: maybe even some sponsored development or something
08:33 kados tumer: before you waste all that effort, I'd ask ID if there is anything that can be done for merging result sets
08:33 kados tumer: do you issue items yet?
08:32 tumer that was one of the raesons trying to seperate items. I did it and i ahve to go back
08:31 tumer 40 cataloguers working at the same time and zebra cannot keep up
08:31 tumer i am experiencing lots of timeout from zebra while indexing
08:30 tumer i am very busy with the new system setup
08:30 kados thanks
08:30 paul s/it/if/
08:30 kados so that we can continue to use the standard module rather than branch our own version
08:29 kados to say 'this module has a major bug ... here it is ... here is the test that proves it ... here is the solution'
08:29 kados and someone needs to write to perl4lib
08:29 kados what we need is a small test case to prove that it's a problem
08:29 tumer also gets the characters decode(UTF8) and leaves it like that
08:29 kados ok ... so we have two people to confirm this
08:29 paul I agree with tumer it's probably a bug.
08:29 paul it runs a "decode" (from Encode perl package) to decode to utf8 something that already is utf-8
08:29 kados so I suppose I should trust you :-)
08:28 kados but I haven't had time to investigate too much
08:28 kados it's OOP so there are some other things happening in there
08:28 tumer it says if the leader says UTF8 convert from marc8 to UTF8 which is stupid
08:27 kados tumer: did you ask per4lib about whether it's a bug?
08:27 btoumi ok thanks all
08:27 paul (and in this case : "ive got it")
08:27 tumer even reading the script its obvious
08:27 paul btoumi: the usmarc.pm link
08:27 kados btoumi: it means 'I understand'
08:27 kados that clearly show the problem
08:27 btoumi paul: what is gotcha?
08:27 kados because there are no test cases that can be easily reproduced
08:26 kados and i can't get the maintainer's to agree there is a problem
08:26 kados is that I've spent so many long hours on it
08:26 paul ok, gotcha
08:26 kados the problem I'm facing with MARC::*
08:26 tumer oh yes attachemt to koha-devel
08:26 kados to the list
08:25 tumer kados: do you remember where i send usmarc.pm -to you was it
08:25 tumer kados: yaz-proxy does not merge just balances the work load between databases ý think
08:25 paul tumer: where is your fixed usmarc.pm ? I can't find it
08:25 kados tumer: asking them if what you want to do is possible
08:24 kados tumer: and write ID again (be sure to cc me) support@indexdata.dk
08:24 kados tumer: yaz-proxy may help you
08:24 tumer in MARC21 its more than 1 field 8.. for holdings
08:23 tumer but now in wain
08:23 tumer i wanted to reduce indexing time whith circulation data
08:22 tumer kados wants more MARC compliant behaviour
08:22 paul there is a standard for unimarc holdings as well, but "nobody" uses them, afaik
08:22 paul in France/UNIMARC, we use recommandation 995.
08:22 paul for me & my customers, it's useless today.
08:21 paul yas, thx. previously, we embeeded the items in MARC record. why MUST we change this behavious ?
08:21 tumer is it more clear?
08:21 tumer i cannot search title and branch and get a merged result
08:20 tumer even if i put them in same zebra db i cannot link them in zebra
08:20 tumer so we have a items marc and biblios marc
08:20 tumer well according to LoC if there is more than one item you are supposed to create separaete marc records for it and not embed it in
08:18 paul i'm afraid no
08:18 tumer can you follow me paul?
08:17 tumer we have to have separate holdings marc
08:17 paul ???
08:16 tumer yes but MARC definition does not allow that for multiple items
08:16 paul maybe there is no solution, except staying with biblio & item in the same zebra DB ?
08:15 tumer i could not find a solution and i am stuck
08:15 paul yep, i've seen your mail
08:15 tumer paul i have a problem with new db design. separating items resulted in not being able to search linked databases
08:14 kados I have been keeping notes there
08:14 tumer i have commited a new usmarc.pm corrected to koha cvs
08:14 paul ok kados.
08:13 kados paul: can you add a note (tumer too) about what you discover about encoding to the encodingscratchpad on the wiki?
08:13 tumer the problem with usmarc.pm is a bug
08:13 paul can you look at immediate logs ?
08:13 tumer hi paul.
08:13 paul hi tumer
08:11 kados is that the same line that Tumer commented out?
08:11 kados hmmm
08:11 paul if I comment $tagdata = ..., it works well
08:10 paul }
08:10 paul # $tagdata = marc_to_utf8( $tagdata );
08:10 paul warn "ENCODING $tagdata";
08:10 paul if ( $marc->encoding() eq 'UTF-8' ) {
08:10 paul in USMARC.pm, line 170 :
08:10 kados (I suspect the filehandle must be opened with utf8 flag set
08:09 paul I have investigated a lot, and found the culprit :
08:09 paul when I search in opac-zoom search, accented chars are shown as latin1 chars (a , instead of a é for example)
08:09 kados right
08:09 kados and instead use CCL
08:09 paul in zebra as well as in SQL
08:09 kados I will probably abandon use of PQF
08:09 paul my datas are in UTF-8
08:08 paul i have a last question
08:08 paul i've done some hacks for UNIMARC, but i'll have to synch with your recent commits...
08:08 kados I'm going to be making quite a few changes to make the code simpler
08:08 kados cool
08:08 paul my opac-zoomsearch works really fine.
08:08 paul hello kados
08:08 kados hi paul
08:05 paul hello btoumi
08:04 btoumi hi paul
07:18 kados and a submit
07:18 kados <input tyle="text" name="ccl_query"/>
07:18 kados </select>
07:18 kados <option value="keyword">
07:18 kados <select name="ccl_query">
07:17 kados this means that in the template I can have something like:
07:17 kados }
07:17 kados $ccl_query .= "$ccl ";
07:17 kados foreach my $ccl (@ccl_query) {
07:17 kados my @ccl_query = $query->param('ccl_query');
07:16 kados I just discovered it last night and it makes some hard things very easy
07:16 kados what I've been doing is actually quite simple
07:15 kados (haven't tested in IE, but it looks fine in FF and Safari)
07:15 kados what browser are you using?
07:14 kados ?
07:14 tumer zoomopac at liblime gives me only facets and no results
07:13 kados I would ping ID again ... they are supposed to respond quick quickly
07:13 tumer and by the way the new API is it this facets? I could not get it to work
07:13 kados ok ...
07:13 tumer you have not submitted anything from the zip file so i am keeping the new biblio and search until this case is solved
07:11 tumer until somebody comes up with some idea I am stuck
07:10 tumer yes, but for that we have to be able to link databases together say with biblionumber
07:04 kados what I think we need is 'merged result sets' functionality
07:03 tumer just a sec
07:03 kados yea?
07:03 tumer well i can do async mode search and search both items database and biblios database simultanously
07:02 kados hehe
07:02 tumer they seem to be on holiday
07:02 kados have you asked ID about this?
07:01 kados you will need to use yaz proxy I think
07:01 tumer i have tried all tricks i know but zebra does not do linked seraches
07:01 kados hmmm
07:00 tumer i can not search a title say in a specific branch
07:00 tumer well splitiing items from biblios has created a problem
06:59 tumer hi kados
06:58 kados tumer[A]: which new API? I just invented a new one last night :-)
06:58 kados tumer[A]: I'm here ...
05:18 tumer kados: u around? if not ping me when u are I have a big problem with the new API
05:17 tumer ok thanks
05:15 btoumi from issuingrules
05:15 btoumi and we don't calulate fines before the "after day"
05:14 btoumi after i do the sum
05:14 btoumi the second calculate how many day are like the repeatable day in the table
05:13 btoumi the first function return how many days there is between date due and date of the day
05:12 btoumi i create 2 function getspecials holidays and getrepeatableholydays
05:10 tumer btoumi:is that how you are doing as well
05:09 tumer the fines module comes into action after that
05:08 tumer so if the library is closed the date_due is given to next day automatically
05:08 tumer when we calculate a fine we do not use this module. The reason is we add days to date_due when issuing
05:07 btoumi because day closed depends the library
05:06 btoumi yes but i must work with table from holydays module
05:06 tumer calendar.pm already has those functions in it
05:05 btoumi taht why i don't anithing to u
05:05 btoumi tumer: i work on fines and i recreate the fines2.pl to use day non worked and special days and i create specials fonction to calculate that
05:03 tumer btoumi:did you sort your calendar scripts? you did not ask anything so i am assuming you did
04:59 btoumi toins are u around?
03:03 toins but still without DSL ...
03:03 btoumi chris: areu around?
03:03 toins I think he is at his office
03:02 hdl Is paul around ?
03:02 hdl helo
03:02 toins hello hdl !!!
03:01 btoumi ah ok good holidays?
03:01 hdl back from holidays
03:01 hdl hi.
03:01 btoumi hi hdl
02:41 btoumi trop dur pour dormir
02:24 toins ah oui... je connais ça aussi
02:24 btoumi ca va bien malgres les nuit a 30°c :=(
02:23 toins ?
02:23 toins et toi N
02:22 toins ca va
02:22 btoumi comment avs tu toins?
02:19 btoumi hi all
02:19 btoumi salut toins
02:17 toins salut bruno
02:00 toins hi all
20:12 thd kados: then there is no clean and obvious path so there is a computer recommendation made from key words found in the record and a human then confirms or corrects the recommended choice.
20:10 thd kados: the big problem with upgrading records from what I have read is what happens when one authorised heading is cancelled and replaced by two narrower ones.
20:09 thd s/library/libraries/
20:08 thd kados: OCLC is responsible for trying to upgrade many of the library records
20:07 kados :-)
20:06 thd kados: the report at http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/subdconf.html basically says that the problem is too big to fix but we will fix what we can afford to fix.
20:04 thd kados: I had been reading recently about much of the work which had received an impetus from the conference but I had not seen that conference as a starting point.
19:14 kados be back on soon
19:14 kados and with that, I'm heading back home
19:08 kados hehe
19:08 thd kados: wouldn't you want to attend that conference? :)
19:07 thd kados: I had been reading about the OCLC work on authority file strings. It seemed very impressive. It seemed to have started with an effort to fix spelling mistakes in subject headings in their union catalogue.
18:58 kados I can't believe they had a converence on subject subdivisions :-)
18:52 thd kados: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/subdconf.html
18:50 kados hopefully
18:48 thd kados: maybe someone on autocat will say or maybe Google has indexed the answer
18:47 thd kados: so it would be good to know if the recommendations of the Subject Subdivisions Conference from 91 were ever formally adopted
18:46 kados :-)
18:44 thd kados: it did help that I knew exactly what book to find and ran to the copy machine before they closed
18:43 thd kados: pretty good for ten minutes access to a library where I have no borrowing privileges
18:41 thd kados: I was right as I said about the second $z being subsidiary to the first. That is a common rule.
18:40 chris ok, lunch and a meeting for me, see you guys later, good luck with the subject ordering
18:40 thd just another reference to the 91 conference to fix all this and I guess when this book was published in 95 everyone was awaiting approval of their recommendations
18:39 thd oh there is more
18:39 chris hmm i think you are right thd
18:38 thd chris: was that not also the name of the probe with the indecipherable golden disk full of pictures and primes
18:38 kados heh
18:38 chris cover all our bases :-)
18:38 chris and just have them rearranging themselves constantly
18:38 chris is use some flash
18:38 chris what we could do
18:37 kados thd: I thought we were planning to try to determine the correct order
18:36 thd kados: it is not difficult if you presume that the existing records are correct and do not worry much about how to determine the correct order
18:36 chris yeah who names an ils after a space shuttle anyway
18:36 kados but shame on LOC for choosing voyager
18:36 kados thd: that's the idea :-)
18:36 chris yep
18:36 thd kados: so you build the tools to allow everyone to use it
18:34 thd chris: yesterday I saw an account of the problem where a user without specialised library training could never guess the pattern and then of course he could also never guess the authorised form but the correct terms can be found with indexing tracings and references in authority files.
18:32 kados pretty pointless to maintain a taxonomy that's only known by one group of people for which there exist no tools capable of making use of it
18:31 kados hehe
18:31 chris yeah, language isnt precise enough :-)
18:31 thd chris: Periodicals as used here might always be considered a form even if it is used as a topic as you say.
18:30 chris let alone the public to comprehend :)
18:30 chris :-)
18:30 thd chris, kados: "The instructions given in "Subject Cataloging Manual" have become so detailed and voluminous that they have become difficult for many outside the Library of Congress to apply."
18:29 chris which is what makes rules so tricky :)
18:28 chris although in the case above it is topic--topic--form .. as periodicals is the topic it just looks like topic--form--topic
18:27 thd chris, kados: now for the best sentence in the book
18:27 chris hi thd
18:26 thd hello chris
18:26 thd the first pattern is topic-form-topic where we previously had patterns given with form at the end
18:25 thd kados: note how the pattern in the first instance does not follow one of the common rule patterns given
18:24 chris yep quite different
18:24 thd kados: "For example. the heading Law--Periodicals--History is used for a history of law journals, and Law--History--Periodicals is used for journals about legal history."
18:22 thd kados: there is an example given here
18:21 thd than previously
18:21 thd kados: sometimes it makes a real difference to the meaning about how things are ordered and you can see the way subtle word changes in MARC 21 subfield names means something different
18:19 thd kados: but the order has semantic value
18:19 kados thd: continue :-)
18:19 kados thd: something I was working on
18:19 thd \kados: who they?
18:18 kados hmmm, they're not working :(
18:18 thd kados: there is a discussion about whether the order really matters in the era of key work matching
18:17 thd kados: page 400 is really good
18:17 kados http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
18:17 kados i added some cool options to the default facet:
18:08 thd kados: when you are back there is something informative from page 400
17:54 thd kados: I did not see it appear but the list is moderated so I would not expect the question to appear before Monday
17:53 kados be back soon
17:53 kados so I'm gonna go do that
17:53 kados I haven't eaten yet today
17:53 thd kados; that last bit was what I was trying to explain to you last night
17:53 kados I posted the question to autocat as well, dont' know if you saw that
17:53 kados good detective work thd!
17:52 kados that's good news
17:52 kados interesting
17:51 thd kados: the heading authority 008/06 tells us which to use.
17:50 thd kados: or topic--place--topic--time--form
17:50 thd kados: so with $x we have either topic--topic--place--time--form
17:49 thd kados: we do have guidance for choosing which but only if we have the authority file showing 008/06 or the printed guide of LCSH.
17:48 thd kados: when the string contains another topical element, $x, the elements may be arranged in one of the following orders
17:46 thd kados: then we have the rule from what john quoted yesterday
17:45 thd kados: then use topic--place--time--form
17:44 thd kados: rule 2 is for topical headings, 650
17:44 thd kados: the rule for that is when the subject string begins with a geographic heading, a 651
17:42 thd kados: I gave you place--topic--time--form yesterday
17:42 thd kados: this edition gives the two basic current patterns.
17:41 thd kados: there was a conference in 1991 which considered rectifying this problem for better machine readability
17:40 thd kados: that was from the beginning of a chapter section on subdivision ordering
17:39 thd kados it does get better
17:39 thd kados: this is from Chan 1995
17:36 kados wonderful :-)
17:35 thd "Thus there is considerable variation on this score in LCSH as it stands now."
17:34 thd "Even so what was done over the years was not always consistent."
17:34 thd "New headings were generally established according to existing patterns."
17:32 thd that would be the list of subject headings
17:32 thd "But in most cases, subject catalogers had to rely on arrangements already established in the list as a guide."
17:30 thd "Modern classification schemes contain instructions, called citation formulae."
17:29 thd kados: "until recently there were few stated instructions concerning this order"
17:27 thd kados: I am back
17:10 kados thd: I'm here