Time  Nick   Message
11:59 kados  well ... starting with $v
11:58 kados  still need to add the other sub subdivisions
11:58 kados  (almost)
11:58 kados  hehe
11:58 thd    kados: that looks like my secret experiment except for no checkboxes
11:58 kados  (though the font will need to be changed I think ...)
11:57 kados  thd: hopefull it's less confusing
11:57 kados  thd: I've removed the icons for now
11:30 kados  :-)
11:28 thd    kados: my own experiments did not have Icons so I did not have any icons to confuse me :)
11:26 kados  the icons must be changed to reflect more libraryish things anyway :-)
11:26 kados  yes, I see that now
11:25 thd    kados: so I was confused because they did not have a top level icon which I imagined would always be a folder
11:24 kados  s/or/of/
11:24 kados  all of the faceted results are pulled from the first page or results only (for now)
11:23 kados  yes
11:23 thd    kados: in the same result set?
11:23 kados  (root elements with no subdivisions)
11:23 kados  parallel to the folder
11:23 kados  they are $a
11:22 thd    kados: where do the subjects outside the folder originate?
11:20 kados  as our next test
11:20 kados  ok, now I'll do $v
11:19 thd    kados: most 650 $a can also be $x although they need a logical combination relating to the material catalogued
11:18 kados  do you understand now?
11:18 kados  I agree the root subjects should probably all have the same icon
11:17 kados  only the items inside the folder are subdivisions of a given subject
11:17 kados  how did you get that impression?
11:17 kados  it's not
11:17 kados  Operating systems is a $a
11:17 thd    kados: where did Operating systems come from as a subdivision of Kings and rulers?
11:16 kados  I don't think Operating systems is a branch of Kings and rulers
11:16 kados  ?
11:16 thd    kados: I chose one that is impossible Kings and rulers--Operating systems
11:15 kados  when you click on subdivision
11:15 kados  and it searches both
11:15 kados  Succession is the subdivision
11:15 kados  use Kings and rulers as an example
11:15 kados  not the ones I've tried
11:15 thd    kados: the searches search for the subdivision without including other parts of the hierarchy
11:12 kados  and searches should work too
11:12 kados  thd: ok ... $x is correctly nested now I think
11:09 thd    kados: do not say that you are a non-x even if that would be implied logically we know that two valued logic will not work well for answering what you are.
11:07 thd    kados: what are you, if you are not an x?
11:07 kados  should be done in about an hour
11:07 kados  yes, i know how now that I know how it's supposed to be
11:06 thd    kados: you need some loops and a test for $x
11:06 kados  thd: I'm not a programmer :-)
11:06 kados  thd: you code it :-)
11:06 thd    kados: what is difficult about a three level hierarchy even if the levels do change in the absence of $x.
11:04 thd    kados: and those are the ones which actually do something interesting as opposed to the ones that give you the whole search or the individual subdivisons without connecting them to the rest as you had done recently
11:02 thd    kados: most systems naively assume that everything is one hierarchy at successively lower levels
11:02 kados  the tricky part for me is how to code the hierarchy so it comes out correctly
11:02 kados  and that part is purely interface
11:01 kados  i do understand
11:01 thd    kados: do you understand why automatically including everything above one point is weak?
11:01 kados  thd: thd I'm still here
10:59 thd    kados: do you understand why automatically including everything above one point is weak?
10:58 thd    kados: sometimes removing the term would be good and sometimes removing the whole subdivision containing two repeated $z for example would be good
10:56 thd    kados: the user can remove a particular subdivision by unchecking the adjacent checkbox
10:54 thd    kados: much better would be to have a checkbox next to each element which is checked by default
10:53 kados  please explain what you mean
10:53 kados  ?
10:53 thd    kados: don't go yet: automatically including the previous elements is the week way that many implementations incorrectly imagine the hierarchy
10:52 kados  with those
10:52 kados  we can add the others anytime once we prove it's working properly
10:52 kados  for now I will only deal with a, x, and zyv
10:51 thd    kados: I am uncertain whether $b-$e branch from $a or elsewhere depending on how they are encoded but would say that the branch from whichever more important subfield preceeds them
10:49 kados  now I'll get coding :-)
10:49 kados  ok, great!
10:49 thd    kados:  $z $y and $v branch from $a if $x is absent otherwise they branch from $x
10:47 kados  but I still need to know where $z,$y,$v branch from ... is it $a or $x?
10:47 kados  and have each successive link automatically include the previous link when clicking
10:47 thd    kados: expanding the fully subdivided subject should bring up the hierarchy starting with $a
10:46 kados  I could attempt to represent the hierarchy as it exists
10:46 kados  I could do it several ways ...
10:46 kados  (are they branches off of $x?
10:46 thd    kados: you could have as the root node a fully subdivided subject which when the link is clicked will search the whole thing
10:45 kados  ie, how are $z, $y, $v related to $a?
10:44 kados  and should it be a branch directly from $a or from one of the others?
10:44 kados  and branch2 should or should not be automatically expanded?
10:44 thd    kados: yes only three levels
10:44 kados  root, branch1, branch2
10:44 kados  so there are three levels only
10:44 kados  ok
10:44 thd    kados: you have it I started with the 650 and it loaded as if everything were on the same level
10:44 kados  Ficting even :-)
10:43 kados    ->Fuction
10:43 kados    ->Succession
10:43 kados  Kings and rulers
10:43 kados  so our example would be:
10:43 kados  ok, I think I get it
10:43 kados  oops
10:43 kados     $y
10:43 kados      $z
10:43 thd    $a is not indented
10:43 kados    $x
10:42 kados    $e
10:42 kados    $d
10:42 kados    $c
10:42 thd    yes it is
10:42 kados    $b
10:42 kados  $a
10:42 kados  should not $a be the root of the tree
10:42 kados  I don't understand how $x can be parallel with $a
10:42 kados  hmmm ...
10:41 thd            $v
10:41 thd            $y
10:41 thd            $z
10:41 thd        $x
10:41 thd        $e
10:41 thd        $d
10:41 thd        $c
10:41 thd        $b
10:41 thd    650 $a
10:41 kados  let's stick with the common ones
10:41 thd    kados: ok now we have with the possible uncertainty of the place for $b-$e which are too uncommon for me to know well.
10:38 kados  ok :-)
10:38 thd    kados: let me start again I would have typed this already using vim
10:36 thd        ->$d
10:36 thd        $c
10:35 thd    [that should be only one level of indentation above]
10:35 thd        ->$b # I may have been wrong about my mistake and had it right the first time
10:32 thd    650 $a
10:32 thd    kados: the hierarchical order with the correction should be something like ,,,
10:31 thd    s/subject subdivisions/my ISBD preference/
10:30 thd    kados: I spent about ten hours one day on the subject subdivisions and never checked anything except for some annoying problems about the backwards design and the fact that it was a big improvement over the previous suggestion for a value which had ignored the ISBD rules
10:30 kados  ?
10:29 kados  (and the 'Fiction' entry links to all three)
10:29 kados  (wehre the 'Succession entry links to both 'Kings and rulers' and 'Succession')
10:29 kados  ?
10:29 kados   |-Fiction
10:29 kados   |-Succession
10:28 kados  Kings and rulers
10:28 kados  how do I represent the subjects properly in a tree?
10:28 thd    kados: and I have found a mistake in my ordering for one of those rare ones
10:28 kados  ?
10:28 kados    subdivision
10:28 kados  subject
10:28 kados  so there are only two levels?
10:27 thd    kados: the nesting is not continuous
10:26 kados  hmmm ... well the faceted results nest :(
10:26 thd    kados: no nesting is a little of a misnomer
10:25 thd    kados: if you look at my ISBD system preference, the usual order is specified for many fields when that was not overridden by an ISBD specified order
10:25 kados  etc?
10:25 kados         |-$d
10:25 kados     |-$c
10:25 kados  |-$b
10:25 kados  $a
10:25 kados  should they nest that way too?
10:24 kados  thanks
10:23 thd    kados: so the usual order at present for 650 seems to be $a, $b, $c, $d, $e, $x $z, $y, $v
10:21 thd    kados: you could create the previous table without authorities and you would primarily miss the ability to search without knowing what the correct authorised form is.
10:19 kados  first I'd like to get this working without authorities
10:19 kados  even if it works in 99% of the cases it would greatly simplify my task
10:19 thd    kados: you may not have that table but you could create one from bibliographic records alone without authorities
10:18 thd    kados: there is a usual preferred order which may have changed over time
10:18 kados  I don't have that table
10:17 kados  thd: (restricting ourselves to the 650 for now)
10:17 thd    kados: why could you not do the choose another parts you only need a table of which subdivisions go together
10:17 kados  thd: or should they always follow the order in which they appear?
10:17 kados  thd: how are the subject fields supposed to be ordered?
10:17 kados  thd: one thing I don't understand is
10:16 kados  but I can probably do the rest
10:16 kados  I'm not sure I can add the '[choose another subdivision]' bits
10:16 kados  you're nuts :-)
10:16 kados  hehe
10:16 thd    kados: to which you could add options for choosing other free floating subdivisions, geographic, and chronological, etc.
10:14 thd    	-> [choose another form subdivision]
10:13 thd    	-> Fiction [all with this and above]
10:12 thd    	-> [choose another subdivision]
10:12 thd    	-> Succession [all with this and above]
10:11 thd    Kings and rulers [all with at least this]
10:10 thd    kados: another set of links should be ...
10:09 thd    kados: you should have one link or linking mechanism that specifies that fully
10:08 thd    kados: use the example of Kings and Rulers--Succession--Fiction [1]
10:07 thd    kados: so let me explain what I think would be good here
10:07 kados  not yet
10:07 thd    kados: have you had any response about why the other is not working?
10:06 kados  so with some clever trickery we can trick zebra into giving us what we want with those links
10:06 kados  su="kings and rulers" and su="Succession" and su="fiction"
10:06 kados  this works btw:
10:06 thd    kados: one point is that it should have both
10:05 kados  ?
10:05 kados         -> Fiction
10:05 kados    -> Succession
10:05 kados  kings and rulers
10:05 kados  thd: Isn't that correct? or do you want it to expand even further to allow:
10:04 kados  thd: if you expand 'Kings and rulers' it shows 'Kings and rules Succession Fiction'
10:04 kados  I've been working with ID to fix it
10:04 kados  yes, that is a zebra problem
10:03 thd    kados: however, su = kings and rulers succession fiction fails
10:02 kados  hmmm ... no idea why we're losing that $x
10:02 kados  I see
10:02 kados  ahh
10:02 kados  system of the world doesn't
10:01 kados  k, I'll look
10:01 thd    kados: yes, the system of the world has a few
10:00 kados  (that should show up ... if it's not I have a coding bug somewhere)
10:00 kados  where?
10:00 kados  you did?
10:00 thd    kados: I found one 650 $a Kings and rulers $x Succession $v Fiction
10:00 kados  it still needs some work of course :-)
10:00 thd    oops
09:59 thd    kados: I found one 650 $a Kings and rulers $v Fiction
09:58 thd    kados: I see in this case there are now subdivided subjects really for the result set or I have not found them yet
09:56 kados  hehe
09:55 thd    kados: I had thought that was the point you were trying to make until I reminded myself that you did not have the data to make that point :)
09:55 kados  (bad example ) :-)
09:54 kados  (sorry :-))
09:54 kados  I'm working with ID to resolve it
09:54 kados  that is another one of those search anomolies
09:54 kados  ahh yes
09:54 kados  ?
09:53 thd    kados: but I see it would have had a '0' for the catalogue as a whole.
09:53 kados  what I'm asking is whether the actual results are allowing you to browse the subjects as you wanted
09:53 kados  but just a minor detail
09:52 kados  ahh ... yes, of course, that is a display issue
09:52 thd    the result number has disappeared past the table width
09:51 thd    yes
09:49 kados  please expand a bit
09:49 kados  and expand the first faceted subject result
09:49 thd    kados: I mean you have made the full form which was actually found disappear
09:49 kados  do a search on 'neal stephenson'
09:49 kados  for instance
09:48 kados  it may be that NPl doesn't have any of those though :-)
09:48 kados  thd: the browse path _is_ to a fully completed subject assignment with all subdivisions
09:48 thd    kados: do you see above?
09:48 kados  hello even :-)
09:48 kados  thd: helly
09:47 thd    kados: are you there?
09:46 thd    kados: a fully specified subject with all subdivisions should not disappear from a result set list.
09:45 thd    kados: A basic issue with what you have done is that I do not see how the user has a browse path to any fully completed subject assignment with all subdivisions.
09:43 thd    kados: that is close to what I had suggested as the least that might be done for subject displays.
09:42 thd    kados: that is very nice but not what I meant recently.
07:58 kados  faceted results I mean of course :-)
07:57 kados  thd: need you to verify it's working as expected
07:57 kados  thd: I believe I've done as you asked with the faceted searches ...
07:57 kados  thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com
07:57 kados  thd: you awake?
02:35 osmoze hello
17:36 chris  right
17:27 kados  first link works ... second one doesn't :(
17:27 kados  in related links
17:27 kados  http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=136919
17:17 chris  at least in nz thats the case
17:16 chris  its a process libraries like to use ... i think mostly cos what you order isnt always what you get, so they dont like to spend a bunch of time cataloguing it before they have it in their actual hand
17:15 chris  you want to either catalogue the rest, or hopefully use an existing record
17:14 chris  then when your order arrives
17:13 chris  usually just title, author, itemtype, isbn
17:13 chris  just a little record you make when you placing an order in full acquitisions
17:13 thd    chris: what is "the little placeholder"?
17:12 chris  so less than a days work
17:12 kados  right
17:12 kados  sweet
17:12 chris  plus a little change to placing reserves if gary says thats nessecary
17:11 chris  so its really just the issuing/returning and the postage labels to go
17:11 kados  sweet
17:11 chris  i got the list of reserves showing in the opac
17:11 chris  bummer
17:10 kados  still haven't head back from gary
17:10 chris  i will look at evergreen, and i will pester toins and paul
17:10 chris  just didnt want to spend the day thinking about things,and then find out someone has done it already :)
17:09 chris  cool, ill think some more and do a post to the list, and maybe a page on the wiki
17:08 kados  that makes sense
17:08 kados  right
17:07 chris  thats where the side by side thing comes in
17:07 chris  2/ fixing up full records with other newer/better full records
17:07 chris  where you just choose the new marc, choose the little placeholder and overwrite it totally, then add your barcode
17:06 chris  1/ simply replacing a holding record
17:06 chris  my 2 levels would be
17:06 kados  we need a good spec to work from
17:06 kados  right
17:06 chris  yeah was gonna mail the list, was just checking it didnt exisit already
17:05 kados  best bet might just be talking to paul/toins about that
17:05 chris  or 2 level process
17:05 chris  i think im gonna do a 2 setp
17:05 kados  in fact, what I"ve seen of opencataloger thusfar is pretty impressive
17:05 chris  yep
17:05 kados  is using the frameworks
17:05 chris  should get better now i hope
17:05 kados  one thing that's gonna be important
17:05 kados  cool
17:04 chris  yep
17:04 chris  ie i was planning to do something not tied to the existing marc editor
17:04 kados  we just don't have the resources to make them happen :-)
17:04 kados  this community has always had good ideas
17:04 kados  yea ... ++ on the opencataloger stuff
17:04 kados  wrap it around a Koha API
17:04 kados  so I bet you could nab their editor
17:04 kados  Evergreen's already done it
17:03 chris  because i want it to be able to work with opencataloguer too
17:03 kados  also ...
17:03 kados  that's the kind of thing you'd want to do in xul or something
17:03 chris  i was actually thinking a step before the editor
17:03 kados  cuz you're talking pretty major interface change
17:03 kados  might be a good time to look at the whole MARC editor
17:02 kados  but while you're at it ...
17:02 kados  that's how a lot of marc editors work
17:02 kados  yep
17:02 chris  i was thinking side by side
17:02 kados  I think
17:02 chris  yeah
17:02 kados  and prompt the user to approve changes
17:02 kados  what you want is to overlay stuff
17:02 chris  yep
17:02 chris  which can be used in head/dev_week/and 2.2
17:01 kados  well I'd do it with the MARC editor
17:01 kados  yep
17:01 chris  is build the interface first
17:01 kados  in the old koha it might be more tricky
17:01 chris  what i will try to do
17:01 chris  right
17:01 kados  with the bib number
17:01 kados  you just do a specialUpdate
17:01 kados  with zebra it is really simple
17:01 chris  well i have to do an estimate
17:01 kados  but ...
17:00 kados  we can't do it currently
17:00 chris  sweet
17:00 kados  look under critical enhancement requests
17:00 kados  http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha226bugs
17:00 kados  SMFPL need the same thing
17:00 chris  so before i go to write something to do it, i wanted to check we cant already do it in koha?
16:59 kados  yep, pretty common technique
16:59 chris  the way they would like the system to work is, they order items in full acquisitions, then when it arrives they get the marc record for it, and load it into the reserviour .. then they would like a way the marc bit to choose to replace a record with one from the reserviour
16:58 kados  cool
16:57 chris  one of the public libraries here in nz using koha are quite keen to do more copy cataloguing
16:57 kados  sure
16:57 chris  just want to run something past you for sanity checking before i post to the list
16:57 kados  chris: yep
16:56 chris  kados: u about?
16:26 kados  I agree
16:14 thd    kados: the MARC::* stuff has to be made to work if we are using it and Ed seems eager if there are good tests.
16:13 thd    kados: well If it does not work I will prod Ed summers to fix it.
16:12 kados  which we're still not 100% sure works
16:12 thd    kados: show me please, maybe I can adapt it in some way
16:12 kados  but it's suspect code because it relies on the MARC::* stuff
16:12 kados  yes
16:11 thd    kados: do you not have code for detecting encoding problems in records?
16:11 kados  but I have noticed the problem
16:11 kados  I don't have any code for that
16:11 kados  I didn't notice it :-)
16:02 thd    kados: does that mean you have no time for my question?
16:02 thd    kados: I thought that you were busy fixing all the problems in Koha :)
16:01 kados  thd: sorry ... super busy today
16:01 thd    kados: where did you go?
15:35 thd    kados: do you have some code that can be partly used for detecting encoding lies?
15:34 thd    kados: we need an encoding lie detector.
15:34 thd    kados: I have even noticed national libraries lying about the actual encoding, although, I have not noticed that for LC.
15:32 thd    kados: I have noticed during the past few days that some important Z39.50 targets have 000/09 which actually lies about the record encoding.
15:31 thd    kados: I have a question.
15:30 thd    kados: If it was not clear from earlier, the search links should match the whole subject as previously.  When there is some time, we could add support for mix and matching the individual subject subdivisions independently in an intelligent manner and not progressively in a crude manner.
15:26 thd    kados: if you read the MARC data from the marc_subfields instead of from the original Koha SQL bibliographic subfields you should not have any actual abstracts in your 245 $h.
15:23 thd    kados: 245 $h is the general material designation and had been misapplied for abstract in the original MARC 21 framework.
15:21 thd    kados: getMARCsubjects corrected that design mistake for subjects.
15:20 thd    kados: to join subfields in a particular order would be making the same design mistake which the original MARC Koha design had in proscribing the order instead of reading it from the record.
15:19 kados  yep
15:18 thd    kados: that code relied upon MARC in SQL but the same idea should work.
15:18 kados  and I think I can use that as a point of reference
15:17 kados  I looked at the getMARCsubjects code
15:17 kados  well ... I was ...
15:17 thd    kados: were you asking about a fast method of adding '--' subfield subdivisions?
15:17 kados  thd: yep
15:15 thd    kados: are you there?
15:15 thd    I am back
15:10 kados  ok, I've got an idea ... give me a sec
15:09 owen   There's no reason why it couldn't show up with the title
15:07 kados  (if so i can just add a new column to the biblioitems table for it)
15:07 kados  do we need to have it in it's own spot?
15:06 kados  can we just have the format show up as part of the title or something?
15:06 kados  but for the rest of the world, we shouldn't assume that they are mapping format to abstract
15:05 kados  so I just need to adjust that slightly
15:04 kados  yep ... but we've got a completely new framework now
15:04 owen   It was working before: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=171479
15:03 kados  and by they I mean we :-)
15:03 kados  I mean that they put format data into abstract
15:03 kados  so NPL musta co-opted abstract by calling it format
15:02 kados  I see
15:02 owen   The abstract is already showing up with the other notes
15:02 owen   I expect the data under "Format:" to be 245h
15:02 kados  well ... 'Summary' maybe
15:01 kados  maybe we just need to change the name of the label to 'Abstract'?
15:00 kados  owen: what should it be linked to?
15:00 kados  520 $a even
15:00 kados  and abstract is linked to 530 $a
14:59 kados  the field in the Format line is 'abstract'
14:25 kados  it's in 520 a
14:25 kados  huh ...
14:25 owen   Under "Format:" we're getting one of the notes fields
14:24 owen   Take a look at this: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=171479
14:24 kados  musta lost it with my last cvs update
14:24 kados  owen: oapcnav gone?
14:24 kados  owen: yep
14:24 owen   kados, are you still around?
13:56 kados  but it may be now
13:56 kados  last time I checked that wasn't available in the API
13:56 kados  ahh, right
13:50 owen   Average rating is there, but not individual reviewer ratings
13:50 kados  anything exposed in the API can be added
13:49 kados  but yea, we can add stuff
13:49 kados  rating should be there
13:49 owen   kados: are there additional options for what information can be displayed with the Amazon reviews? I'm thinking reviewer name, review date, and rating
13:37 kados  sorry
13:37 kados  hehe
13:37 owen   Finally!
13:35 kados  (too many damn synlinks :-))
13:34 kados  owen: how about now?
13:34 kados  owen: but note that next time I migrate they will need to be changed back
13:34 owen   Still no luck
13:34 kados  owen: as far as call numbers, if you want them to show up in the detail page, change 'classification' to 'dewey'
13:34 kados  and I'm gonna be working on refining support for the old API a bit today
13:33 kados  all search routines are now in Search.pm
13:33 kados  I've eliminated SearchMarc.pm now
13:33 kados  owen: yep, changed back now
13:31 owen   kados, when you get a chance could you look at permissions again
13:28 kados  hmmm ... maybe
13:23 owen   kados: I notice call numbers aren't appearing on the opac-detail page. Could that be what Gloria is talking about?