Time Nick Message 11:59 kados well ... starting with $v 11:58 kados still need to add the other sub subdivisions 11:58 kados (almost) 11:58 kados hehe 11:58 thd kados: that looks like my secret experiment except for no checkboxes 11:58 kados (though the font will need to be changed I think ...) 11:57 kados thd: hopefull it's less confusing 11:57 kados thd: I've removed the icons for now 11:30 kados :-) 11:28 thd kados: my own experiments did not have Icons so I did not have any icons to confuse me :) 11:26 kados the icons must be changed to reflect more libraryish things anyway :-) 11:26 kados yes, I see that now 11:25 thd kados: so I was confused because they did not have a top level icon which I imagined would always be a folder 11:24 kados s/or/of/ 11:24 kados all of the faceted results are pulled from the first page or results only (for now) 11:23 kados yes 11:23 thd kados: in the same result set? 11:23 kados (root elements with no subdivisions) 11:23 kados parallel to the folder 11:23 kados they are $a 11:22 thd kados: where do the subjects outside the folder originate? 11:20 kados as our next test 11:20 kados ok, now I'll do $v 11:19 thd kados: most 650 $a can also be $x although they need a logical combination relating to the material catalogued 11:18 kados do you understand now? 11:18 kados I agree the root subjects should probably all have the same icon 11:17 kados only the items inside the folder are subdivisions of a given subject 11:17 kados how did you get that impression? 11:17 kados it's not 11:17 kados Operating systems is a $a 11:17 thd kados: where did Operating systems come from as a subdivision of Kings and rulers? 11:16 kados I don't think Operating systems is a branch of Kings and rulers 11:16 kados ? 11:16 thd kados: I chose one that is impossible Kings and rulers--Operating systems 11:15 kados when you click on subdivision 11:15 kados and it searches both 11:15 kados Succession is the subdivision 11:15 kados use Kings and rulers as an example 11:15 kados not the ones I've tried 11:15 thd kados: the searches search for the subdivision without including other parts of the hierarchy 11:12 kados and searches should work too 11:12 kados thd: ok ... $x is correctly nested now I think 11:09 thd kados: do not say that you are a non-x even if that would be implied logically we know that two valued logic will not work well for answering what you are. 11:07 thd kados: what are you, if you are not an x? 11:07 kados should be done in about an hour 11:07 kados yes, i know how now that I know how it's supposed to be 11:06 thd kados: you need some loops and a test for $x 11:06 kados thd: I'm not a programmer :-) 11:06 kados thd: you code it :-) 11:06 thd kados: what is difficult about a three level hierarchy even if the levels do change in the absence of $x. 11:04 thd kados: and those are the ones which actually do something interesting as opposed to the ones that give you the whole search or the individual subdivisons without connecting them to the rest as you had done recently 11:02 thd kados: most systems naively assume that everything is one hierarchy at successively lower levels 11:02 kados the tricky part for me is how to code the hierarchy so it comes out correctly 11:02 kados and that part is purely interface 11:01 kados i do understand 11:01 thd kados: do you understand why automatically including everything above one point is weak? 11:01 kados thd: thd I'm still here 10:59 thd kados: do you understand why automatically including everything above one point is weak? 10:58 thd kados: sometimes removing the term would be good and sometimes removing the whole subdivision containing two repeated $z for example would be good 10:56 thd kados: the user can remove a particular subdivision by unchecking the adjacent checkbox 10:54 thd kados: much better would be to have a checkbox next to each element which is checked by default 10:53 kados please explain what you mean 10:53 kados ? 10:53 thd kados: don't go yet: automatically including the previous elements is the week way that many implementations incorrectly imagine the hierarchy 10:52 kados with those 10:52 kados we can add the others anytime once we prove it's working properly 10:52 kados for now I will only deal with a, x, and zyv 10:51 thd kados: I am uncertain whether $b-$e branch from $a or elsewhere depending on how they are encoded but would say that the branch from whichever more important subfield preceeds them 10:49 kados now I'll get coding :-) 10:49 kados ok, great! 10:49 thd kados: $z $y and $v branch from $a if $x is absent otherwise they branch from $x 10:47 kados but I still need to know where $z,$y,$v branch from ... is it $a or $x? 10:47 kados and have each successive link automatically include the previous link when clicking 10:47 thd kados: expanding the fully subdivided subject should bring up the hierarchy starting with $a 10:46 kados I could attempt to represent the hierarchy as it exists 10:46 kados I could do it several ways ... 10:46 kados (are they branches off of $x? 10:46 thd kados: you could have as the root node a fully subdivided subject which when the link is clicked will search the whole thing 10:45 kados ie, how are $z, $y, $v related to $a? 10:44 kados and should it be a branch directly from $a or from one of the others? 10:44 kados and branch2 should or should not be automatically expanded? 10:44 thd kados: yes only three levels 10:44 kados root, branch1, branch2 10:44 kados so there are three levels only 10:44 kados ok 10:44 thd kados: you have it I started with the 650 and it loaded as if everything were on the same level 10:44 kados Ficting even :-) 10:43 kados ->Fuction 10:43 kados ->Succession 10:43 kados Kings and rulers 10:43 kados so our example would be: 10:43 kados ok, I think I get it 10:43 kados oops 10:43 kados $y 10:43 kados $z 10:43 thd $a is not indented 10:43 kados $x 10:42 kados $e 10:42 kados $d 10:42 kados $c 10:42 thd yes it is 10:42 kados $b 10:42 kados $a 10:42 kados should not $a be the root of the tree 10:42 kados I don't understand how $x can be parallel with $a 10:42 kados hmmm ... 10:41 thd $v 10:41 thd $y 10:41 thd $z 10:41 thd $x 10:41 thd $e 10:41 thd $d 10:41 thd $c 10:41 thd $b 10:41 thd 650 $a 10:41 kados let's stick with the common ones 10:41 thd kados: ok now we have with the possible uncertainty of the place for $b-$e which are too uncommon for me to know well. 10:38 kados ok :-) 10:38 thd kados: let me start again I would have typed this already using vim 10:36 thd ->$d 10:36 thd $c 10:35 thd [that should be only one level of indentation above] 10:35 thd ->$b # I may have been wrong about my mistake and had it right the first time 10:32 thd 650 $a 10:32 thd kados: the hierarchical order with the correction should be something like ,,, 10:31 thd s/subject subdivisions/my ISBD preference/ 10:30 thd kados: I spent about ten hours one day on the subject subdivisions and never checked anything except for some annoying problems about the backwards design and the fact that it was a big improvement over the previous suggestion for a value which had ignored the ISBD rules 10:30 kados ? 10:29 kados (and the 'Fiction' entry links to all three) 10:29 kados (wehre the 'Succession entry links to both 'Kings and rulers' and 'Succession') 10:29 kados ? 10:29 kados |-Fiction 10:29 kados |-Succession 10:28 kados Kings and rulers 10:28 kados how do I represent the subjects properly in a tree? 10:28 thd kados: and I have found a mistake in my ordering for one of those rare ones 10:28 kados ? 10:28 kados subdivision 10:28 kados subject 10:28 kados so there are only two levels? 10:27 thd kados: the nesting is not continuous 10:26 kados hmmm ... well the faceted results nest :( 10:26 thd kados: no nesting is a little of a misnomer 10:25 thd kados: if you look at my ISBD system preference, the usual order is specified for many fields when that was not overridden by an ISBD specified order 10:25 kados etc? 10:25 kados |-$d 10:25 kados |-$c 10:25 kados |-$b 10:25 kados $a 10:25 kados should they nest that way too? 10:24 kados thanks 10:23 thd kados: so the usual order at present for 650 seems to be $a, $b, $c, $d, $e, $x $z, $y, $v 10:21 thd kados: you could create the previous table without authorities and you would primarily miss the ability to search without knowing what the correct authorised form is. 10:19 kados first I'd like to get this working without authorities 10:19 kados even if it works in 99% of the cases it would greatly simplify my task 10:19 thd kados: you may not have that table but you could create one from bibliographic records alone without authorities 10:18 thd kados: there is a usual preferred order which may have changed over time 10:18 kados I don't have that table 10:17 kados thd: (restricting ourselves to the 650 for now) 10:17 thd kados: why could you not do the choose another parts you only need a table of which subdivisions go together 10:17 kados thd: or should they always follow the order in which they appear? 10:17 kados thd: how are the subject fields supposed to be ordered? 10:17 kados thd: one thing I don't understand is 10:16 kados but I can probably do the rest 10:16 kados I'm not sure I can add the '[choose another subdivision]' bits 10:16 kados you're nuts :-) 10:16 kados hehe 10:16 thd kados: to which you could add options for choosing other free floating subdivisions, geographic, and chronological, etc. 10:14 thd -> [choose another form subdivision] 10:13 thd -> Fiction [all with this and above] 10:12 thd -> [choose another subdivision] 10:12 thd -> Succession [all with this and above] 10:11 thd Kings and rulers [all with at least this] 10:10 thd kados: another set of links should be ... 10:09 thd kados: you should have one link or linking mechanism that specifies that fully 10:08 thd kados: use the example of Kings and Rulers--Succession--Fiction  10:07 thd kados: so let me explain what I think would be good here 10:07 kados not yet 10:07 thd kados: have you had any response about why the other is not working? 10:06 kados so with some clever trickery we can trick zebra into giving us what we want with those links 10:06 kados su="kings and rulers" and su="Succession" and su="fiction" 10:06 kados this works btw: 10:06 thd kados: one point is that it should have both 10:05 kados ? 10:05 kados -> Fiction 10:05 kados -> Succession 10:05 kados kings and rulers 10:05 kados thd: Isn't that correct? or do you want it to expand even further to allow: 10:04 kados thd: if you expand 'Kings and rulers' it shows 'Kings and rules Succession Fiction' 10:04 kados I've been working with ID to fix it 10:04 kados yes, that is a zebra problem 10:03 thd kados: however, su = kings and rulers succession fiction fails 10:02 kados hmmm ... no idea why we're losing that $x 10:02 kados I see 10:02 kados ahh 10:02 kados system of the world doesn't 10:01 kados k, I'll look 10:01 thd kados: yes, the system of the world has a few 10:00 kados (that should show up ... if it's not I have a coding bug somewhere) 10:00 kados where? 10:00 kados you did? 10:00 thd kados: I found one 650 $a Kings and rulers $x Succession $v Fiction 10:00 kados it still needs some work of course :-) 10:00 thd oops 09:59 thd kados: I found one 650 $a Kings and rulers $v Fiction 09:58 thd kados: I see in this case there are now subdivided subjects really for the result set or I have not found them yet 09:56 kados hehe 09:55 thd kados: I had thought that was the point you were trying to make until I reminded myself that you did not have the data to make that point :) 09:55 kados (bad example ) :-) 09:54 kados (sorry :-)) 09:54 kados I'm working with ID to resolve it 09:54 kados that is another one of those search anomolies 09:54 kados ahh yes 09:54 kados ? 09:53 thd kados: but I see it would have had a '0' for the catalogue as a whole. 09:53 kados what I'm asking is whether the actual results are allowing you to browse the subjects as you wanted 09:53 kados but just a minor detail 09:52 kados ahh ... yes, of course, that is a display issue 09:52 thd the result number has disappeared past the table width 09:51 thd yes 09:49 kados please expand a bit 09:49 kados and expand the first faceted subject result 09:49 thd kados: I mean you have made the full form which was actually found disappear 09:49 kados do a search on 'neal stephenson' 09:49 kados for instance 09:48 kados it may be that NPl doesn't have any of those though :-) 09:48 kados thd: the browse path _is_ to a fully completed subject assignment with all subdivisions 09:48 thd kados: do you see above? 09:48 kados hello even :-) 09:48 kados thd: helly 09:47 thd kados: are you there? 09:46 thd kados: a fully specified subject with all subdivisions should not disappear from a result set list. 09:45 thd kados: A basic issue with what you have done is that I do not see how the user has a browse path to any fully completed subject assignment with all subdivisions. 09:43 thd kados: that is close to what I had suggested as the least that might be done for subject displays. 09:42 thd kados: that is very nice but not what I meant recently. 07:58 kados faceted results I mean of course :-) 07:57 kados thd: need you to verify it's working as expected 07:57 kados thd: I believe I've done as you asked with the faceted searches ... 07:57 kados thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com 07:57 kados thd: you awake? 02:35 osmoze hello 17:36 chris right 17:27 kados first link works ... second one doesn't :( 17:27 kados in related links 17:27 kados http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=136919 17:17 chris at least in nz thats the case 17:16 chris its a process libraries like to use ... i think mostly cos what you order isnt always what you get, so they dont like to spend a bunch of time cataloguing it before they have it in their actual hand 17:15 chris you want to either catalogue the rest, or hopefully use an existing record 17:14 chris then when your order arrives 17:13 chris usually just title, author, itemtype, isbn 17:13 chris just a little record you make when you placing an order in full acquitisions 17:13 thd chris: what is "the little placeholder"? 17:12 chris so less than a days work 17:12 kados right 17:12 kados sweet 17:12 chris plus a little change to placing reserves if gary says thats nessecary 17:11 chris so its really just the issuing/returning and the postage labels to go 17:11 kados sweet 17:11 chris i got the list of reserves showing in the opac 17:11 chris bummer 17:10 kados still haven't head back from gary 17:10 chris i will look at evergreen, and i will pester toins and paul 17:10 chris just didnt want to spend the day thinking about things,and then find out someone has done it already :) 17:09 chris cool, ill think some more and do a post to the list, and maybe a page on the wiki 17:08 kados that makes sense 17:08 kados right 17:07 chris thats where the side by side thing comes in 17:07 chris 2/ fixing up full records with other newer/better full records 17:07 chris where you just choose the new marc, choose the little placeholder and overwrite it totally, then add your barcode 17:06 chris 1/ simply replacing a holding record 17:06 chris my 2 levels would be 17:06 kados we need a good spec to work from 17:06 kados right 17:06 chris yeah was gonna mail the list, was just checking it didnt exisit already 17:05 kados best bet might just be talking to paul/toins about that 17:05 chris or 2 level process 17:05 chris i think im gonna do a 2 setp 17:05 kados in fact, what I"ve seen of opencataloger thusfar is pretty impressive 17:05 chris yep 17:05 kados is using the frameworks 17:05 chris should get better now i hope 17:05 kados one thing that's gonna be important 17:05 kados cool 17:04 chris yep 17:04 chris ie i was planning to do something not tied to the existing marc editor 17:04 kados we just don't have the resources to make them happen :-) 17:04 kados this community has always had good ideas 17:04 kados yea ... ++ on the opencataloger stuff 17:04 kados wrap it around a Koha API 17:04 kados so I bet you could nab their editor 17:04 kados Evergreen's already done it 17:03 chris because i want it to be able to work with opencataloguer too 17:03 kados also ... 17:03 kados that's the kind of thing you'd want to do in xul or something 17:03 chris i was actually thinking a step before the editor 17:03 kados cuz you're talking pretty major interface change 17:03 kados might be a good time to look at the whole MARC editor 17:02 kados but while you're at it ... 17:02 kados that's how a lot of marc editors work 17:02 kados yep 17:02 chris i was thinking side by side 17:02 kados I think 17:02 chris yeah 17:02 kados and prompt the user to approve changes 17:02 kados what you want is to overlay stuff 17:02 chris yep 17:02 chris which can be used in head/dev_week/and 2.2 17:01 kados well I'd do it with the MARC editor 17:01 kados yep 17:01 chris is build the interface first 17:01 kados in the old koha it might be more tricky 17:01 chris what i will try to do 17:01 chris right 17:01 kados with the bib number 17:01 kados you just do a specialUpdate 17:01 kados with zebra it is really simple 17:01 chris well i have to do an estimate 17:01 kados but ... 17:00 kados we can't do it currently 17:00 chris sweet 17:00 kados look under critical enhancement requests 17:00 kados http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha226bugs 17:00 kados SMFPL need the same thing 17:00 chris so before i go to write something to do it, i wanted to check we cant already do it in koha? 16:59 kados yep, pretty common technique 16:59 chris the way they would like the system to work is, they order items in full acquisitions, then when it arrives they get the marc record for it, and load it into the reserviour .. then they would like a way the marc bit to choose to replace a record with one from the reserviour 16:58 kados cool 16:57 chris one of the public libraries here in nz using koha are quite keen to do more copy cataloguing 16:57 kados sure 16:57 chris just want to run something past you for sanity checking before i post to the list 16:57 kados chris: yep 16:56 chris kados: u about? 16:26 kados I agree 16:14 thd kados: the MARC::* stuff has to be made to work if we are using it and Ed seems eager if there are good tests. 16:13 thd kados: well If it does not work I will prod Ed summers to fix it. 16:12 kados which we're still not 100% sure works 16:12 thd kados: show me please, maybe I can adapt it in some way 16:12 kados but it's suspect code because it relies on the MARC::* stuff 16:12 kados yes 16:11 thd kados: do you not have code for detecting encoding problems in records? 16:11 kados but I have noticed the problem 16:11 kados I don't have any code for that 16:11 kados I didn't notice it :-) 16:02 thd kados: does that mean you have no time for my question? 16:02 thd kados: I thought that you were busy fixing all the problems in Koha :) 16:01 kados thd: sorry ... super busy today 16:01 thd kados: where did you go? 15:35 thd kados: do you have some code that can be partly used for detecting encoding lies? 15:34 thd kados: we need an encoding lie detector. 15:34 thd kados: I have even noticed national libraries lying about the actual encoding, although, I have not noticed that for LC. 15:32 thd kados: I have noticed during the past few days that some important Z39.50 targets have 000/09 which actually lies about the record encoding. 15:31 thd kados: I have a question. 15:30 thd kados: If it was not clear from earlier, the search links should match the whole subject as previously. When there is some time, we could add support for mix and matching the individual subject subdivisions independently in an intelligent manner and not progressively in a crude manner. 15:26 thd kados: if you read the MARC data from the marc_subfields instead of from the original Koha SQL bibliographic subfields you should not have any actual abstracts in your 245 $h. 15:23 thd kados: 245 $h is the general material designation and had been misapplied for abstract in the original MARC 21 framework. 15:21 thd kados: getMARCsubjects corrected that design mistake for subjects. 15:20 thd kados: to join subfields in a particular order would be making the same design mistake which the original MARC Koha design had in proscribing the order instead of reading it from the record. 15:19 kados yep 15:18 thd kados: that code relied upon MARC in SQL but the same idea should work. 15:18 kados and I think I can use that as a point of reference 15:17 kados I looked at the getMARCsubjects code 15:17 kados well ... I was ... 15:17 thd kados: were you asking about a fast method of adding '--' subfield subdivisions? 15:17 kados thd: yep 15:15 thd kados: are you there? 15:15 thd I am back 15:10 kados ok, I've got an idea ... give me a sec 15:09 owen There's no reason why it couldn't show up with the title 15:07 kados (if so i can just add a new column to the biblioitems table for it) 15:07 kados do we need to have it in it's own spot? 15:06 kados can we just have the format show up as part of the title or something? 15:06 kados but for the rest of the world, we shouldn't assume that they are mapping format to abstract 15:05 kados so I just need to adjust that slightly 15:04 kados yep ... but we've got a completely new framework now 15:04 owen It was working before: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=171479 15:03 kados and by they I mean we :-) 15:03 kados I mean that they put format data into abstract 15:03 kados so NPL musta co-opted abstract by calling it format 15:02 kados I see 15:02 owen The abstract is already showing up with the other notes 15:02 owen I expect the data under "Format:" to be 245h 15:02 kados well ... 'Summary' maybe 15:01 kados maybe we just need to change the name of the label to 'Abstract'? 15:00 kados owen: what should it be linked to? 15:00 kados 520 $a even 15:00 kados and abstract is linked to 530 $a 14:59 kados the field in the Format line is 'abstract' 14:25 kados it's in 520 a 14:25 kados huh ... 14:25 owen Under "Format:" we're getting one of the notes fields 14:24 owen Take a look at this: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=171479 14:24 kados musta lost it with my last cvs update 14:24 kados owen: oapcnav gone? 14:24 kados owen: yep 14:24 owen kados, are you still around? 13:56 kados but it may be now 13:56 kados last time I checked that wasn't available in the API 13:56 kados ahh, right 13:50 owen Average rating is there, but not individual reviewer ratings 13:50 kados anything exposed in the API can be added 13:49 kados but yea, we can add stuff 13:49 kados rating should be there 13:49 owen kados: are there additional options for what information can be displayed with the Amazon reviews? I'm thinking reviewer name, review date, and rating 13:37 kados sorry 13:37 kados hehe 13:37 owen Finally! 13:35 kados (too many damn synlinks :-)) 13:34 kados owen: how about now? 13:34 kados owen: but note that next time I migrate they will need to be changed back 13:34 owen Still no luck 13:34 kados owen: as far as call numbers, if you want them to show up in the detail page, change 'classification' to 'dewey' 13:34 kados and I'm gonna be working on refining support for the old API a bit today 13:33 kados all search routines are now in Search.pm 13:33 kados I've eliminated SearchMarc.pm now 13:33 kados owen: yep, changed back now 13:31 owen kados, when you get a chance could you look at permissions again 13:28 kados hmmm ... maybe 13:23 owen kados: I notice call numbers aren't appearing on the opac-detail page. Could that be what Gloria is talking about?