Time Nick Message 11:02 hdl bye osmoze 11:02 osmoze e 11:02 hdl bon apettit. 11:02 osmoze by all 11:00 kados now, for some breakfast 11:00 kados unless chris got to it while I was sleeping 11:00 kados but the code's not there I don't think 11:00 kados well, the index now supports sort by Dewey 10:54 pierrick sort on Dewey you mean ? I saw something like that in CVS 10:53 hdl (kados and chris) 10:53 hdl Great ! 10:52 kados cool 10:52 pierrick thursday, I'm visiting a big customer to see what is the usual work of INEO 10:52 kados BTW, hdl and pierrick, chris and I got perl-zoom to sort last night 10:51 pierrick :-) not a high priority, do it when you have time 10:51 kados and about extension manager, maybe we can discuss it on Thursday? (today I'm strapped for time and tomorrow I have a demo of perl-zoom for NPL) 10:51 kados I will try to find the time today 10:51 kados sure 10:50 pierrick kados: if you answer to my mail about QA management, could you explain what *you* are expecting from a QA manager please? 10:48 kados I think 100$a is the 'one' to link 10:34 hdl unless results could be quite awful. 10:34 hdl But when linking to Koha NonMARC field, I know only ONE MARC-subfield should be linked. 10:32 kados hdl: thd is the expert, I just dabble :-) 10:32 hdl That is why I am quit confused. 10:32 hdl kados: For our customers, what is commonly used is 200$f which could be related to your 245$c 10:29 pierrick kados: when you have time and if you're still interested, you can ask m about the extension manager... 10:20 kados 245$c puts author as it appears on title page of the book 10:20 kados 700$a is where additional authors go 10:19 kados but 100$a is the most important one 10:19 kados hdl: there are more than three :-) 10:19 hdl kados or thd : For authors, you can have up to Three major subfields : 100$a, 245$c and 700$a, what is the rule ? 10:17 pierrick (hi hdl) 10:16 pierrick If I didn't, nobody did it I suppose 10:16 hdl hi kados 10:16 pierrick who did ? 10:16 pierrick did you test the commits I made ? 10:16 pierrick IMO, we can't garantee the 100% stability having such an open development model 10:15 kados ahh ... yes the customer who sponsored a feature should be heavily involved in QA testing, I agree 10:14 pierrick oh OK :-/ 10:14 pierrick I didn't mean no QA testing, I mean QA testing with involved customers 10:14 kados Koha is not like many other OSS applications because it is actually quite difficult to convince a library to use it :-) 10:13 kados ahh 10:13 pierrick I saw Paul his morning just to say hello, he won't be online until friday 10:13 kados one problem I forsee with no QA testing is that many clients don't want to run buggy software to discover the bugs 10:12 kados yep ... 10:12 pierrick very personnal point a view, need to be discussed 10:12 pierrick kados: thanks :-) 10:12 kados pierrick: nice email sent to koha-devel 10:11 pierrick Joshua even 10:11 pierrick hello Johsua 10:11 kados morning all 09:34 pierrick thd: I've answered your question about proprietary Vs OSS regarding QA, on koha-devel 04:27 hdl bonjour osmoze 04:14 osmoze bonjour :) 00:21 thd unfortunately frames retard sharing links 00:21 kados thd: not yet, but I'll give it a show asap 00:20 thd kados there may be something in Cataloger's Desktop. Have you tried using it? 00:18 kados thd: nice, thanks! 00:18 thd http://library.ucr.edu/?view=departments/cataloging/tools/initiala.html 00:18 thd For languages: Arabic, Dutch, English, French, German, Hebrew, Hungarian, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Yiddish 00:18 thd kados: INITIAL ARTICLES 23:46 rach well persuading 23:46 rach good work on presuring perick into taking on qa :-) 23:34 kados thd: yes, thanks :-) 23:34 thd kados: did you miss 'an'? 23:13 kados heh 23:09 thd horay and I could not find the rule in my old printed copy of AACR2, suggesting that it was a MARC and systems question at least in 1978. 23:05 kados w00t, got that working already 23:05 kados thd: so just articles The and a then 23:05 kados from: http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/en/7xx/793.shtm 23:05 kados Any diacritical mark or special character associated with the first filing character is not included in the count of nonfiling characters. 23:05 kados 1-9 Number of nonfiling characters present. A field begins with a definite or indefinite article that is disregarded in sorting and filing processes. Enter the number of characters in the article, plus spaces, punctuation, diacritical marks and special characters that precede the first significant word. 23:04 kados prepositions ... you sure? 23:03 thd kados:s/prepositions/articles/ 23:01 kados yep 23:01 thd kados: I think it is simple in English but French is tricky because they contract their prepositions 22:59 thd kados: there may be an AACR list for both possibilities as the answer would be the same. 22:58 kados thd: no, I'm talking about a zebra configuration file that specifies which words to omit for sorting 22:58 thd kados: so are you speaking about a plugin for setting that position in the editor when creating an original record? 22:57 kados thd: we need to rely on a list of words that should be ommitted for sorting (but not for searching) 22:57 kados thd: we can't do that with zebra 22:57 thd kados: you use the indicator position if you are reading a preexisting record 22:56 kados (not stopwords but rather words that are not used for sorting) 22:56 kados thd: The the a A obviously, any others? 22:56 kados thd: do you happen to know if there is an authoritative list of non-filing words/characters for MARC21 in English? 22:52 kados ok 22:52 thd kados: let us leave the other question until tomorrow if you will have some time then when you are fully awake 22:52 kados thd: I've got several clients that need some love this week :-) 22:52 kados thd: but that plugin will be a weekend job unfortunately :-) 22:52 kados thd: I agree the cataloger should hardly have to add anything but the barcode 22:51 kados thd: barely :-) 22:51 thd kados: are you still awake? 22:51 kados thd: kindasorta 22:48 thd kados: are you still there? 22:47 thd kados: so if the appropriate subfields are minimised for items or not appearing then the cataloguer should not have to do much more than scan in a preprinted barcode as anything else relevant such as holding branch can be set from context unless all cataloguing is centralised. 22:40 thd obviously LC is not exporting records with 03 but that may be Eneavor Voyager's fault. 22:38 kados ok 22:37 thd however 003 is mandatory within the system. http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0002.htm 22:35 thd after I changed it back earlier :) 22:34 thd only by the Koha framework 22:34 thd although barcodes are not required by MARC 22:33 thd kados: certainly different copies would need different barcodes where preprinted barcodes are usually the most efficient with scanning them in rather than trying to print a known number. 22:31 thd kados: the spine label would be 741.53\nA54\nc. 2 22:29 thd kados:852 $h741.53$iA54$t2 22:27 thd kados: 741.53 A54 copy 2 22:26 thd so a copy number usually establishes the item 22:25 thd kados: classification subfields should cascade from the front of the record maybe a value list for JUV prefix or appending the copy number after the suffix or something might be needed but then there is no need do anything for items.itemcallnumber because that would auto-fill from concatenating the other subfields with space or slash separation. 22:22 kados thd: unless they want item-level classification 22:21 thd kados: the cataloguer should not even need to fill any classification fields for copy catalogued records 22:20 thd kados: several of the subfields should be filled by a plugins so there is no work for the catalaloguer 22:18 kados I think those 6 fields are all that are needed 22:18 kados homebranch/holdingbranch, cost, classification, date acquired, public note 22:18 thd kados: everything in a single field gives false matches when you want to search only the classification hierarchy and not the silly number that distinguishes multiple biblios occurring in the same place 22:17 kados I think a minimal holdings and classification system is needed to deal with this case 22:17 kados in simple cases, like the client I'm working with now, there are only a few hundred items in the collection 22:16 thd kados: the splitting allows treating the separate elements separately and it is certainly an advantage for searching 22:16 kados but why split it up? why not just have everything in a single field? 22:15 thd $b is a number to distinguish a particular title from all the other titles sharing the same place in the classification system and is usually derived form the author's last name according to rules in a table 22:14 kados what is the purpose of splitting up the classification in the record, is there any advantage other than that's the standard way to represent it? 22:13 thd kados: $a is the classification number for the base classification 22:12 thd kados: It had the defect of being limited to one subfield when what you would want is 050 $a space $b 22:11 kados thd: as with MARC subjects, I'm very confused about how classifications are supposed to work 22:11 thd kados: no it does nothing now but formerly you could set 050a in the preference and it would fill half of the LC call number in whatever field/subfield had been set to item.itemscallnumber 22:10 kados that only affected encoding 22:10 kados because I've never edited additem.pl or .tmpl except one minor change 22:10 kados well actually, I don't see how 22:10 kados hmmm 22:09 kados that could be 22:09 kados thd: hmmm ... 22:09 thd kados: I had suspected your great bugfixes to the editor of breaking it 22:09 kados thd: it doesn't do that now? 22:09 thd kados: it did until quite recently fill items.itemcallnumber with the contents of whatever field/subfield was given in the preference 22:08 kados thd: or how to relate his syspref to the 952 spec you created 22:07 kados thd: paul has a syspref for itemcallnumber but I'm not clear on what it's supposed to do 22:07 thd ok 22:07 thd kados: stared at the problem and it evaporated 22:07 kados thd: what I'd like to discuss is itemcallnumber if you have a couple of minutes 22:06 kados thd: nevermind that, I've got it resolved 22:06 thd kados: what are you seeing that I did not or that I did? 20:34 russ wrong # 20:34 russ ack 20:33 russ mason - what is the uid/pass for http://koha.hollows.katipo.co.nz/cgi-bin/koha/mainpage.pl 17:58 kados thd: barely 17:57 thd kados: are you around? 17:26 thd good night pierrick 17:25 pierrick OK, it's 22h24 here, I go back home to help my wife and the baby, good night #koha :-) 17:24 thd kados must have wandered already as he is too busy today 17:23 pierrick (I've got nothing to add) 17:23 pierrick meeting status ? 17:22 thd of course I have not seen the announcement notice that you would have sent 17:21 pierrick thd: but I may be wrong, we'll see on May, 2nd :-) 17:21 thd pierrick: yes you are correct 17:21 pierrick thd: it's not how I understood this meeting, IMO it was for potential customer, and BNF is not a potential customer 17:21 thd pierrick: They should have some computer systems person who is curious 17:20 pierrick BNF ??? I can't be 100% sure but I don't think so 17:19 thd perrick: will no one from BNF be there? 17:16 paul bye all. 17:16 pierrick paul: and see you tomorrow :-) 17:16 pierrick thd: INEO expects that too, but not biggest libraries 17:16 hdl good night paul 17:16 thd good night paul 17:15 pierrick good night paul 17:15 thd pierrick: I expect to see all the important librarians in France there 17:15 russ bye all 17:15 pierrick bye russ 17:14 russ back in an hour or two 17:14 russ ok i gotta go 17:14 thd paul: r?pondez s'il vous pla?t is RSVP 17:14 pierrick on the last free (gratis) open source conference I went to, I had to register and I was called by phone to confirm 17:14 paul for sure. 17:13 russ paul - are you going to do an email for the koha and koha-devel lists? 17:13 paul with a mail & maybe a snailmail as well. 17:13 paul I think that Ineo plans to invite all important libraries in France personnaly. 17:13 pierrick thd: good idea 17:12 thd paul: But you could be more aggressive and attempt to personally contact anyone who was sent an invitation or announcement 17:12 paul ??? 17:11 thd paul: we have in English the passive closing of an invitation with the abbreviation of the French phrase RSVP 17:09 pierrick (add a small summary when you create a new version of a page) the RSS feed becomes far more readable 17:09 thd paul: If you could extract a promise or intention of attendance then people may be reluctant to break there declaration of intention. 17:08 pierrick another very small point: would it be possible to log your commits on the Wiki ? 17:08 paul that's what we plan to do. 17:08 thd paul: you might ask for a confirmation of attendance by email, telephone etc. 17:06 paul if you have an idea, let me know, we are open to any ! 17:06 thd paul: is there some way to substitute something that is not money but would function in the same way for the purpose of larger attendance? 17:06 paul it's 10:10. anything else ? 17:05 paul pierrick : in fact, I think that pate, our previous kaitiaki was quite a good PR guy. 17:05 paul right 17:05 thd as people would be disinclined to waste something for which they have paid 17:05 paul finally, it's ENSMP that forces the choice ! 17:04 paul that was my opinion (+ we hope this meeting will provide us some customers !), but not ineo one. 17:04 thd paul: free software should have free meetings but I understand your reasoning to ensure larger attendance 17:03 paul so very heavy on administrative rules ! 17:03 paul ENSMP is a school from french government. 17:03 paul ENSMP can't (legally) host such a meeting for free if it's not free. 17:02 paul when we spoke to Pascale Nalon, ENSMP, she explained to us that 17:02 russ ok that should all be fixed now 17:02 paul yes. 17:02 thd paul: formerly you spoke of fees to ensure attendance but now that has changed? 17:02 paul so, we have decided to have it for free. 17:01 paul + it would be highly more complex for ENSMP as well as for us. 17:01 paul as we would have to pay ENSMP if the meeting is not free. 17:01 paul "we will contact you to arrange payment" + the price : it will be free of charge 17:01 pierrick kados: impressive 17:00 kados it's 3rd and 4th in NZ :-) 17:00 paul the form contains 3rd & 4th of may, instead of 2nd and 3rd 17:00 paul http://www.koha.org/community/conferences/registration.html 17:00 russ 2 secs 16:59 russ doh!! 16:59 paul you write "May, 3rd" when speaking of may 2nd. 16:59 paul russ : http://www.koha.org/community/conferences/discoverkoha.html 16:59 kados yep, me too 16:59 russ it something i'd like to talk about at the dev week 16:59 kados right 16:58 pierrick only big projects have that (Mozilla or Openoffice.org...) 16:58 pierrick an unusual position in an opensource initiative 16:58 paul and if he's really good, once you're ill, he sell you the medicine to help you... 16:58 kados yep, thanks for that russ 16:57 thd and do it with a smile 16:57 paul and probably not one for a non native english 16:57 thd pierrick: the people who tell you that toxic sludge is good for you :) 16:57 pierrick a very hard task I suppose 16:56 kados Public Relations 16:56 kados pierrick: I'll see if I can update the entry 16:56 pierrick PR ? 16:56 russ pierrick : thanks 16:56 kados we need a PR manager :-) 16:56 pierrick we are :-) 16:56 russ http://freshmeat.net/projects/koha/ 16:56 pierrick russ: OK, I'll make my comments on difference between open and closed source QA on koha-devel 16:56 kados I didn't even know we were listed 16:55 pierrick koha project on Freshmeat has not been updated for a long time 16:54 kados ok 16:54 pierrick kados: yes I have another point 16:54 russ the devel list - i'd be interested to read your observations 16:54 paul (although I already spoke of this many times to flc & jps) 16:54 russ pierrick - perhaps to the list 16:54 paul as he's ineo employee. 16:54 pierrick thd: I'll answer you later, but the question is very interesting, I've worked on the two sides 16:53 paul maybe pierrick should ask for confirmation from ineo ? 16:53 kados anything else to discuss at the meeting? 16:53 kados sounds good 16:53 pierrick let's make a try 16:53 russ :-) 16:53 kados ok ... congratulations then pierrick, our new QA Manager 16:53 kados heh ... fair enough :-) 16:52 pierrick if in 2 months QA is stil on the same level, it would mean I'm not made for this 16:52 kados pierrick: Koha may be different than other OSS systems because the software must be tested before placing into production as bugs would seriously comprimise a library's workflow 16:52 thd pierrick: what is the distinction between open and closed source QA? 16:52 russ sounds like a good position to learn alot about koha 16:51 pierrick QA manager is an interesting position, as long as I do other things :-) 16:51 pierrick paul: I do not agree with you, QA manager do not have to heavy test the application, not in open source model 16:51 kados pierrick: is it something you are interested in holding? or would you prefer something else? 16:51 thd pierrick: you can invent a role that has not been described yet 16:50 kados excellent 16:50 pierrick code reviewing, keeping an eye on the bugtracker so that no bug stays too long 16:50 paul I think the QA manager is responsible for heavy testing. and organising bug squashing. 16:50 kados better yet, what official role do you want to fill? :-) 16:49 kados pierrick: how would you define a QA manager? 16:49 pierrick thd: I agree 16:49 thd This is how Debian goes 3 years between stable releases 16:49 pierrick not sure I see this role as you :-/ 16:48 kados hehe 16:48 paul no pierrick : I mean the guy that libraries can kick if he accept a release that has bugs. 16:48 thd the guy responsible for ensuring that there is no stable release until all bugs are fixed 16:48 kados pierrick: if you are QA manager I can assign you with the task of organizing the Bug Squashing sessions :-) 16:48 pierrick paul: you meant "the guy who would be allowed to kick if coders let bugs in their code" 16:47 paul lol 16:47 kados hehe 16:47 russ very loosely 16:47 paul the guy that we could kick if we have bugs on a stable reelase! 16:47 russ how do you define any position in Koha 16:47 kados responsible for ensuring high quality of the project code 16:46 kados very loosely :-) 16:46 pierrick how do you define QA manager position on Koha ? 16:46 kados pierrick: I think so ... 16:46 kados pierrick: what position would you like? :-) 16:45 pierrick kados: in know WP, but the plugin manager ? 16:45 paul pierrick : no need to stop speaking, you can have an idea ! 16:45 kados QA Manager is up for grabs IIRC 16:45 kados pierrick: WP is open source 16:45 kados paul: good question 16:45 paul a question, about pierrick : what kind of official position could we give to ineo/pierrick ? 16:44 pierrick russ & kados: do WP and oscommerce give away their tool ? 16:44 kados anything else ? 16:44 kados ok ... don't want to keep paul up 16:44 kados right 16:44 russ or oscommerce contributions 16:44 kados pierrick: that'd be great! 16:44 pierrick kados: I'll work with you on this if you want... we developped such a tool on my other project 16:44 kados pierrick: kind of like Wordpress 'plugins' 16:43 kados pierrick: (doesn't exist yet) 16:43 kados pierrick: in fact, that's how I envisioned kohazilla.org 16:43 pierrick kados: without adding it to CVS 16:43 kados pierrick: that would be great! 16:43 kados right, that will require a lot of grunt work :-) 16:43 pierrick kados: imagine a new customer has decided to fully rewrite a new template, the extension manager would let this customer offer his work to the community 16:42 paul the only/main difficulty being to port templates from rel_2_2 to head. 16:41 kados pierrick: could you explain what you mean? 16:41 kados and we'll continue to look for a good template translation system 16:41 pierrick would you be interested in an extension manager for koha.org ? 16:41 kados so for now we all agree to only work on prog/en 16:40 kados understandable if that's the motivation 16:40 kados and they want to wait until it's fully functional before making a public release 16:40 pierrick thank you kados for the fast search 16:39 kados so it must still be in 'beta' 16:39 kados "No, Rosetta is not Open or Free Software at the moment. Rosetta will become open source sometime in the future but we don't have a date, although some parts of the Launchpad have already been released under the GPL by Canonical Ltd." 16:39 pierrick thd: it is not donwloadable 16:39 thd pierrick how unfree is it? 16:38 pierrick it's a servicve 16:38 paul so it's not a possible candidate :-( 16:38 kados hmmm 16:38 pierrick I suppose, but rosetta is not a free software :-/ we can't install it on koha.org 16:38 kados pierrick: does rosetta use 'PO' files for translation? 16:37 kados bummer 16:37 paul no new release since 0.2 16:37 pierrick kartouche is exactly the same as what launchpad/rosetta offers 16:37 kados paul: will you have time before 3.0? :-) 16:37 paul if someone has a better software for this, he can suggest : kartouche is a dead project It seems 16:36 kados we need to popularize the kartouche 16:36 paul I never found the 2-3 hours needed to do this. 16:36 kados ahh ... 16:36 paul it just need something to "install" and "update" the text strings with koha tmpl_process3.pl 16:36 pierrick launchpad is a kind of project manager for Ubuntu 16:36 paul kados : we already have something : http://bureau.paulpoulain.com/kartouche/ 16:35 pierrick (rosetta more precisely) 16:35 kados I don't know launchpad 16:35 thd I suspect the reason that has not worked to date is that people want to use the template to support different features and presentation to an extent that exceeds mere stylesheet differences 16:35 pierrick something like launchpad??? 16:35 kados it would be neat if we had a tool for translating templates online 16:35 paul there is something very basic & needing manual setup on koha-fr.org, with stylesheets for css templates. 16:34 kados both :-) 16:34 paul "right" for who ? pierrick or me ? 16:34 kados very good ideas 16:34 kados right 16:32 pierrick thus encouraging participation from librarians 16:32 paul with stylesheet + maybe header/footer specific. 16:32 paul although i'm still thinking that it would be best to have only 1 template. 16:32 pierrick anybody would be able to add/update extensions 16:30 paul pierrick ++ 16:30 pierrick Wouldn't it be easier to have only one template/language in CVS and other downloadable on koha.org as "extensions" ? 16:30 paul everybody ONLY work on english at least. 16:29 paul we aare supposed to do that 16:29 kados I think that's the plan 16:29 pierrick in current head, there are many template/language, why don't we work only on prog/en during development 16:28 kados sure 16:28 pierrick this is the maybe moment for my second question of the meeting : templates 16:27 kados (the plugin I mean) 16:27 kados paul: yes, it will fit nicely on kohazilla.org when I finally launch it :-) 16:27 thd very pretty 16:26 pierrick course I saw it, he send an email with it on koha-devel 16:25 paul did everybody look at http://www.flickr.com/photos/64951563@N00/115366281/ ? 16:25 thd 1999 16:25 thd paul: I wrote a system using MARC records for my bookshop at the same time that Koha was being created 16:24 thd paul: I was formerly a bookseller with a library science background and some understanding of computer systems 16:23 pierrick paul: all right, I'll do it tomorrow 16:23 paul ? really ? I thought, as you know everything from MARC21 & UNIMARC. 16:23 paul pierrick : same note for you : reserve your hotel too. 16:23 thd paul: I am actually not a librarian nor have I ever been employed as a librarian 16:23 paul KohaCon page. 16:23 paul all infos on www.koha.org/wiki 16:22 paul just beware that the hotel should be reserved ASAP 16:22 paul there will be 2 other librarians. 16:22 paul you're welcomed, of course. 16:22 paul may 8th -> May 12 = developper week in Marseille. 16:22 thd I still want to discover the mysteries of Koha :) 16:22 paul may, 3rd : meeting for all koha users in Europe. Mostly french I bet, but maybe some other, we will see. 16:21 paul easy : may, 2nd : meeting for everybody that want to discover Koha. Not useful for you.. 16:21 thd if I can 16:21 kados thd: http://koha.org/community/conferences/index.html 16:21 thd paul: yes 16:21 paul you'll come for both weeks ? 16:21 thd paul: not if I do not know the dates clearly 16:21 paul good news, I didn't knew. 16:20 paul thd : you'll come too ? 16:20 kados paul: thanks 16:20 paul I'll translate it for you. 16:20 thd paul: now I am trying to work out the possibility of attending and would need to purchase air fair before the ticket would become to expensive. Not that my passport has arrived yet 16:20 paul we should publish it in french this week. 16:20 paul yep. 16:20 russ yep closer to the time it would be good to publish a programme of speakers, topics and the schedule 16:20 kados heh, paul beat me :-) 16:19 kados or a riot :-) 16:19 paul or a revolution. 16:19 paul ENSMP is OK, CMI too, so dates are definitive. Unless there is an earthquake in France. 16:19 paul russ : right. 16:19 russ they are all confirmed 16:19 pierrick maybe thd wants to know the estimated length of each presentation... 16:19 thd ? 16:19 thd paul: what dates are clearly or tentatively defined for what places 16:18 thd as complete as you would like to specify 16:18 paul ??? 16:17 thd paul: please clarify what the schedule actually is for KohaCon and after 16:17 pierrick russ: I read KohaCon pages on koha.org today 16:17 paul what do you call "complete schedule" thd ? 16:17 russ it has broad details at the moment whilst the complete schedule is developed on the wiki 16:17 paul for sure ! 16:16 pierrick paul: hope you'll come to say hello at least :-) 16:16 russ no not at the moment 16:16 russ paul: great 16:16 thd russ does that have the complete schedule? 16:16 paul I recieved it russel. 16:16 kados russ: cool 16:16 russ paul - i sent a test message to the form last night 16:16 paul pierrick : no probl you didn't know : I come to see flc, not you ;-) 16:16 russ i have put the conference pages live on the koha site 16:16 kados paul: yowser! 16:15 kados anything else to discuss? 16:15 kados ok, so I will post a message about reinstituting the weekly bug squashing meeting 16:15 russ yikes 4am 16:15 paul going to bed at 10 for sure. 16:15 paul just one note : I wake up at 4AM tomorrow. and it's already 9:15PM in France. So I won't stay for more than 45mn. 16:14 russ i think it is fairly safe to assume that those people using the older versions either don't notice the bugs, have fixed them or developed work arounds 16:14 kados (as do all Koha companies I suspect :)) 16:14 thd except that Katipo has its own bug tracking system in addition to bugs.koha.org 16:14 paul at least they are not officially maintained ! 16:14 kados hmmm ... well russ'll have to speak to that 16:14 russ well i dont thing we have anyone on the 1.x series anymore 16:13 thd kados: I suspect some of Katipo's customers would hope you are wrong about 1.X not being maintained 16:12 pierrick no customer still in koha<2.0 ? 16:12 kados as those branches aren't maintained any longer 16:12 kados we can ignore Koha<2.0 16:12 thd pierrick: that means that you did not try hard enough to fix it or it is a feature :) 16:12 pierrick oldest ? 16:12 kados for Koha>2.2.2 16:12 kados I count 174 unresolved bugs 16:11 russ you can resolve as "later" as well - but i am not sure if that is all that usefeul 16:11 pierrick kados: BSP would be great 16:11 pierrick btw kados, closing a bug does not mean it's fixed, we can justify the close as "won't be fixed" (in the general case, I don't have an example in mind) 16:11 kados maybe we need to revisit that 16:11 kados for a while we were doing weekly bug squasing sessions 16:10 kados yea, it's a very good point 16:10 russ i hope that during the dev week in may we will be able to do a bit of a tidy up 16:09 kados pierrick: sometimes it's used as an RT 16:09 kados pierrick: in fact, some are not very minor 16:09 pierrick does the bugtracker also use as "request tracker" ? 16:09 pierrick old bugs still present, I suppose there are really minor bugs 16:08 kados pierrick: so I think it wouldn't be that useful 16:08 kados pierrick: they still exist :-) 16:08 pierrick wouldn't it be useful to close too old items that nobody will fix ? 16:08 kados paul's here even :-) 16:08 kados so guess we'll have a meeting after all 16:08 paul2 hello world ! 16:07 kados oops :-) 16:07 kados pierrick: morning russ 16:07 russ morning 16:07 kados pierrick: I agree, but the problem is noone seems willing to fix the old items 16:07 kados once 3.0 stabilizes a bit more it will become more important 16:07 pierrick having a bugtracker is a very good point, but keeping very old items unresolved is not a good point at all :-/ 16:07 kados for 3.0 it's too early to begin using it since we don't even have a running system 16:06 kados I think 2.2 is quite stabliized (except for the many bugs that noone wants to work on) 16:06 pierrick what is the current status of the bugtracker ? 16:06 kados it's not frequently used I'm afraid 16:06 pierrick and in 2 weeks, only one update 16:06 kados yep, I'm sure there are :-) 16:05 pierrick there seems to remain very old items 16:05 pierrick first topic : the bugtracker 16:04 pierrick well... yes I still have questions :-) 16:04 kados pierrick: what's up? 16:04 kados ahh ... ok 16:04 hdl But pierrick said he had. 16:03 kados I don't have anything new ... been struggling to get zebra 'sort' to work ... 16:03 kados we can postpone the mtg until next week unless either of you have anything to report 16:03 hdl ooops thd-back-soon will bbs :) 16:03 hdl and kados and thd-back-soon 16:02 hdl yes 16:02 pierrick is anybody here? 15:54 kados hi hdl 15:54 hdl hi 15:38 thd kados: yes that one 15:32 kados barcode and 942$j? 15:15 thd did you get my email with the small changes? 15:14 thd :) 15:14 kados thd: can't wait any longer :-) 15:14 kados thd: I'm just going to manually set up my client's classification system 15:12 thd not that all of library science is not fun but the most fun of all can be had with classification systems 15:11 thd kados: that OCLC list is very very short 15:11 thd kados: classification systems are the fun part of library science 15:11 thd kados: another boolean system preference would be allowOtherClassSystem for using an alternate classification system if filled. 15:08 thd kados: I left out government document classification 15:05 thd kados: lastly local custom system 15:05 thd http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/en/0xx/098.shtm 15:04 kados ?? 15:04 thd kados: other systems are coming and then concluding with local system 15:03 thd National Library of Agriculture (I do not know th e abbreviation) 15:03 kados also, what about systems that distinguish between classification and call number and location? 15:03 kados what about systems like NPL where there is more than one classification/call number system active at the same time? 15:02 thd NLM 15:01 thd LCC 15:01 thd UDC 15:01 thd DDC 15:01 thd values 15:01 thd One preference for defaultClassificationSystem 14:59 kados what would the possible values be? 14:59 kados what would the syspref be? 14:59 kados thd: yes 14:55 thd kados did you see my posts about mapping above? 14:51 kados thd: back from lunch 14:22 thd oh yes 090 has to move absolutely because it can very easily complicate copy cataloguing 14:18 thd kados: if you are migrating records without such fields then you map the values from where they are in 852, 090, 092, 096 or wherever; or else you upgrade the records with a script that will be easy once we have struggled a bit for a well tested method 14:14 thd kados: that algorithm will work every time so the cataloguer should only have to ensure that there is something in 050, 082, or 084 as needed 14:12 thd s/decimal/decimal point/ 14:12 thd kados: splt the $a string by the decimal if DDC and by the space if LCC or local system with spaces 14:10 thd kados: biblioitems.subclass does not map cleanly to MARC because it was meant for the latter part of 082 $a but you can certainly fill it consistently from a plugin 14:08 thd kados: biblioitems.dewey does not map cleanly to MARC because it was meant for part of 082 $a but you can certainly fill it consistently from a plugin 14:06 thd kados: biblioitems.classification was intended for the equivalent of 852 $c or 852 $k 14:04 thd kados: If you let the plugin do the work according to a preference then you can have a single default framework 14:04 kados thd: what mapping? 14:03 thd kados: the mapping is stable as long as you are not moving the framework between DDC and LCC or whatever 14:02 kados hehe 14:02 thd kados: weekends and the days between are all the same to me :) 14:01 kados thd: that's a weekend project :-) 14:01 kados thd: i don't have time to do that today 14:01 thd ok kados: but it is very simple and similarly you can fill values for 952 in the same way so the cataloguer presses a few buttons and everything is done as if by magic :) 14:01 kados should we may 'classification' to 050? 14:01 kados should we map 'dewey' to 082? 13:59 kados koha tables to MARC tables for classification 13:59 thd kados: how to map what? 13:59 kados thd: we'll discuss the specifics of the plugin later when I have time :-) 13:59 kados thd: we need to determine how to map things first 13:58 kados thd: ok, hang on 13:57 thd kados: and the digits form 082 $a after the decimal fill 942 $l biblioitems.subclass 13:55 thd kados: if the preference specifies DDC then the 3 digits before the decimal from 082 $a fill 942 $k biblioitems.dewey 13:53 thd kados: resuming, If 084 is empty even if other classifications are allowed then go to the common standard classification specified by a classification preference 13:52 thd kados: oops first check if some field ,942 whatever has overridden the usual pattern by 942 $whatever so that any record can do something different 13:48 thd kados: inspect 084 for a value if a system preference allows 084 to be used for a less common classification system. 13:46 thd kados: that was the broad overview 13:45 thd kados: it should search for the local cataloguing system fields to see if they were filled and then fill from the standard field that is specified in a system preference or with the possibility of modification by a per record flag for those libraries that want several different classifications in addition to the default 13:43 kados but first, how should we map things? 13:43 kados I still dont' quite understand what it should do 13:43 kados ok, I can work on that plugin 13:43 kados gotcha 13:43 thd kados: The search issues were not really my greatest focus as much as releaving cataloguers of work 13:42 kados thd: 082 DCC 13:41 thd kados: do you mean 082 DDC or 080 UDC? 13:40 thd kados: Koha works fine as long as itemtypes is filled and you could write a plugin for the classification parts of 942 in an hour and save cataloguers a lot of work 13:40 kados thd: so should we map Dewey to 080 and Classification to 050? 13:39 kados thd: we can deal with the search issues later 13:39 kados thd: so that people can actually find the items they're looking for on the shelves :-) 13:39 kados thd: what is highest priority is ensuring that the classification / call number / location are clearly visible on the results pages 13:38 thd kados: my parenthetical comments were really meant as partial instructions for writing a plugin 13:38 kados thd: none of my clients have every asked for such a search 13:38 kados thd: fine, but that's the last thing I'm thinking about 13:38 thd kados: the reason it did not work is that it was not mapped correctly 13:37 thd kados: it does do something with DDC if it is mapped the way I described 13:37 kados thd: so just forget about it for rel_2_2 I think 13:37 kados thd: it's never worked with LCC classification or with the MARC version of Koha and I won't have time to fix it 13:36 thd kados: like I said the cataloguer should never have to touch 942 even if the library has its own special system 13:36 kados thd: the range search is being fixed by Tumer in head 13:36 kados thd: why don't we just map the 'dewey' and 'classification' koha fields directly to the marc fields 030 and 080? 13:36 thd kados: I think the range search is numeric so LCC would need some manipulation 13:35 kados (I suppose dewey could be autofilled as well) 13:35 kados (LCC is autofilled by 050) 13:35 kados dewey 13:35 kados item type 13:35 kados Institution code 13:35 kados NBBC has: 13:35 thd kados: I was trying to think of how the range search that chris devised could work for LCC 13:34 thd kados: if the library is using a nonstandard classification that is fine there are MARC 21 fields for that and they can also be captured by a plugin if filled and inserted into 942 13:34 kados Classification subclass (DDC after decimal or LCC number after letters 13:34 kados Classification base (DDC to decimal or LCC letter class padded after single letter classes with trailing 0 13:34 kados Item type * 13:34 kados - ADDED ENTRY ELEMENTS (KOHA) 13:34 kados thd: the latest file you sent me has the following in the record editor's 942 field: 13:32 thd yes, I agree but I do not see how anything broke except that I was trying to thick of what would allow the system to work for any library with the least cataloguer effort 13:31 thd kados: but most libraries in the world are not as standard as they might be 13:31 kados we need to be all inclusive 13:30 kados ok, but we're not going to conform to standards to the exclusion of libraries like NPL that don't use them 13:30 thd kados: at standards based libraries that are afraid to try or are still to large for Koha it is done that way. 13:29 kados thd: that may be the 'standard' but I've never seen a library do it that way 13:29 kados thd: not in actual practice 13:29 thd kados: call number is the classification system number plus the item number plus prefixes and suffixes 13:29 kados there may be a standard way to represent classification / call number / location in MARC21 but I've yet to see a library that uses it 13:28 kados etc etc. 13:28 kados some have call numbers at the record level AND at the item level 13:28 kados some have multiple classifications but only one call number 13:27 kados some use classification and call number interchangably 13:27 kados ok ... the problem with classifications and call numbers and locations is that every library does it differently 13:26 thd kados: oh yes but if the question is joining all the matches in a unified manner at the biblio level and not the item level the classification system does not even matter much 13:26 kados wait ... nevermind 13:25 kados there are three things to keep in mind 13:24 thd kados: I may have been a little mistaken about the mapping months ago but you did not seem to have enough time then to see how the plugins worked in French else we may have had a very different conversation at the time 13:23 kados thd: both of which some libraries use 13:23 kados thd: or locations 13:23 kados thd: also, you aren't taking into account local classifications 13:23 kados thd: itemtype needs to be manually set 13:22 thd kados: you discovered plugins and 942 should be filled with a plugin so the cataloguer never has to touch it 13:22 kados thd: so the framework has to support both simultanously 13:22 kados thd: but many clients use both DDC and LCC 13:21 thd kados: What I did is allow the framework to be agnostic as to DDC or LCC 13:21 kados thd: why don't you like that method now? 13:21 kados thd: I believe I mapped it that way because you told me to some months back :-) 13:21 thd kados: the map that you gave me had 050 $a mapped to items.classification and 050 $b mapped to items.subclass. 13:19 kados 050 for classification? 13:18 kados which is the whole point 13:18 kados that's fine as long as it will display! 13:18 thd kados: NBBC has it mapped to 050 13:18 kados DDC I mean 13:18 kados dewey is DCC 13:17 kados classification is LCC 13:17 kados NBBC uses that 13:17 kados hmmm 13:17 thd :) 13:17 thd kados: it never existed before so just do not fill it 13:17 kados thd: what I'm woried about is display 13:16 thd kados: you do not need 942 j 13:16 kados thd: forget searching by classification in rel_2_2 13:16 kados thd: 942J is still marked as obsolete 13:16 thd kados: that is how chris intended to use it for range searching which does not really work with LCC 13:16 kados thd: 942K should not be LCC ... it should be DDC 13:15 kados ? 13:15 kados thd: dewey 942 k Classification base (DDC to decimal or LCC letter class padded after single letter classes with trailing 0 13:14 kados thd: checking now 13:13 thd kados: If you look at 952 as my email had suggested, it can almost be used as if it were 852, 876-8 and I am much more interested in rearranging the subfields according to my recommendation so that the match to 852, 876-8 is more perfect but I left the ones you already had where they were. 13:02 paul_away you've got the answer ;-) 13:02 pierrick cross post... 13:02 pierrick paul: will you be there tonight ? 13:02 paul not sure to be here tonight, but i'll try 13:02 paul I leave too. 13:01 pierrick (I have some topics to discuss on) 13:00 pierrick read you all tonight at the meeting :-) 12:47 thd kados: It would be very simple with a little thought to write the SQL 12:47 kados thd: script I mean 12:47 kados thd: if we find a client that uses RLIN records we can just re-map the values using our import scraipt 12:46 kados thd: as it's completely unnecessary 12:46 kados thd: we won't move 952 in rel_2_2 I don't think 12:46 thd paul: Is there anything in Koha that would cause a problem for 95k with a letter instead of 952? 12:45 paul it's a proposal from NPL 12:44 thd hdl: 952 is used for items and conflicts with the world's second largest library network RLIN so I intend to move that. 12:43 thd hdl: 942 is used for biblioitems not items and is an invention of paul but fortunately does not conflict with any other uses 12:43 kados thd: however, currently what I need is just a basic mapping that will work in the time being 12:42 kados I can confirm that :-) 12:42 paul ;-) 12:41 thd hdl: No there is no such script yet but since paul has told kados the secret of writing cross field scripts and he is currently working on the record editor I expect there will be a script soon 12:41 hdl is 942 a standard for items ? 12:40 thd hdl: so currently 952 $k by default 12:39 thd hdl: items are currently in a nonstandard 952 by default 12:39 hdl thd: Is such a script designed already ? 12:38 hdl 650$a bibliosubject. 12:38 thd hdl: Therefore, a separate field is needed which could be filled by a script in MARC 21 from 245 $h and if 245 $h were not present then BOOK would fill the special field. 12:37 hdl 700$q for author ? (seems always empty would 100$q be more accurate ?).... . 12:36 thd hdl sorry above 12:36 thd kados: for books Anglo American cataloguing Rules specify that books are assumed when nothing is specified and I am certain that the rule is the same for French bibliographic rules 12:35 hdl 942$k for itemcallnumber ? 12:34 thd s/with/which/ 12:34 thd hdl: This is because the field that you would want to map for general material designation with is 245 $h in MARC 21 is not used for books. 12:33 hdl I saw 942$c for itemtype 12:33 hdl 200$b seems to be the one we generally use 12:32 thd hdl: There is no proper standard MARC field to link to biblioitems.itemtype in either MARC 21 or UNIMARC 12:31 thd hdl: UNIMARC is more logical 12:31 thd hdl: yes I can probably answer 12:30 hdl MARC-21 is quite confusing to me. 12:29 hdl thd : can you answer my question ? 12:24 thd kados: range search might work with LCC but maybe the letters would need conversion to numbers 12:23 kados thd: I'll be back in ten minutes 12:23 thd kados: it does not conform with what chris had for range search 12:22 kados thd: do you think it's a good way? 12:22 kados hdl: thd can answer your question (as we're trying to decide how to handle this currently) 12:21 thd kados: I see that would be the simplest way of doing it 12:21 kados hdl: I've got to run on a service call 12:19 kados thd: so use 'dewey' to may the DDC and 'classification' to map the LCC (I think) 12:18 kados thd: some of my clients use both DDC and LCC 12:10 hdl itemcalnumber needed too. 12:09 hdl in MARC-21 12:09 hdl author (100$a guessed) 12:09 hdl bibliosubject 12:09 hdl itemtype 12:09 hdl Which fields do you link to 12:08 hdl I need some information here. 12:08 hdl kados ?