Time Nick Message 05:31 osmoze hello 03:33 thd kados: position numbering starts with 00 so that 06 is in the seventh position. 03:32 thd kados: I had forgotten something important that confused me about your leader examples. 03:17 kados heh 03:16 thd like me unless I stay up and then miss you 03:16 kados or else I'll miss paul ... won't get up in time :-) 03:15 thd kados: of curse you need the right date time format still but you understood that. 03:15 kados ok ... I've got to get to bed 03:15 thd above sentence for 005 03:14 thd kados: the old value should appear until the record is submitted but a new value should not require any user action other than submitting the record. 03:10 thd kados: I just thought of a cheap way to separate the OPAC MARC view from the fields specified for the cataloguer to use by default. 03:10 kados today's date should appear :-) 03:10 kados just put your cursor in the field 03:10 kados don't click on the ... 03:10 kados check out the functionality of the 005 03:09 kados thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl 03:09 kados thd: before you go 03:04 kados yep 03:04 thd kados: It should be shouted as a great advancement in user interfaces for library applications. 03:03 thd kados: About the best feature of Koha is almost hidden. 03:02 thd kados: cataloguers can always be informed but there is a related function in the OPAC that must be missed by most users 03:01 kados yep 03:01 thd kados: also the three dots are difficult to spot. There should be something more visible that signifies the function. 03:00 kados there is such a way 02:59 thd kados: There should be some way of auto activating default values for plugins if the field is empty. 02:58 thd kados: it should not require pressing a JavaScript link to fill an initial default value. 02:57 kados yea ... I think MARC::Record already handles that actually 02:56 thd kados: paul's code may do nothing for record size etc. in the leader but he may envision treating that outside the editor. 02:56 kados thd: thanks for your help 02:56 kados thd: it's a start anyway 02:56 kados thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl?oldbiblionumber=&frameworkcode=Default 02:55 kados ahh ... I bet I know why 02:55 kados 003 has stopped showing up 02:55 kados strange ... 02:54 thd kados: other fields are mandatory and could use much support but 000-008 are the most difficult for humans 02:53 kados sweet ... not really that bad after all :-) 02:53 thd kados: That is all the control fields 02:52 kados yep, shouldn't be too hard 02:52 thd kados: If we can understand how his plugins work it should merely be work to build more complex ones. 02:52 kados thd: what's next? 02:51 kados i just can't figure out how the plugin works in this case 02:51 kados ok ... so I need to ask paul tomorrow morning about how to handle these 02:51 thd kados: 008 is similar but mandatory 02:51 kados same deal there 02:51 kados ok ... 008 then 02:51 kados right I see that 02:51 thd kados: it is like the leader only more complex 02:50 thd kados: it needs a complex plugin 02:50 kados so should it be an authorized value? 02:50 kados right 02:50 thd kados: 007 is not mandatory but is very nice for someone like me who wants to do a lot of work to make good cataloguing easy. 02:49 kados 007 Physical Description Fixed Field 02:49 thd kados: yes 02:48 kados ok ... should we move on then>? 02:48 thd kados: 006 is not needed in most cases but would be for some types of material 02:48 kados thd: do you know? 02:48 kados (so that I can fill them when i find out from paul tomorrow how to do so) 02:48 kados but in the meatime, what shoudl the values be for a BOOK or for DEFAULT? 02:47 kados I'll ask paul about it tomorrow 02:47 kados I forgot 02:47 kados I guess I'll need to wait on that one since I still dont know how to adjust those leader scripts 02:47 thd kados: That could of course be something as simple as a CD with a booklet insert though. 02:47 kados so what's our default value supposed to be? 02:46 thd kados: 006 s for additional material and is not needed unless you have a complex type of material to catalogue composed of multiple parts 02:46 kados no sweat 02:46 kados 006 has 17 02:46 kados leader has 24 char positions 02:46 kados well ... look like 02:46 kados in terms of what it's supposed to do 02:45 kados this looks a lot like the leader 02:45 kados sorry ... 006 02:45 kados lets move to 005 02:45 kados I don't see any need to create a separate framework for each material JUST for updates 02:45 kados we already support that 02:45 kados I know that already 02:45 kados right 02:45 thd kados: record updates 02:44 kados 005? 02:44 kados updates to what? 02:44 thd kados: updates also affect a leader value 02:44 kados because I've got a webex demo on Thur :-) 02:44 kados thd: but I'm just eager to get a working framework in place 02:44 kados thd: but I'll definitely add that functionality as it's quite easy 02:44 kados thd: yep, I've got it noted ... for now it's just 2006-12-30 02:43 thd fractional second appear after the dot but could be fractional seconds '0' 02:43 kados 006 I'm guessing 02:43 kados k ... what's next? 02:42 kados I'll go with it for now then I'll check to make sure I'm right later 02:42 thd kados: maybe but no koha field stores the value in the exact required format unless I am mistaken 02:42 kados depending on how that's used 02:42 kados biblioitems.timestamp maybe? 02:41 kados thd: should this be linked to a koha field? 02:41 thd retract the dot is where the above sentence says 02:40 thd there is a dot in between the date and the time 02:39 thd The date requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern yyyymmdd. The time requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern hhmmss.f, expressed in terms of the 24-hour (00-23) clock. 02:39 kados 2006-12-30 then? 02:38 thd kados: mostly ISO 02:38 kados thd: which is what? 02:38 thd kados: date and time in the required format 02:37 kados ok ... got a plugin for tha talready 02:37 thd 005 has to be regenerated every time a record edit is submitted. 02:37 kados thd: so ... 005 ... todays' date? 02:37 kados should be fairly easy 02:37 kados I have a plugin script that can be changed to do this 02:36 kados right 02:36 thd that would be the one I finally sent when I had finished the default framework this past weekend :) 02:36 kados and put it in the right field right? 02:36 kados but we need a plugin that can handle an existing value 02:36 kados thd: when I bulk-import records 02:35 kados thd: I routinely do this for my clients 02:35 thd kados: an existing 003 from a copy catalogued record should be moved to whatever field I said it should in my email from months ago 02:35 kados or last time's date? 02:34 kados should be filled with today's date right? 02:34 kados 005? Date and Time of Latest Transaction 02:34 kados I can look it up later ... lets move on 02:34 kados OLvl I think 02:34 kados LibLIme that is 02:34 kados yep, we have one 02:34 thd kados: That is supposed to be an authorised code assigned by LC for the institution 02:34 kados 005? 02:33 kados what's next? 02:33 thd kados: that should be the branch doing the cataloguing read from wherever the cataloguing user information is located. 02:32 kados with LibLime's code 02:32 kados so I'll set that up quickly 02:31 kados the 003 can have an authorized value 02:31 thd kados: there is no 002 02:31 thd kados: a plugin should move any old 001 value to 035 02:30 kados Control Number Identifier 02:30 kados I'm guessing 003 02:30 kados what's next ... 002? :-) 02:30 kados right 02:30 thd kados: the fields may be repeatable but not in this case 02:30 kados ahh 02:30 kados ok ... what's next? 02:30 thd kados: all '@' subfields are non-repeatable 02:29 kados it has one subfield ... @ right 02:29 kados it's not repeatable 02:28 thd CONTROL NUMBER 02:28 kados no, I meant 001 itself 02:27 kados Control Number 02:27 thd kados: you mean subfield '@'? 02:27 kados thd: what should I call it ? 02:27 thd kados: what label do you mean? 02:26 kados thd: what's the label? 02:26 thd kados: 001 should be filled automatically from biblionumber yes 02:26 kados biblio.biblionumber ... right? 02:25 kados it shouhhld be linked to biblionumber for now, right? 02:25 kados ok ... so 001 then 02:25 thd kados: 001 is mandatory 02:25 kados thd: what's next in terms of importance ... 008? 02:25 kados thd: lets move from the leader 02:24 kados I can't figure it out 02:24 kados well ... we'll have to ask paul tomorrow 02:21 thd kados: there is a reference to unimarc field 100 in line 56 02:18 kados field_value[i] is a variable for the value of the field within that form ... each one of them has a value 02:17 thd kados: perhaps there is even more to change for the default 02:17 kados document.forms[0] is the first form in the document 02:15 kados where the heck is that stored? 02:14 kados defaultvalue=document.forms[0].field_value[i].value; 02:14 kados I bet the problem is this: 02:13 kados well ... 000/06 I mean 02:13 kados like it should 02:12 kados it doesn't fill 000/07 with 'm' 02:12 kados using the COMPUTER FILE framework? 02:12 kados thd: and try to catalog a new Computer File 02:12 kados thd: did you visit the above link? 02:12 thd kados: I think that is an illegal value 02:11 thd kados: what is the problem? 02:11 thd kados: The existing default is right for books already as the most common thing to be catalogued. 02:10 thd Although I never had a cavity until I had been living a few years in New York. 02:10 kados but still doesn't work :( 02:10 kados $result = " nmm 7a " unless $result; 02:09 kados for the marc21_computerfile.pl I changed it to: 02:09 kados arrrg 02:09 thd kados: I grew up where fluoridated water was thought to be a communist plot. 02:08 kados shoot ... not sure it's working right 02:08 thd mostly indestructible but real tooth enamel is better 02:07 kados heh 02:07 thd kados: I am well rested and have a new indestructible filling 02:06 kados thd: are you up for it? 02:06 kados or write plugins for them if the values are shifty 02:06 kados and try to pick values for them that would apply for BOOK (MONOGRAPH) 02:06 kados plus the materials designations (if you know what those should be) 02:06 kados is to go through the other fields up to 008 02:05 kados I think what we should do ... if you have time ... 02:05 kados http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl 02:05 kados thd: can you check to see if you like what you see? 02:05 thd yes line 82 $result = " nam 7a " unless $result; 02:00 kados ok ... we're in business 02:00 kados I get it now 01:59 thd s/there/their/ 01:59 thd kados: there must be something different about the current defaults or there reference :) 01:57 thd kados: It may use JavaScript along with Perl. 01:57 thd kados: I have not tried changing the default yet. 01:56 thd s/fields/fields, fixed field positions, and subfields/ 01:56 kados do you know? 01:55 kados the leader that is 01:55 kados I still can't figure out how to make it default to the values we want 01:55 kados hang on 01:55 thd kados: proper material typing is complex because it involves several fields including ones that cannot be relied upon being present in a found record and many cataloguers have no time to create in an original record. 01:53 thd kados: book is tricky by requiring both 000/06 and 000/07 01:51 thd kados: It is very simple with just the leader 01:50 kados I see how 01:50 kados nevermind 01:49 thd kados: Video (film, filmstrip, transparency) 000/06 g, 000/07 whatever applies 01:49 kados looking over this template, I can't figure out how to get it to default to a specific value 01:48 kados thanks :-) 01:48 thd kados: leader only for now 01:48 thd kados: 008 is a required field and has much to do with material type 01:48 kados yea, but lets focus on the leader first 01:47 thd s/their/there/ 01:47 thd kados: their are other fields that need plugins, well all of them do. :) 01:46 thd kados: those are the only two that set material type in the leader 01:46 kados thd: are those the only two that need to be changed? 01:45 thd kados: leader positions six and seven 01:44 thd kados: Computer File: 000/06 m, 000/07 whatever applies 01:43 kados thd: I don't know what that means 01:42 thd kados: Book (monograph) 000/06 a 000/07 m 01:37 kados what should the values be for the types I listed above ... do you know off hand? 01:37 thd kados: I would mak a copy of the script and change the defaults 01:36 kados or would you change the actual way the script works? 01:36 kados thd: would you simply specify defaults if you were going to make a marc21.books.leader.pl? 01:36 kados thd: it looks like perhaps it is meant to cover all possible cases 01:35 thd kados: what else would you use? 01:35 thd kados: links work now in both MARC view and the default non-MARC detail view 01:35 kados thd: I didn't realize that you would use a plugin as paul's marc21leader.pl works 01:34 kados yea, I have no idea why they were't showing up before 01:34 thd kados: koha/intranet/cgi-bin/value_builder 01:32 kados interesting ... you can even specify if there should be links 01:31 kados the values don't really look right to me 01:31 kados well ... kinda 01:30 kados http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl 01:30 kados yay! 01:30 kados hey, looks like it's even working ! 01:29 kados wow ... plugin's just magically started working! 01:28 thd kados: I used 'control field' in '@' for 000 01:27 thd kados: I will run the find command 01:27 kados thd: what was the value for 'Text for librarian'? 01:27 kados both the @ and the plugins 01:26 thd kados: not that I see. 01:26 kados thd: we're back to not having the '000' $@ again now that I switched back to npl templates 01:24 kados are they also in your 'scripts' directory? 01:24 kados I just don't know why my Koha's not finding them 01:24 kados I know where they are 01:24 thd kados: they are in the value builder directory for CVS. 01:22 kados thd: and, from the sound of it, calculate the length of the record :-) 01:21 kados thd: what is in your 'scripts' directory? 01:21 thd kados: You should merely alter the leader plugin with other copies set to different correct defaults for different bibliographic media. 01:21 kados they are of course executable by apache 01:19 thd kados: The apache user has to be able to read and execute them of course. :) 01:18 thd kados: If I recall correctly, as long as the plugins directory is in the correct place all plugins will be listed. 01:17 thd kados: I am not certain that paul's plugin calculates the record size when you choose the submit button but it could eventually. 01:16 thd kados: The leader is supposed to include information about the record size etc. that should be filled automatically. 01:15 kados why not? 01:15 thd kados: You cannot use an authorised value for the leader and have an accurate leader. 01:14 kados thd: am I wrong? 01:14 kados thd: because I thought the BOOK framework would only need one value for leader 01:14 kados thd: I was gonna use a 'Auth value' not a plugin 01:14 kados shoot ... that was a complete waste of time :/ 01:14 thd kados: maybe the templates reject the attempt to add the subfield if you do not provide text for the librarian or OPAC 01:14 kados Text for librarian i bet 01:13 kados what was I missing then? 01:13 kados hey! 01:13 thd kados: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?tagfield=000&frameworkcode=BOOK 01:12 kados if you do, please show me where 01:12 kados I still dont' see the @ subfield listed 01:12 thd kados: There were no plugins listed though. 01:11 kados thd: in what? 01:11 thd kados: I succeeded 01:09 kados nope :( 01:08 kados thd: is it possible that the non-default frameworks can't have their own values for LEADER -- only the default can? 00:51 kados thd: are you trying it? 00:48 kados see if you can make it dance 00:48 kados give it a shot yourself 00:47 kados thd: koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?tagfield=000&frameworkcode=BOOK 00:47 kados this is SO frustrating 00:47 kados yea, it's definitely not working! 00:46 kados thd: using default I get the same thing! 00:45 kados switching to default now 00:45 kados npl 00:45 thd kados: what template are you using? 00:45 kados and it didn't work! 00:45 kados then attempted to addd subfield @ 00:45 kados just added 000 00:45 thd kados: The librarian who helped paul originally prepare the specifications for the frameworks did not have the compulsion for validity that people may loose their data if this is incomplete or inaccurate. 00:45 kados ARRRG 00:43 thd kados: Inaccurate repeatability was added to the original work but nothing more. 00:41 thd kados: Default is very poor and is missing much. 00:40 kados thd: or does the new default still not have it? 00:40 kados thd: also, even now, my marc structure doesn't display a 000 tag 00:40 thd kados: It is not UNIMARC dependent but I could never get it to work 00:40 kados does it apply to usmarc/marc21 too? 00:40 thd kados: That preference is supposed to aid in filling an item call number from a standard location. 00:37 kados it cuts off 00:37 kados itemcallnumber 676a The MARC field/subfield that is used to calculate the itemcallnumber (in UNIMARC 00:37 kados thd: do you know this syspref: 00:19 kados now updatedatabase has run 00:16 kados to grab the frameworks stuff 00:16 kados I decided to completely start over with a fresh install 23:55 kados yea, restoring now 23:49 thd kados: you built everything from an SQL dump right? 23:45 kados shit 23:45 kados totally 23:44 kados yea, looks like it's toast :-) 23:44 kados I may have :-) 23:42 thd kados: careful not to delete the wrong table :) 23:41 kados this sucks 23:41 kados maybe even others 23:41 kados I'm guessing it's probably marc_subfield_structure and marc_tag_structure 23:39 kados ok that must not be it 23:38 kados ok ... deleted biblio_framework and readded it with updatedatabase 23:35 kados actually, I'm not even sure which table the framework stuff is in 23:33 thd kados: You must be able to add columns to an existing table or nothing would hardly ever update without being dropped first. 23:32 thd kados: That problem with updatedatabase should be cured. 23:31 thd kados: owen told me that no one would touch the frameworks at NPL because of some problem from versions ago would give permanent headaches that no one else had ever been able to reproduce. 23:31 kados ok ... I'll delete the framework table and run updatedatabase 23:31 kados well ... table and column that is 23:31 kados it doesn't update if the table exists :( 23:30 kados that's the thing about updatedatabase 23:30 kados could be 23:29 thd kados: Is there some legacy problem in your bibliographic framework table? 23:28 kados it _is_ latest cvs 23:28 thd kados: I run a single script to update everything now. 23:27 thd kados: update to the latest rel_2_2 in CVS. I only had 2.2.5 for a couple of days. 23:27 kados it won't 'stick' 23:27 kados no, I'm not even able to add a @ subfield in the 000 tag 23:26 thd s/hey/they/ 23:26 thd If hey are using MARC Koha. 23:26 thd kados: Some translations are tied to the default OPAC templates so there is now a problem for users of those languages. 23:25 kados doesn't work in default either 23:25 thd kados: The default templates are now only non-MARC in the OPAC for some mistake that happened during 2.2.4. 23:23 kados wtf 23:23 kados shit ... npl template doesn't even save the @ subfield 23:22 thd kados: default only for intranet in MARC. 23:22 thd kados: try the default template. 23:21 kados doesn't on mine 23:21 kados ahh 23:21 thd kados: actually if you leave the subfiled name blank the default templates will create it as '@'. 23:21 kados I'm a dumbass :-) 23:20 kados ahh 23:20 thd kados: create subfield '@' 23:20 kados I thought you said to do it as @000 23:20 kados er? 23:20 thd kados: Add field 000. 23:19 kados it doesn't show up :-) 23:19 kados so when I add it as @000 23:19 thd kados: It is working on my rel_2_2 system so it must already be in CVS. 23:18 kados have to commit it to cvs tonight 23:18 kados found the prob 23:18 thd sorry retract last post 23:17 thd kados: you mean the add field box? 23:16 kados I mean that I can't enter in more than 3 chars in the 'tag' input box 23:13 thd s/what/what where/ 23:12 thd kados: What do you mean? Not enough characters to fit what? 23:11 kados the template is preventing it :-) 23:11 kados not enough characters to fit it :( 23:11 thd kados: you need to add it to your '@' subfield for 000 in the bibliographic framework editor. 23:09 thd kados: 000/06 is not defined for 'n'. There is a remote possibility that it is an historical usage which should have been converted long ago. 23:09 kados do I need to add it as @000 ? 23:08 kados but it still doesn't show up when I try to edit a MARC record 23:08 kados hmmm ... I added a 000 to my 'Book' Framewokr 23:06 thd kados: plugins may not cure typos but can certainly reduce them and at least leave you with a valid record of some sort. 23:05 thd kados: maybe the first part is a typo. 23:04 thd kados: your previous example is the monograph component part of a nonstandard (not in the MARC standard) record type. 23:03 kados can you tell me what the correct code for a simple Book (Monograph) should be? 23:03 thd kados: your last example is the monograph component part of a mixed material. 23:01 thd kados: paul wrote that, I suggested good default values for the most likely use in Koha. 23:00 kados thd: the plugin? 23:00 kados thd: did you write the 'marc21leader.pl'? 22:57 kados '00994pam 2200301 a 4500' 22:57 kados how's this: 22:57 thd kados: I did send the message I just did not attach incomplete code to it to prove an obvious point. 22:56 kados Code n (Special instructional material) is obsolete. Defined 1975-1983; use code k (Two-dimensional nonprojectable graphic) and code r (Three-dimensional artifacts and naturally occurring objects). 22:56 kados I got that from one of my client's catalogs 22:55 kados no offense, but you've got to just send those messages even if they are not 100% complete 22:55 thd kados: where did n come from? 22:54 kados '00428nam 2200145u 4500' 22:53 thd kados: yes, I started it months ago for a message to koha-devel until too many additional fields were involved for a simple message. 22:53 kados oops ... 22:53 kados '00428nam 2200145u' 4500 look right to you? 22:53 kados for now could you just tell me what the value should be for a book? 22:52 kados yea? 22:52 thd kados: That is easy, I have the Perl code already. 22:52 kados i need a valid string for 'BOOK(MONOGRAPH)' :-) 22:51 kados shit ... I don't want to have to decode that :-) 22:51 thd kados: I had given you the related 008 table before but see the table at the bottom of http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0021.htm 22:46 thd kados: That same table for 000/06-07 22:45 thd kados: UNIMARC Koha only has some of that more complete list. They have no realia framework for cataloguing cannonballs and paintings. 22:45 kados thd: do you know where I can find out what the leader should be for each of those materials? 22:44 kados phew :-) 22:44 kados Sound Recording(Musical) 22:44 kados Serial (Printed Periodical, etc.) 22:44 kados Sound Recordings (nonmusical) 22:43 kados Three dimensional Artifact, Object 22:43 thd kados: UNIMARC Koha has those, however, they are full of mistakes and the libraries that paul has do not care. 22:43 kados Music (Printed) 22:43 kados Mixed Material 22:43 kados Maps Globes and Atlases 22:43 kados Manuscript Lanuage Material 22:43 kados Kit (Book and nonmusical Casette) 22:43 kados Picture, study Print, Photograph, Chart 22:43 kados Video (film, filmstrip, transparency) 22:42 thd kados: There should be a national level one just to prove that Koha can be used for national level cataloguing. 22:42 kados Computer File 22:42 kados Book (monograph) 22:42 kados minimally: 22:42 kados then one for each materials designation 22:42 kados a general one where the user is prompted to enter values for all relevant fields 22:42 kados thd: I'm starting to think we're going to need several frameworks 22:41 thd kados: I am specifying minimal requirements for all subfields. After that is done and carefully checked we can discuss what other standard frameworks should be created. I am carefully noting the salient differences for national framework which would be a modest modification. 22:38 kados yep, and I've already written one of those :-) 22:37 thd kados: Some plugins need to be written as well but nothing major for minimal compliance. 22:37 kados that's why they sent me several :-) 22:36 kados of course ... 22:36 thd kados: one default framework will be insufficient for meeting needs. 22:35 kados materials designation, etc. 22:35 kados thd: of course not ... just the tags/subfields they need to be in certain frameworks and how to fill the fix fields, etc. 22:35 thd s/the/they/ 22:35 thd kados: Do you mean the have given you a copy of the SQL already? 22:34 kados several actually 22:34 kados I got a specification from a potential client 22:34 thd kados: Too much work required to finish tonight. 22:33 kados thd: I may have finished my framework before you finish yours :-) 22:33 thd kados: After I finish the framework, I will send you the long delayed message about how that can be remedied for every library. 22:32 kados due largely to their current cataloging practices 22:32 kados there's nothing that valid MARC would give them that they don't already have 22:31 thd kados: That is not an uncommon problem even where there are simply not enough professional cataloguers. 22:30 kados they don't have professional catalogers even 22:30 kados I mean that even if Koha didn't, it wouldn't matter to them 22:30 kados no ... 22:30 thd kados: You merely mean that Koha ignores that data now? 22:30 kados in fact, there would be absolutely no advantage for NPL 22:29 kados just that valid wouldn't help :-) 22:29 kados I didn't say invalid would help :-) 22:29 kados um ... the point is valid marc would do nothing _for_ them 22:29 thd kados: Why would invalid MARC help NPL? :-) 22:28 kados nope 22:28 thd kados: There must have been something before that which was not a public message. 22:28 kados thd: having valid marc would give them zippo ... nadda 22:28 kados thd: in fact, it doesn't matter for NPL at all 22:27 thd kados shedges: saving scrambled tags? 22:27 thd shedges kados: so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags? 22:27 thd kados: I have from this point on and seem to have had an uninterrupted connection for much of today.. 22:23 kados sorry then :-) 22:23 thd kados: I saw some log from today but I must have missed part of the discussion and logbot was down. 22:21 kados thd: I tried ... did you see my earlier message to stephen? 22:21 thd kados: was it not your job to look after their data for them? :) 22:20 kados thd: they don't 22:19 thd kados: pass? 22:19 kados thd: pass 22:17 thd kados: Dose NPL not have the data preserved for recovering what was lost inside Koha? 22:17 thd kados: I will add that to my grabkoha.sh script that is doing all the repetitious tasks now. 22:15 kados and you can get to work on frameworks :-) 22:15 kados then you'll be done :-) 22:15 kados updater/updatedatabase 22:15 kados export KOHA_CONF=/path/to/koha.conf 22:14 kados ie, the 'koha' directory 22:14 kados cd /path/to/koha/cvs/repo 22:14 thd kados: NPL has an external record store that it can use for recovering 00X and anything else that may need recovering from the SQL void in Koha does it not? 22:14 kados thd: do this exactly: 22:12 kados cool 22:12 thd kados: back to that just after I succeed with updatedatabase 22:11 thd kados: yes 22:11 kados thd: which you're working on right? 22:10 thd kados: yes, a better default framework. 22:09 thd kados: Also paul had cited an additional if clause for MARCdetail.pl that seems not to be present in opac-MARCdetail.pl. 22:09 kados thd: are those a matter of a better default framework? 22:09 kados i commited both MARCdetail and opac-MARCdetail in rel_2_2 IIRC 22:08 thd kados: I saw no commit to MARCdetail.pl only to opac-MARCdetail.pl. 22:06 thd kados: That does not cure all about which Steven was commenting. That is however, where, he was observing that issue. Other issues that he had were not mere appearance. 22:06 kados wait ... didin't to head 22:05 kados already did 22:04 thd kados: I can commit the corresponding changes for the intranet and also to HEAD. 22:04 kados thd: so we should be safe :-) 22:04 kados thd: but it's a syspref 22:04 kados thd: yep 22:03 thd kados: I see that you committed the code to opac-MARCdetail.pl to rel_2_2. 18:27 kados yay logbot 18:06 kados then we can start working on some kind of XML-based profile for library records 18:06 kados I think for that we'll have to wait until 3.0's finished and we've got the new holdings forest in place 18:04 shedges it would certainly make life in the Web much easier! 18:03 kados that would be truly innovative 18:03 kados yep 18:02 shedges ...or just goes to all XML and let's MARC die... 18:01 kados unless we can come up with a clever way to intuit that info from the data 18:01 kados it just means that NPL won't ever have script MARC-compliant records 18:00 kados it doesn't strictly affect any performance ... 18:00 kados because paul's original bulkmarcimport discarded those fields 17:59 shedges ah, right 17:59 kados the unfortunate bit is that NPL lost all the 00X fields on import 17:58 kados you have to follow AACR2 17:58 kados no 17:58 shedges is the leader flexible enough to store user-defined item types? 17:57 kados turns out I was right :-) 17:57 kados btw: remember way back when when i was trying to get us to look at the leader and fixed fields rather than a local use tag for itemtype? 17:56 kados shedges: do you mean for libraries like NPL? 17:56 kados shedges: saving scrambled tags? 17:55 shedges kados: so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags? 16:59 kados thd-away: we may also want to formulate an answer to Stephen about it, explaining that it was nothing but a display issue 16:58 kados thd-away: once you confirm it's working as expected I'll post a note to koha-devel 16:57 kados thd-away: LabelMARCView support is now committed into CVS and seems to be working on LibLime's demo 16:30 kados ouch is right :/ 16:07 thd kados: I will provide all information in commented files when I return from having a filling replaced. ouch 16:05 kados yep 15:52 thd s/several/a few/ 15:52 thd kados: I have to go to the dentist. Wil you be around in several hours? 15:51 kados thd: just tell me the lines, I'll commit the change 15:51 kados thd: when I get back, let me know which lines I should look at in the MARC detail pages 15:51 thd kados: I could commit the two files to rel_2_2 now and you can update them with the needed nested if else clauses for using the system preference. I have not studied hdl's instructions to you or closely examined an isolated example to do that yet. 15:46 thd kados: I have the environment variables in my bash profile so I assumed that I was safe. 15:45 kados thd: it's a good rule of thumb 15:45 kados thd: because so many things can go wrong if you don't 15:45 kados thd: before I ever run any script I always set KOHA_CONF and PERL5LIB 15:45 kados thd: if you know 15:45 kados thd: can you tell me which lines to enclose in the syspref for opac-MARC detail et all 15:44 kados thd: with the new syspref 15:44 kados thd: updatedatabase is updated 15:44 thd kados: Does updatedatabase need the working directory context? 15:43 thd kados: I may not have used cd to the directory first. Does that make a difference? 15:41 thd kados: Actually, thinking carefully there is a comment in updatedatabase that seems to suppose no value in reading koha.conf but that may be a forgotten ancient historic artifact. 15:40 kados and it'll automatically put C4 in PERL5LIB 15:40 kados just run updatedatabase from within the CVS koha dir 15:40 kados I'm not sure 15:38 thd maybe root had actually unset it and it was restored with a new shell as it should have been when I tested. 15:35 thd s/Do/Do you/ 15:35 thd kados: Do have any idea what could clobber PERL5LIB for sudo on a Debian testing system? 15:34 thd kados: I should try updating the database again because I found that sudo had lost PERL5LIB even though root and I still had it. 15:32 kados try exporting KOHA_CONF and running it again 15:32 kados well they're there 15:31 thd kados: As far as I know nothing updated when I ran the database updater. 15:31 kados did you updatedatabase? 15:30 thd kados: I do not see them in the latest rel_2_2 that I am running. 15:29 thd kados: You had added ones for Amazon and one for linking to other resources outside Koha. 15:28 kados thd: do you mean? 15:28 kados thd: which sys prefs? 15:28 kados done now 15:28 kados was just handling a support issue 15:28 kados I'm here 15:27 thd kados: or have you succumbed to your fever from last night? 15:25 thd kados: are you still there? 15:24 thd kados: Did you commit the extra system preferences to rel_2_2? 15:23 thd kados: I have been using the latest rel_2_2 but I do not see the system preferences that you added. 15:23 thd kados: actually, that field would not have appeared previously in the record editor so it would have gone unnoticed. 15:21 thd kados: I wonder how many inexperienced part time cataloguers may have mucked up new records with that alone. 15:20 thd kados: I hope there are no more additional places for libraries to use the wrong mislabeled field to store ISBN numbers. 15:19 thd kados: I still have much more to do. 15:18 kados thd: cool 15:18 thd kados: I did stay up much of last night working on the default framework for MARC 21 but I had forgotten how much was missing and incorrect. 15:18 kados thd: ok ... I'll make it so 15:18 kados thd: right ... 15:17 thd kados: It also reserves a distinction for the coded but otherwise unlabelled MARC view that should be there and could easily be added. 15:15 thd kados: That is less verbose and perfectly clear. 15:14 thd kados: Labled MARC View: standard | economical 15:12 thd kados: However, that is in the context of meeting librarians' expectations so they do not run in the other direction after a brief look at Koha before they understand its fantastic benefits. 15:11 thd kados: The usual one you see everywhere with only codes is something that is missing from Koha and probably expected by MARC fanatics and is certainly beyond what we are talking about. 15:10 kados thd: that's above and beyond what we're talking about though 15:10 kados syspref MARC Labels yes/no 15:09 kados you mean MARC view with no labels at all? 15:09 thd kados: also I have no clue about what I would expect when choosing no in your example 15:09 kados thd: er? what's that? 15:08 thd kados: There should be some attempt at distinguishing the traditional codes only MARC view from the one with semantic labels otherwise the user will expect something that Koha does not have at the moment but which could be added with fairly trivial work. 15:06 kados yes/no 15:06 kados Standard MARC Layout 15:05 kados how about 15:05 kados yep 15:05 thd kados: that is much less verbose but also unclear. 15:04 thd kados: MARCSVV: 0 | 1 :) 15:02 thd kados: There should also be a very traditional MARC view that is very compact with no semantic labels. 15:02 kados :-) 15:02 kados too verbose I'm afraid 15:02 kados hehe 15:01 thd kados: MARC Semantic View Verbosity: standard | economical 14:59 thd kados: That was a complaint of some of his customers so less verbose and and more correct need a system preference. 14:58 kados thd: can you think of a good name for the new syspref? 14:58 kados thd: we just need to put a simple 'if' statement before some lines right? 14:58 kados thd: I understand that 14:57 thd kados: paul had made the MARC display less verbose and making it appear as if something is wrong underneath even when everything is right. 14:57 kados thd: just let me know what the fix is 14:56 kados thd: I can do the pref and the fix 14:56 thd kados: I have a fix for one issue for both the intranet and the OPAC but we need a new preference to commit to rel_2_2. 14:55 kados thd: if you think that would be good 14:55 kados thd: I can make the modif to LibLime's demo 14:54 kados thd: or at least we have a fix 14:54 kados thd: right ... but that's cleared up now right? 14:54 thd kados: I was distracted by appearance in the MARC display that was obviously scaring off libraries independent of having even a perfect framework. 14:52 kados thd: so that libraries won't be scared off :-) 14:52 kados thd: so the first job for me is to get a nice looking default framework on the demo 14:52 thd kados: 000/06-07 are absolutely required but libraries using Koha with an incomplete framework that lost their original records may have no 000. 14:50 thd kados: 000/06-07 is the best starting point for framework selection. 14:49 thd kados: 245 $h is not in all records and cannot be used alone as the basis. 14:48 thd s/compile/complete/ 14:48 thd kados: I have not finished the compile and fully validated default framework. I was delayed starting and continuing by odd template behaviour. 14:46 kados thd: that sound familiar? 14:46 kados 245$h and a number of other fields ... 14:46 kados she was describing 'materials designation' as the most important distinction to use when deciding what framework to use 14:46 kados so hopefully soon I'll have several framework options on the liblime demos 14:46 kados I'm getting some framework suggestions from a cataloger who works in a prospective client's library 14:45 thd kados: $a is unique within 020 14:45 kados both? 14:45 thd kados: absolutely 14:45 kados well ... the tag 020 anyway, how about the subfield $a? 14:45 thd good evening hdl_away 14:44 kados I think yes right? 14:44 kados should isbn be repeatable? 14:44 hdl Well folks, 14:44 thd kados: That should not be a generic default for all cases but would certainly be an understandable one. 14:44 kados thanks guys, that really helps 14:44 hdl thd Thx. 14:43 thd kados: If and only if you were in a library where you expected all books catalogued using the new books framework to have ISBNs then in that case it probably should be set to mandatory. 14:42 hdl And norms must get adapted to uses.... :D 14:42 hdl Is that not the strict norm ? ;) 14:41 kados thd: but in some cases it's not there ... why would it be mandatory? 14:41 hdl Unless provided a value you cannot input data. 14:41 hdl kados: When set to mandatory : value is needed. 14:41 thd kados: Almost certainly 020 $a has been set to mandatory. 14:41 kados hdl: Tab:0, | Koha field: biblioitems.isbn, Not repeatable, Mandatory 14:40 kados hdl: 020$a is set to: 14:40 kados hdl: if it's set to 'mandatory' it will behave that way? 14:40 thd hdl: The original order being based on estimated or provisional prices where even the price of the books might change by the time that the order was fulfilled. 14:39 hdl default framework can have been a little modified. 14:39 kados but it's default framework 14:39 kados ahh 14:39 hdl kados: It could be a framework parameter also :) 14:38 kados might be a template issue ... I'll look into it 14:38 kados one of my clients is unable to delete isbns or save the record without the isbn value filled 14:38 hdl thd: If you have some time, try Acquisition an parcel management and you will see the core of my question. 14:38 paul mmm... not that I remember atm 14:37 kados paul: do you know of a problem with the MARC editor where ISBN cannot be deleted? 14:36 thd hdl: Therefore, the original expected shipping price at the time the order was placed may be understood as only an estimate. 14:34 thd hdl: For an ongoing business relationship the vendor is likely to charge for each partial shipment and because there is likely to be a minimum charge for each package the total may be more than if everything could have been sent in one package. 14:31 thd hdl: Often packing slips will be a form similar to the invoice except that the important numbers apart from quantity may be greyed out. 14:30 hdl I hope bills are not too localized but doubt it. 14:30 hdl send those too :) 14:29 thd hdl: Packing slips are also useful to see what accompanies a shipment when the bill or invoice is usually separate. 14:28 hdl kados, owen, chris, rach, shedges, or russ : could you send some different orders and reception bill exemples ? 14:27 hdl thd: Sure, but would certainly be quite awkward ;) 14:27 thd hdl: Otherwise, if you know any small shopkeeper well enough to ask any business would have such records. 14:25 thd hdl: However, you must be able to ask some of your libraries to send copies of some examples that show varied practices. 14:24 thd hdl: Unfortunately, I was not the record keeper for my own business and no longer have such documentation. 14:22 hdl thd: Would you have some bills to send me as examples. 14:22 paul but at least works a little ! 14:22 paul mmm... seems to work imperfectly. 14:22 thd hdl: For any customers there may be an itemised invoice or packing slip attributing a shipping price to each item shipped. 14:19 thd s/their/there/ 14:18 thd hdl: In every case their may be a vendor set basis of a fixed minimum fee for the presumed package plus something for each item shipped. The vendor's own calculation may be based on weight and size or more usually a set fee per item that is averaged in the vendor's own calculations between the expected total volume of heavy and large and light and small, 14:16 paul I changed nothing except this in most scripts, and that work fine. 14:15 paul I have included Encode::decode_utf8() at the right place, and it seems to work fine ! 14:15 paul AND : 14:15 paul it is 100% pure perl. It also requires only 1 line change in Context.pm 14:15 paul that is a 100% Pure Perl mySQL connector. 14:14 paul it relies on mysqlPP package. 14:14 paul it seems that i have a correct solution to our utf8 problem. 14:14 paul a GOOD news, that has to be confirmed in 2 days (tomorrow i won't be here) 14:14 paul BUT : 14:14 paul kados : it's almost time to leave for me. 14:12 thd hdl: For customers such as libraries and bookshops the business relationship that the vendor has may be rather different. 14:11 kados warn Dumper($variable); 14:11 kados ; even 14:11 paul data::dumper, thanks 14:10 kados use Data::Dumper' 14:10 paul how to dump the content of a variable in perl ? 14:10 paul a quick question : 14:10 thd hdl: In the ordinary retail transaction the vendor will seldom raise the price originally set for shipping even if there are many partial shipments to fulfil the order. 14:08 thd hdl: The vendor in an ordinary retail transaction will set a charge based on the vendor's needs but the real fee for shipping may be hidden in the profit on the price of the books themselves. 14:08 kados hdl: that's not so confusing :-) 14:08 kados hdl: maybe we should think up a new term for 3.0 14:07 hdl thd: still listening. 14:07 hdl kados : are they speaking french ? Som of our customers would also ask the question the same way. 14:06 thd hdl: In an ordinary retail transaction you usually know the shipping charge in advance. 14:05 hdl thd: tell me 14:04 thd hdl: There is often a difference between how freight is assessed on shipments to some types of customers such as bookshops and libraries as opposed to ordinary retail customers. 13:47 kados causing no end of confusion until I realized how they were using the word :-) 13:47 kados so they were 'debarring' every patron they added :-) 13:46 kados :-) 13:46 kados 'debarr' meant 'not barred' 13:46 kados one of my clients was confused and thought that 13:46 kados hehe 13:35 hdl (except that it is a value and not a percentile) 13:32 hdl Moreover, some ppl told me that VAT in france depended upon the books or the booksellers. (But Koha is great. It manages that for a parcel.) 13:31 hdl And maybe, but I am not an expert, after that the VAT (GST) is calculated. 13:30 hdl So it should not be multiplied for each order line but should be added to total. 13:29 owen thd: a "best feature" for a librarian isn't necessarily the best feature for a patron 13:29 hdl You pay it for the whole parcel because of its weight. 13:29 hdl To my mind freight is like "frais de port" in french. 13:29 hdl thd: I mean 13:28 hdl thd: And sent a mail on koha-devel about that matter 13:28 thd hdl: You mean multiplied improperly and not based on the number of copies or total items ordered? 13:28 hdl thd: that seems quite different ;) But I wait and listen to you. 13:27 hdl I asked about the freight being multiplied for each order line :) 13:26 hdl thd : No. 13:26 thd hdl: you had been asking about shipping costs divided by the number of items received and associated with the item in normal acquisitions. 13:23 thd ? 13:23 thd paul: Should '...' not be some symbol or text that signifies its function clearly to any new user. 13:21 thd paul: Why was .the inconspicuous "..." chosen to hide the best features of Koha instead of something more visible? Especially in the OPAC, it must be missed by most patrons who would not have special information about Koha features. 13:14 thd paul: This hack is actually sufficiently functional to provide for the possibility of creating standards compliant records in the Koha record editor that had been impossible for many common cases previously. 13:11 thd paul: Changing field order is important for sequencing linked fields and also for altering primary, secondary, etc. importance in repeated fields. 13:09 paul nope. This hack was just a dirty hack before Koha 3.0 that will be shipped with a new marc editor 13:08 thd paul: Will you also add changing the order of entire repeated fields? 13:06 thd shedges: Oh yes, up and up but that still allows changing the order of the subfields. 13:06 shedges (we all use Windows on this side of the atlantic) 13:05 paul hello everybody. Still stuck with utf8 on this side of atlantic :-( 13:05 shedges hi paul! 13:05 paul i'll do it for 2.2.6 13:05 paul no, it hasn't yet. 13:05 shedges (not good!) 13:05 shedges thd: has that feature been improved? It used to be that you could keep moving subfields up and up, into the previous tag, and the previous tag... 13:05 owen Okay, I'll check it out 13:05 thd owen: Yes. 13:04 owen You're talking about addbiblio, right? 13:04 thd owen: yes that is what I mean 13:04 owen Do you mean the NPL template provides no such support now? 13:03 thd owen: the default intranet template has support for moving subfields up and down within the field in the record editor for rel_2_2. The intranet template provides no such support now. 12:58 thd are you feeling better kados? 12:58 owen Hi 12:58 shedges morning owen 11:59 shedges morning kados 11:59 kados hi all 11:58 kados morning stephen