Time  Nick    Message
11:58 kados   morning stephen
11:59 kados   hi all
11:59 shedges morning kados
12:58 shedges morning owen
12:58 owen    Hi
12:58 thd     are you feeling better kados?
13:03 thd     owen: the default intranet template has support for moving subfields up and down within the field in the record editor for  rel_2_2.  The intranet template provides no such support now.
13:04 owen    Do you mean the NPL template provides no such support now?
13:04 thd     owen: yes that is what I mean
13:04 owen    You're talking about addbiblio, right?
13:05 thd     owen: Yes.
13:05 owen    Okay, I'll check it out
13:05 shedges thd:  has that feature been improved?  It used to be that you could keep moving subfields up and up, into the previous tag, and the previous tag...
13:05 shedges (not good!)
13:05 paul    no, it hasn't yet.
13:05 paul    i'll do it for 2.2.6
13:05 shedges hi paul!
13:05 paul    hello everybody. Still stuck with utf8 on this side of atlantic :-(
13:06 shedges (we all use Windows on this side of the atlantic)
13:06 thd     shedges: Oh yes, up and up but that still allows changing the order of the subfields.
13:08 thd     paul: Will you also add changing the order of entire repeated fields?
13:09 paul    nope. This hack was just a dirty hack before Koha 3.0 that will be shipped with a new marc editor
13:11 thd     paul: Changing field order is important for sequencing linked fields and also for altering primary, secondary, etc. importance in repeated fields.
13:14 thd     paul: This hack is actually sufficiently functional to provide for the possibility of creating standards compliant records in the Koha record editor that had been impossible for many common cases previously.
13:21 thd     paul: Why was .the inconspicuous "..." chosen to hide the best features of Koha instead of something more visible?  Especially in the OPAC, it must be missed by most patrons who would not have special information about Koha features.
13:23 thd     paul: Should '...' not be some symbol or text that signifies its function clearly to any new user.
13:23 thd     ?
13:26 thd     hdl: you had been asking about shipping costs divided by the number of items received and associated with the item in normal acquisitions.
13:26 hdl     thd : No.
13:27 hdl     I asked about the freight being multiplied for each order line :)
13:28 hdl     thd: that seems quite different ;) But I wait and listen to you.
13:28 thd     hdl: You mean multiplied improperly and not based on the number of copies or total items ordered?
13:28 hdl     thd: And sent a mail on koha-devel about that matter
13:29 hdl     thd: I mean
13:29 hdl     To my mind freight is like "frais de port" in french.
13:29 hdl     You pay it for the whole parcel because of its weight.
13:29 owen    thd: a "best feature" for a librarian isn't necessarily the best feature for a patron
13:30 hdl     So it should not be multiplied for each order line but should be added to total.
13:31 hdl     And maybe, but I am not an expert, after that the VAT (GST) is calculated.
13:32 hdl     Moreover, some ppl told me that VAT in france depended upon the books or the booksellers. (But Koha is great. It manages that for a parcel.)
13:35 hdl     (except that it is a value and not a percentile)
13:46 kados   hehe
13:46 kados   one of my clients was confused and thought that
13:46 kados   'debarr' meant 'not barred'
13:46 kados   :-)
13:47 kados   so they were 'debarring' every patron they added :-)
13:47 kados   causing no end of confusion until I realized how they were using the word :-)
14:04 thd     hdl: There is often a difference between how freight is assessed on shipments to some types of customers such as bookshops and libraries as opposed to ordinary retail customers.
14:05 hdl     thd:  tell me
14:06 thd     hdl: In an ordinary retail transaction you usually know the shipping charge in advance.
14:07 hdl     kados : are they speaking french ? Som of our customers would also ask the question the same way.
14:07 hdl     thd: still listening.
14:08 kados   hdl: maybe we should think up a new term for 3.0
14:08 kados   hdl: that's not so confusing :-)
14:08 thd     hdl: The vendor in an ordinary retail transaction will set a charge based on the vendor's needs but the real fee for shipping may be hidden in the profit on the price of the books themselves.
14:10 thd     hdl: In the ordinary retail transaction the vendor will seldom raise the price originally set for shipping even if there are many partial shipments to fulfil the order.
14:10 paul    a quick question :
14:10 paul    how to dump the content of a variable in perl ?
14:10 kados   use Data::Dumper'
14:11 paul    data::dumper, thanks
14:11 kados   ; even
14:11 kados   warn Dumper($variable);
14:12 thd     hdl: For customers such as libraries and bookshops the business relationship that the vendor has may be rather different.
14:14 paul    kados : it's almost time to leave for me.
14:14 paul    BUT :
14:14 paul    a GOOD news, that has to be confirmed in 2 days (tomorrow i won't be here)
14:14 paul    it seems that i have a correct solution to our utf8 problem.
14:14 paul    it relies on mysqlPP package.
14:15 paul    that is a 100% Pure Perl mySQL connector.
14:15 paul    it is 100% pure perl. It also requires only 1 line change in Context.pm
14:15 paul    AND :
14:15 paul    I have included Encode::decode_utf8() at the right place, and it seems to work fine !
14:16 paul    I changed nothing except this in most scripts, and that work fine.
14:18 thd     hdl: In every case their may be a vendor set basis of a fixed minimum fee for the presumed package plus something for each item shipped.  The vendor's own calculation may be based on weight and size or more usually a set fee per item that is averaged in the vendor's own calculations between the expected total volume of heavy and large and light and small,
14:19 thd     s/their/there/
14:22 thd     hdl: For any customers there may be an itemised invoice or packing slip attributing a shipping price to each item shipped.
14:22 paul    mmm... seems to work imperfectly.
14:22 paul    but at least works a little !
14:22 hdl     thd: Would you have some bills to send me as examples.
14:24 thd     hdl: Unfortunately, I was not the record keeper for my own business and no longer have such documentation.
14:25 thd     hdl: However, you must be able to ask some of your libraries to send copies of some examples that show varied practices.
14:27 thd     hdl: Otherwise, if you know any small shopkeeper well enough to ask any business would have such records.
14:27 hdl     thd: Sure, but would certainly be quite awkward ;)
14:28 hdl     kados, owen, chris, rach, shedges, or russ  : could you send some different orders and reception bill exemples ?
14:29 thd     hdl: Packing slips are also useful to see what accompanies a shipment when the bill or invoice is usually separate.
14:30 hdl     send those too :)
14:30 hdl     I hope bills are not too localized but doubt it.
14:31 thd     hdl: Often packing slips will be a form similar to the invoice except that the important numbers apart from quantity may be greyed out.
14:34 thd     hdl: For an ongoing business relationship the vendor is likely to charge for each partial shipment and because there is likely to be a minimum charge for each package the total may be more than if everything could have been sent in one package.
14:36 thd     hdl: Therefore, the original expected shipping price at the time the order was placed may be understood as only an estimate.
14:37 kados   paul: do you know of a problem with the MARC editor where ISBN cannot be deleted?
14:38 paul    mmm... not that I remember atm
14:38 hdl     thd: If you have some time, try Acquisition an parcel management and you will see the core of my question.
14:38 kados   one of my clients is unable to delete isbns or save the record without the isbn value filled
14:38 kados   might be a template issue ... I'll look into it
14:39 hdl     kados: It could be a framework parameter also :)
14:39 kados   ahh
14:39 kados   but it's default framework
14:39 hdl     default framework can have been a little modified.
14:40 thd     hdl: The original order being based on estimated or provisional prices where even the price of the books might change by the time that the order was fulfilled.
14:40 kados   hdl: if it's set to 'mandatory' it will behave that way?
14:40 kados   hdl: 020$a is set to:
14:41 kados   hdl: Tab:0, | Koha field: biblioitems.isbn, Not repeatable, Mandatory
14:41 thd     kados: Almost certainly 020 $a has been set to mandatory.
14:41 hdl     kados: When set to mandatory : value is needed.
14:41 hdl     Unless provided a value you cannot input data.
14:41 kados   thd: but in some cases it's not there ... why would it be mandatory?
14:42 hdl     Is that not the strict norm ? ;)
14:42 hdl     And norms must get adapted to uses.... :D
14:43 thd     kados: If and only if you were in a library where you expected all books catalogued using the new books framework to have ISBNs then in that case it probably should be set to mandatory.
14:44 hdl     thd Thx.
14:44 kados   thanks guys, that really helps
14:44 thd     kados: That should not be a generic default for all cases but would certainly be an understandable one.
14:44 hdl     Well folks,
14:44 kados   should isbn be repeatable?
14:44 kados   I think yes right?
14:45 thd     good evening hdl_away
14:45 kados   well ... the tag 020 anyway, how about the subfield $a?
14:45 thd     kados: absolutely
14:45 kados   both?
14:45 thd     kados: $a is unique within 020
14:46 kados   I'm getting some framework suggestions from a cataloger who works in a prospective client's library
14:46 kados   so hopefully soon I'll have several framework options on the liblime demos
14:46 kados   she was describing 'materials designation' as the most important distinction to use when deciding what framework to use
14:46 kados   245$h and a number of other fields ...
14:46 kados   thd: that sound familiar?
14:48 thd     kados: I have not finished the compile and fully validated default framework.  I was delayed starting and continuing by odd template behaviour.
14:48 thd     s/compile/complete/
14:49 thd     kados: 245 $h is not in all records and cannot be used alone as the basis.
14:50 thd     kados: 000/06-07 is the best starting point for framework selection.
14:52 thd     kados: 000/06-07 are absolutely required but libraries using Koha with an incomplete framework that lost their original records may have no 000.
14:52 kados   thd: so the first job for me is to get a nice looking default framework on the demo
14:52 kados   thd: so that libraries won't be scared off :-)
14:54 thd     kados: I was distracted by appearance in the MARC display that was obviously scaring off libraries independent of having even a perfect framework.
14:54 kados   thd: right ... but that's cleared up now right?
14:54 kados   thd: or at least we have a fix
14:55 kados   thd: I can make the modif to LibLime's demo
14:55 kados   thd: if you think that would be good
14:56 thd     kados: I have a fix for one issue for both the intranet and the OPAC but we need a new preference to commit to rel_2_2.
14:56 kados   thd: I can do the pref and the fix
14:57 kados   thd: just let me know what the fix is
14:57 thd     kados: paul had made the MARC display less verbose and making it appear as if something is wrong underneath even when everything is right.
14:58 kados   thd: I understand that
14:58 kados   thd: we just need to put a simple 'if' statement before some lines right?
14:58 kados   thd: can you think of a good name for the new syspref?
14:59 thd     kados: That was a complaint of some of his customers so less verbose and and more correct need a system preference.
15:01 thd     kados: MARC Semantic View Verbosity: standard | economical
15:02 kados   hehe
15:02 kados   too verbose I'm afraid
15:02 kados   :-)
15:02 thd     kados: There should also be a very traditional MARC view that is very compact with no semantic labels.
15:04 thd     kados: MARCSVV: 0 | 1 :)
15:05 thd     kados: that is much less verbose but also unclear.
15:05 kados   yep
15:05 kados   how about
15:06 kados   Standard MARC Layout
15:06 kados   yes/no
15:08 thd     kados: There should be some attempt at distinguishing the traditional codes only MARC view from the one with semantic labels otherwise the user will expect something that Koha does not have at the moment but which could be added with fairly trivial work.
15:09 kados   thd: er? what's that?
15:09 thd     kados: also I have no clue about what I would expect when choosing no in your example
15:09 kados   you mean MARC view with no labels at all?
15:10 kados   syspref MARC Labels yes/no
15:10 kados   thd: that's above and beyond what we're talking about though
15:11 thd     kados: The usual one you see everywhere with only codes is something that is missing from Koha and probably expected by MARC fanatics and is certainly beyond what we are talking about.
15:12 thd     kados: However, that is in the context of meeting librarians' expectations so they do not run in the other direction after a brief look at Koha before they understand its fantastic benefits.
15:14 thd     kados: Labled MARC View:  standard | economical
15:15 thd     kados: That is less verbose and perfectly clear.
15:17 thd     kados: It also reserves a distinction for the coded but otherwise unlabelled MARC view that should be there and could easily be added.
15:18 kados   thd: right ...
15:18 kados   thd: ok ... I'll make it so
15:18 thd     kados: I did stay up much of last night working on the default framework for MARC 21 but I had forgotten how much was missing and incorrect.
15:18 kados   thd: cool
15:19 thd     kados: I still have much more to do.
15:20 thd     kados: I hope there are no more additional places for libraries to use the wrong mislabeled field to store ISBN numbers.
15:21 thd     kados: I wonder how many inexperienced part time cataloguers may have mucked up new records with that alone.
15:23 thd     kados: actually, that field would not have appeared previously in the record editor so it would have gone unnoticed.
15:23 thd     kados: I have been using the latest rel_2_2 but I do not see the system preferences that you added.
15:24 thd     kados: Did you commit the extra system preferences to rel_2_2?
15:25 thd     kados: are you still there?
15:27 thd     kados: or have you succumbed to your fever from last night?
15:28 kados   I'm here
15:28 kados   was just handling a support issue
15:28 kados   done now
15:28 kados   thd: which sys prefs?
15:28 kados   thd: do you mean?
15:29 thd     kados: You had added ones for Amazon and one for linking to other resources outside Koha.
15:30 thd     kados: I do not see them in the latest rel_2_2 that I am running.
15:31 kados   did you updatedatabase?
15:31 thd     kados: As far as I know nothing updated when I ran the database updater.
15:32 kados   well they're there
15:32 kados   try exporting KOHA_CONF and running it again
15:34 thd     kados: I should try updating the database again because I found that sudo had lost PERL5LIB even though root and I still had it.
15:35 thd     kados: Do have any idea what could clobber PERL5LIB for sudo on a Debian testing system?
15:35 thd     s/Do/Do you/
15:38 thd     maybe root had actually unset it and it was restored with a new shell as it should have been when I tested.
15:40 kados   I'm not sure
15:40 kados   just run updatedatabase from within the CVS koha dir
15:40 kados   and it'll automatically put C4 in PERL5LIB
15:41 thd     kados: Actually, thinking carefully there is a comment in updatedatabase that seems to suppose no value in reading koha.conf but that may be a forgotten ancient historic artifact.
15:43 thd     kados: I may not have used cd to the directory first.  Does that make a difference?
15:44 thd     kados: Does updatedatabase need the working directory context?
15:44 kados   thd: updatedatabase is updated
15:44 kados   thd: with the new syspref
15:45 kados   thd: can you tell me which lines to enclose in the syspref for opac-MARC detail et all
15:45 kados   thd: if you know
15:45 kados   thd: before I ever run any script I always set KOHA_CONF and PERL5LIB
15:45 kados   thd: because so many things can go wrong if you don't
15:45 kados   thd: it's a good rule of thumb
15:46 thd     kados: I have the environment variables in my bash profile so I assumed that I was safe.
15:51 thd     kados: I could commit the two files to rel_2_2 now and you can update them with the needed nested if else clauses for using the system preference.  I have not studied hdl's instructions to you or closely examined an isolated example to do that yet.
15:51 kados   thd: when I get back, let me know which lines I should look at in the MARC detail pages
15:51 kados   thd: just tell me the lines, I'll commit the change
15:52 thd     kados: I have to go to the dentist.  Wil you be around in several hours?
15:52 thd     s/several/a few/
16:05 kados   yep
16:07 thd     kados: I will provide all information in commented files when I return from having a filling replaced.  ouch
16:30 kados   ouch is right :/
16:57 kados   thd-away: LabelMARCView support is now committed into CVS and seems to be working on LibLime's demo
16:58 kados   thd-away: once you confirm it's working as expected I'll post a note to koha-devel
16:59 kados   thd-away: we may also want to formulate an answer to Stephen about it, explaining that it was nothing but a display issue
17:55 shedges kados:  so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags?
17:56 kados   shedges: saving scrambled tags?
17:56 kados   shedges: do you mean for libraries like NPL?
17:57 kados   btw: remember way back when when i was trying to get us to look at the leader and fixed fields rather than a local use tag for itemtype?
17:57 kados   turns out I was right :-)
17:58 shedges is the leader flexible enough to store user-defined item types?
17:58 kados   no
17:58 kados   you have to follow AACR2
17:59 kados   the unfortunate bit is that NPL lost all the 00X fields on import
17:59 shedges ah, right
18:00 kados   because paul's original bulkmarcimport discarded those fields
18:00 kados   it doesn't strictly affect any performance ...
18:01 kados   it just means that NPL won't ever have script MARC-compliant records
18:01 kados   unless we can come up with a clever way to intuit that info from the data
18:02 shedges ...or just goes to all XML and let's MARC die...
18:03 kados   yep
18:03 kados   that would be truly innovative
18:04 shedges it would certainly make life in the Web much easier!
18:06 kados   I think for that we'll have to wait until 3.0's finished and we've got the new holdings forest in place
18:06 kados   then we can start working on some kind of XML-based profile for library records
18:27 kados   yay logbot
22:03 thd     kados: I see that you committed the code to opac-MARCdetail.pl to rel_2_2.
22:04 kados   thd: yep
22:04 kados   thd: but it's a syspref
22:04 kados   thd: so we should be safe :-)
22:04 thd     kados: I can commit the corresponding changes for the intranet and also to HEAD.
22:05 kados   already did
22:06 kados   wait ... didin't to head
22:06 thd     kados: That does not cure all about which Steven was commenting.  That is however, where, he was observing that issue.  Other issues that he had were not mere appearance.
22:08 thd     kados: I saw no commit to MARCdetail.pl only to opac-MARCdetail.pl.
22:09 kados   i commited both MARCdetail and opac-MARCdetail in rel_2_2 IIRC
22:09 kados   thd: are those a matter of a better default framework?
22:09 thd     kados: Also paul had cited an additional if clause for MARCdetail.pl that seems not to be present in opac-MARCdetail.pl.
22:10 thd     kados: yes, a better default framework.
22:11 kados   thd: which you're working on right?
22:11 thd     kados: yes
22:12 thd     kados: back to that just after I succeed with updatedatabase
22:12 kados   cool
22:14 kados   thd: do this exactly:
22:14 thd     kados: NPL has an external record store that it can use for recovering 00X and anything else that may need recovering from the SQL void in Koha does it not?
22:14 kados   cd /path/to/koha/cvs/repo
22:14 kados   ie, the 'koha' directory
22:15 kados   export KOHA_CONF=/path/to/koha.conf
22:15 kados   updater/updatedatabase
22:15 kados   then you'll be done :-)
22:15 kados   and you can get to work on frameworks :-)
22:17 thd     kados: I will add that to my grabkoha.sh script that is doing all the repetitious tasks now.
22:17 thd     kados: Dose NPL not have the data preserved for recovering what was lost inside Koha?
22:19 kados   thd: pass
22:19 thd     kados: pass?
22:20 kados   thd: they don't
22:21 thd     kados: was it not your job to look after their data for them? :)
22:21 kados   thd: I tried ... did you see my earlier message to stephen?
22:23 thd     kados: I saw some log from today but I must have missed part of the discussion and logbot was down.
22:23 kados   sorry then :-)
22:27 thd     kados: I have from this point on and seem to have had an uninterrupted connection for much of today..
22:27 thd     shedges kados:  so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags?
22:27 thd     kados shedges: saving scrambled tags?
22:28 kados   thd: in fact, it doesn't matter for NPL at all
22:28 kados   thd: having valid marc would give them zippo ... nadda
22:28 thd     kados: There must have been something before that which was not a public message.
22:28 kados   nope
22:29 thd     kados: Why would invalid MARC help NPL?  :-)
22:29 kados   um ... the point is valid marc would do nothing _for_ them
22:29 kados   I didn't say invalid would help :-)
22:29 kados   just that valid wouldn't help :-)
22:30 kados   in fact, there would be absolutely no advantage for NPL
22:30 thd     kados: You merely mean that Koha ignores that data now?
22:30 kados   no ...
22:30 kados   I mean that even if Koha didn't, it wouldn't matter to them
22:30 kados   they don't have professional catalogers even
22:31 thd     kados: That is not an uncommon problem even where there are simply not enough professional cataloguers.
22:32 kados   there's nothing that valid MARC would give them that they don't already have
22:32 kados   due largely to their current cataloging practices
22:33 thd     kados: After I finish the framework, I will send you the long delayed message about how that can be remedied for every library.
22:33 kados   thd: I may have finished my framework before you finish yours :-)
22:34 thd     kados: Too much work required to finish tonight.
22:34 kados   I got a specification from a potential client
22:34 kados   several actually
22:35 thd     kados: Do you mean the have given you a copy of the SQL already?
22:35 thd     s/the/they/
22:35 kados   thd: of course not ... just the tags/subfields they need to be in certain frameworks and how to fill the fix fields, etc.
22:35 kados   materials designation, etc.
22:36 thd     kados: one default framework will be insufficient for meeting needs.
22:36 kados   of course ...
22:37 kados   that's why they sent me several :-)
22:37 thd     kados: Some plugins need to be written as well but nothing major for minimal compliance.
22:38 kados   yep, and I've already written one of those :-)
22:41 thd     kados: I am specifying minimal requirements for all subfields.  After that is done and carefully checked we can discuss what other standard frameworks should be created.  I am carefully noting the salient differences for national framework which would be a modest modification.
22:42 kados   thd: I'm starting to think we're going to need several frameworks
22:42 kados   a general one where the user is prompted to enter values for all relevant fields
22:42 kados   then one for each materials designation
22:42 kados   minimally:
22:42 kados   Book (monograph)
22:42 kados   Computer File
22:42 thd     kados: There should be a national level one just to prove that Koha can be used for national level cataloguing.
22:43 kados   Video (film, filmstrip, transparency)
22:43 kados   Picture, study Print, Photograph, Chart
22:43 kados   Kit (Book and nonmusical Casette)
22:43 kados   Manuscript Lanuage Material
22:43 kados   Maps Globes and Atlases
22:43 kados   Mixed Material
22:43 kados   Music (Printed)
22:43 thd     kados: UNIMARC Koha has those, however, they are full of mistakes and the libraries that paul has do not care.
22:43 kados   Three dimensional Artifact, Object
22:44 kados   Sound Recordings (nonmusical)
22:44 kados   Serial (Printed Periodical, etc.)
22:44 kados   Sound Recording(Musical)
22:44 kados   phew :-)
22:45 kados   thd: do you know where I can find out what the leader should be for each of those materials?
22:45 thd     kados: UNIMARC Koha only has some of that more complete list.  They have no realia framework for cataloguing cannonballs and paintings.
22:46 thd     kados: That same table for 000/06-07
22:51 thd     kados: I had given you the related 008 table before but see the table at the bottom of http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0021.htm
22:51 kados   shit ... I don't want to have to decode that :-)
22:52 kados   i need a valid string for 'BOOK(MONOGRAPH)' :-)
22:52 thd     kados: That is easy, I have the Perl code already.
22:52 kados   yea?
22:53 kados   for now could you just tell me what the value should be for a book?
22:53 kados   '00428nam 2200145u' 4500 look right to you?
22:53 kados   oops ...
22:53 thd     kados: yes, I started it months ago for a message to koha-devel until too many additional fields were involved for a simple message.
22:54 kados   '00428nam 2200145u 4500'
22:55 thd     kados: where did n come from?
22:55 kados   no offense, but you've got to just send those messages even if they are not 100% complete
22:56 kados   I got that from one of my client's catalogs
22:56 kados   Code n (Special instructional material) is obsolete. Defined 1975-1983; use code k (Two-dimensional nonprojectable graphic) and code r (Three-dimensional artifacts and naturally occurring objects).
22:57 thd     kados: I did send the message I just did not attach incomplete code to it to prove an obvious point.
22:57 kados   how's this:
22:57 kados   '00994pam 2200301 a 4500'
23:00 kados   thd: did you write the 'marc21leader.pl'?
23:00 kados   thd: the plugin?
23:01 thd     kados: paul wrote that,  I suggested good default values for the most likely use in Koha.
23:03 thd     kados: your last example is the monograph component part of a mixed material.
23:03 kados   can you tell me what the correct code for a simple Book (Monograph) should be?
23:04 thd     kados: your previous example is the monograph component part of a nonstandard (not in the MARC standard) record type.
23:05 thd     kados: maybe the first part is a typo.
23:06 thd     kados: plugins may not cure typos but can certainly reduce them and at least leave you with a valid record of some sort.
23:08 kados   hmmm ... I added a 000 to my 'Book' Framewokr
23:08 kados   but it still doesn't show up when I try to edit a MARC record
23:09 kados   do I need to add it as @000 ?
23:09 thd     kados: 000/06 is not defined for 'n'.  There is a remote possibility that it is an historical usage which should have been converted long ago.
23:11 thd     kados: you need to add it to your '@' subfield for 000 in the bibliographic framework editor.
23:11 kados   not enough characters to fit it :(
23:11 kados   the template is preventing it :-)
23:12 thd     kados: What do you mean?  Not enough characters to fit what?
23:13 thd     s/what/what where/
23:16 kados   I mean that I can't enter in more than 3 chars in the 'tag' input box
23:17 thd     kados: you mean the add field box?
23:18 thd     sorry retract last post
23:18 kados   found the prob
23:18 kados   have to commit it to cvs tonight
23:19 thd     kados: It is working on my rel_2_2 system so it must already be in CVS.
23:19 kados   so when I add it as @000
23:19 kados   it doesn't show up :-)
23:20 thd     kados: Add field 000.
23:20 kados   er?
23:20 kados   I thought you said to do it as @000
23:20 thd     kados: create subfield '@'
23:20 kados   ahh
23:21 kados   I'm a dumbass :-)
23:21 thd     kados: actually if you leave the subfiled name blank the default templates will create it as '@'.
23:21 kados   ahh
23:21 kados   doesn't on mine
23:22 thd     kados: try the default template.
23:22 thd     kados: default only for intranet in MARC.
23:23 kados   shit ... npl template doesn't even save the @ subfield
23:23 kados   wtf
23:25 thd     kados: The default templates are now only non-MARC in the OPAC for some mistake that happened during 2.2.4.
23:25 kados   doesn't work in default either
23:26 thd     kados: Some translations are tied to the default OPAC templates so there is now a problem for users of those languages.
23:26 thd     If hey are using MARC Koha.
23:26 thd     s/hey/they/
23:27 kados   no, I'm not even able to add a @ subfield in the 000 tag
23:27 kados   it won't 'stick'
23:27 thd     kados: update to the latest rel_2_2 in CVS.  I only had 2.2.5 for a couple of days.
23:28 thd     kados: I run a single script to update everything now.
23:28 kados   it _is_ latest cvs
23:29 thd     kados: Is there some legacy problem in your bibliographic framework table?
23:30 kados   could be
23:30 kados   that's the thing about updatedatabase
23:31 kados   it doesn't update if the table exists :(
23:31 kados   well ... table and column that is
23:31 kados   ok ... I'll delete the framework table and run updatedatabase
23:31 thd     kados: owen told me that no one would touch the frameworks at NPL because of some problem from versions ago would give permanent headaches that no one else had ever been able to reproduce.
23:32 thd     kados: That problem with updatedatabase should be cured.
23:33 thd     kados: You must be able to add columns to an existing table or nothing would hardly ever update without being dropped first.
23:35 kados   actually, I'm not even sure which table the framework stuff is in
23:38 kados   ok ... deleted biblio_framework and readded it with updatedatabase
23:39 kados   ok that must not be it
23:41 kados   I'm guessing it's probably marc_subfield_structure and marc_tag_structure
23:41 kados   maybe even others
23:41 kados   this sucks
23:42 thd     kados: careful not to delete the wrong table :)
23:44 kados   I may have :-)
23:44 kados   yea, looks like it's toast :-)
23:45 kados   totally
23:45 kados   shit
23:49 thd     kados: you built everything from an SQL dump right?
23:55 kados   yea, restoring now
00:16 kados   I decided to completely start over with a fresh install
00:16 kados   to grab the frameworks stuff
00:19 kados   now updatedatabase has run
00:37 kados   thd: do you know this syspref:
00:37 kados   itemcallnumber  676a  The MARC field/subfield that is used to calculate the itemcallnumber (in UNIMARC
00:37 kados   it cuts off
00:40 thd     kados: That preference is supposed to aid in filling an item call number from a standard location.
00:40 kados   does it apply to usmarc/marc21 too?
00:40 thd     kados: It is not UNIMARC dependent but I could never get it to work
00:40 kados   thd: also, even now, my marc structure doesn't display a 000 tag
00:40 kados   thd: or does the new default still not have it?
00:41 thd     kados: Default is very poor and is missing much.
00:43 thd     kados: Inaccurate repeatability was added to the original work but nothing more.
00:45 kados   ARRRG
00:45 thd     kados: The librarian who helped paul originally prepare the specifications for the frameworks did not have the compulsion for validity that people may loose their data if this is incomplete or inaccurate.
00:45 kados   just added 000
00:45 kados   then attempted to addd subfield @
00:45 kados   and it didn't work!
00:45 thd     kados: what template are you using?
00:45 kados   npl
00:45 kados   switching to default now
00:46 kados   thd: using default I get the same thing!
00:47 kados   yea, it's definitely not working!
00:47 kados   this is SO frustrating
00:47 kados   thd: koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?tagfield=000&frameworkcode=BOOK
00:48 kados   give it a shot yourself
00:48 kados   see if you can make it dance
00:51 kados   thd: are you trying it?
01:08 kados   thd: is it possible that the non-default frameworks can't have their own values for LEADER -- only the default can?
01:09 kados   nope :(
01:11 thd     kados: I succeeded
01:11 kados   thd: in what?
01:12 thd     kados: There were no plugins listed though.
01:12 kados   I still dont' see the @ subfield listed
01:12 kados   if you do, please show me where
01:13 thd     kados: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?tagfield=000&frameworkcode=BOOK
01:13 kados   hey!
01:13 kados   what was I missing then?
01:14 kados   Text for librarian i bet
01:14 thd     kados: maybe the templates reject the attempt to add the subfield if you do not provide text for the librarian or OPAC
01:14 kados   shoot ... that was a complete waste of time :/
01:14 kados   thd: I was gonna use a 'Auth value' not a plugin
01:14 kados   thd: because I thought the BOOK framework would only need one value for leader
01:14 kados   thd: am I wrong?
01:15 thd     kados: You cannot use an authorised value for the leader and have an accurate leader.
01:15 kados   why not?
01:16 thd     kados: The leader is supposed to include information about the record size etc. that should be filled automatically.
01:17 thd     kados: I am not certain that paul's plugin calculates the record size when you choose the submit button but it could eventually.
01:18 thd     kados: If I recall correctly, as long as the plugins directory is in the correct place all plugins will be listed.
01:19 thd     kados: The apache user has to be able to read and execute them of course. :)
01:21 kados   they are of course executable by apache
01:21 thd     kados: You should merely alter the leader plugin with other copies set to different correct defaults for different bibliographic media.
01:21 kados   thd: what is in your 'scripts' directory?
01:22 kados   thd: and, from the sound of it, calculate the length of the record :-)
01:24 thd     kados: they are in the value builder directory for CVS.
01:24 kados   I know where they are
01:24 kados   I just don't know why my Koha's not finding them
01:24 kados   are they also in your 'scripts' directory?
01:26 kados   thd: we're back to not having the '000' $@ again now that I switched back to npl templates
01:26 thd     kados: not that I see.
01:27 kados   both the @ and the plugins
01:27 kados   thd: what was the value for 'Text for librarian'?
01:27 thd     kados: I will run the find command
01:28 thd     kados: I used 'control field' in '@' for 000
01:29 kados   wow ... plugin's just magically started working!
01:30 kados   hey, looks like it's even working !
01:30 kados   yay!
01:30 kados   http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl
01:31 kados   well ... kinda
01:31 kados   the values don't really look right to me
01:32 kados   interesting ... you can even specify if there should be links
01:34 thd     kados: koha/intranet/cgi-bin/value_builder
01:34 kados   yea, I have no idea why they were't showing up before
01:35 kados   thd: I didn't realize that you would use a plugin as paul's marc21leader.pl works
01:35 thd     kados: links work now in both MARC view and the default non-MARC detail view
01:35 thd     kados: what else would you use?
01:36 kados   thd: it looks like perhaps it is meant to cover all possible cases
01:36 kados   thd: would you simply specify defaults if you were going to make a marc21.books.leader.pl?
01:36 kados   or would you change the actual way the script works?
01:37 thd     kados: I would mak a copy of the script and change the defaults
01:37 kados   what should the values be for the types I listed above ... do you know off hand?
01:42 thd     kados: Book (monograph) 000/06 a 000/07 m
01:43 kados   thd: I don't know what that means
01:44 thd     kados: Computer File: 000/06 m, 000/07 whatever applies
01:45 thd     kados: leader positions six and seven
01:46 kados   thd: are those the only two that need to be changed?
01:46 thd     kados: those are the only two that set material type in the leader
01:47 thd     kados: their are other fields that need plugins, well all of them do. :)
01:47 thd     s/their/there/
01:48 kados   yea, but lets focus on the leader first
01:48 thd     kados: 008 is a required field and has much to do with material type
01:48 thd     kados: leader only for now
01:48 kados   thanks :-)
01:49 kados   looking over this template, I can't figure out how to get it to default to a specific value
01:49 thd     kados: Video (film, filmstrip, transparency) 000/06 g, 000/07 whatever applies
01:50 kados   nevermind
01:50 kados   I see how
01:51 thd     kados: It is very simple with just the leader
01:53 thd     kados: book is tricky by requiring both 000/06 and 000/07
01:55 thd     kados: proper material typing is complex because it involves several fields including ones that cannot be relied upon being present in a found record and many cataloguers have no time to create in an original record.
01:55 kados   hang on
01:55 kados   I still can't figure out how to make it default to the values we want
01:55 kados   the leader that is
01:56 kados   do you know?
01:56 thd     s/fields/fields, fixed field positions, and subfields/
01:57 thd     kados: I have not tried changing the default yet.
01:57 thd     kados: It may use JavaScript along with Perl.
01:59 thd     kados: there must be something different about the current defaults or there reference :)
01:59 thd     s/there/their/
02:00 kados   I get it now
02:00 kados   ok ... we're in business
02:05 thd     yes line 82 	$result = "     nam         7a      " unless $result;
02:05 kados   thd: can you check to see if you like what you see?
02:05 kados   http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl
02:05 kados   I think what we should do ... if you have time ...
02:06 kados   is to go through the other fields up to 008
02:06 kados   plus the materials designations (if you know what those should be)
02:06 kados   and try to pick values for them that would apply for BOOK (MONOGRAPH)
02:06 kados   or write plugins for them if the values are shifty
02:06 kados   thd: are you up for it?
02:07 thd     kados: I am well rested and have a new indestructible filling
02:07 kados   heh
02:08 thd     mostly indestructible but real tooth enamel is better
02:08 kados   shoot ... not sure it's working right
02:09 thd     kados: I grew up where fluoridated water was thought to be a communist plot.
02:09 kados   arrrg
02:09 kados   for the marc21_computerfile.pl I changed it to:
02:10 kados    $result = "     nmm         7a      " unless $result;
02:10 kados   but still doesn't work :(
02:10 thd     Although I never had a cavity until I had been living a few years in New York.
02:11 thd     kados: The existing default is right for books already as the most common thing to be catalogued.
02:11 thd     kados: what is the problem?
02:12 thd     kados: I think that is an illegal value
02:12 kados   thd: did you visit the above link?
02:12 kados   thd: and try to catalog a new Computer File
02:12 kados   using the COMPUTER FILE framework?
02:12 kados   it doesn't fill 000/07 with 'm'
02:13 kados   like it should
02:13 kados   well ... 000/06 I mean
02:14 kados   I bet the problem is this:
02:14 kados   defaultvalue=document.forms[0].field_value[i].value;
02:15 kados   where the heck is that stored?
02:17 kados   document.forms[0] is the first form in the document
02:17 thd     kados: perhaps there is even more to change for the default
02:18 kados   field_value[i] is a variable for the value of the field within that form ... each one of them has a value
02:21 thd     kados: there is a reference to unimarc field 100 in line 56
02:24 kados   well ... we'll have to ask paul tomorrow
02:24 kados   I can't figure it out
02:25 kados   thd: lets move from the leader
02:25 kados   thd: what's next in terms of importance ... 008?
02:25 thd     kados: 001 is mandatory
02:25 kados   ok ... so 001 then
02:25 kados   it shouhhld be linked to biblionumber for now, right?
02:26 kados   biblio.biblionumber ... right?
02:26 thd     kados: 001 should be filled automatically from biblionumber yes
02:26 kados   thd: what's the label?
02:27 thd     kados: what label do you mean?
02:27 kados   thd: what should I call it ?
02:27 thd     kados: you mean subfield '@'?
02:27 kados   Control Number
02:28 kados   no, I meant 001 itself
02:28 thd     CONTROL NUMBER
02:29 kados   it's not repeatable
02:29 kados   it has one subfield ... @ right
02:30 thd     kados: all '@' subfields are non-repeatable
02:30 kados   ok ... what's next?
02:30 kados   ahh
02:30 thd     kados: the fields may be repeatable but not in this case
02:30 kados   right
02:30 kados   what's next ... 002? :-)
02:30 kados   I'm guessing 003
02:30 kados   Control Number Identifier
02:31 thd     kados: a plugin should move any old 001 value to 035
02:31 thd     kados: there is no 002
02:31 kados   the 003 can have an authorized value
02:32 kados   so I'll set that up quickly
02:32 kados   with LibLime's code
02:33 thd     kados: that should be the branch doing the cataloguing read from wherever the cataloguing user information is located.
02:33 kados   what's next?
02:34 kados   005?
02:34 thd     kados: That is supposed to be an authorised code assigned by LC for the institution
02:34 kados   yep, we have one
02:34 kados   LibLIme that is
02:34 kados   OLvl I think
02:34 kados   I can look it up later ... lets move on
02:34 kados   005?  Date and Time of Latest Transaction
02:34 kados   should be filled with today's date right?
02:35 kados   or last time's date?
02:35 thd     kados: an existing 003 from a copy catalogued record should be moved to whatever field I said it should in my email from months ago
02:35 kados   thd: I routinely do this for my clients
02:36 kados   thd: when I bulk-import records
02:36 kados   but we need a plugin that can handle an existing value
02:36 kados   and put it in the right field right?
02:36 thd     that would be the one I finally sent when I had finished the default framework this past weekend :)
02:36 kados   right
02:37 kados   I have a plugin script that can be changed to do this
02:37 kados   should be fairly easy
02:37 kados   thd: so ... 005 ... todays' date?
02:37 thd     005 has to be regenerated every time a record edit is submitted.
02:37 kados   ok ... got a plugin for tha talready
02:38 thd     kados: date and time in the required format
02:38 kados   thd: which is what?
02:38 thd     kados: mostly ISO
02:39 kados   2006-12-30 then?
02:39 thd     The date requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern yyyymmdd. The time requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern hhmmss.f, expressed in terms of the 24-hour (00-23) clock.
02:40 thd     there is a dot in between the date and the time
02:41 thd     retract the dot is where the above sentence says
02:41 kados   thd: should this be linked to a koha field?
02:42 kados   biblioitems.timestamp maybe?
02:42 kados   depending on how that's used
02:42 thd     kados: maybe but no koha field stores the value in the exact required format unless I am mistaken
02:42 kados   I'll go with it for now then I'll check to make sure I'm right later
02:43 kados   k ... what's next?
02:43 kados   006 I'm guessing
02:43 thd     fractional second appear after the dot but could be fractional seconds '0'
02:44 kados   thd: yep, I've got it noted ... for now it's just 2006-12-30
02:44 kados   thd: but I'll definitely add that functionality as it's quite easy
02:44 kados   thd: but I'm just eager to get a working framework in place
02:44 kados   because I've got a webex demo on Thur :-)
02:44 thd     kados: updates also affect a leader value
02:44 kados   updates to what?
02:44 kados   005?
02:45 thd     kados: record updates
02:45 kados   right
02:45 kados   I know that already
02:45 kados   we already support that
02:45 kados   I don't see any need to create a separate framework for each material JUST for updates
02:45 kados   lets move to 005
02:45 kados   sorry ... 006
02:45 kados   this looks a lot like the leader
02:46 kados   in terms of what it's supposed to do
02:46 kados   well ... look like
02:46 kados   leader has 24 char positions
02:46 kados   006 has 17
02:46 kados   no sweat
02:46 thd     kados: 006 s for additional material and is not needed unless you have a complex type of material to catalogue composed of multiple parts
02:47 kados   so what's our default value supposed to be?
02:47 thd     kados: That could of course be something as simple as a CD with a booklet insert though.
02:47 kados   I guess I'll need to wait on that one since I still dont know how to adjust those leader scripts
02:47 kados   I forgot
02:47 kados   I'll ask paul about it tomorrow
02:48 kados   but in the meatime, what shoudl the values be for a BOOK or for DEFAULT?
02:48 kados   (so that I can fill them when i find out from paul tomorrow how to do so)
02:48 kados   thd: do you know?
02:48 thd     kados: 006 is not needed in most cases but would be for some types of material
02:48 kados   ok ... should we move on then>?
02:49 thd     kados: yes
02:49 kados   007 Physical Description Fixed Field
02:50 thd     kados: 007 is not mandatory but is very nice for someone like me who wants to do a lot of work to make good cataloguing easy.
02:50 kados   right
02:50 kados   so should it be an authorized value?
02:50 thd     kados: it needs a complex plugin
02:51 thd     kados: it is like the leader only more complex
02:51 kados   right I see that
02:51 kados   ok ... 008 then
02:51 kados   same deal there
02:51 thd     kados: 008 is similar but mandatory
02:51 kados   ok ... so I need to ask paul tomorrow morning about how to handle these
02:51 kados   i just can't figure out how the plugin works in this case
02:52 kados   thd: what's next?
02:52 thd     kados: If we can understand how his plugins work it should merely be work to build more complex ones.
02:52 kados   yep, shouldn't be too hard
02:53 thd     kados: That is all the control fields
02:53 kados   sweet ... not really that bad after all :-)
02:54 thd     kados: other fields are mandatory and could use much support but 000-008 are the most difficult for humans
02:55 kados   strange ...
02:55 kados   003 has stopped showing up
02:55 kados   ahh ... I bet I know why
02:56 kados   thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl?oldbiblionumber=&frameworkcode=Default
02:56 kados   thd: it's a start anyway
02:56 kados   thd: thanks for your help
02:56 thd     kados: paul's code may do nothing for record size etc. in the leader but he may envision treating that outside the editor.
02:57 kados   yea ... I think MARC::Record already handles that actually
02:58 thd     kados: it should not require pressing a JavaScript link to fill an initial default value.
02:59 thd     kados: There should be some way of auto activating default values for plugins if the field is empty.
03:00 kados   there is such a way
03:01 thd     kados: also the three dots are difficult to spot.  There should be something more visible that signifies the function.
03:01 kados   yep
03:02 thd     kados: cataloguers can always be informed but there is a related function in the OPAC that must be missed by most users
03:03 thd     kados: About the best feature of Koha is almost hidden.
03:04 thd     kados: It should be shouted as a great advancement in user interfaces for library applications.
03:04 kados   yep
03:09 kados   thd: before you go
03:09 kados   thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl
03:10 kados   check out the functionality of the 005
03:10 kados   don't click on the ...
03:10 kados   just put your cursor in the field
03:10 kados   today's date should appear :-)
03:10 thd     kados: I just thought of a cheap way to separate the OPAC MARC view from the fields specified for the cataloguer to use by default.
03:14 thd     kados: the old value should appear until the record is submitted but a new value should not require any user action other than submitting the record.
03:15 thd     above sentence for 005
03:15 kados   ok ... I've got to get to bed
03:15 thd     kados: of curse you need the right date time format still but you understood that.
03:16 kados   or else I'll miss paul ... won't get up in time :-)
03:16 thd     like me unless I stay up and then miss you
03:17 kados   heh
03:32 thd     kados: I had forgotten something important that confused me about your leader examples.
03:33 thd     kados: position numbering starts with 00 so that 06 is in the seventh position.
05:31 osmoze  hello