Time Nick Message 10:59 thd paul: I would not be first. Maybe I would have the first free to use service considering that Amazon for example would never do the necessary work on their own and the nonfree services collect subscription fees. 10:55 thd paul: However, patents and software should never mix. 10:55 thd paul: US courts have only recently allowed the patenting of what they had previously held to be mere ideas. 10:53 thd paul: The only protection for ideas should be trade secret laws not copyright. Ideas should be everyone's as soon as they are disclosed. 10:51 thd paul: The idea is free. You have it already in general. Only very precise implementations should be subject to copyright. 10:48 thd paul: My basic model for exploiting it was to offer free web services. If Amazon were offering those identical services without even acknowledging my contribution then I fear that I would not have enough of a market left for me. This is possible with web services under GPL version 2. My trumpet is very much smaller than Amazon's for anything that I did where they might directly use my code. 10:45 paul earning money just because I was the 1st to have an idea is something un-accessible to me, sorry 10:44 paul (& I still don't understand why it can be possible to @ an idea. I think i'll never understand...) 10:43 paul my opinion is that such a work should not be copyrighted, so I can't help you on this. But you also can put a GPL licence on it : use, modify freely, but keep it free. 10:42 thd paul: I am always willing to hear any ideas about how I might share my own classification browsing code without having Amazon or TLC for example putting it on their server and taking most all of the potential commercial value without any return for what I had developed or even getting modifications back. 10:33 thd paul: Well LC CDS seems to have removed the username and password for the test files. 10:26 thd paul: $4,360 for the backfile and $4,360 annually to maintain a subscription. 10:24 thd http://www.loc.gov/cds/mds.html#lccr 10:23 thd paul: But I had stopped working on that problem over a year ago when my foot swelled very painfully to double size. 10:21 thd paul: There are free test records from LC including a special set of classification records that they prepared for me. 10:20 thd paul: LC CDC service uses some cost recovery formula to come up with the rather high prices for databases of MARC records by FTP. 10:17 thd paul: Also no commercial service that redistributes LC MARC records at reasonable prices has had enough customer interest in MARC classification records to justify offering them. 10:15 thd paul: Because that is recent I have not been able to identify any library where the complete set of LCC MARC records are held for the possibility of copying them. 10:12 thd paul: Since 2001 the full schedules have been available in the MARC 21 classification format. 10:11 thd paul: Unfortunately, LCC had historically been a paper only set of schedules. 10:09 thd paul: However, the construction of the DDC and coding around it is simple by comparison. 10:09 paul can the complete LCC be downloaded somewhere ? 10:08 thd paul: Library of Congress Classification. 10:08 thd paul: LCC 10:07 thd paul: Decimalised classification is merely an idea but a particular fully specified scheme can be copyrighted. 10:07 paul (except the 3digits dewey you pointed) 10:06 paul and is there a classification under public domain 10:06 thd paul: Of course it is stupid but my work has concentrated on the public domain or copyright held in trust by the US government for all the people with LCC. 10:05 paul and dcc is nothing more than an idea ! 10:05 paul my opinion is that it's stupid to copyright an idea. 10:04 thd paul: As soon as the meaning of the number is given you start to cross over into the area where OCLC asserts its copyright for DDC. 10:03 paul s/skope/spoke/ 10:03 paul that's the "see nearest" feature we skope with joshua 10:02 thd paul: In classification browsing the user does not see the hierarchy but follows the endless sequence of all call numbers sorted by call number. 10:01 paul yes, but the user has to know what a number means ! 10:00 thd paul: Search for a complete or truncated call number or follow a call number link in the retrieved set of another search.. 10:00 paul can the user go up and down in the hierarchy ? 09:59 thd paul: call number browsing starts from a search rather than a classification hierarchy. 09:58 paul yes. (and where it differs from what we plan) 09:57 thd paul: Are you asking for a description of call number browsing? 09:56 thd paul: Koha has that somewhat already. 09:56 paul could you describe it ? 09:55 thd paul: Many ILS systems have call number browsing without a hierarchy to which OCLC has no objection that I know. 09:54 thd paul: BNF does have classification browsing in a good and very useful sense, although it could be much better. 09:53 thd paul: Well, other ILS systems do not have what could be done very nicely that I had hoped hdl was proposing to implement. 09:50 thd paul: I am merely asserting that, given the litigiousness of OCLC, they might choose to act against Koha and Katipo at least as well. 09:50 paul (only the 3 first digits I mean) 09:50 paul (on a 3 digits basis often) 09:50 paul and in France 90% of libraries uses dewey 09:49 paul (as every ils can store dewey number) 09:49 paul yes, but that's already the case with every ILS isn't it ? 09:49 thd paul: I understand that your idea would merely enable a library to do something to which OCLC might object. 09:49 hdl But I think that to avoid any problem, we (Koha team) could get in touch with OCLC and ask for a license... Or right to use. 09:47 thd paul: The hotel settled and paid something modest to OCLC then made some changes in their marketing. 09:46 paul and iirc, they won ! 09:46 paul I know. 09:46 paul (as I hope a classification based on a number of digits is not @ i hope !!!) 09:46 thd hdl: They actually brought a case to court against a hotel in New York for using a quasi DDC theme that was not even DDC. 09:45 paul thus, it works with any classification, and we don't have to deal with copyright 09:45 paul it's the library that fills the "meaning" of each code. 09:45 paul thd : in my idea, Koha just deals with the number. whatever the meaning. 09:44 thd hdl: However, OCLC is very litigious and not at all nice even if they do have nice people who work for them. 09:43 hdl Manythx. 09:42 thd hdl: There may be ways to get avoid hazards of copyright as in your suggested possibility of excluding the numbers (maybe with changing the official matching names also). 09:39 thd hdl: From the point of view of OCLC trustees, public use of the DDC is seen as a threat to wholesale copying as an alternative to some libraries obtaining a license at all. They actually claim that this was a real problem before they adopted their rather draconian attitude. 09:36 thd hdl: As long as the copy is from 1923 or earlier now under the current Berne convention you should be safe. 09:34 thd hdl: The whole UDC can be licensed. The LCC is in the public domain but funtions very differently and requires use of adding number tables throughout to a much greater degree than the DDC or UDC. 09:34 hdl Using DDC as proposed in your link would be using public domain DDC ? 09:32 hdl ok. 09:30 thd hdl: OCLC objects to public services representing the whole DDC you could perhaps have something for librarian's that used the numbers past the decimal point if it was not in the OPAC. Maybe OCLC would object to that as well though. 09:28 hdl Yes. 09:27 thd hdl: Actually, just to be clear, numbers past the decimal point in DDC , not that they can be offered in a public browsing service, sometimes involve tables. Therefore their meaning is not as straightforward as at least the first three numbers are. 09:24 thd hdl: Representing the whole current DDC is something that OCLC reserves to itself as a part of a cataloguing service. 09:21 thd There is at least one later edition in the public domain. 09:21 thd http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12513/12513-h/12513-h.htm 09:20 hdl Not to throw it to Trash, but to understand and keep in mind what is Legal and what is not. 09:19 hdl In France, the french governement wants to vote a thing that would oblige softwares to use DRM.... Working with opensource softwares leads to be quite sensitive to copyrights and law matters. 09:17 hdl Nowadays, we know that laws and copyrights HAVE to be abided by. 09:16 hdl Wa are not THAT touchy. although we are frenchy ;)))) 09:16 hdl No. For sure. 09:16 thd when I had no reply 09:15 thd hdl: I thought that you had taken grave offence at my concern over protected my code. 09:15 hdl thd : just precise a little more what you understand with public domain approach. 09:14 thd hdl: They refuse to license use of anything beyond the decimal point for a hierarchal classification browser as opposed to a shelf listing. 09:14 hdl ) 09:14 hdl (paul and I were at lunch. 13pm in france. 09:13 hdl Could you be more precise ? 09:12 thd hdl: I would suggest a public domain approach in relation to the original form of the DDC. 09:12 hdl kados there ? 09:11 thd hdl: The price is based on the institution size and membership arrangements and is not really expensive as I recall.. 09:11 hdl Maybe with hiding the figure and displaying only classification labels, that would go. 09:10 thd hdl: Obviously there is no problem with custom classifications. 09:10 hdl Do you have an idea of the License cost ? 09:09 hdl Maybe we should get in touch with OCLC. 09:09 thd hdl: OCLC requires a license to use the current form of the first three DDC levels. That is the levels up to the decimal point. 09:09 hdl thd: the fact is that we donot want to make only DCC but also allow people to customize their classification. 09:07 thd hdl: If you are lucky, OCLC might only threaten the offending library and Katipo, but maybe not you; if a library used Koha to represent the DDC in some manner of which OCLC disapproved. 09:05 hdl paul settled a french ownership on Koha Trademark. 09:05 hdl Yes. 09:04 thd hdl: Is it not Katipo that has the assignment? 09:03 thd ? 09:03 thd hdl: Who holds the copyrights for Koha code. 09:02 hdl thd ! back 08:45 thd paul hdl: ping 08:38 thd paul hdl: are you still there? 08:36 thd paul hdl: Who holds the copyrights for Koha code? 08:33 thd ? 08:33 thd paul: Are all Koha copyrights assigned back to Katipo. 08:31 thd OCLC owns the DDC and the file real lawsuits in real courts over seemingly frivolous claims which require a real defence that cost real money if you intend to defend them. 08:29 thd http://lists.webjunction.org/wjlists/web4lib/2000-December/034527.html 08:28 thd hdl: There is a legal problem with using the DDC. 08:27 thd paul hdl: I would still be happy to share some of my understanding of classification browsing. 08:26 thd paul: Actually, I have not worked on my classification browsing code for over a year and I have worked on other things for Koha. 08:25 thd paul: My business model for classification browsing is web services and not support for individual libraries. 08:24 thd paul: I have no shortage of ideas unrelated to classification browsing that I will happily contribute to Koha at least equal to what has been done so far. 08:22 thd paul hdl: I would freely share everything else I have but that until or unless GPL 3 corrects the web services loophole. 08:22 paul if chris, joshua or me had had the same fear, Koha would not be what it is nowadays ! 08:20 thd paul hdl: The problem I have with sharing my code for classification browsing or even showing the user interface just yet is that I fear losing the possible business from it to a closed source company with much much better ability to advertise than I have myself. 08:17 thd paul hdl: sorry, too much cutting and pasting between xterms causes problems for me eventually. 08:03 thd paul hdl one moment. I may need to restart my Xserver. 08:01 paul why do you want to guard your code thomas ? 07:59 thd hdl: The appropriation of my code as someone else's close web service is what I guard that python code against.. 07:58 thd hdl: I have not mingled that code with Koha although GPL version 2 would allow it as a web service. 07:57 thd hdl: If GPL version 3 fixes the right problems I would release that code. 07:57 hdl thd: Code used with koha ? 07:56 thd hdl: Your proposed classification browsing feature is a very good idea. I have code written in Python that was written for that problem domain. 07:52 |hdl| thd back. 07:37 paul |hdl| : une petite envie d'aller au Maroc ??? 07:25 thd |hdl| let me know when you are off phone. I have some legal caution for your classification hierarchy feature. 07:23 |hdl| phoning 07:23 |hdl| yes 07:23 thd |hdl| are you logged in or your ghost? 07:21 thd good morning paul 07:11 paul (but very tricky) 07:11 paul that should not be to hard to fix for me 07:10 paul sorry. 07:10 Sylvain I was hoping another answer ;) 07:10 paul (still have to answer infos mailing list on this) 07:10 paul sylvain : nope, ENSMP is right 06:45 Sylvain Little request from ENSMP, in normal view, it is shown if an item is on loan but in marc it isn't shown, has something been developped to change that ? 06:33 Sylvain :) 06:33 hdl hi alone 06:22 Sylvain hi all 01:59 rach well and of course rosalie being sworn in as a JP (Justice of the Peace) 01:59 rach For ayone who wants to see "bump" progress - http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/jp/IMG_0109 00:02 thd + 20:34 thd kados: are you still on phone? 19:59 thd kados: beep when off phone 19:59 kados on phone 19:59 thd kados: are you present now that NZ has returned? 18:10 rach will be russ 18:04 kados (not sure who's doing that these days) 18:03 kados when you get a chance, update koha.org with new mailing list info 18:03 kados russ: http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1033 18:03 kados chris: http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1033 17:35 kados except for manage, advisors, and testing which I'm proposing we get rid of 17:34 kados I think the lists are all moved 17:34 kados morning 16:09 rach morning 14:50 hdl bye paul 14:46 paul_away bye world 14:46 kados I'll be here all week 14:46 kados ok ... talk to you tomorrow 14:45 paul (if you're there) 14:45 paul we will speak of this tomorrow ;-) 14:45 kados I see 14:45 paul no, the webservice was for catalogue querying 14:45 kados nice 14:45 paul (including catalogue in a CMS through webservice) 14:45 kados for acquisitions? 14:45 paul I have some ideas with webservices... 14:44 paul (just a last word : i've added some webservices for a customer (work on 2.2.4)) 14:44 kados hehe 14:44 paul let's add this to the long long long list of my idea ;-) 14:44 kados I hope I make some sense :-) 14:44 kados ok ... thanks 14:44 paul i'll investigate joshua. 14:44 paul it's almost 7Pm in france, i have to leave. 14:43 kados paul: btw: do you have any ideas for how to do this for Koha 3.0? 14:43 kados if we want subject categories then I suggest we fix koha's ordering problem wtih 600 fields 14:43 kados but classification is a great way to do 'nearby items' 14:42 kados especially not categories that look so much like subject categories 14:42 kados IMO classification is not the best way to do categories 14:40 kados not exactly the same subjects ... but it seems to use the subject terms as a keyword search 14:40 kados link I mean 14:40 kados try the linnk 14:40 kados according to this OPAC :-) 14:40 paul do you mean a "similar item" has the same 6 subjects ? 14:39 kados yep 14:39 paul (in your sample) 14:39 paul subject headings : there are 6 14:39 kados (I think ...) 14:39 kados it uses subject headings to display related items 14:38 kados but also ... note the 'show similar items' button at the bottom of the detail page 14:38 kados you will see a list of items on the same shelf 14:38 kados and click on the 'classification code' 14:38 kados then bring up first record 14:38 kados search for 'neal stephenson' 14:37 kados http://www.library.ohiou.edu/ 14:37 kados let me find an example 14:36 kados then I can click 'see items near this item' 14:36 kados whereas a 'nearby items' feature woudl be good after I have already found a book 14:36 kados what you are describing above would work better with subject headings IMO 14:35 kados ok ... here's my idea 14:35 paul but you idea of seeing nearby items is very good ! 14:35 paul 30 - XXX ... 14:35 paul when the user clic on 3, he get : 14:35 kados I see 14:35 paul (qqq items) 14:35 paul 3- history 14:35 paul (ppppp items) 14:35 paul 2- religion 14:35 paul (nnnn items) 14:34 paul 1- XXXX 14:34 paul "browse the catalogue : 14:34 paul something like : 14:34 paul the new table could be useful because in my idea, we should show the code + the text attached to it. 14:34 kados and we don't replicate our data yet again :-) 14:34 kados they you don't have to worry about a batch 14:34 kados ie, 'items before' and 'items after' 14:34 kados and dynamically build the list of 10 or so 'nearby' items 14:33 kados why not just query Zebra for the data? 14:33 kados here's an idea ... instead of building a new table 14:33 kados hmmm ... 14:32 kados (at least in US libraries) 14:32 kados because classification varies greatly from library to library 14:31 kados it might need to be cusomized by each library ... 14:30 paul maybe drop trailing letters ? or anything after the space ? 14:30 paul note we may have it sometimes, so we have to solve the problem... 14:30 kados paul: at NPL you would have both cases 14:30 paul but if we use dewey code (676 in unimarc) we should not have it 14:29 paul if we use itemcallnumber, then we may have letters (3 first of the author) 14:29 paul + hdl, & kados : 14:29 hdl OK 14:29 paul that's OK to me 14:29 kados (if that's OK) 14:29 kados (I may want to change the name from 'alayahoo' to 'browse shelf' or something) 14:28 kados sorry I missunderstood at first what it was :-) 14:28 hdl paul thanks for your help. 14:28 kados yes ... it sounds exciting 14:24 hdl Are you OK with Opac "alayahoo" feature ? 14:21 hdl ok. 14:19 kados partly ... also because they have chosen local classification schemes that don't really follow any known standard for classification 14:19 hdl :) 14:19 hdl or becaus noone ever came across what real classification was. 14:19 hdl would it be beacuse there were MANY catalogers with MANY experiences and way of mind. 14:18 hdl It surely IS. since it is the case most of the time.... 14:18 kados :-) 14:18 kados oops ... did I say that out loud? 14:18 kados because our catalogers aren't really professionals 14:18 kados to be honest, NPL isn't a great example 14:17 kados sometimes yes 14:17 hdl dewey space Author ? 14:17 kados hdl: "The art of Greek cookery, based on The Grecian gourmet" 14:17 kados hdl: 641.5 SAI 14:17 kados for non-fiction: 14:16 kados hdl: is the callnumber for 'cryptonomicon' as well as all of neal stephenson's other books 14:16 kados hdl: SF Stephenson 14:16 kados hdl: for fiction: 14:15 kados hdl: it depends on the type of the item 14:15 kados and that would be similar but not the same as shelf browsing 14:15 hdl what does itemcallnumber look like ? 14:15 kados though I think some libraries distinguish between 'location' and 'classification' 14:14 kados at least at NPL 14:14 kados I think so 14:14 hdl is that not quite like shelf browsing ? 14:14 hdl you could do it with itemcallnumber. 14:13 kados am I correct? 14:12 kados (I realize location is different from classification ;-)) 14:12 kados 'items near this item' 14:11 kados ahh ... so maybe a 'browse the same shelf' feature 14:11 paul hdl works on navigation on classification. 14:11 paul subfields. 14:10 paul authorities (constructed authorities) : hierarchic through MARC. 14:10 paul classification : hierarchic numeric/alpha, like dewey / CDU ... 14:10 paul mmm... I think we should separate classification and authorities. 14:10 kados and we will have better support for MARC :-) 14:09 kados even without authorities 14:09 kados if we fix it, we will automatically have a very nice complex list of categories with levels built in 14:09 kados hehe 14:09 paul "the koha team agains unemployement : 1000 catalogers hired by Koha libraries !" ;-) 14:08 kados we fix the ordering problem on import 14:08 kados well ... here's my proposal 14:08 paul (dirty hack, your expert MARC editor will be the best solution) 14:08 kados right ... for all 130,000 records :-) 14:08 paul thus you get $a$b$f and you can reorder manually to $b$a$f 14:08 kados (as I believe koha 2.0 used Chris's original subjects code) 14:07 paul right. there is no simple solution to this. Except that in CVS there is a new button in MARC editor to reorder the subfields. 14:07 kados (I believe this only happened with Koha 2.2) 14:07 kados thereby losing the category levels 14:07 kados 600 $aUnited States $bHistory $fOhio 14:07 kados Koha will reorder this : 14:06 kados 600 $bHistory $aUnited States $fOhio 14:05 kados (false example because I'm not a cataloger) 14:05 kados I have a subject that catalogers setup: 14:05 kados so for example 14:05 kados I'm talking about subjects ordering (fields in tag 6XX) when importing into Koha 14:04 paul i speak of the result page you get when you search an authority. 14:04 paul mmm... not sure we speak of the same ordering... 14:03 kados paul: ok ... thanks for that clarification 14:03 paul kados : the ordering of authorities is in CVS 14:03 hdl Our proposition is to base things on a well known classification. or on itemcallnumbers, which are commonly used in our customer library. 14:03 kados hmmm ... but right now, one can't achieve it at all because 600 field order is not preserved (correct me if I am wrong) 14:01 hdl But the fact is that then, one need authorities and subject authorities to acheive this. 14:00 kados then you automatically have the categories right? 14:00 kados and order is preserved when importing 600 fields (which it is now IIRC now) 13:59 kados ie, if you have subject authorities 13:59 kados hmmm ... couldn't the same thing be acomplished by using properly ordered subject (600 fields in MARC21, dunno in UNIMARC)? 13:59 hdl The number of biblios would be regularly updated by a croned task 13:58 hdl and the lib... (don't know the english term) would be the "name of the categories plus [number biblios] 13:57 hdl the value would be the characters 13:56 hdl OPAC3 is for the 3 1st character 13:56 hdl OPAC2*** is for the 2 1st character 13:56 hdl OPAC1 is for the 2 1st character 13:56 hdl Say OPAC1 is for 1st character 13:56 hdl (coming...) then, at first, categories would be divided by the n first characters into an authorised_value list. 13:55 kados so how does a library define 'this dewey number = 'History'' 13:55 kados but dewey is just a number ... not 'History' or 'Religion' right? 13:54 hdl In france, dewey would be 686a 13:54 hdl 100f is an instance, not quite relevant. 13:54 hdl one enter the field 100f 13:53 hdl In a systempreference : opaccategories 13:53 hdl It is based on a MARC field. 13:53 kados how does a library define them? 13:52 kados (only Koha's current MARC support doesn't support the ordering of them ) 13:52 hdl kados : could be but not necessary. 13:52 hdl s/Catholicism/Christianism/ 13:52 kados ? isn't that the same as subject classsifications as defined by LOC? 13:51 hdl Catholicism 13:51 hdl Bouddhism 13:51 hdl French History 13:51 hdl American History 13:51 hdl Second level : 13:51 hdl Science 13:51 hdl Religion 13:50 hdl History 13:50 hdl 1st level : 13:50 hdl That is you can have say ten levels of categories... 13:50 hdl It allows to settle sets of biblios and levels between sets. 13:49 paul mmm... good suggestion, I did not had this idea, but it's a good one ! 13:49 hdl Yes and no. 13:48 kados 'items related to the one I'm looking at' 13:48 paul related items ? 13:48 kados interesting ... so it adds a 'related items' to the OPAC eh? 13:48 paul and it should work with any classification. 13:47 paul kados : categories will be 1 MARC field (choosen in systempreferences). usually it will be dewey, sometimes CDU. 13:44 kados what are the categories? 13:44 kados I mean, how do you pick 'category' 13:40 hdl No it is tied to whatever field you would like, for instance itemcallnumber or dewey or lccn. 13:39 kados is it tied to subject headings? or does it consist of local tags? 13:38 hdl And when clicking on this number, it would display all the biblios. 13:37 hdl It displays number of biblios in relation with this category. 13:37 kados cool 13:36 hdl It consists in a Opac Categories browsing. 13:36 hdl About the OPAC "alayahoo" 13:35 kados hdl: yep 13:34 hdl are you there ? 13:34 hdl kados 13:09 owen Hi paul 13:09 paul hi owen 11:52 _hdl_ (tel) 11:51 kados _hdl_: yahoo features? 11:49 paul explain joshua what you are coding on Head (opac alayahoo...) 11:48 paul joshua, you've got the chance now;-) 11:48 _hdl_ yes 11:48 kados what is it? 11:48 kados no I didn't get a chance 11:48 paul (i mean new features, not bugfixes on 2.2) 11:48 paul did you bug hdl about what he is coding atm ? 11:47 kados to help me finalize the roadmap, etc. 11:47 kados k ... I'm installing a HEAD server today 11:47 paul yep. 11:46 kados paul: can I skip 2.2.2 and go 2.2.0 to 2.2.4 to HEAD? 11:46 paul ??? 11:46 kados paul: what is the upgrade path to HEAD these days 11:32 kados right 11:32 paul and they said and said again they didn't plan to fork. 11:32 kados :-) 11:32 paul i'll take care of this, don't be afraid. 11:32 kados but it's getting there 11:32 kados not completely 11:32 paul yep. is your roadmap for 3.0 finished ? 11:32 kados instead of just 'doing his own thing' 11:32 kados I hope their developer will touch base with us 11:31 kados it's very exciting 11:31 kados yep 11:28 paul did you reach my mail to ineo ? 11:28 kados ok ... good enough 11:28 kados do you have a date set? 11:28 paul christmas gift. or new year gift. 11:27 kados how soon will 2.2.5 be out? 11:27 kados hi there :-) 11:27 paul hi kados 11:27 paul yep, it's 3PM in france ;-) 11:27 kados paul around still?