Time  Nick    Message
10:26 thd     hdl: Why does ENSMP only have Koha for testing and not yet for production?
10:19 thd     hdl: What do you do now about 700 $a and $b when copy cataloguing from BnF?
10:15 thd     hdl: I have a librarian in Illinois who had told me two weeks ago that she was willing to write a grant application for two full time programmers for a year to address these issues in Koha.
10:13 thd     hdl: Yes of course and these issues will certainly be easier for the OPAC in 3.0 but I had assumed they would also be addressed for the authority record at the same time.
10:12 hdl     But It IS interesting to speak with you.
10:11 hdl     Don't you agree ?
10:11 hdl     Then let's fill in the gaps.
10:11 hdl     First, let's have Koha Safe and sound even with some lacks.
10:10 thd     hdl: I realise that but would not most important libraries in France have the same need?
10:09 hdl     but sure, when we speak with you, it is both interesting but not very productive time for our own developpments.
10:08 thd     hdl: Koha will be very difficult to market in the US without addressing these issues.
10:07 hdl     No. :D  had an appointment. and remembered late.;)
10:06 thd     hdl: Have I made him ill?
10:06 hdl     paul away at the doctor.
10:05 thd     paul: comments, or are you still on telephone?
10:04 thd     paul: The issues for subject subdivisions are a little different because subject headings usually have the subfields filled individually from the authorised heading in a subject authority record when cataloguing except when copying the subdivision usage from another bibliographic record as a whole.
09:59 thd     paul: If you copy catalogue from BnF you will at least have 700 $a and $b for most every case unless you concatenate them.
09:56 thd     paul: Should there not be some way to define such behaviour in an authority framework?
09:55 thd     paul: UNIMARC 700 $4 could not be filled from an authority record but I think everything else could in 700.
09:54 thd     paul: So what about the issue of treating groups of subfields with indicators for filling with authorised forms.
09:51 thd     paul: All my memories then are muddled.
09:51 thd     paul: I was feverish at the time with influenza.
09:50 paul    (was the day my last son was baptised)
09:50 paul    2005, april 2
09:50 thd     paul: My reference showed 1920- with no death date and I could not remember when he died.
09:49 thd     hdl: There are certainly some John Pauls in the world where Paul is a surname.  And a previous Pope John Paul.  His given Polish name is not the authorised form in the NACO names database.
09:45 thd     hdl: Another good example just for fun is 100 0#$aJohn Paul$bII,$cPope,$d1920-2004
09:44 thd     hdl: There are actually quite a few Winston Churchills, more than one of which has published books.  Some are direct descendents or also ancestors of the best known Winston Churchill.
09:42 thd     hdl: I do not remember.  Quite possibly.  Knighthoods are common but even still it is from another subfield.
09:41 hdl     I understand your point of view.
09:41 hdl     ok.
09:41 hdl     ;)
09:40 hdl     thd: are the other Winston also Sir ?
09:40 thd     hdl: MARC 21 has no $3 for authority record linking and even in UNIMARC the user searching another system has no meaningful access to $3.
09:38 thd     hdl: There are other Winston Churchill's who are less famous but wrote books.  Without the dates it is impossible to distinguish them from the bibliographic record.
09:37 thd     hdl: consider a MARC 21 example 100 1#$aChurchill, Winston,$cSir,$d1874-1965.
09:35 thd     s/distinguishes/distinguishers/
09:35 thd     hdl: Dates, etc. if present in the authorised form are important distinguishes so the user can use the same full name with dates to search another system for the exact same author.
09:33 thd     hdl: The issue that is important is that multiple subfields work together for the authorised form of the name.
09:32 thd     hdl: This aspect may be minor since would be easy to add a $b with a script.
09:31 thd     hdl: Yes MARC 21 puts the both the forename and surname in $a however UNIMARC does not.
09:31 hdl     ok.
09:30 hdl     thd: that's the spirit, except that you seemed to talk about MARC21 as  putting the forename and the surname in $a ... Or I mix up
09:30 thd     hdl: Then you do not have UNIMARC and your authorised names will not match the BnF authority file at the encoding level.
09:29 hdl     thd: yes, that latest assert
09:29 thd     ?
09:29 thd     hdl: Or do you mean putting the forename and the surname in $a as is the UNIMARC practise.
09:29 hdl     Errr...
09:27 thd     hdl: Do you mean MARC 21 has no linkage to the authority record number as UNIMARC $3 provides?
09:27 hdl     thd: if we follow MARC21 practise in UNIMARC, is this THAT horrible ?
09:26 hdl     thd: Indeed, as you said, MARC21 uses a kind of summary field to display authority derived information, and UNIMARC does it differently.
09:24 thd     hdl: I do not understand this question.  " Is this much troublesome to link with the appropriate authority but fill with only a summary of informations ?"
09:18 thd     hdl: I learnt to care about the fine details of MARC while writing my own copy cataloguing system before Koha existed.
09:17 thd     hdl: I have never worked as a cataloguer in a library only in books businesses where the important cataloguing issues are more usually descriptions of condition after copy cataloguing the rest of the information.
09:15 thd     hdl: Although, I wish I had as much experience programming as I have cataloguing.
09:14 thd     hdl: I am an amateur at everything :)
09:13 thd     hdl: The comma depends on your bibliographic cataloguing rules.  Remember I asked what is the name of the cataloguing rules used in France.
09:11 hdl     thd: you really are a MARC professionnal are you not ?
09:10 thd     hdl: Alexandra is a forename
09:10 hdl     wow smileglasses
09:09 thd     hdl: UNIMARC 700#0 designates $a as a forename
09:09 thd     hdl: UNIMARC 700#1 for designates $a as a surname
09:04 hdl     thd: I don't understand your change in Indicator 700#1 becomes 700#0
09:01 hdl     thd: Is this much troublesome to link with the appropriate authority but fill with only a summary of informations ?
08:58 hdl     thd: comma automatically added after $cEmpress ?
08:47 thd     s/$aSmith$bJohn/$aSmith,$bJohn/g  # I had omitted the comma after Smith
08:41 paul    (on phone, sorry ;-) )
08:41 thd     paul: do you have comment?
08:35 thd     s/frameworks should fill/plugin pop-up should fill/
08:33 thd     paul: frameworks should fill with 700 #0$aAlexandra,$cEmpress,$cConsort of Nicholas II, Emperor of Russia ; note the repeated $c and not merely 700 $aAlexandra
08:31 thd     paul: The frameworks should support treating subfields as groups or whole fields collectively and filling the authorised form as a whole with the standard authorised form from BnF or wherever..
08:28 thd     paul: for the user visually as well as the system in $3
08:27 thd     paul: This allows the direct distinction of $700#1$aSmith$bJohn$f1840-1900 from $700#1$aSmith$bJohn$f1950-
08:24 thd     paul: exactly and the cumulation of all those parts is the authorised form of the name
08:24 paul    (like King Louis XIV)
08:23 paul    + number in $d
08:23 thd     paul: $c
08:23 paul    + birth/death dates in $f
08:23 paul    + title (king, Sir, Lord...) in $dontrememberwhich
08:23 thd     paul: exactly
08:23 paul    john => $b
08:23 paul    smith => $a
08:23 paul    right.
08:22 thd     paul: UNIMARC divides forenames from surnames by different subfields, not merely punctuation.
08:21 thd     paul: Yes there would be an authority number that is true but to an improper authority form.  The equivalent for MARC 21 Koha would be 100#1$aSmith, John.
08:19 paul    except that you also should have a $3 with the authority number
08:19 thd     paul: I find 700##$aSmith, John in UNIMARC Koha just as would expect to see it in MARC 21 Koha
08:17 paul    no, I mean I'm reading you ;-)
08:17 thd     paul: Sorry, do you mean that you are busy reading now?
08:17 thd     paul: Examples I have seen in UNIMARC Koha look like MARC 21
08:15 thd     paul: consider the case of the personal names
06:09 thd     s/field groupings/subfield groupings/
06:03 thd     paul: After lunch I will explain with an example.
06:02 thd     paul: I have noticed that implementations of UNIMARC Koha seem to use personal names in a manner that is a little closer to MARC 21 than UNIMARC.
06:00 thd     paul: consider the case of authorised personal names.
06:00 thd     paul: The frameworks have no provision for designating field groupings for authorised values.
05:59 thd     paul: Yes, I am saying that the help is good but there is a design defect in the help.
05:57 thd     paul: However, there is a problem with the way the frameworks represent authorised values from authority records.
05:56 thd     paul: I prefer the pop-up for authorised values in the expert editor as you have represented it.
05:55 thd     paul: However, I just thought the experts would be typing the authorised forms for authorities expertly without a tool to aid them.
05:53 thd     paul: I think the guided forms with value lists and plugins for everything possible should be ideal for every user ultimately.
05:52 paul    ???
05:51 thd     paul: However, I think a proper implementation of the full guided editor forms tool should be the best for every user including experts.
05:51 paul    why ?
05:50 thd     paul: I had not expected that the authorised value pop-up would have been part of you expert MARC editor implementation.
05:48 paul    thd, i'm back
05:15 thd     ho Sylvain
05:14 Sylvain hi
05:14 Sylvain ho
05:05 thd     paul: It is designed as I expected it to be with an exception which I will explain when you are off phone again.
05:03 thd     paul: I have seen your expert MARC editor diagram.  It looks very nice.
05:03 paul    (unilim)
05:03 paul    (on phone again...)
05:02 paul    i'm here now !
05:02 hdl     s/thiks/thinks/
05:02 paul    58mn on phone...
05:01 thd     paul: are you still on phone?
04:23 thd     paul: I have a question when you are off phone
04:23 paul    (on phone)
04:23 thd     good morning paul
01:42 thd     rach: what about inventory reports?
22:50 rach    thd do you know about inventory reports?
21:01 thd     russ: I have been translating some roadmap content from French.  The babelfish had reduced some posted 3.0 roadmap features to gibberish.
20:57 thd     russ: It is only the list, ordered list, and dictionary tags that need special stylesheet treatment
20:56 russ    gotta go - client is after a report i am writing
20:56 russ    we can sort out how it gets displayed and organised on koha.org later
20:56 russ    the most important thing is getting that content together.
20:55 russ    but I wouldnt worry about that for the moment
20:55 russ    a seperate style sheet for that section may be a problem, may not
20:55 russ    ok well we will just have to see how we get on with that when populating the content into koha.org
20:54 thd     russ: Without such a stylesheet, gazing upon it is uniewably painful :)
20:54 russ    ah right
20:53 thd     russ: I have written a stylesheet for those tags and tested it.
20:51 thd     russ: Even suitably broken down, it needs appropriate stylesheet elements for the ordered list and dictionary list tags for readability.
20:50 thd     russ: In HTML, it requires ordered list and dictionary list tags.
20:48 thd     russ: The organisation is a large indented outline.
20:48 thd     russ: Many important features are broken down into there constituent elements.
20:47 thd     russ: Features are not merely listed in a flat sequence.
20:46 thd     russ: The point where it becomes complex is that is an analytical features list.
20:46 russ    ok cool - that gives me a better idea of what you are trying to do - thanks
20:44 thd     This is meant to show prospective adopters of Koha the full range of hidden features that are not obvious from superficial examination.  It is hoped to guide prospective feature funders and supporters otherwise to know what features may need support to initiate or accelerate development.  Developers are also reminded of what is needed for the roadmap and possible future directions for Koha.
20:43 thd     russ: From my lost and now found paragraph...
20:30 thd     russ, rach: I found the missing paragraph, for when you get back from lunch.  It is good to know that I can save documents while sleepwalking.
20:15 thd     kados: I have some information and a question about adding MARC serials support to Koha
20:15 thd     kados: are you around
20:12 rach    maybe you should do that so you're in sync with each other :-)
20:11 thd     rach: actually I have not had breakfast yet today
20:11 thd     :-)
20:10 rach    :-) you really are on nz time
20:10 thd     russ-lunch: I will explain some other utility after lunch
20:09 thd     russ: The default configuration gives the impression that MARC support is extremely incomplete instead of modestly incomplete in some ways.
20:09 russ    if you could keep us posted on your progress that would be great
20:07 russ    well i dont think poor is the right word, maybe incomplete is a better description
20:07 thd     russ: This is especially true with MARC Koha.
20:07 thd     russ: It is easy to come away with a poor impression of Koha by only seeing what is obvious in the demonstration and a cursory examination of documents.
20:06 russ    yep
20:05 thd     russ: Feature list is good for koha.org
20:05 thd     russ: So there is the feature list purpose to show not just the obvious and superficial but also the features that cannot be seen without close examination.
20:05 russ    that is a mouthful :-)
20:03 thd     russ: Koha Analytical Feature List and Documentation Index with Demonstration and Example Implementation Links is a title that I have attached to the comprehensive draft file.
20:02 thd     russ: As a feature list it is not overly important however I am trying to do other things with it.
20:00 russ    oh well take care, i don't think it is so important that you need to jepordise your sleep
20:00 thd     russ: I have a tendency to work until I cannot stay awake.  That only works for a few days without good rest then productivity falls to almost nothing until the sleep deficit is restored.
19:59 thd     russ: That is the consequence of sleep loss.  Forgetting to save ones work :)  That was not of great importance.
19:57 thd     russ: I was grepping for some descriptive text I had written in a paragraph from yesterday but I may not have save that document.
19:57 russ    any idea how much more you have to do?
19:57 russ    right
19:56 thd     russ: even suitably divided it might need to be trimmed back to serve as a feature list.
19:55 russ    right
19:55 thd     russ: I would have posted something and kept adding to it, however, the design as a large document to be divided has meant that posting it by degrees would be double work for each dividing process.
19:52 thd     russ: It is currently one large document that needs division by module and development level if not more than that to be readable.
19:49 russ    i'd really like to have a look if at all possible
19:43 thd     russ: Yes, but I would be afraid to give the wrong impression from just one whole document.
19:42 russ    have you got anything we can take a look at?
19:41 thd     russ: As I said it is more than just a features list.
19:40 russ    crikey
19:40 thd     russ: yes I have about three weeks work into it so far and practically put myself on  NZ time with sleep loss.
18:28 russ    thd: have you made any more progress with the features section for the website?
18:28 russ    hi thd
18:13 russ    kados: you about?
12:31 Sylvain ciao
12:31 Sylvain bon, j'y vais, si y a un problème, dis le moi
12:19 Sylvain paul je viens de mettre un fix pour le bug #1013 dont je t'avais parler l'autre jour. Si tu peux vérifier que ça ne casse rien et que ça fonctionne aussi chez toi