Time Nick Message 10:26 thd hdl: Why does ENSMP only have Koha for testing and not yet for production? 10:19 thd hdl: What do you do now about 700 $a and $b when copy cataloguing from BnF? 10:15 thd hdl: I have a librarian in Illinois who had told me two weeks ago that she was willing to write a grant application for two full time programmers for a year to address these issues in Koha. 10:13 thd hdl: Yes of course and these issues will certainly be easier for the OPAC in 3.0 but I had assumed they would also be addressed for the authority record at the same time. 10:12 hdl But It IS interesting to speak with you. 10:11 hdl Don't you agree ? 10:11 hdl Then let's fill in the gaps. 10:11 hdl First, let's have Koha Safe and sound even with some lacks. 10:10 thd hdl: I realise that but would not most important libraries in France have the same need? 10:09 hdl but sure, when we speak with you, it is both interesting but not very productive time for our own developpments. 10:08 thd hdl: Koha will be very difficult to market in the US without addressing these issues. 10:07 hdl No. :D had an appointment. and remembered late.;) 10:06 thd hdl: Have I made him ill? 10:06 hdl paul away at the doctor. 10:05 thd paul: comments, or are you still on telephone? 10:04 thd paul: The issues for subject subdivisions are a little different because subject headings usually have the subfields filled individually from the authorised heading in a subject authority record when cataloguing except when copying the subdivision usage from another bibliographic record as a whole. 09:59 thd paul: If you copy catalogue from BnF you will at least have 700 $a and $b for most every case unless you concatenate them. 09:56 thd paul: Should there not be some way to define such behaviour in an authority framework? 09:55 thd paul: UNIMARC 700 $4 could not be filled from an authority record but I think everything else could in 700. 09:54 thd paul: So what about the issue of treating groups of subfields with indicators for filling with authorised forms. 09:51 thd paul: All my memories then are muddled. 09:51 thd paul: I was feverish at the time with influenza. 09:50 paul (was the day my last son was baptised) 09:50 paul 2005, april 2 09:50 thd paul: My reference showed 1920- with no death date and I could not remember when he died. 09:49 thd hdl: There are certainly some John Pauls in the world where Paul is a surname. And a previous Pope John Paul. His given Polish name is not the authorised form in the NACO names database. 09:45 thd hdl: Another good example just for fun is 100 0#$aJohn Paul$bII,$cPope,$d1920-2004 09:44 thd hdl: There are actually quite a few Winston Churchills, more than one of which has published books. Some are direct descendents or also ancestors of the best known Winston Churchill. 09:42 thd hdl: I do not remember. Quite possibly. Knighthoods are common but even still it is from another subfield. 09:41 hdl I understand your point of view. 09:41 hdl ok. 09:41 hdl ;) 09:40 hdl thd: are the other Winston also Sir ? 09:40 thd hdl: MARC 21 has no $3 for authority record linking and even in UNIMARC the user searching another system has no meaningful access to $3. 09:38 thd hdl: There are other Winston Churchill's who are less famous but wrote books. Without the dates it is impossible to distinguish them from the bibliographic record. 09:37 thd hdl: consider a MARC 21 example 100 1#$aChurchill, Winston,$cSir,$d1874-1965. 09:35 thd s/distinguishes/distinguishers/ 09:35 thd hdl: Dates, etc. if present in the authorised form are important distinguishes so the user can use the same full name with dates to search another system for the exact same author. 09:33 thd hdl: The issue that is important is that multiple subfields work together for the authorised form of the name. 09:32 thd hdl: This aspect may be minor since would be easy to add a $b with a script. 09:31 thd hdl: Yes MARC 21 puts the both the forename and surname in $a however UNIMARC does not. 09:31 hdl ok. 09:30 hdl thd: that's the spirit, except that you seemed to talk about MARC21 as putting the forename and the surname in $a ... Or I mix up 09:30 thd hdl: Then you do not have UNIMARC and your authorised names will not match the BnF authority file at the encoding level. 09:29 hdl thd: yes, that latest assert 09:29 thd ? 09:29 thd hdl: Or do you mean putting the forename and the surname in $a as is the UNIMARC practise. 09:29 hdl Errr... 09:27 thd hdl: Do you mean MARC 21 has no linkage to the authority record number as UNIMARC $3 provides? 09:27 hdl thd: if we follow MARC21 practise in UNIMARC, is this THAT horrible ? 09:26 hdl thd: Indeed, as you said, MARC21 uses a kind of summary field to display authority derived information, and UNIMARC does it differently. 09:24 thd hdl: I do not understand this question. " Is this much troublesome to link with the appropriate authority but fill with only a summary of informations ?" 09:18 thd hdl: I learnt to care about the fine details of MARC while writing my own copy cataloguing system before Koha existed. 09:17 thd hdl: I have never worked as a cataloguer in a library only in books businesses where the important cataloguing issues are more usually descriptions of condition after copy cataloguing the rest of the information. 09:15 thd hdl: Although, I wish I had as much experience programming as I have cataloguing. 09:14 thd hdl: I am an amateur at everything :) 09:13 thd hdl: The comma depends on your bibliographic cataloguing rules. Remember I asked what is the name of the cataloguing rules used in France. 09:11 hdl thd: you really are a MARC professionnal are you not ? 09:10 thd hdl: Alexandra is a forename 09:10 hdl wow smileglasses 09:09 thd hdl: UNIMARC 700#0 designates $a as a forename 09:09 thd hdl: UNIMARC 700#1 for designates $a as a surname 09:04 hdl thd: I don't understand your change in Indicator 700#1 becomes 700#0 09:01 hdl thd: Is this much troublesome to link with the appropriate authority but fill with only a summary of informations ? 08:58 hdl thd: comma automatically added after $cEmpress ? 08:47 thd s/$aSmith$bJohn/$aSmith,$bJohn/g # I had omitted the comma after Smith 08:41 paul (on phone, sorry ;-) ) 08:41 thd paul: do you have comment? 08:35 thd s/frameworks should fill/plugin pop-up should fill/ 08:33 thd paul: frameworks should fill with 700 #0$aAlexandra,$cEmpress,$cConsort of Nicholas II, Emperor of Russia ; note the repeated $c and not merely 700 $aAlexandra 08:31 thd paul: The frameworks should support treating subfields as groups or whole fields collectively and filling the authorised form as a whole with the standard authorised form from BnF or wherever.. 08:28 thd paul: for the user visually as well as the system in $3 08:27 thd paul: This allows the direct distinction of $700#1$aSmith$bJohn$f1840-1900 from $700#1$aSmith$bJohn$f1950- 08:24 thd paul: exactly and the cumulation of all those parts is the authorised form of the name 08:24 paul (like King Louis XIV) 08:23 paul + number in $d 08:23 thd paul: $c 08:23 paul + birth/death dates in $f 08:23 paul + title (king, Sir, Lord...) in $dontrememberwhich 08:23 thd paul: exactly 08:23 paul john => $b 08:23 paul smith => $a 08:23 paul right. 08:22 thd paul: UNIMARC divides forenames from surnames by different subfields, not merely punctuation. 08:21 thd paul: Yes there would be an authority number that is true but to an improper authority form. The equivalent for MARC 21 Koha would be 100#1$aSmith, John. 08:19 paul except that you also should have a $3 with the authority number 08:19 thd paul: I find 700##$aSmith, John in UNIMARC Koha just as would expect to see it in MARC 21 Koha 08:17 paul no, I mean I'm reading you ;-) 08:17 thd paul: Sorry, do you mean that you are busy reading now? 08:17 thd paul: Examples I have seen in UNIMARC Koha look like MARC 21 08:15 thd paul: consider the case of the personal names 06:09 thd s/field groupings/subfield groupings/ 06:03 thd paul: After lunch I will explain with an example. 06:02 thd paul: I have noticed that implementations of UNIMARC Koha seem to use personal names in a manner that is a little closer to MARC 21 than UNIMARC. 06:00 thd paul: consider the case of authorised personal names. 06:00 thd paul: The frameworks have no provision for designating field groupings for authorised values. 05:59 thd paul: Yes, I am saying that the help is good but there is a design defect in the help. 05:57 thd paul: However, there is a problem with the way the frameworks represent authorised values from authority records. 05:56 thd paul: I prefer the pop-up for authorised values in the expert editor as you have represented it. 05:55 thd paul: However, I just thought the experts would be typing the authorised forms for authorities expertly without a tool to aid them. 05:53 thd paul: I think the guided forms with value lists and plugins for everything possible should be ideal for every user ultimately. 05:52 paul ??? 05:51 thd paul: However, I think a proper implementation of the full guided editor forms tool should be the best for every user including experts. 05:51 paul why ? 05:50 thd paul: I had not expected that the authorised value pop-up would have been part of you expert MARC editor implementation. 05:48 paul thd, i'm back 05:15 thd ho Sylvain 05:14 Sylvain hi 05:14 Sylvain ho 05:05 thd paul: It is designed as I expected it to be with an exception which I will explain when you are off phone again. 05:03 thd paul: I have seen your expert MARC editor diagram. It looks very nice. 05:03 paul (unilim) 05:03 paul (on phone again...) 05:02 paul i'm here now ! 05:02 hdl s/thiks/thinks/ 05:02 paul 58mn on phone... 05:01 thd paul: are you still on phone? 04:23 thd paul: I have a question when you are off phone 04:23 paul (on phone) 04:23 thd good morning paul 01:42 thd rach: what about inventory reports? 22:50 rach thd do you know about inventory reports? 21:01 thd russ: I have been translating some roadmap content from French. The babelfish had reduced some posted 3.0 roadmap features to gibberish. 20:57 thd russ: It is only the list, ordered list, and dictionary tags that need special stylesheet treatment 20:56 russ gotta go - client is after a report i am writing 20:56 russ we can sort out how it gets displayed and organised on koha.org later 20:56 russ the most important thing is getting that content together. 20:55 russ but I wouldnt worry about that for the moment 20:55 russ a seperate style sheet for that section may be a problem, may not 20:55 russ ok well we will just have to see how we get on with that when populating the content into koha.org 20:54 thd russ: Without such a stylesheet, gazing upon it is uniewably painful :) 20:54 russ ah right 20:53 thd russ: I have written a stylesheet for those tags and tested it. 20:51 thd russ: Even suitably broken down, it needs appropriate stylesheet elements for the ordered list and dictionary list tags for readability. 20:50 thd russ: In HTML, it requires ordered list and dictionary list tags. 20:48 thd russ: The organisation is a large indented outline. 20:48 thd russ: Many important features are broken down into there constituent elements. 20:47 thd russ: Features are not merely listed in a flat sequence. 20:46 thd russ: The point where it becomes complex is that is an analytical features list. 20:46 russ ok cool - that gives me a better idea of what you are trying to do - thanks 20:44 thd This is meant to show prospective adopters of Koha the full range of hidden features that are not obvious from superficial examination. It is hoped to guide prospective feature funders and supporters otherwise to know what features may need support to initiate or accelerate development. Developers are also reminded of what is needed for the roadmap and possible future directions for Koha. 20:43 thd russ: From my lost and now found paragraph... 20:30 thd russ, rach: I found the missing paragraph, for when you get back from lunch. It is good to know that I can save documents while sleepwalking. 20:15 thd kados: I have some information and a question about adding MARC serials support to Koha 20:15 thd kados: are you around 20:12 rach maybe you should do that so you're in sync with each other :-) 20:11 thd rach: actually I have not had breakfast yet today 20:11 thd :-) 20:10 rach :-) you really are on nz time 20:10 thd russ-lunch: I will explain some other utility after lunch 20:09 thd russ: The default configuration gives the impression that MARC support is extremely incomplete instead of modestly incomplete in some ways. 20:09 russ if you could keep us posted on your progress that would be great 20:07 russ well i dont think poor is the right word, maybe incomplete is a better description 20:07 thd russ: This is especially true with MARC Koha. 20:07 thd russ: It is easy to come away with a poor impression of Koha by only seeing what is obvious in the demonstration and a cursory examination of documents. 20:06 russ yep 20:05 thd russ: Feature list is good for koha.org 20:05 thd russ: So there is the feature list purpose to show not just the obvious and superficial but also the features that cannot be seen without close examination. 20:05 russ that is a mouthful :-) 20:03 thd russ: Koha Analytical Feature List and Documentation Index with Demonstration and Example Implementation Links is a title that I have attached to the comprehensive draft file. 20:02 thd russ: As a feature list it is not overly important however I am trying to do other things with it. 20:00 russ oh well take care, i don't think it is so important that you need to jepordise your sleep 20:00 thd russ: I have a tendency to work until I cannot stay awake. That only works for a few days without good rest then productivity falls to almost nothing until the sleep deficit is restored. 19:59 thd russ: That is the consequence of sleep loss. Forgetting to save ones work :) That was not of great importance. 19:57 thd russ: I was grepping for some descriptive text I had written in a paragraph from yesterday but I may not have save that document. 19:57 russ any idea how much more you have to do? 19:57 russ right 19:56 thd russ: even suitably divided it might need to be trimmed back to serve as a feature list. 19:55 russ right 19:55 thd russ: I would have posted something and kept adding to it, however, the design as a large document to be divided has meant that posting it by degrees would be double work for each dividing process. 19:52 thd russ: It is currently one large document that needs division by module and development level if not more than that to be readable. 19:49 russ i'd really like to have a look if at all possible 19:43 thd russ: Yes, but I would be afraid to give the wrong impression from just one whole document. 19:42 russ have you got anything we can take a look at? 19:41 thd russ: As I said it is more than just a features list. 19:40 russ crikey 19:40 thd russ: yes I have about three weeks work into it so far and practically put myself on NZ time with sleep loss. 18:28 russ thd: have you made any more progress with the features section for the website? 18:28 russ hi thd 18:13 russ kados: you about? 12:31 Sylvain ciao 12:31 Sylvain bon, j'y vais, si y a un problème, dis le moi 12:19 Sylvain paul je viens de mettre un fix pour le bug #1013 dont je t'avais parler l'autre jour. Si tu peux vérifier que ça ne casse rien et que ça fonctionne aussi chez toi