Time  Nick     Message
10:38 Sylvain  je vais peut être me contenter de leur faire la modif chez eux alors
10:38 Sylvain  ok.
10:38 paul     comme remarque
10:38 paul     mais comme on reprend toute l'ergonomie dans la 3.0, ca va peut être etre inutile
10:37 paul     plutôt une bonne idée.
10:37 Sylvain  paul j'ai une petite question (comme à chaque fois, c'est ce qui me fait penser à lancer irc :)). A l'ENSMP ils m'ont fait une remarque pas idiote c'est que pour les prêts, ça serait bien que le titre de la page soit différent pour les sorties et les retours. T'en penses quoi ? Pour, Contre, Sans opinion ? (ça oblige à rajouter une un xx-top dans les includes)
10:35 Sylvain  hi all !
10:03 paul     hdl_away :  bonne nouvelle dans ta boite mail ;-)
04:30 Malin    see ya :-)
04:30 Malin    thanks for the info
04:30 Malin    ok, gotta go
04:26 Malin    although there are some libraries in Poland using koha afaik
04:25 Malin    i'll be just writing about it
04:25 Malin    no, not using koha
04:25 paul     a polish librarian using Koha ?
04:24 Malin    paul, FYI: i'm a librarian from Poland :-)
04:24 paul     (maybe monday)
04:24 Malin    cool
04:24 paul     should be in 2 days
04:24 Malin    guess koha 2.2.4 isn't released yet?
04:24 paul     who is Malin ?
04:23 Malin    hi
01:07 thd      chris: happy nourishment
01:07 thd      chris: There might be a simpler means of implementing my idea with branch categories but I cannot think of that well enough yet.
01:06 chris    ok, ive gotta go sort out some dinner
01:06 chris    nope that should be safe enough
01:04 thd      chris: Would any change in the size of branches.branchcode break anything?
01:02 thd      rach: Crashing is a little too easy with MARC 21 Koha.  MARC 21 Koha has to catch up to UNIMARC Koha with basic safety defaults.
01:01 thd      rach: system behaviour has to conform to something useful practise model learnt from experience otherwise the user will crash Koha at first outing and look elsewhere for an ILS :)
00:58 thd      rach: yes, of course, you should have a clear idea from experience about what options people want rather than turning the system administration into an airline instrument panel :)
00:57 chris    thd: exactly thats what i was trying to say :)
00:57 rach     so in the begining htere where almost no configuration options, each release there are more
00:57 rach     and we tend to move variables to configuration options only when we've got a clear understanding of what htey should do
00:57 thd      rach: However, proprietary systems can leave out user options for special expensive custom configuration that the user has no ability to configure himself because of no access to the code.
00:56 rach     rather than do everything through extensive configuration options
00:56 chris    or are in fact allowed to
00:55 rach     um I think koha differes from commercial systems in that you are expected to alter the templates directly
00:55 chris    then again they may not
00:55 thd      rach: Many sophisticated proprietary systems may have extensive configuration options for the user who is not allowed to touch the closed code.
00:55 rach     sorry 2 thoughts going
00:55 rach     um that sounds like cheating :-)
00:55 chris    in what way rach?
00:53 thd      rach: 4 character standard library names are universal I was just trying to find a way for using a mnemonic in a branch code for a virtual branch with the same mnemonic for associating the virtual branch with the branch.
00:52 rach     if you're thinking that you can get a setup like NPL or HLT without "touching" the templates I guess we should disabuse people of that notion
00:51 rach     but that is the sort of thing that isn't very well documented for the DIYer I suspect
00:50 chris    depending on what you want
00:50 chris    yep, by default koha just displays all, with a bit of tweaking its easy to make it display different ones in different places
00:50 thd      chris: visible
00:50 thd      chris: I see, that is opposite, 'non-hidden' :)
00:49 chris    of course a branch can belong to mulitple categories
00:49 chris    you can tell it to only show branches of a certain category
00:49 chris    branches of a certain category
00:48 thd      chris: Sorry, what is not hidden?
00:47 chris    thd: its not hidden its exactly the opposite from hidden
00:47 thd      rach: I have to know that there is something there designated for configuration unless I reinvent a new method every time.
00:47 rach     i'm pretty sure the codes from HLT's old system were all 4
00:47 rach     the branchcode thing may be a hangover from our original development
00:46 rach     yeah, I'm not arguing that if all you want to change is this one thing it's a royal pain to work it out
00:46 thd      rach: Never mind my suggestion.  Templates may well be the right place to implement this.  However, template configuration features need their own documentation that does not depend upon the prospective adopter hunting for comments in every template :)
00:44 rach     like if you give them a "plain english" name, would that fool you into thinking that they were going to display?
00:44 rach     would naming them differently imply then that they were something they aren't?
00:42 rach     templates anyway - and it makes it quick and easy to get it right
00:42 rach     "touching
00:42 thd      chris: I originally wanted to ask the following.  Is there any reason that branches.branchcode cannot be changed from varchar(4) to varchar(8) or something to support more flexible naming of virtual branches?
00:42 rach     because realistically you're in
00:42 rach     at the moment it's very flexible if you're working with a bigger library
00:41 rach     I suspect it is easier (for people who have been doing the development) not to try and abstract them out yet
00:41 rach     so this isnt' necessarily how it will always be, but we haven't necessarily achieved consesus on what you would show where
00:40 thd      rach: There would seem to be an advantage for default templates to support maximally useful default behaviour.
00:40 rach     so you want different categories to show in isuues, returns, transfers, different places in the opac as well I think
00:39 rach     you could if things were more stable - but there are a lot of different places you want different things to show
00:38 rach     I think the short answer is "yes"  If you use the same branch categories say as we do, and our templates, then you'll get the same branches showing in different places as we do
00:38 thd      chris: would it not be easier to define branchcategories.hidden, branchcategories.hiddenopactemplate, etc. ?
00:35 thd      chris: sorry template, yes.
00:34 chris    thats showing all branches
00:34 chris    you make a modification of the template of script which calls the script
00:34 chris    no
00:34 thd      chris: You make a custom modification of the script?
00:34 chris    http://opac.rangitikei.katipo.co.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
00:33 chris    eg
00:33 chris    you tell getbranches what category you want to show
00:33 chris    you dont mark a category hidden
00:33 chris    no no no
00:32 thd      chris: I mean every time that getbranches() runs there is no need to resubmit a branch categories form marking a category hidden :)
00:31 chris    its entirely up to them
00:31 chris    they can define them once, none, 20 times
00:31 thd      chris: superlibrarian
00:31 chris    what user?
00:30 thd      chris: I hope the user only has to define branch categories once :)
00:30 chris    next time you submit the form you will be passing it to the script
00:29 chris    why?
00:29 thd      chris: Yet the status of hidden must be stored somewhere after the original branch category creation form has been submitted and expired?
00:27 chris    sorry, opac-reserve.pl
00:27 chris    opac-renew.pl is the only script that uses it
00:25 chris    or you can just whack it in the code
00:25 chris    to tell it
00:25 chris    2 ways, you can put a hidden input in the form that calls whatever page shows branches
00:24 thd      chris: How does getbranches() know which not to display in the OPAC?
00:23 chris    getbranches() will find all branches
00:23 chris    will find all branches belonging to $type
00:23 chris    getbranches($type)
00:23 chris    it doesnt matter what the actual code is
00:22 chris    or anything
00:22 chris    you could have ZQ = Can circulate books
00:22 chris    for HLT IS = Issues
00:22 chris    no
00:22 thd      chris: Invisible in OPAC category?
00:21 chris    is a
00:21 chris    is is category
00:21 chris    its not an invisible branch
00:21 chris    quite easily
00:20 thd      chris: How can that work without storing the invisible branch value somewhere?
00:20 chris    it doesnt hurt to have the others there
00:20 chris    its not so much hidden branches, just some should only show on certain pages
00:19 chris    by default it will just show you all branches
00:19 chris    eg <input type=hidden name="branchcategory" value="IS">
00:18 chris    and passed as input
00:18 chris    in the template
00:18 thd      chris: Where is the variable stored?
00:18 chris    which is used to determine what category should be showing
00:17 chris    you should just set a variable in the template
00:17 chris    no
00:17 thd      chris: So there should be a brarches.hidebranch column?
00:17 chris    well the next release after this anyway
00:16 chris    ive fixed it for 2.2
00:16 chris    it used to work, but got busted when they got made a seperate table
00:16 chris    soon no thd, when i put the fix back in
00:15 chris    paul made it a seperate table, which allows a branch to belong to more than one category (which is handy)
00:15 thd      chris: With a custom modification of the code?
00:15 chris    i had category as a column
00:15 chris    ahh now i remember
00:15 chris    you just tell get branches to only get branches that belong to a certain category
00:14 thd      chris: how are the others hidden?
00:13 chris    for instance at hlt, only branches of type IS show at circulations
00:13 chris    well often ppl only want certain branches to show
00:12 thd      chris: What do branch categories do then?
00:12 rach     shows what I know :-)
00:11 chris    and i think i may have put those in
00:11 rach     oh look he's back :-0"
00:11 chris    im back
00:11 chris    yes they do
00:11 rach     I'm not sure what he uses them for
00:11 rach     I think that's actually a question for paul, he put them in
00:11 thd      s/meaningful/functional/
00:11 thd      rach: Do branch categories do anything meaningful?
00:09 thd      rach: Do you know if my idea would break something?
00:08 rach     Chris is out at the moment
00:06 thd      chris: Would such a change in the size of branches.branchcode break anything?
00:05 thd      chris: So, a virtual branch code for the branch MAIN might be MAINREPA or even MAINREPAIR.
00:03 thd      chris: My idea is to have virtual branch codes better related to the branches to which they correspond.
00:00 thd-away chris: Is there any reason that branches.branchcode cannot be changed from varchar(4) to varchar(8) or something to support more flexible naming of virtual branches?
16:12 thd      sleep is very important
16:11 kados    sweet
16:11 chris    had a good nights sleep last night
16:11 chris    shes doing much better
16:10 kados    how's laurel?
16:10 chris    heya kados
16:09 kados    oops ;-)
16:09 kados    bradl: hey chris
16:09 thd      chris: Then it is unavoidable.
16:09 thd      chris: It is bad if on the subway everyone in the same car is coughing or otherwise manifesting some illness.
16:08 chris    bummer
16:07 chris    i have a soft spot for NYC
16:06 chris    ahh
16:06 owen     thd, are you in one of the most crowded cities on earth?
16:06 chris    shanghai? ... or more likely new york city?
16:05 thd      chris: Then, I am in one of the most dangerous places on earth :)
16:05 chris    though, not this xmas, cos ill be pittsburgh so wont be here to show you round :)
16:05 chris    bali is almost to nz .. just come here :)
16:04 chris    good thinking
16:03 owen     Not a trip to Bali like my wife wanted
16:03 chris    got plans for xmas?
16:02 chris    i suspect where you guys are would be quite a safe place :)
16:00 chris    crowded cities .. those will be the places to stay out of
15:59 chris    which isnt rocket science :)
15:59 chris    mostly it seems to be "if this mutates and becomes a killer virus, it will be a killer virus"
15:59 owen     We're starting to see some 'not if but when' articles in the mainstream here, but none of the terrifying death tolls predicted in other more obscure sources
15:58 chris    but very little in the way of facts
15:58 chris    there is a bit of hype
15:56 owen     You hear much in the news over there abotu avian flu?  It's a little closer to home there than here
15:56 owen     Yeah, busy here too
15:55 chris    doing good owen, busy ... but isnt everyone :) other than that good
15:55 owen     Hey chris, how's it going?
15:50 chris    morning
14:25 kados    maybe ;-)
14:20 thd      kados: yes, no, or maybe?  for my suggestion above
14:17 thd      kados: perhaps you could supply me with the original forms of the features without names attached.  I could then ask the interpretation question much better if I still had one.
14:15 kados    please send it to me ... I'll pass it on
14:15 thd      kados: Is it wrong for me to send them the message I have almost finished drafting about interpreting these features?
14:14 kados    and are ready to make an announcement ;-)
14:13 kados    until they have committed to doing it for sure
14:13 thd      kados: Do you no longer have it?
14:13 kados    because the anonymous folks who are planning to do that dev work have asked to remain anonymous
14:13 kados    yea ... and I can't give that to you unfortunately
14:13 thd      kados: To attempt a translation I would need the original text.
14:12 kados    thd: feel free to translate ;-)
14:12 kados    thd: right
14:12 kados    they could use better translations
14:12 thd      kados: They have no one who writes English?
14:11 kados    I added them after very rough translation with babelfish
14:11 kados    hehe
14:11 thd      kados: so tell now, kill very much later :)
14:10 kados    I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you ;-)
14:10 thd      kados: Why secret :) ?
14:09 kados    that's a secret ;-)
14:09 thd      kados: Or did they add them to the developer's wiki themselves, as they are now?
14:07 thd      kados: Did you receive the INEO and SAN contributed roadmap 3.0 features in their current English state?  Did you have them in French and pass them through the babelfish? :)
14:05 kados    thd: yea ... what's up?
13:32 thd      kados: are you there?
12:25 Sylvain  je demandé confirmation aux bibliothécaires concernés qu'ils sont bien de cet avis avant de faire la modif.
12:24 hdl      Merci pour ces remarques. J'en tiendrai compte par la suite.
12:22 Sylvain  c'est vrai que c'est moins intuitif je pense
12:22 Sylvain  de la même manière pour les prêts au niveau des dates, le fait qu'on soit sur date < et non <= pour la date de fin les a troublé
12:21 Sylvain  hdl j'essaierai de leur demander ce qu'ils en pensent et le changerais le cas échéant
12:21 Sylvain  et c'est aussi que l'école des mines me demande pourquoi il ne voit pas d'utilisateurs dans cette liste ;)
12:20 Sylvain  c'est juste sur le plan fonctionnel ça me paraissait bizarre
12:20 Sylvain  oui pas compliqué hdl :)
12:20 hdl      large.
12:19 hdl      Mais ce n'est pas trop difficille de faire le plus.
12:19 thd      paul: I would settle for 50% of you or kados at times if that were possible :)
12:19 hdl      Sylvain.
12:19 hdl      Pour moi, je pensais que les prêts en cours n'avaient pas à être dans les stats.
12:18 paul     ;-)
12:18 thd      paul: like you as well, when you are not marked paul_away? :)
12:18 hdl      Je ne connais pas assez la pratique des bibliothèques pour savoir ce qui est le plus pertinent.
12:17 paul     (joshua is never away, but often not 100% here ;-) )
12:17 Sylvain  ok :)
12:17 paul     ;-)
12:17 thd      kados: are you still there?
12:17 paul     non, hdl
12:17 Sylvain  r
12:17 Sylvain  ou paul peut ête ?
12:16 Sylvain  hdl ? Quand on fait la liste des plus gros utilisateurs, pourquoi est-ce qu'on ne prend en compte que les prêts "retournés" ?
12:14 thd      kados: Have libraries ever asked you about title sorting without using leading articles?
12:13 paul     kados : about members-flags.pl => i have already permissions=> 1 on my cvs copy
12:13 thd      kados: I would expect that very little software manages to identify 'the' in Arabic reliably.
12:10 thd      kados: So, by your comment, Zebra cannot cope reliably with 'the' in Arabic?
12:09 kados    file even
12:09 kados    no ... you just specify the exact environments in the config gile
12:08 thd      kados: Does not that require looking up every base word in a dictionary to determine the applicable part of speech or meaning for the prefix context to use the as a stop word?
12:07 kados    I think what happens is that you can setup envoronments in which a prefix is to be ignored
12:07 kados    let me see ...
12:06 kados    seb explained it to me
12:06 kados    yea ... so that's no problem in zebra
12:06 thd      ?
12:06 thd      kados: What about the problem where the 'the' prefix character changes its meaning to another word depending upon the base word to which it is attached
12:05 kados    thd: but no, i don't _know_ arabic
12:05 kados    thd: and as a linguist I know a few odd characteristics of the language
12:04 kados    thd: a few greetings ;-)
12:04 thd      kados: Do you know any Arabic?
12:04 thd      kados: yes, I saw documentation about the configuration files.
12:03 kados    thd: but there would need to be extensive configuration files written
12:03 kados    thd: zebra is capable of doing all the stuff that would need to be done
12:03 thd      kados: yes
12:02 kados    thd: I've spoken with indexdata about arabic language
12:02 kados    thd: yea
12:02 thd      kados: are you still there?
12:02 thd      paul: Having to determine the meaning of a base word in order to know whether a prefix should be a stop word or not is a significant amount of work for an indexing program.  This does seem like a fun problem though now that I understand it.  Too bad I do not know any Arabic at all :)
12:01 paul     i'll commit on 2.2
12:00 kados    paul: (or if you plan to ;-))
12:00 kados    paul: I'm happy to commit the fix unless you already have
11:59 kados              flagsrequired => {permissions => 1},
11:59 kados    paul: flagsrequired => {borrowers => 1}, should be
11:57 kados    paul: member-flags.pl
11:57 kados    paul: another bug found for permissions you might want to know about
11:54 kados    (ok ... I manually change it ;-))
11:50 paul     (don't do it immediatly, i'm commiting now ;-)
11:50 kados    k ... just making sure ;-)
11:50 kados    paul: I'll check CVS version then
11:50 paul     yes, just replace by reserveforothers
11:50 kados    paul: thanks
11:50 kados    paul: ahh ... good
11:50 paul     fixed
11:50 kados    paul: is this the problem line: flagsrequired => {parameters => 1},
11:50 paul     right.
11:49 kados    paul: but it should work with only 'reserveforothers'
11:49 kados    paul: it requires 'paramaters' or 'superlibrarian' privs
11:49 kados    paul: I have noticed that 'request.pl' does not use permissions correctly
11:48 kados    paul: if you have a moment
11:48 paul     yes ?
11:48 kados    paul: :-)
11:48 kados    paul: one more small question
11:48 kados    paul: thanks
11:43 thd      paul: There seems to be no widely accepted word stemming solution for Arabic.
11:42 thd      paul: The prefix character for 'the' may have other meanings depending upon the base word to which it is attached.
11:41 thd      paul: This Arabic question looks very tricky.  I see the problem more fully now.  The problem as your English examples showed relates to prefix and suffix characters attached to logical words that have a separate meaning as semantic words.  Arabic is too inflected to be easily indexed with stop words.
11:37 paul     however, I agree we should integrate into Koha a report like the php one you use in NPL
11:37 paul     reserves are usually done only on issued items. so when the book is returned, the librarian is warned.
11:36 paul     kados, was on phone
11:33 kados    paul: you around?
11:30 kados    paul: how do they know if a patron makes a reserve?
11:29 kados    paul: do your libraries have a report to show 'items on hold'?
11:29 paul     hi kados
11:29 kados    everyone even ;-)
11:29 kados    hi everyeon
11:02 thd      paul: At the bottom of Encode::Arabic::Buckwalter POD is a comment "Perl is also designed to make the easy jobs not that easy ;)"