Time Nick Message 11:41 thd paul: good weekend 11:41 paul have a nice week end & read you on monday thd 11:40 paul my 3 sons are waiting for me (as well as my wife ;-) ) 11:40 paul It' time to leave. 11:39 paul Even a new edition without any change, as it has a new ISBN if i don't mind. 11:39 thd If the publisher changes the MARC record would be different. 11:38 paul any changes means a new MARC record. 11:38 paul I don't think so. 11:37 thd In France it is usually broché and éditions poche. The publisher generally changes as well. 11:33 thd Oops 11:33 paul hardcover & softcover ??? 11:33 thd Paul: Do UNIMARC bibliographic records often hold hardcover and softcover information in the same record? 11:32 thd MARC21 bibliographic records usually match expression and often hold multiple ISBNs for multiple manifestations (harcover and sofcover). Also, hold multiple copy information in holdings fields. 11:28 paul except that MARC=ON does not really support this scheme 11:28 paul right. 11:27 thd analogy between FRBR and original Koha model is work (all variants on a particular author's creative work including subsequent transformations, revisions, translations) = biblio in Koha : expression (variant revisions, translations, etc.) = group (biblioitems) in Koha : manifestation (a single form of an expression, hardcover, softcover, etc.) = ? in Koha : copies = items in Koha 11:18 thd The PowerPoint link above is very good: O'Neill, Edward T. "Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records: OCLC's Experience Identifying and Using Works" (PowerPoint:26MB/35 slides) Given at FRBR Workshop, 8-9 July 2004, Frankfurt (Germany). 11:17 thd http://www.oclc.org/research/presentations/oneill/frbrddb2.ppt 11:16 thd http://www.oclc.org/research/projects/frbr/default.htm 11:13 thd Functional Requriements for Bibliographic Records 11:12 thd I was getting a lesson in those details last night. 11:12 paul FRBR ? 11:12 paul and as you have 1 biblio = 1 bibid, you can't key biblioitems 11:11 thd Last night I had been considering how closed the match is or not between Koha and the FRBR model. 11:11 paul but when MARC=OFF (ask katipans for details), you can have 1 biblio = X biblioitems 11:11 paul so, when MARC=ON, 1 biblio = 1 biblioitems 11:10 paul (biblio & items) 11:10 paul in MARc, there are only 2 levels. 11:10 paul (so 4 items at all) 11:10 paul 1 biblio => 2 biblioitems => 1 biblioitem with 3 items, the other with 1 11:09 paul in Koha 1.2, we could have : 11:09 paul mmm... complex question. 11:08 thd Well, bibid could always be keyed to biblioitemnumber in marc_biblio as well. 11:05 paul lol 11:05 thd Very creative :) 11:04 paul as i'm definetly stupid, I make bibid "auto_increment", so the value is calculated by mysql & different from biblionumber !!! 11:04 paul no. 11:01 thd Does bibid hold the same value as biblionumber? 11:00 paul (should have been drunk probably. But that's strange, I never drink alcohol...) 10:59 paul marc_biblio having bibid AND biblionumber to keep trace of the link 10:59 paul (it's biblionumber) 10:59 paul does not exist 10:59 thd paul: What table is bibid in on the old Koha side of the DB? 10:58 paul bibis is the primary key of marc_biblio 10:58 thd paul: What table is bibid in? 10:57 paul that's all I meaned here 10:57 paul it's a design mistake, as bibid could have be biblionumber as well. 10:57 paul internally, Koha uses a bibid to store the "MARC record number". 10:57 paul the MARC record has biblionumber in it (usually in 090$9, but can be somewhere else) 10:56 thd paul: This is from your migration email message. 10:54 thd >>- bibid (marc PK. It's a design mistake I made, for sure) 10:54 thd >>- biblionumber (biblio PK) 10:54 paul ??? 10:53 thd paul: Is a MARC bibliographic record keyed to biblioitemnumber or biblionumber in actual usage within Koha? 10:41 thd My former business associate in my bookshop was a Brazilian fluent in French more than English (he studied in France for years), but he is back in Brazil. I never asked him this question and do not remember how the distinction may be given on French books. 10:37 paul (even if a printed book has been printed on a printer, I agree ;-) ) 10:36 thd :) 10:36 paul impression is used when you use a printer. But not when you speak of a printed book. 10:36 thd Paul: No one woul ever use édition révision and impression? 10:35 paul like "free" in english (libre/gratuit) 10:35 paul or can't be distinguished. 10:35 paul just depends on the context. 10:34 thd Paul: How would the French distinction be given? édition révision and impression? 10:29 thd thd: For different editions, the author or editor makes changes. For different printing it is usually only the printer making minor corrections if any. 10:26 thd edition in English is for revision where the text changes as opposed to the English 'printing' where the text is not usually sopposed to change 10:25 thd paul: édition combines two English meanings 10:24 paul (in french "édition" has many meanings) 10:24 paul what is "edition" ? isn't is volume ? 10:24 paul imho, we should add some values to them. like language. 10:23 paul you should ask katipans (chris or rach), as i have added nothing to those tables that were created in 1.0 10:23 thd paul: édition , why is there no biblioitems.edition in Koha? 10:19 thd 2nd ed. or 3rd revised ed. of a biblio 10:19 paul ??? 10:18 thd paul: where is edition in the Koha tables? 10:17 thd paul: I finally understand now and am very happy. 10:16 thd paul: chris and rach were explaining the old Koha data structure model to me last night after I had become confused about something. 10:15 thd paul: Also, at some point libraries may want to hold more holdings information than fit in the alphabet plus numbers for the possible subfields of only one field. 10:12 thd paul: by having Koha holdings support more than one field 10:11 thd paul: In the great future of MARC compatablility it would be nice to amongst other things make migration to Koha and record exchange a little easier 10:10 thd no need to change anything as everything works now I presume 10:09 thd 876 $c is cost and 852 etc has other information 10:08 paul & no plans to change this atm 10:08 paul for instance, it's unsupported by Koha 10:08 paul so, something like $3 for UNIMARC 10:07 thd in MARC21 10:07 thd copy number $t is used as a key to holding fields 10:06 paul (did not read it. Could you repeat pls ?) 10:06 thd paul: I posted the anser on IRC after went to sea 10:05 thd paul: I was meant to write a message to koha-dev explaining the answer I found for you price question 10:04 paul thx 10:04 thd paul: good afternoon 08:30 paul & I usually speak of "Koha, SIGB sous licence libre" 08:29 paul However, hdl is right : ILS = SIGB (Système Intégré de Gestion de Bibliothèque) 08:29 paul so, nobody is confused by 2 meanings of the same words, as in english. 08:28 paul thd : in french, we are lucky : libre = free "as speech", and free "as beer" is "gratuit". 08:27 hdl shaun : rebooting is quite long.... ;) 08:27 hdl shaun : Système Intégré de Gestion de Bibliothèque "Libre" (Libre stands for Open-Source).... 06:25 shaun paul or hdl: how do you label koha in french? i.e. "Open Source Integrated Library System" 05:31 paul 1-A is different from IndependantBranches, as a given library may want to have "common" & "local" budgets for branches 05:30 paul OK for 1-B 04:40 hdl or both ? 04:40 hdl b) If user is superlibrarian, he may access all branches, if not, he only has grant access to HIS own branch ? 04:40 hdl or 04:40 hdl a) IndependantBranches Switch used for 1-A ? 04:40 hdl Is this : 04:40 hdl paul : when you have time, pls tell me what you like to adopt : 04:27 paul (on phon) 04:27 paul_away right. adopted 04:27 hdl paul_away : Should IndependantBranches Switch be used for 1-A ? 04:27 hdl paul_away : Anyway, independantBranches switch, the problem may be turned. 04:27 hdl paul_away : If user is superlibrarian, he may access all branches, if not, he only has grant access to HIS own branch. 04:27 hdl paul_away : would it be useful to distinguish suprelibrarian from others in 1-B: that is : 02:22 thd rach: may all your junk be quality junk :-) 02:20 thd Unititle is not linked correctly in the default Koha MARC21 mapping. It should be 240 $a not 246 $a, which is variant or short title 02:07 rach yup - so you could presumably make an fbr version of koha if you felt moved 01:59 thd For the FBR to koha analogy to work well the title column should be in the biblioitems table not the biblio table, but the value of the unititle column in the biblio table would be the title when no unititle was otherwise present. That would be a little more involved to program and not have been an expedient pragmatic choice. 01:51 thd Uniform titles are an abstract that are usually given in the form of the title of the first appearance of the work in its original language. 01:50 rach ah yep 01:50 thd The uniform title does not change when a work is translated or adapted. 01:49 thd works are supposed to be distinguised by a uniform title. 01:48 rach and now you've lost me :-) 01:48 thd Well, the biblio table has both a title and a unititle column. The real world problem is that the title serves as a unittle in most cases where most works have only one expression and never become popular enough to be revised, translated, or filmed. 01:46 rach or you can if you want :-) 01:46 rach it just does it without having to look at the confusing numbers 01:46 rach yep - koha does all that too 01:39 thd MARC bibliographic records are often expressions, sometimes having multiple ISBNs in the same record for hardcover and softcover in the same record. MARC bibliographic records also include multiple copies for holdings in the same record. MARC authority records can have an authority for a uniform title which would be a biblio in Koha. 01:32 thd manifestation would be a group of items but would generally map uniquely to some of the columns of the biblioitems table such as ISBN and size. 01:29 thd kados understands how Koha works better, his analogy is better than the one I was drawing to Koha. 01:29 rach if manifestation is a group of groups, or a group of itemtypes in practice, then we don't have that 01:28 rach sounds likely 01:27 thd the analogy kados drew between FRBR and Koha is work = biblio : expression = group (biblioitems) : manifestation ? [he omitted if I remember well] : copies = items 01:26 rach but for the serious schollar, you can still see that you have an original 1956 edition, as well as the 2005 reprint 01:25 rach only the barest details that identify a particular work are on the biblio - so that you can have all the items that a punter would think of as being the same thing, collected together 01:24 rach and edition, publisher, and other details like that are what's on the group - so you still have that info 01:24 rach and if that's going to make the best sense to your borrowers 01:23 rach yes - but we recomend that different publishers are catalogued under one biblio, if it is the same intellectual work 01:23 thd different publishers are usually catalogued as different primary records for different expressions. Different publishers often means different editions. The biblio is the primary record in Koha. 01:23 rach it's a bit more cut and dried I suspect 01:22 rach so you don't have to think wether these things are pretty much the same or not 01:21 rach I *think* that our groups are easier to implement than the manifestations - they require les thinking by the librarians :-) 01:20 rach but in practice, I suspect you wouldn't 01:20 rach even if they had the same itemtype 01:20 rach in koha you might end up with 2 groups in that example, because they would have different publication dates 01:19 thd a different picture from the same publisher could be a different manifestation but publishers change covers all the time and libraries seldom ever catalogue cover varients except for rare books. 01:18 rach of = as 01:18 rach ie - would the first paperback edition of lord of the rings, be the same manifestation of the latest edition? 01:17 rach or would they be different as well because they would have a different picture on the cover? 01:17 rach but two paperbacks by different publishers be the same manifestation? 01:16 thd yes 01:16 rach so would a paperback and a hardback be different manifestations? 01:16 thd The common distinguishing factor of a manifestation is merely binding. 01:14 thd If there were a group of groups (bibliotems), that could be a manifestation representing primarily a unique format in which an expression (biblio) is issued. 01:06 thd good evening chris 01:05 chris catch you later thd 01:05 chris well its been fun chatting with you, and I hope it was useful, but im going to retire to the lounge and spend some of my friday evening with my wife 01:04 chris exactly :-) 01:04 thd Library systems should hide the codes of MARC so that people do not have to worry about them if they have no need to worry. 01:04 chris seems a good way to share catalog data 01:03 chris i dont see a problem exporting and importing to and from MARC 01:02 thd I know the debates about newer better models but there is too much invested in MARC and there are always different newer better models every decade or so. Changing formats every decade would be a real problem. 01:02 chris but anyway, #koha has heard my marc rant before, so ill shut up about it now :) 01:02 chris the MA even 01:01 chris thats just inhumane :) 01:01 chris humans shouldnt have to deal with it :-) 01:01 chris yeah, the thing that gets me with MARC is that ppl seem to forget the M stands for machine 01:00 thd MARC is a product of its time of origin but it will not be changing into anything better for many decades. 00:59 chris id never heard of FRBR .. id worked with MARC before .. and thought it was a horribly inefficient way to store data, so i built something different .. and it seemed to work .. so i left it that way :) 00:57 thd all good programmers are lazy. The lazier you are, the harder you work to make things efficient :) 00:56 chris its been bent a little out of shape to deal with the importation and display of MARC records .. but it can be hammered back 00:56 chris so thats why it ended up the way it did 00:55 chris im a lazy programmer, i dont want to have to write a routine to change the same information in 3 different places, when i could store and change it one 00:55 chris which is why koha was perhaps is quite different 00:54 chris exactly 00:54 thd library records have never been known for their data efficiency except for the use of authorities to control terms and names. 00:53 chris its a recipe for corruption 00:53 chris because there are mulitple places that need to be updated 00:53 chris data redundancy is bad wrong and evil 00:53 chris so i made biblioitems to group together like information 00:52 chris it seemed retarded to me, to store the publishers name 3 times, for 3 items 00:52 thd work = all variants of an author's effort including the adaptations of others : expression = biblio : manifestation : copy = item 00:52 chris but thats a by product 00:52 chris it just so happens it can be bent to practical usage 00:51 rach in the same manifestation 00:51 rach because my plain english meaning of the word manifestation wouldn't allow for you having different itemtypes - particularly if your itemtypes implied a different format 00:51 chris the biblio, biblioitems and items structure is an attempt to get as close to 3NF normalisation as possible 00:49 rach is manifestation something with a technical/defined meaning in frbr? 00:49 chris to=2 00:49 thd what I posted the first time :) 00:49 chris so you would need to groups 00:48 thd s/expression/manifestation/ 00:48 chris if you have more than one itemtype in a group, then not everything in the group is the same 00:48 thd s/manifestation/expression/ 00:47 thd Group is not a perfect fit for manifestation then. 00:47 rach nope 00:46 thd Can I associate more than one itemtype with the same group? 00:43 chris in the biblioitems table 00:43 chris biblioitemnumber 00:43 rach in the biblioitems table I would think 00:43 thd Where is the unique ID of a group stored? 00:39 thd FRBR is a natural model that you identified but was missed in the earlier history of cataloguing practise. 00:39 rach lucky for us other people were into MARC :-) 00:39 rach we got to concentrate on what we wanted users to see, and what would make for the "cleanest" records 00:37 rach this I suspect is what came out of not having to worry about MARC when we wrote the first version 00:37 thd FRBR exists for pragmatic reasons and it also fails to work reliably for the pragmatic reason that library records had not originally been developed with FRBR in mind. 00:36 rach FRBR is a good one, the folks at our national library got very excited about that 00:36 rach yep, we really appreciate all efforts to translate 00:36 rach we tend to come from the "but it makes sense, why doesn't everyone do it " school, which makes it harder to understand I'm sure :-) 00:35 thd Therefore, I must understand it intuitively so that I can persuade others of its importance in the library jargon that they understand. 00:34 rach we did it for pragmatic reasons rather than because we had library schollarship behind us :-) 00:33 thd I am excited. I also need to convince other people that this is exciting and works well so that they understand it very clearly. 00:33 rach because it simplifies the info held in the biblio, without just loosing it 00:32 rach people who get excited about frbr tend to get excited about our groups 00:32 thd iin the FRBR model 00:31 thd could be a manifestation 00:31 rach rather than item xxx 00:30 rach the group is there to group a bunch of things which are the same - other than that they have different barcodes, together, so that they are quicker to catalogue, group together in the display, involve less disk space, are quicker to search, and to make it easy to reserve the next avialable paperback 00:30 thd I mean I am not sure what group does other than possibly represent a manifestation of an expression defined in a biblio. 00:28 rach the functional purpose should be on the itemtype 00:28 rach you don't 00:28 rach you don' 00:28 thd I am not sure how to assign a functional purpose to group itself. 00:28 rach and sometimes popular things - bestsellers 00:28 rach and things that can't be issued - reference, stack 00:27 rach oh and more format - large print, talking book 00:27 rach and/or content - fiction/non fiction 00:27 rach and/or format - video, cd, dvd 00:26 rach yep - they are generally to distinguish between either audience - junior, teen, adult 00:26 thd It seems helpful for me to think of item type in terms of a functional purpose. I would think of itemtype as circulation type. The rules for a given circulation type can be redefined. 00:22 thd Often only one. however, I am thinking of the sort of library that has every different type and many multiple copies in common cases and many different issueing rules. 00:19 rach if you're the sort of library that only has one of each title, then hopefully it won't get in your way 00:17 rach or on a specific group - like large print, and you get the first available in that group 00:17 rach It has some other advantages for the punters if you're a library that has multiple copies of things - for example you can put a reserve either on the whole title - first available, any group 00:16 rach rather than entering it all in each time 00:16 rach and attach them to the same grou[ 00:16 rach so that if you have a whole class load say of books come in, you just have to barcode each one after you've done the first group 00:15 rach http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/koha-help/HLT_holding 00:12 thd why are groups less typing? 00:09 chris that looks good rach 00:08 rach and have less "stuff" on screen to 00:08 chris and the search can be more efficient 00:08 rach group is just so you can do less typing 00:08 chris and uses itemtype, and category to work out if you are allowed it, and for how long etc 00:07 chris it only looks at the group record which owns that item, to find the itemtype, then it looks at the borrowers record to find what borrower type you are 00:07 rach how about that 00:07 rach OK - http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/koha-help/how_cat_works_001 00:07 chris so when you go to issue a book 00:06 chris they dont care about groups 00:06 chris issuing rules works with itemtypes and borrower categories 00:06 thd different groups cannot have different issuing rules unless there is an identity betweent the group and an itemtype? 00:05 rach yep or the notes 00:05 chris or the notes 00:05 rach Most likely the ISBN, the publisher or the physical dimensions 00:05 rach so to have the same itemtype but 2 groups, one of the other fields would need to be changing 00:04 chris yeah, ud probably have different issuing rules for that case, so different itemtypes 00:04 rach one being VJ and V 00:04 rach as in you'd tend to have 2 itemtypes 00:04 rach maybe - but probably not 00:04 thd two different goups for video, group 1 is juvenile and group 2 is adult 00:03 chris yep rach, both of type paperback 00:03 rach so something like romeo and juliet, you could have a penguin copy, and a harper collins one or something 00:02 chris so perhaps we should amend the diagram 00:02 chris but it doesnt have too 00:02 rach sure - you could have different publishers for example 00:02 chris yep, its just that as i said 99% of the time thats how it exists 00:02 thd the diagram would be better if you had 2 different groups for itemtype video for example 00:01 chris and one was 173 mins long and the other was 180 mins (im making up an example here) 00:01 chris imagine you had the two towers dvd 00:00 chris if something else was different on the group record 00:00 chris but you can have 2 groups with itemtype DVD 00:00 thd now I am confused again, thd goes to look at the diagram 23:59 chris thd: 99% of the time ppl have a group per itemtype for a given biblio 23:59 chris there is no interface to do it 23:59 chris you could create empty groups for every biblio, but youd have to do it in the database 23:58 chris itemtype is just one field of information on a group 23:58 chris they just usually end up being used that way 23:58 chris no 23:57 thd groups are not itemtypes? 23:57 chris actually i lie you could do it thd 23:57 rach yeah we would do that as an itemtype 23:57 rach groups need items to exist 23:57 chris but you could have an itemtype that means the same thing 23:56 rach nope - not really 23:56 chris nope 23:56 thd So I cannot have a group 'damaged--send for rebinding' that exists in all biblios without creating a damaged item for each biblio. 23:56 rach explains the relationship better 23:56 chris ahh cool 23:54 rach http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/koha-help/how_cat_works 23:51 chris http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album26/changes_to_group_edit_scree <-- that one rach? 23:51 chris the former 23:50 thd Do I need to create the group for a particular item or can I create it in advance of having a particular item to which it may be assigned? 23:49 rach I will go find it and put it up 23:47 chris or you create using acquisitions 23:47 chris not as such, but any new group you create on that modbibitem.pl page will automatically be assigned to that biblio 23:45 thd Does the biblio editor allow the assignment of multiple groups to a biblio? 23:42 chris suddently your two towers video has turned into harry potter :) 23:42 thd only the relevant groups are listed, very thoughtful :) 23:42 chris because if you shifted it to a group assigned to another biblio 23:41 chris it doesnt list all groups that exist 23:41 chris so that if i decided, to shift an item from the adult video group to the adult rental video group i could 23:40 chris that drop down lists all the groups assigned to a biblio 23:40 thd s/group\?/biblio for the selected item\?/ 23:39 thd s/group\?/biblio\?/ 23:39 thd Do you mean that if you had a 'crawly worms' group, it would not appear in the drop down for the item unless it had already been assigned to the group? 23:36 chris the 2 items in my example are assigned currently to the adult rental group 23:36 chris and 9 items 23:36 chris there are 7 groups 23:35 chris so for the 2 towers 23:35 chris and items assigned to groups 23:35 chris groups are assigned to biblios 23:35 chris sorry? 23:34 thd the groups in the drop down from your example are not already assigned to the item. 23:33 thd that drop down contains more than just 'adult rental video' 23:31 chris yep, like this .. the help on this page kinda explains it better 23:31 chris http://photos.bigballofwax.co.nz/gallery2/v/kohaphotos/moving+items.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 23:31 thd chris could there be more than one group assigned? 23:30 chris so the drop down only shows the existing groups attached to that biblio 23:29 chris if you wanted to change the item type, or if you had 2 items, and wanted to shift one to a new group, you would check the checkbox for that item, and you can just change the itemtype by typing in the itemtype 23:29 thd OR MODIFY DETAILS 23:29 thd [drop down] 23:29 thd RE-ASSIGN TO EXISTING GROUP 23:29 thd Modify Group - books 23:29 thd Ancient libraries (Thompson, James Westfall,) 23:29 chris thats for assigning an item to an existing group 23:28 chris in the reassign bit? 23:27 chris where is the drop down 23:24 thd how does that help when I want to populate a new item type that I just created? 23:23 chris its because we made them all books i think 23:23 thd chris was the space in the description 'crawly worms' deadly? 23:22 thd chris: that would be 'crawly worms' but I have only 'books' in the selection box. 23:20 thd in the selection box 23:20 thd worms is not listed though 23:17 chris hopefully the modbibitem.pl?bibitem=somenumber&submit.x=1 will work too now 23:16 chris yay 23:16 thd The group was assigned 23:12 thd evidently :) 23:11 chris yeah that sounds plausible 23:11 thd chris: I had used bulkmarcimport.pl to enter the biblios so it did not assign a default itemtype? 23:10 chris and then if we go to the moredetail.pl page hopefully stuff will show 23:10 chris update biblioitems set itemtype='BOOK' where itemtype is NULL; 23:10 chris we could try this 23:10 chris right 23:09 thd | WORM | crawling worms | 0 | 0.0000 | 1 | 23:09 thd | BOOK | books | 0 | 0.0000 | 0 | 23:09 thd +----------+----------------+-----------------+--------------+------------+ 23:09 thd | itemtype | description | renewalsallowed | rentalcharge | notforloan | 23:09 thd +----------+----------------+-----------------+--------------+------------+ 23:09 chris in koha 23:09 chris or go to /cgi-bin/koha/admin/itemtypes.pl 23:08 chris give you? 23:08 chris what does select * from itemtypes; 23:08 chris they all have NULL for their itemtype eh? 23:07 chris ahhh 23:07 thd | 3 | 3 | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | 0738532797 (pb | NULL | NULL | NULL | 2004 | Arcadia, | NULL | NULL | 2005-07-19 05:14:13 | chiefly ill. ; | 126 p. : | NULL | 24 cm. | Charleston, SC : | 2004103635 | NULL | NULL | 23:07 thd | 2 | 2 | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | Prentice-Hall, | NULL | NULL | 2005-07-19 05:02:41 | NULL | 239 p. | NULL | 22 cm. | Englewood Cliffs, N.J., | 63008287 | NULL | NULL | 23:07 thd | 1 | 1 | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | University of California press, | NULL | NULL | 2005-07-19 04:58:39 | front., illus. | 3 p. l., 120 p. | NULL | 20 cm. | Berkeley, Calif., | 40028301 | NULL | NULL | 23:07 thd +------------------+--------------+--------+--------+----------------+----------+----------------+------+-------+----------+-----------------+---------------------------------+------------+-------------+---------------------+----------------+-----------------+-------+--------+-------------------------+--------------+------+------+ 23:07 thd | biblioitemnumber | biblionumber | volume | number | classification | itemtype | isbn | issn | dewey | subclass | publicationyear | publishercode | volumedate | volumeddesc | timestamp | illus | pages | notes | size | place | lccn | marc | url | 23:07 chris select itemtype from biblioitems; 23:06 chris ok, what are the itemtypes? 23:06 chris hmm so it looks like it did make biblioitems 23:06 thd 3 rows 23:06 chris are there any rows? 23:05 thd what value am I loking for? 23:00 chris ahh, i always cheat and look at /etc/koha.conf :) 22:59 thd sorry I had forgotten the db name and mysql was refuing my password 22:45 chris and see if it has actually created one 22:45 chris select * from biblioitems; 22:45 chris thd: you could jump into mysql and do a 22:44 thd correction I have 3 biblios one of which has 2 items. I have been experimenting so much I forgot what state I had left things in 22:41 thd I only have one biblio in the db at the moment with 2 items 22:39 chris that has a group? 22:39 chris right it looks like it didnt make groups properly then ... can you get to any moredetail.pl page 22:38 thd the page shows with no groups in the selection box 22:36 chris i cut and paste the wrong page 22:35 chris ahh sorry 22:35 thd I copied your example :) 22:35 chris you want to be at modbibitem.pl 22:35 thd yes moditem.pl 22:35 chris yep, whats the url? 22:34 thd The page title is KOHA: INTRANET: Catalogue 22:34 chris not modbibitem.pl 22:34 chris that sounds like moditem.pl 22:33 chris hm whats the url? 22:33 thd A form form with an image button represented as a floppy disc. '()' is at the top of the form. 22:31 thd 22:31 thd Cancelled Yes No 22:31 thd Lost Yes No 22:31 thd Home Branch 22:31 thd ItemNotes 22:31 thd I have: Barcode 22:31 chris thats just one possible reason 22:31 chris the group() could be caused by the fact your group has an itemtype that isnt defined in koha 22:28 chris you should end up at the page where you can modify groups 22:28 chris where 728 is the number at bi=728 22:27 chris if you change it to /cgi-bin/koha/moditem.pl?bibitem=728&submit.x=1 22:27 chris ok 22:27 thd exactly 22:27 chris (with different numbers) 22:26 chris /cgi-bin/koha/moredetail.pl?type=&item=728&bib=728&bi=728 22:26 chris something like 22:26 chris whats the url look like thd? 22:26 chris hmm 22:26 thd suggesting no groups (biblioitems) have been assigned? 22:25 thd rach: For group I have '()' 22:25 chris you should be able to craft the url by hand 22:23 thd rach: So I have managed to go that far and I have the moredetail.pl page. 22:17 rach then click ont he barcode 22:17 rach you go find the title 22:17 rach if you're trying to get to the bit of the record which is where you change an items associated group (biblioitem) then I think we had to change something in the template to get the edit button to work 22:16 rach um I fear it 20:50 thd rach: Do you mean that I may be searching for something unfindable with any standard Koha template? 20:43 rach chris is out for a couple of hours I believe 20:43 rach I think there is a bug in the default (and NPL) ones, and we had to make a change 20:43 rach ah - I suspect what you really need is our recently modified templates 19:58 thd chris: I have turned off MARC and turned on the default templates, yet I still fail to be able to locate the screen for assigning items to biblioitems. Would you please help me identify the steps required to get there starting from the admin home page. 16:43 thd I will try the default templates now. I have been primarily working with cataloguing and the OPAC, my area of interest. I have not explored the rest of the interface yet. 16:36 chris could be thd 16:36 chris my job is making sure whenever new work is done on the MARC side, it doenst break the simple interface 16:36 thd chris: Maybe the issue is even further hidden by the NPL templates that I am using. 16:35 chris most of our clients are quite happy to know its being stored as MARC in the background, and that they can export and import .. but they dont want to see MARC .. so I dont play with the MARC interfaces much 16:34 thd chris: So I am discovering. 16:34 chris can=cant 16:34 chris i think that if you are using the MARC interface to koha, then you can do this so easily 16:33 thd kados: are you present? 16:30 chris back 16:27 chris ill bbiab 16:26 chris and it has the side affect of you can group items together, by some arbitrary criteria thats useful to your library 16:25 chris makes searching faster, makes updating faster etc 16:25 chris so if you had 6 items all of the same itemtype, all with the same publisher etc, you didnt need to hold that info in 6 places 16:24 chris and to remove some redundancy 16:23 chris the biblio, biblioitem, item split was my attempt to normalise the data 16:23 thd I go huh when you say group 16:23 chris they nod when you say group .. so group is what we call them :) 16:22 chris but ppl go huh? when you say biblioitem 16:22 thd oh... 16:22 chris a group is a biblioitem 16:22 chris group is the word we call biblioitems 16:22 thd chris: where is group? 16:21 chris a biblio owns biblioitems, biblioitems own items 16:21 chris is the structure 16:21 chris biblio, biblioitems, items 16:21 chris biblioitems=group 16:20 thd chris: I do not find biblioitems.group 16:20 chris when it gets near 10% i usually restart it .. that usually lasts me a week or 2 :) 16:19 chris if you watch top, you can watch firefoxs memory usage slowly creep up :) 16:19 chris so its known to me :) 16:19 chris im not sure, but i get the same thing 16:18 thd chris: yes is that a known bug? 16:18 chris ahh, you use firefox? 16:18 thd chris: My system is thrashing a bit, I think my worst is a leaky Flash implementation on my system. If I leave a page with Flash based ads open too long I eventually start thrashing. 16:12 chris does that make sense? 16:12 chris i can select an item, reassign to an existing group, or i can just select one item, make a change to the group record, and it will split into 2 groups .. the new one with the item i attached, and the old one will have the item i didnt 16:10 chris http://photos.bigballofwax.co.nz/gallery2/v/kohaphotos/moving+items.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 16:08 chris thats if you were acquisitioning a new copy, ill get you a screenshot of moving an existing copy 16:07 chris http://photos.bigballofwax.co.nz/gallery2/v/kohaphotos/koha/acq3.png.html 16:06 chris ill see if i can find a screenshot 16:06 chris id show you, but i dont have any non-live kohas running at the moment and i dont want to make a mess in peoples catalogs 16:05 chris but they are quite simple to make using hte non-marc one 16:05 chris and i have no idea where you make them if you are using the MARC cataloguing interface 16:05 chris biblioitems 16:05 thd chris: where do I make groups and in what table are groups stored? 16:04 chris at least there never used to be :) perhaps the latest MARC work has broken this .. but groups are an arbitrary construct 16:01 chris but there is no reason you cant make a 2 groups with the same itemtype 16:01 chris you can make groups, and move items under each group .. usually you have one group per itemtype, per biblio 15:59 chris http://photos.bigballofwax.co.nz/gallery2/v/kohaphotos/reserve.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 15:59 chris but they dont have to 15:59 chris and groups often correspond to itemtypes 15:58 chris specific groups can be reserved 15:58 chris not quite right 15:58 thd chris: kados had suggested a few minutes ago that specific items could not be reserved but itemtypes could. 15:55 chris 2 secs 15:53 thd chris: where are groups? I missed that part of the discussion. 15:52 chris that was one of hlts requirements 15:52 chris just put it in its own group 15:52 chris you can do that now 15:51 thd kados: You should be able to reserve a specific item. That way you can have a fragile rare copy of a book with the author's own margin notes in a glass case or refrigerated vault, while other ordinary copies circulate freely. 15:45 thd kados: except maybe, as the workaround you are trying to imagine just now to solve your problem for today :-) 15:42 thd Condition should be in the items table why would it ever be in the biblioitems table as an itemtype? 15:34 thd kados: At some point you would run out letters and numbers for all possible subfields from one field in the items table once you start matching condition etc. 15:34 owen How? 15:33 kados maybe? 15:32 kados but you could attach a item to a biblioitem with the special itemtype 15:31 kados hmmm 15:29 owen But it means you couldn't attach a special itemtype to one item 15:29 kados but it doesn't matter 15:28 kados biblioitems 15:28 owen Is itemtype in items or in biblioitems? 15:24 kados owen: what do you think? 15:22 kados that might be a nice workaround in the meantime 15:22 kados (we can't reserve a specific item but we can reserve an itemtype right?) 15:22 kados so when it comes in it doesn't recirculate 15:21 kados and then staff could reserve the item 15:21 kados I'm wondering if we could set a damaged item to itemtype bindery 15:20 kados but as far as I know NPL doesn't use those 15:20 kados erp bindery 15:20 kados Koha includes some special itemtypes like bindry 15:20 kados here's another quandry 14:12 pate hmmm, i guess i'll go back into lurk mode and try to get some real work done. 14:00 kados neat ... I'll have to check that out 13:59 kados sweet ... 13:59 pate on the www.familysearch.org website 13:59 pate now I'm working for the LDS church 13:59 pate moved to Utah 13:59 pate no, i left amazon about a month ago 13:58 kados still at amazon? 13:58 kados :-) 13:58 kados so what's become of you these days? 13:58 kados long time no read ;-) 13:58 kados hey pate ! 13:58 pate hmmm, might as well unlurk a bit today, since i blew my cover last night 13:36 kados owen: so maybe the subfieldid is used to determine what goes with what 13:36 kados owen: is ordering it correctly 13:36 kados owen: seems like select * from marc_subfield_table where tag=952 and bibid='155767' order by subfieldid; 13:35 owen Sorry, everything's grinding to a halt here. I'm not getting anywhere 13:35 kados owen: all the info is there but I can't find a way to associate it 13:34 kados owen: so how do we tell that item number 324620 has barcode 37000000011087 and belongs in ALB from the MARC record? 13:32 kados owen: (too long to paste) 13:32 kados owen: select * from marc_subfield_table where tag=952 and bibid='155767'; 13:31 owen I know they *usually* are. I don't know if they *always* are. 13:30 kados are group number and biblio number always the same? 13:30 owen It's there (that's how it shows up in the link), but it's not printed anywhere on the screen 13:30 kados owen: does the 'view circulation history' link come preformed? 13:29 kados owen: is that variable not available? 13:29 owen It's not even listed on the additem screen 13:29 kados ahh ... I think I see it now ... when you roll over circ history 13:29 owen It's not 13:28 kados and there's barcode 13:28 kados there's "group number" and Biblio number which are the same number 13:28 kados interesting ... I don't see itemnumber listed anywhere on the intranet screen 13:27 kados | 6378682 | 155767 | 952 | 41 | | u | 6 | 326726 | NULL | 13:27 kados | 6307561 | 155767 | 952 | 39 | | u | 6 | 324620 | NULL | 13:27 kados | 6304167 | 155767 | 952 | 4 | | u | 6 | 324493 | NULL | 13:27 kados | 6304382 | 155767 | 952 | 38 | | u | 6 | 324507 | NULL | 13:26 kados +------------+--------+-----+----------+---------------+--------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+ 13:26 kados | subfieldid | bibid | tag | tagorder | tag_indicator | subfieldcode | subfieldorder | subfieldvalue | valuebloblink | 13:26 kados select * from marc_subfield_table where tag=952 and subfieldcode='u' and bibid='155767'; 13:26 owen http://intranet.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/detail.pl?type=intra&bib=155720 13:25 kados owen: is that right? 13:25 kados and the biblionumber is 155720 13:25 kados so the bibid is 155767 13:24 kados grrr 13:24 kados owen: wait ... I think I did it in reverse :-). you gave me a biblionumber 13:24 kados owen: http://intranet.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/detail.pl?type=intra&bib=155673 13:24 kados owen: look ok to you? 13:24 kados there's one entry in marc_subfield_table and one entry in items 13:23 kados so that looks ok I think 13:20 kados oh wait ... bibid is not biblionumber ... dou! 13:20 kados well that's distirbing 13:19 kados | 6301515 | 155720 | 952 | 36 | | u | 7 | 324420 | NULL | 13:18 kados select * from marc_subfield_table where tag=952 and subfieldcode='u' and bibid='155720'limit 0,20; 13:17 kados when I get discriminet working there that should fix some of them 13:17 kados so it's not just chauncey ... the apl connection's got problems ... 13:16 kados I'm having similar problems 13:16 owen Yup, my Putty session just died. 13:16 owen I can't even manage to get the necessary bits through an ssh session to query the deleteditems table. 13:15 owen It must not have gotten through before: I deleted an item from this biblio: 155720 13:14 kados owen: any itemnumbers or titles, etc.? 13:13 owen barely 13:13 kados owen: so ... are you back with us? 13:13 kados yep 13:09 thd Of course, neither MARC21 or UNMARC addresses every issue an ILS needs to manage so creative use of local use fields or some other solution with data external to a MARC record is necessary in those circumstances. 13:05 thd issues; but not for holdings, when they are stored in the bibliographic record. 13:05 thd kados: Paul is not around to answer for himself now but I think he has the idea of finding a common solution for the same problems that occur in UNIMARC and MARC21 using local use fields for issues like holdings in Koha. This allows a common approach for both UNIMARC and MARC21, and therefore, simplifies coding. However, it may not be standards compliant for both flavours. UNIMARC seems to have a more complete solution than MARC21 for some 12:56 kados owen: (the connection that is) 12:56 kados owen: at least partly 12:56 kados owen: should be fixed this weekend 12:56 owen (connection sucks today, I'm moving pretty slow) 12:56 kados owen: titles, etc will work too, but itemnumbers would be easiest 12:56 owen Checking. 12:55 kados owen: ok ... got itemnumbers? 12:54 owen kaods: Yes, from the production machine. 12:54 kados thd: cool ... I'm looking forward to parsing it ;-) 12:53 thd kados: I have the beginnings of a plan but I have not finished my overly long email to you yet. 12:53 kados owen: btw, this may explain why some 'lost' items are showing up in the catalog search 12:53 kados owen: have you deleted any items recently ? if so, we could check to see if they are still in MARC 12:51 kados thd: or stay up at night worrying about whether the whole database is slowly corrupting itself with every transaction ;-) 12:51 kados thd: so we don't have to cower embarassingly when we talk about missing implementation features 12:50 kados thd: but it's time to bring our MARC compatibility up to the next level 12:50 kados thd: and has done a great job of making Koha usable for libraries who need MARC 12:50 kados thd: paul is somewhat of a UNIMARC expert 12:50 kados thd: is that none of us is really a MARC21 expert 12:50 kados thd: the problem we've had sofar 12:49 thd kados: :-) 12:49 kados thd: of course ... but that's supposed to be worse-case-scenerio ;-) 12:48 thd kados: that is the test question for every system. But I imagine even if the MARC information is still orginal, you can painfuly match it all together with the separate item information from an SQL dump :) 12:47 kados owen: any books you've recently deleted? 12:47 kados we should do some tests 12:46 kados (and i don't really care whether holdingbranch is updated ... what I'm most concerned about is whether the static item info is kept in the record 12:46 owen Yeah, I know: imagine the havoc if you reloaded your data and all of a sudden no book was listed as being in the right branch 12:45 kados owen: so the real question is ... if I export my MARC21 stuff out of Koha does it have the up-to-date item info or am I stuck with the original MARC I imported from the beginning ;-) 12:44 owen It's just a missing piece of the puzzle, I think. The process of updating the MARC record in that case wasn't written. Maybe because of neglect, maybe deliberately (how much overhead is there to update the MARC record every time a book is transferred to another branch?) 12:43 kados sorry ... (these columns are making my eyes crazy) ... they have the same bibid and different itemnumbers 12:42 kados both have the same itemnumber 12:42 kados | 363 | 13 | 952 | 18 | | u | 4 | 14 | NULL | 12:42 kados | 359 | 13 | 952 | 17 | | u | 4 | 13 | NULL | 12:42 kados here are two entries: 12:42 thd owen: neglect of what? 12:42 thd :) 12:42 owen thd: neglect 12:41 kados Koha's hendling of MARC21 is far less than ideal ;-) 12:41 thd owen: To what do you attribute those problems? 12:40 owen holdingbranch, for instance. 12:40 owen We have noted problems with updates to the MARC record when modifying item information 12:40 kados the itemnumber is there 12:40 kados so I was wrong 12:39 kados | 16 | 1 | 952 | 10 | | u | 4 | 1 | NULL | 12:39 kados | subfieldid | bibid | tag | tagorder | tag_indicator | subfieldcode | subfieldorder | subfieldvalue | valuebloblink | 12:39 kados select * from marc_subfield_table where tag=952 and subfieldcode='u' limit 0,20; 12:38 kados 952$u 12:38 thd What is the NPL linking for itemnumber? 12:37 kados and if it does, how it knows which entry in 952 to delete 12:37 kados I'm still not sure whether when you delete a given item it deletes it from the MARC record as well 12:37 kados the barcode will match in both if you need to link them 12:37 kados using Koha tables I guess ... 12:37 owen But that's not a big deal 12:37 owen It does make it hard to link to the item detail screen from the MARC detail screen. 12:36 thd kados: How does NPL distinguish itemnumbers? 12:35 kados well it's not really a a problem right? just prevents deep linking using the MARC record 12:34 thd kados: How was that problem dealt with at NPL? 12:34 kados I don't see any itemnumbers in NPL's 952s 12:34 kados at least for MARC21 12:33 kados into the marc record that is 12:33 kados I don't think bulkmarcimport puts itemnumbers in by default 12:30 thd kados: certainly 12:27 kados thd: and paul may read it too ;-) 12:27 kados thd: it would be helpful to have it in the archive to point to 12:26 kados thd: could you post your result to koha-devel explaining the question and the answer ? 12:26 kados thd: so that's actually a very neat way of doing it then ... 12:25 thd 876 $c is cost. I missed cost when searching for price. 876 $t and 852 $t is copy number, but the copy number must match with the itemnumber used by Koha. 12:25 kados thd: so copy number here would be Koha's itemnumber? 12:18 thd http://www.loc.gov/marc/holdings/echditem.html 12:18 thd "multiple 852 fields may exist in the record with related item information in fields 876-878, specifying the copy number to which they apply using subfield $t (Copy number) or the subset using subfield $3 (Materials specified)." 12:15 thd Paul is gone away to the pleasant sea but I have the answer to his price question without consulting autocat. The answer suggests a little revision for my attempted links mapping.