Time  Nick     Message
11:23 owen     Something to be taken up with the developers...
11:12 thd      owen: I know there may be a more efficient way to solve your immediate problem with less effort but this standards compliant method would be reusable even for permanent records and other institutions where people go crazy over MARC standards :)
11:08 thd      owen: 245 $a , 772 $a,  and much else could have been copied by a plugin from the linked record
11:08 owen     Sounds great in theory :)
11:06 thd      owen: In the example above, 772 $w is the control number for the linked record on your system and 245 $n has been added for the issue.
11:04 thd      http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib1390.htm
11:03 thd      772 1#$7unas$aPost boy (London, England)$w(OCoLC)1234567
11:03 thd      245 04$aThe Post boy.$nNumb. 2436, from Thursday December 21 to Saturday December 23, 1710.
11:01 thd      The linking fields are 76X - 79X.  I am trying to fetch an example for you but my system is thrashing a bit.
10:55 thd      This would be a MARC21 compliant solution :)
10:54 thd      So you would get all the bibliographic information that was the same for every issue of your serial copied from the other record and you would add the issue and holdings data.
10:52 thd      A well designed 77X plugin should copy required information from a linked record and then you would only need to modify a few subfields in 3 or 4 fields
10:51 owen     Can you elaborate?
10:50 thd      I imagine there is some functionality one could borrow from the UNIMARC side
10:49 thd      owen: the ideal way to address the disposable serials issue is with a 772 linking field
10:48 owen     yes
10:48 thd      owen: are you present?
10:45 thd       kados: Do you mean an additional performance hit for logging even if batched?
10:45 kados    thd: maybe for logging too ... but either way you still have some performance hit
10:44 kados    thd: I think batch processing is a good idea
10:44 thd      I saw a suggestion about batch processing cataloguing on the koha or koha-dev list recently
10:42 thd      Why can't you work around the logging performance issue with batch processing?
10:41 kados    yep ... which there's no way we can!
10:41 thd      mapping is the key to interoperable systems when you cannot force everyone to adopt one standard
10:41 kados    agreed
10:40 thd      s/their/there
10:40 thd      kados: I love mapping, although, their is a bit of unpleasantness about most such tasks
10:39 kados    yep ... we can easily do that with yaz-proxy
10:39 thd      I was thinking more of the issue of converting queries against the catalgoue to queries against the other outside resources which are mostly z39.50
10:38 kados    and it's not like it's hard ... index data has already done the hard part
10:38 kados    I'd rather be way ahead of the pack
10:38 kados    it will take a few years
10:37 kados    but that's the way of things
10:37 thd      Very forward thinking :)
10:37 kados    CQL may not be widely adopted
10:37 kados    in addition to Z39.50
10:37 kados    well I'm going to propose we use Zebra's SRW functionality to expose our records for that protocol
10:36 thd      CQL is designed for SRW which has very few targets currently relative to Z39.50
10:36 kados    and I like '+stephenson -neal'
10:35 kados    and "once upon a time" phrase searching
10:35 kados    but also allow author:neal stephenson
10:35 kados    I'm thinking we use CQL for sure
10:35 kados    I agree
10:35 thd      Google does not necessarily have the ideal solution
10:34 kados    yep ... so we have both
10:34 thd      A form allows you to change the underlying syntax without bothering the user about what the syntax actually is
10:34 kados    like google
10:34 kados    from web search engines
10:33 kados    we're taking our cue about future directions in searching
10:33 kados    but the idea is
10:33 kados    thus we have 'simple' and 'advanced' search pages
10:33 kados    yep
10:32 thd      Both methods should be provided for
10:32 kados    is to allow direct syntax entry into a single form
10:32 kados    thd: but the direction that most engines are moving in
10:32 thd      Therefore, the user does not have to learn the syntax, only the form
10:32 kados    thd: at least for the advanced page
10:31 kados    thd: hmmm ... maybe ...
10:31 thd      CQL or whatever search syntax is used should be wrapped in a form
10:30 kados    thd: what's up
10:30 kados    thd: yep
10:29 thd      kados: are you still present?
09:28 hdl      But what you said answered my question.
09:28 hdl      should I hide Log management in C4 modules, or leave it to the top level.
09:28 kados    hdl: (though it would be useful to see _who_ deleted something they shouhldn't have ;-))
09:28 kados    hdl: because it may slow down adding/deleting things at NPL ;-)
09:28 kados    hdl: I think that Log.pm (if I understand what it is) should only be used if the library wants to use it
09:27 kados    hdl: I still don't understand the question
09:26 hdl      kados : yes I read it.
09:26 hdl      i.e. same operation logging and adding/editing/deleting.... Which would lead to log.pm called in Biblio.pm for instance.
09:26 hdl      No I mean : as soon as you have a database mod, you are ensured that dataentry is done to the table.
09:24 kados    hdl: did you see my recent post about paul and your plans for multiple branch support?
09:24 kados    because it will likely impact performance
09:23 kados    I think there should be a system preference for turning the Log on and off
09:23 kados    and by 'atomic' do you mean 'automatic;?
09:23 hdl      ok. I am doing a Log.pm. and use it.
09:23 kados    maybe? ... we can discuss this later
09:22 kados    and we can put the Stats.pm stuff in there eventually
09:22 hdl      I take it.
09:22 hdl      ok.
09:22 kados    how about Log.pm?
09:22 hdl      And We should be DBM independant.
09:21 hdl      But I don't know...
09:21 kados    inright
09:21 hdl      Maybe Mysql has a log facility.
09:21 hdl      I insert a new line in the database.
09:20 hdl      Yes and no. Its purpose is not stats, but monitor.
09:20 kados    what is this functionality called in SQL?
09:20 kados    hmmm ... that sounds very similar to the statistics stuff
09:20 hdl      Which name in this case.
09:19 hdl      timestamp, userid, module, action and parameters are logged
09:19 kados    that is used specifically for monitoring the system
09:19 kados    maybe we need a new module
09:19 kados    I'm not sure about which module it should be coded in ..
09:19 hdl      In a new table : action_logs
09:18 hdl      Yes.
09:18 kados    so what you're proposing is a way to keep track of modifications (adding and deleting) of records in Koha?
09:18 hdl      s/ewo/two/
09:17 hdl      disctinct.
09:17 kados    hmmm ...
09:17 hdl      Or do you prefer the ewo operations to be disticnt.
09:17 hdl      you also added a logentry
09:17 hdl      That is, as soon as You have added a biblio.
09:16 hdl      Do we want these operations to be atomic ?
09:16 hdl      Second question that goes along is :
09:16 hdl      First question is : Where do things should be commited ? i.e. In C4::Miantainance, as I previously did, or in C4::Koha, or else ???
09:15 kados    ok ... what does that mean exactly
09:14 hdl      We are trying to make a sort of base modifications watch.
09:14 kados    sure
09:14 hdl      I have a question :
09:14 kados    just me musing about query syntax ;-)
09:14 hdl      ok.
09:14 kados    don't think so ;-)
09:14 kados    hi hdl
09:14 hdl      Have I missed sthg ?
09:13 hdl      hi kados
08:41 owen     I think we need to look at how to support Google-style queries, with quotes deliniating phrases at the very least
08:32 kados    to perform the actual queries on the index
08:31 kados    I'm still not clear on how to use CQL with Zebra
08:31 kados    and use CQL in the background for the server interactions
08:30 kados    so maybe our objective is to support multiple syntax types for input
08:30 kados    as is - and +
08:29 kados    I do agree with MJ that the use of : as a marker is nice
08:28 kados    the nice thing about CQL is the learning curve for the actual queries isn't that steep
08:26 kados    or 'intitle:koha site:liblime.com'
08:26 kados    like how many folks know that they can do 'inurl:liblime.com koha' in a google search?
08:26 kados    with any advanced search syntax there is some learning curve
08:25 kados    the thing is
08:25 kados    and of course CQL will accept straight keywords with no qualifiers
08:24 kados    or 'title=cryptonomicon'
08:24 kados    patron's won't have a hard time doing 'author=neal stephenson'
08:24 kados    but that's not actually true
08:24 kados    yea
08:24 owen     The last time it was discussed people were distracted by the idea that the patrons would have to learn it to be able to do a search.
08:24 kados    but when you dive into it it's fairly straightforward
08:23 kados    because the site is fairly academic
08:23 kados    I think folks have been intimidated by it
08:23 kados    http://www.loc.gov/z3950/agency/zing/cql/
08:23 kados    I've been looking at CQL a bit more
08:23 kados    yes to the first no to the second
08:22 owen     kados: like a standard contruction syntax that will define how ANDs and ORs etc. translate to SQL?
08:12 kados    I think we need to adopt a syntax for searches
08:10 kados    I can imagine ;-)
08:10 owen     It's a tough process.  It's sometimes hard to decide what should stay in and what shouldn't
08:10 kados    yep ... looks very nice
08:09 owen     I've got a stripped-down stylesheet attached, just to make it easier on the eyes.
08:09 kados    very nice
08:09 owen     I've got most of the member pages done
08:08 owen     That's what's on 101 right now
08:08 kados    sweet
08:08 owen     I've been working on the programmer templates
08:07 owen     Hi kados
08:07 kados    morning owen
01:08 Genji    gone now though.
00:26 Genji    thd: yup
21:11 thd      Genji: are you there?
16:59 thd      Ryanbisd, now disconnected, needs to change everything in the items table to 852
16:59 tim      I guess I'm outta here for the day.  Thanks again.
16:57 tim      I just looked at the records that Ryanbisd showed us a while back and it looks like all of his item info is in 852.
16:57 thd      tim:  :)
16:56 tim      thd: Thanks for the help
16:56 thd      Ryanbisd: I understand the error now
16:52 Ryanbisd if thats the only error I have.. .would it really matter?
16:52 Ryanbisd i changed it back to 952
16:51 owen     I don't know
16:51 thd      owen: Is there a setting that must also be changed in parallel for changing the default MARC field and subfield value for items.barcode?
16:50 Ryanbisd because I cant have an itemtype set to 800's
16:50 Ryanbisd i put it in the 'search also' box
16:49 thd      Ryanbisd changed the barcode setting in items.barcode form 952 $p to 852 $p.
16:48 Ryanbisd go down to the section P... and see if that will work
16:48 Ryanbisd pw is temp123
16:48 Ryanbisd username is kohaadmin
16:47 Ryanbisd http://lib-intra.burlesonisd.net/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?op=add_form&tagfield=952&frameworkcode=
16:47 Ryanbisd no. in my records its set to 852p
16:47 tim      So that's where the info is in your records?
16:47 Ryanbisd but, under the 952p I have it set to also look in 852p
16:47 owen     we have item fields mapped to 956: homebranch (b), holdingbranch (d), barcode (p), price (r), dateaccessioned (v), notforloan (y) and itemnumber (u)
16:46 Ryanbisd I have it set in the 900's now..
16:46 tim      Ryanbisd: do you mean all of your copy info is set to the 900's or the Koha defaults are set to the 900's?
16:46 Ryanbisd right?
16:46 Ryanbisd under marc subfield structure
16:43 Ryanbisd thereis... I think i remember seeing it..
16:43 Ryanbisd is there anyway that I can have my barcode set to a 900 field, but read from an 800?
16:42 tim      Ryanbisd: I had the same problem.  I had to move or copy infromation from field to field to get things set right.
16:41 Ryanbisd but all the items are set to 900's
16:41 Ryanbisd because my barcode is 852p
16:41 Ryanbisd im getting that error, but I dont know what I am susposed to do.
16:40 Ryanbisd
16:40 Ryanbisd and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
16:40 Ryanbisd be mapped to the same tag,
16:40 Ryanbisd item fields ALL items fields MUST :
16:40 owen     I'm not sure what you mean, Ryanbisd
16:39 thd      tim: http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/vhosts/examples.html
16:38 Ryanbisd owen: I have to define a value for every feild in the items tag?
16:37 Ryanbisd cool..
16:37 thd      Ryanbisd: To view the records yourself you could exprt them as text files with MARC Magician or try http://marcpm.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/converter.cgi .
16:36 owen     The "10 (items)" refers to the item edit screen
16:36 owen     The tabs are in the MARC edit screen
16:36 Ryanbisd and what is the 10 (items) field?
16:35 Ryanbisd what "tab" is it talking about?
16:35 Ryanbisd
16:35 Ryanbisd and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
16:35 Ryanbisd be mapped to the same tag,
16:35 Ryanbisd item fields ALL items fields MUST :
16:35 thd      tim: virtual hosts can do either.
16:34 tim      thd: I'll look into that more.
16:34 thd      tim: I have not upgraded yet because of compatiblity issues with other software for any system I have.
16:34 Ryanbisd how do you view them to see that information?
16:34 tim      thd: I was thinking the virtusl host thing only did stuff like koha.library.org instead of www.library.org/koha/ like I was trying to do.
16:33 tim      thd: I'm using apache 2.
16:33 thd      Ryanbisd: If your information is unchanged since yesterday, then your barcodes certainly were in 852 $p
16:32 thd      tim: If you only have an IP address for Apache to work with then you need to differentialte virtual hosts by port number in Apache 1.2
16:30 thd      tim: mixing an IP address and a directory name does not work with Apache 1.x virtual hosts.
16:29 thd      tim: One thing that does not work in Apache 1.x is a virtual host where \d = some number you have something like \d\d\d\d.\d\d\d\d.\d\d\d\d.\d\d\d\d/opac
16:28 Ryanbisd www.bsaclaims.com/~ryan/marctest.001
16:27 Ryanbisd rach, can you look at a sample of my marc records and see if my barcode is 852$p?
16:26 thd      tim: virtual hosts are used for subdirectory mappings for what you want, although, symlinks could have the same effect.
16:23 thd      Ryanbisd: Remember that 900a does not exist in the default MARC framework you have to create that yourself unless you remap its value before importing.
16:23 tim      thd: No problem.  I was just checking to see if anyone could suggest a way to make Koha load from a subdirectory instead of through a port or virtual host.
16:21 Ryanbisd and the call number is at 900a
16:21 Ryanbisd see, I was told that my barcodes in the imported MR are at 852p
16:21 thd      tim: I do not understand the details of your configuration well enough to give you a good suggestion about how to set up external access on your own.  I would not want to suggest something that might redirect services from your production system.
16:21 rach     yep
16:20 Ryanbisd the ones im importing
16:20 Ryanbisd ohh... from my old marc records
16:20 rach     then I think you need to make sure you're mapping the itemtpyes from any existing data to that field
16:20 rach     yep - so you need one itemtype setup
16:19 Ryanbisd
16:19 Ryanbisd and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
16:19 Ryanbisd be mapped to the same tag,
16:19 Ryanbisd item fields ALL items fields MUST :
16:19 Ryanbisd ad its this last one
16:18 rach     sometimes it's the simple things that trip you up
16:18 rach     it should match the ones in your data :-)
16:18 Ryanbisd d@mn.. i feel like a retard
16:18 rach     yep
16:18 Ryanbisd so like, I define Book... or Video
16:17 Ryanbisd doh... stupid me..
16:17 rach     so "neither"
16:17 rach     to get rid of that particular message, I'd set one up in the itemtypes prevferences bit
16:17 thd      Ryanbisd: You have to create at least one item type.  That should be part of the default install but is not.
16:16 Ryanbisd is that in links koha Marc DB or in biblo framework?
16:16 Ryanbisd I dont think so
16:16 thd      rach: no or that message would not be returning
16:16 Ryanbisd no..
16:15 rach     do you have any itemtypes set up?
16:15 Ryanbisd I keep getting this msg when i do marc check
16:15 Ryanbisd itemtypes table empty the itemtypes table is empty. It must contain at least 1 value
16:15 Ryanbisd
16:15 Ryanbisd and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
16:15 Ryanbisd be mapped to the same tag,
16:15 Ryanbisd item fields ALL items fields MUST :
16:14 tim      Them are the ISP folks who do our DNS.
16:14 thd      tim: Who is 'them'?
16:13 tim      I'll probably do that anyway.  I was trying to think of ways to make it so I don't have to have someone else do something before I get it to work, but I'm sure the people who deal with it will handle things pretty quick.
16:12 tim      If I'm going to bother registering a domain name I'll just add a virtual name and have them set that up on our DNS.
16:07 thd      tim: you could register a domain name for testing purposes or just use the external IP address for the system with port forwarding.
16:06 tim      It's just an internal IP for now.
16:05 tim      No.  It won't till it's closer to ready.
16:05 thd      tim: Does server that you are testing Koha on have domain name services directed at its IP address??
16:04 tim      I don't have everything I need in yet and every time I test something I find a mistake in what I have so far.
15:58 Ryanbisd what stage are you at, and how long do you think the conversion will take total?
15:58 Ryanbisd just wondering
15:58 Ryanbisd cool...
15:57 tim      I'm implimentinng Koha in our library.
15:57 tim      The current one is a turnkey thing with limeted acdess.
15:57 Ryanbisd tim: do you work for katipo, or are you implimenting koha also?
15:56 tim      Or at least I do on the one we'll be using when we start running Koha.
15:55 tim      Yeah, I do.
15:53 thd      time: Do you not have access to the Apache configuration files on that server?
15:47 tim      Yeah
15:47 thd      tim: Do you run your own server for the outside now?
15:13 tim      That's ok for the intranet, but we want people to be able to access the opac from outside and we don't manage our own DNS.
15:12 tim      thd: So far I'm just finding how to put them on different ports like I already have and use virtual hosts, but that looks like it would require DNS changes for people to access it.
14:48 thd      s/named/name
14:48 thd      tim: check the documentation for your version of Apache under the virtual hosts section.   Study the examples page.  You want a named based virtual host.
14:36 tim      Of course that doesn't mean I'll figure it out. :)
14:36 tim      I just loaded the apache docs.  Shoulda done that before I asked.
14:35 shaun    yes - I have the answers, right here, but kados will give you a less hacky solution no doubt
14:35 tim      I thought you were doing something like http://search.library.org
14:35 owen     Joshua (kados) has set it up for us.
14:34 owen     Tim, you might want to ask that on the Koha list, because I know it can be done.
14:32 tim      and mor important /opac or /search or something like that.
14:32 tim      Does anyone here know how I could get it so I can use something like http://www.library.org/intranet instead of http://www.library.org:8080 ?
13:19 Ryanbisd we are at a very early stage in the koha development here..... so we are learning as we go.
13:19 Ryanbisd cool, I will try that then....