Time  Nick     Message
10:44 thd      Genji: are you still there?
10:35 thd      Ryanbisd: The problem you might have attempting to only purge data at this point is that you maybe unable to purge some data because it does not have a properly identified key unless you use the database directly and know exactly where to find all the data.  Unpurged data might cause strange problems.
10:30 thd      Ryanbisd: Just be sure that "System Administration : MARC Check" is good before importing again.  Also, if you make configuration changes that might affect database integrity, then it seems prudent to use MARC Check before working with data.
10:22 thd      Ryanbisd: If you do not find an obvious source of the error, I think it might be less time and trouble to delete the database and start again from the point where I imagine your are in your tests.  The warning about not doing anything without passing MARC check is very strong and just maybe you will have invalid data trapped somewhere in the database otherwise, but I have no detailed knowledge to use as a basis of judgement.
10:02 Ryanbisd not just the data, but the whole DB, and rebuild it
10:02 Ryanbisd should I delete the DB and start over?
10:02 Ryanbisd I never figured out what the errors meant to change
09:43 thd      Ryanbisd: Do you have everything reloaded in Koha?
07:44 mason    hi ryan, whatcha up to?
07:32 Ryanbisd mornin guys
22:14 ryanbisd whats up guys
21:50 jo       i'm typingin hlt for you
21:50 jo       hiya
21:50 chris    yep jo
21:50 jo       Chris - are you about.
19:47 thd      unfortunately I have to depart a few minutes ago
19:46 Genji    so.. it would be like.... shelfname, category, barcode, previous, next
19:46 Genji    might want to create a totally new table, though. one with pointers to previous and next shelf.
19:19 Genji    hmm... could be done.
19:13 thd      Genji: Would need a search by shelf feature with an forward and previous link for adjacent shelves.
19:11 Genji    so, yes, the physical shelves will be remotely browsable.
19:10 thd      Genji: Browsing shelves remotely would be nice.  There are may ways what you have done could be extended for novel features.
19:08 Genji    ya. we have two rooms in our library. the Meditation room (hardly gets used for meditation anymore) and the hall.
19:06 thd      Genji: I had seen that origianlly, It just confused me when I saw room istead of shelf.
19:05 Genji    its where the callnumber field would show, if it did have acallnumber.
19:05 Genji    err.. its in the location field....
19:04 thd      Genji: yes it had but it did not seem like a shelf designation so I was confused
19:03 Genji    the second item should show a location in brackets.
19:03 thd      Genji: What should I see at the URL?
19:02 Genji    hmmm..... interesting.. a visual map....
19:02 Genji    for most koha libraries, they use the itemtype as a physical representation.
19:02 thd      Genji: a map of the shelving system keyed to the items gives you an exact location that can be signified with a mark
19:01 Genji    k. take a look at the url again.
18:58 thd      Genji: I read abbout someone hacking that feature onto an Innovative Interfaces ILS
18:57 Genji    oh.. hold on. wierd.... hmm... gimme one second.
18:57 thd      Genji: a shelf barcode could suport a map of eactly where to find the book
18:56 thd      Genji: Yes I looked but, I did not know how to identify what you had added from the labels at that URL
18:56 Genji    hmm... anyway.. why would an opac user need to know the shelf barcode? They wouldn't really.
18:55 Genji    did you look?
18:55 thd      Genji: I assume the shelf barcode is not visible there
18:52 Genji    haven't finished the feature yet. but on my copy, proof of concept is http://opac.genjimoto.is-a-geek.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=2979
18:49 thd      Genji: did you change the templates so that they appear to the user?
18:44 Genji    which is a number that goes to bookshelf.shelfnumber
18:44 Genji    also... items has items.physicalshelf
18:43 Genji    in bookshelf.barcode
18:43 thd      Genji: where is the shelf barcode stored?
18:43 Genji    So, you have this big file, with shelf barcode, then books following it.
18:43 Genji    Stocktaking barcode scanner, you scan the bookshelf barcode, then the books... bookshelf barcode, then the books.
18:42 Genji    its for stocktaking/loading books onto bookshelves.
18:37 thd      Genji: with the shelf barcode for Koha
18:36 thd      Genji: what was the new feature you were implementing?
18:34 Genji    oooh.. looks easy.
18:30 Genji    guess i might have to use a browser push for importing stocktake data.
18:28 Genji    so.. nevermind.
18:28 Genji    In this case the URL cannot be longer than 2048 bytes."
18:28 Genji    of data that can be sent is limited by the maximum length of a URL.
18:28 Genji    When using the get method to send data to an HTTP server, the amount
18:27 Genji    yup
18:27 thd      Genji: are you aking an HTML question?
18:25 Genji    indradg: know the maximum length of characters a textarea can hold?
18:23 Genji    anyone know the maximum length of characters a textarea can hold?
18:22 Genji    its 11:22.
18:22 Genji    morning all.
18:11 ryanbisd so..
18:11 ryanbisd oriented
18:11 ryanbisd and I have NO idea about anything library oritnets
18:11 ryanbisd Im fairly new to linux, and all that encompasses that..
18:10 ryanbisd I know...
18:07 thd      ryansbisd: best to supercool your brain before extra strain :)
18:05 ryanbisd my brain is super fried
18:05 ryanbisd no questions rigt now...
18:05 ryanbisd im just hangin out in here...
18:05 thd      ryanbisd: yes
18:01 ryanbisd "guess whos back.... back again"
17:06 rach     :-)
17:04 kados    oops ;-)
17:04 kados    msg rach so that's about 1,600 US eh?
17:03 Ryanbisd thanks guys
17:03 Ryanbisd continue this tomorrow.....
17:02 Ryanbisd alright... we are out for today!!!
17:02 thd      Ryanbisd: I believe that means items table.
17:02 Ryanbisd what is the items tab?
17:02 thd      Ryanbisd: If you imported with an invalid set of tables the results may be very unpredictable and it may be easier to drop the database and start fresh than fix an error that cannot be fixed but I do not know.
17:00 thd      Ryanbisd: It seems to be complaining of an improper mapping for itemnumber in the items table.
16:59 thd      Ryanbisd: I do not know what happens if you import without a validated set of tables.
16:58 Ryanbisd what does that error mean exactly?
16:58 Ryanbisd alright...
16:57 Ryanbisd alright...
16:57 thd      Ryanbisd: you should hve no errors before you import any records or things will not work right
16:56 Ryanbisd i had accidently changed it to nothing earlier
16:56 Ryanbisd I changed the biblonumber back to the same as the biblioitemnumber
16:55 thd      Ryanbisd: What did you change it back to?   MARC check still shows the same error message for your system.
16:54 Ryanbisd its importing the records
16:53 Ryanbisd because I changed that back
16:53 Ryanbisd are you talking about the biblonumber?
16:53 thd      Ryanbisd: that is from MARC Checks in System Administration
16:52 thd          * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
16:52 thd          * be mapped to the same tag,
16:52 thd      Ryanbisd: item fields  	ALL items fields MUST :
16:52 Ryanbisd yeah, we did
16:52 tim      Ryanbisd: did you use the d option with bulkmarcimport.pl?  That clears your records and starts fresh.
16:52 Ryanbisd ?
16:52 thd      Ryanbisd: you have an error in your configuration
16:51 tim      Thanks.  I'll look into that.
16:51 thd      tim: yes
16:50 Ryanbisd that should put in the added barcode info, right?
16:50 tim      If it is.  It looks like I already have it, so all I need is to figure out how to use it.
16:50 Ryanbisd im just re-running bulkmarcimport.pl
16:49 tim      I'll look it up.  Is it the MARC::lint perl module you're talking about?
16:48 tim      And since it's 8 or 9 years after the fact....
16:48 tim      But it was a free retro-conversion, so I guess we can't complain a whole lot.
16:47 tim      Ours were supposed to be valid copy catalgued records.
16:46 thd      tim: I only have valid copy catalogued records for my use so far, and therefore, I have not had to worry about that issue yet :)
16:45 tim      I just need to figure out how to use it :)
16:45 tim      It's just a test system, so I still have time.
16:44 thd      tim: you should have used MARC lint first.
16:44 tim      I think these were the recordsthat were done by someone else to get us automated.
16:44 tim      The 008 tags were a mess before the import.  Mostly a bunch of | characters causing Koha to start a new tag.
16:43 thd      tim: Do you mean that your tags were a mess in your source records or that you added 008 to the Koha MARC framework and then the import went wrong for 008?
16:41 tim      Our 008 tags were a mess and it made multiple 008 tags for a lot of the records with nothing in them.
16:41 tim      All this talk about fixed tags made me look for what was put in Koha.
16:39 thd      s/preferences/administration
16:39 thd      Ryanbisd: had you checked whether system preferences MARC check was iwthout errors, before running any action?
16:34 Ryanbisd pw is temp123
16:34 Ryanbisd theusername is kohaadmin
16:34 Ryanbisd if you want to take a look at our settings in koha you can go to lib-intra.burlesonisd.net
16:33 Ryanbisd thats what we are getting
16:33 SteveL   .DBD::mysql::db do failed: You have an error in your SQL syntax near '' at line 1 at ./rebuildnonmarc.pl line 98.
16:33 SteveL   DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Column 'biblionumber' cannot be null at /home/ryan/koha-2.2.2/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1522.
16:33 tim      rebuildnonmarc.pl will just move things around in what's already loaded on your system.
16:32 tim      bulkmarcimport.pl will increment bilionumber and itemnumber for you.
16:32 Ryanbisd should I do that on the import file, or what?
16:31 thd      Ryanbisd: rebuildnonmarc sounds right and tim must know.  I have never tried.
16:31 Ryanbisd and, will that put it in to my inventory?
16:30 Ryanbisd should I try that rebuildmarc.pl?
16:30 owen     I haven't used bulkmarcimport myself, but I assume it must have to
16:30 thd      owen: ... where itemnumber would be set to 1?
16:28 thd      owen: Does Koha automatically assign an incremented value for biblionumber and itemnumber when importing with bulkmarcimport ?
16:28 tim      rebuildnonmarc.pl should fix things up after the change shouldn't it?
16:26 Ryanbisd but I can re-import them if need be
16:26 Ryanbisd well, just the ones that im using right now, yes
16:26 thd      Ryanbisd: Have you already imported all your records?
16:25 Ryanbisd or should that info just appear now?
16:25 thd      owen: :)
16:25 Ryanbisd do I need to reimport the marcs
16:25 Ryanbisd alright, I have barcode set for 852p...
16:25 owen     I'm not sure how those numbers add up, though, because they would imply that we have a lot of biblios with no items attached.
16:23 owen     Delete
16:23 thd      Owen: do you delete the records for the recycled serial issues or just hide them from view?
16:21 owen     When I count(biblionumber) from biblio I get 146685
16:21 Ryanbisd now that I look at them
16:21 thd      owen: how many separate records do you have for circa 300,000 items?
16:21 Ryanbisd actually, I think they do
16:20 Ryanbisd no, I dont belive so.
16:19 thd      Ryanbisd: you need to discover how your system treats multiple copies of the same bibliographic manifestation.  Do they each have their own MARC record?
16:16 thd      Ryanbisd: You should do what NPL may not have done, and define the leader as 000 and fixed fields 001-008 in the MARC framework to preserve and use that information.
16:16 Ryanbisd do I need to rerum bulmarcimport?
16:15 Ryanbisd I have my barcodes set to 852p in kohamarclinks.pl
16:14 owen     300k items, not records
16:13 Ryanbisd ahahah
16:13 Ryanbisd so, what does that me that I do now?
16:13 Ryanbisd sweet...
16:13 thd      owen:  Is circa 350,000 records correct?
16:12 thd      owen: no, I just imagined that with circa 350,000 records you would have added to the framework to preserve the information in Koha at the time of conversion.
16:11 thd      owen: there is a lot of useful and required information in those fields.  Koha should be exploiting that information not making it vanish, although, the user never needs to see it in raw format.
16:10 owen     was that a quiz? :)
16:10 owen     Okay.
16:09 thd      owen: It vanished into the ether or stayed in the backup set of data from prior to the Koha conversion if you did not add fields 000-008 to your MARC framework.
16:09 owen     I'm not a cataloging expert, so it wasn't on my radar
16:05 owen     I don't know
16:03 thd      owen: what happened to your leader and 001-008 fixed field information after conversion to Koha?
16:02 owen     Spydus.  Now called Civica, I think?
16:01 thd      owen: What system was NPL using before Koha?
16:01 thd      Ryanbisd:  Your barcodes are in 852 $p
16:00 owen     Got me.
15:59 thd      owen: Why were the leader and the other fixed fields left out of the default MARC framework for Koha?
15:59 Ryanbisd that was the barcode for Woog, Adam
15:59 Ryanbisd t0060186
15:58 thd      Ryanbisd: You should define the leader as field 000 for the MARC framework and fixed fields 001 to 008 make best use of your records losslessly in Koha.  A default should already be provided but it is not.
15:57 owen     Ryanbisd: the lack of barcode/item information in detail.pl is a bug in the NPL template
15:53 thd      Ryanbisd: what is the barcode for one of those appearing in the set you exported?
15:45 Ryanbisd but havent been altered.
15:45 Ryanbisd they came from marc magician
15:43 thd      Ryanbisd: Have these records been modified by MARC Magician or are they direct from Follett?
15:41 Ryanbisd those are 10 marc records
15:41 thd      owen: Ryanbisd asked a related question when you were disconnected
15:40 Ryanbisd opps... 001
15:40 Ryanbisd www.bsaclaims.com/~ryan/marctest.oo1
15:40 owen     Are you thinking of anything in particular?
15:40 owen     Sometimes the variables are made available by the script, but not included in the template.  Other times the script and template both must be changed.
15:39 thd      owen: yes
15:39 owen     Are you talking about pages like detail.pl?
15:37 thd      owen: what files need to be modified for changing what fields appera for various views?  Is it just the *.pl file for a particular view?
15:33 thd      Ryanbisd: If you export a record and inspect where the barcode appears, then you should know as long as the barcode is exported.
15:32 tim      Just a small sample
15:32 Ryanbisd yeah.. .hold up
15:32 tim      Is there somplace on the net where you can put some records so we can grab the file and take a look at it?
15:31 Ryanbisd i would have to know the field it was stored in first..
15:31 thd      Ryanbisd: did you find no export option in MARC magician to put the barcode in a field and subfield of you choice?
15:30 Ryanbisd its shows up, but it doesnt show up in the tag
15:30 Ryanbisd i have no idea where the barcode tag is...
15:29 thd      oops that was the call number
15:28 thd      Ryanbisd said that barcodes were in 900 $a on the Follet system.
15:28 tim      Yeah.  You need to add the subfields to a tab.
15:26 thd      Owen said in answer to changing which fields appear in the MARC editor that, "You have to set the 'tab' value for the tag's subfields in marc_subfield_structure.pl."
15:26 tim      You'd want to map that tag to items.barcode
15:25 tim      Where's the barcode tag in your records?
15:24 Ryanbisd yeah... I can go thru the whole list in marc magician, and find barcode.
15:23 tim      If I'm understanding the question.
15:23 tim      But I think you'd need to change the MARC mappings.
15:22 tim      thd: I'm just finally getting somewhere with this.  I still don't know much about making any changes.
15:21 thd      tim: to see fields hidden by default, which files should be modified?
15:21 Ryanbisd if I knew what template it was, it would show up..
15:21 Ryanbisd thats what it is...
15:20 thd      tim: what file does the user have to modify for a different functionality in Koha for the MARC view and other views?
15:19 tim      Athena won't show the tags used for copy information in MARC view.  I just figured with both acting that way that it was a feature.
15:18 thd      Ryanbisd: I think that is a template issue.  Owen is disconnected, too bad.
15:17 Ryanbisd but, its all comming from the same darn file
15:17 Ryanbisd but in the marc view it desnt show it..
15:17 Ryanbisd i dont understand why it shows the barcode info in the main view...
15:16 Ryanbisd You wanna look at my marc records??  hahah
15:15 thd      Ryanbisd: 001 could be used for the biblioitemnumber field in the biblioitems table instead of the Koha default 090 $d.
15:11 thd      Ryanbisd: you should be sure that the Koha MARC framework includes any field you have in your records so that Koha has the information.  You may need to add the fixed fields 001 to 008.  They are not part of the default Koha MARC framework yet.
15:09 Ryanbisd yup
15:08 thd      Ryanbisd: Do your records have a unique control number in field 001?
15:00 thd      Ryanbisd: Add tag is at the bottom of the page.
14:59 thd      Ryanbisd: After following the link for MARC structure you would be at http://"your base admin address"/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marctagstructure.pl?frameworkcode=
14:57 thd      Ryanbisd: Edit the biblio framework from system preferences : biblio framework
14:54 thd      Ryanbisd: 9XX are local use fields.  900 is not defined by default in Koha.
14:54 thd      Ryanbisd: You would need to edit the MARC framework and add 900 $a
14:53 thd      Ryanbisd: You need someone more familiar with Koha than I to distinguish the use of dewey and classification in Koha.
14:52 Ryanbisd I see that, but there is no option to 900 a
14:52 thd      Ryanbisd: Dewey has nothing by default for Koha, however, classification is mapped to 942 $k
14:49 thd      Ryanbisd: There is more to consider than just the call number and barcode.  You need a biblionumber and biblioitem as a key.  I have not done a system conversion for Koha yet so I am not the best one to advise about all the issues.
14:49 Ryanbisd when I go to dewey, it doesnt have that as an option.
14:49 Ryanbisd alright, so, where in koha do i go to add 900.a
14:47 thd      Ryanbisd: Check each of the tables at http://"your base admin address"/cgi-bin/koha/admin/koha2marclinks.pl to be sure the data you will import matches or edit the field in Koha to remap to whatever you import into Koha.
14:45 Ryanbisd im tyring to see if it will export it to 942 $k
14:45 Ryanbisd yes
14:45 thd      Ryanbisd: Is the complete call number in 900 $a ?
14:43 Ryanbisd alright, our marc records set the dewey up to 900a
14:40 thd      Ryanbisd: For default Koha behaviour, call number to 942 $k and map barcode to 952 $p.
14:38 Ryanbisd im not sure, hold on
14:37 thd      Ryanbisd: do you have the option of mapping the information to a MARC field and subfield for export
14:36 Ryanbisd sorry, marc magician
14:36 thd      Ryanbisd: Are you now referring to Koha or MARC Magician?
14:35 thd      Ryanbisd: there is a selection box for choosing the table at that URL above.
14:34 Ryanbisd but, when I click on the records it doesnt show this information in the actual marc record
14:34 thd      Ryanbisd: the biblioitems table has the call number.
14:33 Ryanbisd now.. from the main view it shoes the call number and barcode..
14:33 Ryanbisd alright... I have my Marc DB up in Marc Magician.
14:33 thd      Ryanbisd: that shows you the items table mappings to MARC
14:31 Ryanbisd what do you want me to look for there?
14:28 thd      Ryanbisd: look at system preferences : MARC links : items, http://"your base admin address"/cgi-bin/koha/admin/koha2marclinks.pl
14:28 Ryanbisd cool...
14:27 thd      Ryanbisd: barcode is 952 $p by default in Koha
14:27 thd      Ryanbisd: While you were diconnected you missed 2 ansers I had given you to earlier questions.
14:26 Ryanbisd Im importing the records now... once thats done I will let you know what the info says
14:26 Ryanbisd it didnt say... Im assuming how to read the records.... it was used just during the initial setup
14:23 thd      Ryanbisd: Is this for the source file or the destination file?
14:23 Ryanbisd 852 qith 1 part call number
14:23 Ryanbisd mandarin EZ transfer
14:23 Ryanbisd library world 2.2
14:22 Ryanbisd library pro 2.2
14:22 Ryanbisd unison
14:22 Ryanbisd 5.0
14:22 Ryanbisd follet plus 4.1
14:22 Ryanbisd dynix
14:22 Ryanbisd athena
14:22 thd      Ryanbisd: what are the options
14:22 Ryanbisd Alexandria
14:22 thd      tim: Koha should understand how to assemble the constituent parts correctly but I guess it does not yet.
14:22 Ryanbisd alright, Marc Magician is asking me to choose which kind of holding I want to use.
14:20 tim      We have what Athena calls the prefix, main, cutter and suffix.  I put 'em all together into one tag for Koha.
14:18 thd      A pile of 852 subfields would be good but Koha has to be designed and/or setup to use them.
14:16 thd      Ryanbisd: look at system preferences MARC lincs items http://"your base admin address"/cgi-bin/koha/admin/koha2marclinks.pl
14:15 tim      I chucked the call number into 952 $a because Athena had it split into a pile of 852 subfields.  Dunno what's the best place to put it.
14:14 thd      Ryanbisd: barcoce is 952 $p by default
14:13 thd      MARC Magician maybe a useful tool even if you use Follet directly to export the data initially.
14:13 Ryanbisd what is the barcode field and dewey for koha?
14:11 thd      Ryanbisd: I believe it allowed you to map any field and subfield combination to any other so you could taylor a conversion from one system to another.
14:11 tim      thd: I missed a question.  I exported directly from Follett.
14:10 tim      I'd think the best thing would be to try to export directly from Follett if you can.
14:10 thd      Ryanbisd: You should export into the standard MARC communications format.  I have not used MARC Magician for many years.
14:08 tim      Yup.  Windows woulda choked trying to do the same work on that system.
14:08 Ryanbisd I am installing marc magician right now, so once its setup, I can give you some more info..
14:08 thd      At least everything runs faster in MSDOS than MSWindows.
14:08 tim      Looked kinda cool in a klunky sorta way :)
14:07 tim      I just went in one day to help them get their records out so they could switch to a different system.
14:07 thd      tim: :)
14:07 tim      It was an old DOS based version.
14:07 tim      I can't remember a darn thing about how I did anything with it.
14:06 thd      tim: What software did you use for export?
14:06 tim      Their records weren't very complicated, but if I remember right, the copy information was in the 852 tags.
14:06 Ryanbisd both
14:06 thd      tim: How did you go about that task?
14:05 tim      I exported MARC records from a Follett system a few years back.
14:04 thd      Ryanbisd: The export options in MARC Magician, are they for the format you are exporting from or the format you are exporting to.
14:02 thd      Koha uses the local use 952 field by default as the field linked for items.
14:01 Ryanbisd but, under "export options" it lists several different database types (I assume) such as Follett, Libraryzone, etc, etc.
13:59 Ryanbisd as far as I know, I cant view the file....
13:59 Ryanbisd it gives the information, just not as a Marc record entry
13:59 Ryanbisd see, but we have a 3rd party exporter we use called Marc Magician that should let us..
13:58 owen     I wouldn't be so surprised if it didn't.
13:58 owen     Ryanbisd: It could very well be that Follette *won't* export them for you all in one file.
13:57 Ryanbisd but I cant tell if it does or not...
13:57 Ryanbisd It should export them all in one file...
13:56 owen     But for most operations Koha refers to the 'items' or 'biblioitems' tables.
13:56 owen     So you do you have to have a place for them in the MARC record.
13:56 thd      Ryanbisd: what type of file are the call number and barcodes in for your export from Follet?
13:56 owen     Koha stores it both in the MARC record and in other tables in the database.
13:55 Ryanbisd does koha store it seperatley?
13:55 thd      owen: I have not looked for a while, as I had been concentrating on other issues.  If changing the marc_subfield_structure.pl is necessary then it is a user friendly task with a nice interface :)
13:54 owen     Ryanbisd: I think it's fairly common for systems to store "item information" separately from the MARC record
13:54 Ryanbisd but, it appears in the marc record viewer......... aggravating me
13:53 Ryanbisd in our follett export program, its like it keeps the call number and barcodes seperate from the actual marc record
13:52 owen     You have to set the 'tab' value for the tag's subfields in marc_subfield_structure.pl
13:52 Ryanbisd also, is there a step that I run after bulkimport.pl?
13:52 owen     thd: I'm not sure what you mean by 'making visible in the framework'
13:52 Ryanbisd humm.. foir some reason, either the marc magician isnt adding them, or koha isnt reading it right...
13:51 thd      Ryanbisd: They should be stored there in the 8XX fields for MARC21.
13:49 Ryanbisd also, are holdings stored in the marc information?
13:47 thd      owen: I see the setting for make visible in the framework, but that changes nothing for me.
13:46 owen     You have to edit the framework
13:46 thd      owen: If I want field XXX to appear in the MARC editor I must change the template, right?
13:45 thd      Ryanbisd: We were just discussing a closely related issue.
13:29 Ryanbisd (not marc21 or unimarc) but the way the fields are displayed?
13:29 Ryanbisd is kohas marc records system setup for any specific marc database type?
13:06 thd       extra hard working libraries would be the ones to copy catalogue from with your z39.50 search :)
13:06 thd      hdl: Serials and books can have detailed contents specified in MARC21 but that level of cataloguing is unusual and almost never done for journal articles where indexing and abstracting databases together with OpenURL address that problem.  Some libraries may routinely catalogue multi-author contents for non-journal serials and books, and that is becoming easier with that information sometimes encoded in an ONYX file from the publisher.  Those
12:55 thd      Koha MARC21 fromework has text holdings fields that are easy for humans to read but difficult for computers to parse.  Fields 853-865 can be difficult for humans to read and must be no fun to catalogue without good supporting software.
12:51 thd      Koha MARC21 framework is missing, amongst others, fields 853-865 for detailed holdings information.
12:50 thd      hdl: articles in journals are linked with OpenURL resolvers.  OpenURL resolvers need detailed holdings information.
12:43 hdl      Or is it coped with by the use of SeeAlso fields ?
12:42 hdl      If a person would make a search, wouldn't the search only look at titles and then ...????
12:41 hdl      But how is it achieve to catalogue an article then ?
12:40 thd      hdl: MARC21 allows for the same but it is little used.  However, I believe cataloguing practise in continental Europe often creates separate records for each volume in a set or series instead of one as is common using AACR.
12:39 hdl      thx.
12:36 thd      hdl: http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/CRS0000.htm is a copy of more detailed manuals from LC with free access where LC charges a fee for access to the same material.  The content, however, if not the display system, is public domain in the US.
12:36 hdl      To Continue 19:32 You can have an article linked to an issue linked to the serial.... Each of these parts woul be a biblio, but with more and more detailed information.
12:31 hdl      thx.
12:31 thd      hdl: http://www.loc.gov/marc/ has concise formats for MARC21 for bibligraphic and other formats as well as some simple explanations.
12:31 hdl      in UNIMARC, you can have 4 levels of details....
12:30 hdl      No.
12:29 thd      hdl: do UNIMARC records detail articles in journals as opposed to other types of serials?
12:23 hdl      thd : owuld you mind providing me with a USMARC complete doc ?
12:22 hdl      But about serials and detailing articles in them.
12:22 thd      thd goes to check the documentation
12:22 hdl      I don't speak about items. That's another pb.
12:21 hdl      Or is there a difference ?
12:21 thd      hdl: recommendation 995 is not good for machine reading of missing issues, or years, and varient electonic database holdings.
12:21 hdl      IMO, it is basically the same as what you tell holding fields.
12:21 hdl      thd : 4XX fields have now two ways : Copy information or simply link to another biblio.
12:20 thd      hdl: UNIMARC does not have comparable holdings field for the bibliographic format to those in MARC21.  This has been a problem for academic libraries in France.
12:19 hdl      I don't know USMARC normalization.
12:19 hdl      I worked on 4XX links in UNIMARC... ;)
12:18 hdl      UNIMARC norm is a 600 pages book. I think USMARC is the same .
12:18 thd      items should be able to identify an issue of a serial so that the rest of the infromation is obtained from the main MARC record for the title.
12:18 hdl      ;)
12:18 hdl      In Unimarc, they are in.
12:17 hdl      which ones ?
12:16 thd      It should only be a settings issue but the most detailed serials holdings fields are missing from the framework
12:16 hdl      But that's another story/problem....
12:16 hdl      We should have good and up-to-date default frameworks in any language... And would be able to choose from the tags which one are valuable.
12:14 hdl      Yes But then, it is a setting issue, not a developpment one.
12:14 thd      hdl: since you do not have to create your own records but just modify 3 or 4 fields.
12:13 thd      hdl: you can take advantage of the power within the system yet hide the details from the user.
12:13 hdl      I sould simply do this.
12:13 hdl      No he merely asked me to make a checkbox in create a new framework....
12:12 hdl      But USMARC is far more richer than the needs of any library, or only for powerfull library which have dozens of cataloguers ;)
12:12 thd      owen: The defect is how Koha treats items for holdings in that case.
12:11 thd      owen:  I see the problem now.
12:11 hdl      Frameworks are a powerfull feature in Koha.
12:10 hdl      that's why he asks for a facility in editing a new framework.
12:10 hdl      But Owen says he needs only 3 or 4 tags..
12:10 owen     Koha can keep track of issues, but you can't attach item information to individual issues, so they can't circulate
12:09 hdl      thd : OK.
12:09 thd      owen: what serials defecit are you referring too.  Koha is missing some the good holdings fields from the MARC21 framework.  The should be put in the framework by default.
12:09 owen     Okay, so even with the choice of hiding tags instead of deleting them in a new framework, I still have the problem of having to go in and edit possibly dozens of tags
12:08 hdl      Sure, but Frameworks are a way to display information cleverly and usefully.
12:07 thd      hdl: exactly, no one should ever need to create his own records if better ones are available elsewhere a few key strokes away.
12:07 owen     thd: because Koha doesn't handle serials well enough to use it in our library
12:06 hdl      That's where Z3950 clients and servers are important ;)
12:06 thd      owen: Would you not have a record for the serial title where you are only changing issue information?
12:05 thd      owen: When copy cataloguing you can get the benifit of someone elses hard work, without lokking at the details.
12:04 owen     But when I create a MARC record at my branch for a periodical that's going to get recycled in three months, I'm not going to do more than add information in a couple of tags.
12:04 hdl      thd : sure. I agree with you.
12:03 thd      owen: MARC records were meant to be exchanged between institutons, you can provide benefits to the user from the data in hidden fields without burdening the user with looking at that data directly in the editor or OPAC view.
12:01 owen     i guess I hadn't thought of that approach.
12:01 thd      owen: Or fields too.
12:01 owen     Oh, you mean in setting up the subfields, right.
12:00 thd      owen: the templates hide unneeded fields.
12:00 owen     For our library, I'm talking about pretty simple stuff: like a framework with only 3 or 4 tags