Time  Nick     Message
11:52 tim      I'm looking into reserves
11:52 tim      But overdues don't print, so I probably have something wrong there.
11:51 tim      Patron records and current issues seem to be there too.
11:51 tim      The MARC records seem to be in there ok now.
11:46 thd      tim: what issues are you having with your record migration?
11:40 tim      thd:  Yeah.  the first link was one of 'em.
11:07 thd      tim: were referring to these http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2005/004610.html  http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2004/003234.html ?
10:52 tim      Were you able to dig up my Athena ramblings from the mailing list kados?
10:36 kados    :-)
10:35 owen     Damn you googlebot!!!!1
10:34 kados    owen: I suspect googlebot or some other bot
09:58 hdl      I always installed kohabase from older bases... So no idea to know if mysql would be qmsldk with updatedatabase.
09:56 thd      chris had removed some mysql specific code but others had been reintroducing such code
09:55 kados    hdl: not a bad idea
09:54 thd      Also, there was a discussion as part of yesterday's installer meeting about removing Mysql specific code to support Koha in Postgres
09:52 hdl      I had no problems of that kind.
09:52 kados    hdl: hmmm ... not sure
09:51 hdl      Is TinyInt allowed as auto_increment variable in this mysql version.
09:51 thd      I noticed the same issue installing 2.2.2b
09:50 kados    hdl: version 4.1 of mysql
09:50 kados    hdl: so aqbudgetid was not there
09:50 kados    hdl: the db was brand new
09:02 hdl      Would you investigate in that direction ?
09:02 hdl      Maybe a change in autoincrement management system ?
09:02 hdl      Which version of mysql ?
09:02 hdl      Brand new system ?
09:01 hdl      did you try to look into the databse to see whether aqbudgetid was already there ?
08:59 kados    hdl: so base was not from 2.0
08:58 kados    hdl: on a brand new system
08:58 kados    hdl: I downloaded 2.2.3 and installed using the installer
08:58 kados    hdl: very strange
08:46 hdl      I cant see any aqbudgetid addition in cvs logs...
08:45 hdl      kados : Was the base a brand new one from 2.0 ???
08:43 hdl      I saw a line in updater : aqbudget : aqbudgetid...
08:43 hdl      wait !!
08:41 hdl      But I am working onbudget.
08:40 hdl      kados : Odd ! I didnot commit anything for quite a few days now.
08:39 kados    hdl: this was a new install
08:39 kados    hdl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'aqbudgetid' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1117.DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'id' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1117.
08:39 kados    hdl: I installed Koha 2.2.3 last night ... and got an error from the installer:
08:21 jean     ok thx :) . Nice answer
08:21 hdl      Nothing changed ;)
08:20 hdl      No.
08:14 jean     Is there a need to upgrade the 2.2 database when moving to 2.3 ?
07:51 jean     hi
07:42 Ryanbisd Good mornin all..
06:13 glatp    was the meeting over?
01:28 osmoze   hello all
17:34 slef     slowly
17:28 Genji    how goes it?
17:27 slef     hi genji
17:25 Genji    hiya all!
17:17 slef     "Agenten sterben einsam" just doesn't suggest that to me
17:17 slef     Ah, it's "Where eagles dare"
17:15 jcamins  I will, but I'm inclined to doubt that I'll do anything very large or very surprising without pestering you for feedback. ;-)
17:14 slef     thd_: heh.
17:14 slef     and writing new configure.pl and build.pl scripts
17:14 thd_     slef: I guess there was not much more than this 25/06/05 07:14:49+-5	<slef:#koha>	I'm wondering whether koha should start moving towards Locale::Maketext now that it's in the perl core since 5.8
17:14 slef     If MakeMaker can't do it, I'd suggest making installer.pl into the install stage
17:13 slef     warn me if you're starting any really big surprises
17:13 jcamins  slef: Okay. Sounds good. Thanks!
17:12 slef     jcamins: first thing is to test MakeMaker and send notes to the list. After that, just start hacking the installer and sending patches. If you want to ask my opinion, drop me an email and I'll report or come on IRC, or you can jabber at mjr@jabber.ttllp.co.uk
17:10 jcamins  slef: how/when are we going to follow up on dividing the installer into configure/build/install?
17:08 chris    yeah slef, we might need to do an orphaned tasks email and see if we can get some voluteers
17:08 thd_     slef: I will retreive a link.
17:07 thd_     slef: I found the require 5.8 discussion. You were there participating.
17:06 slef     chris: I'm not sure whther kados will start to cull tasks without developers
17:05 slef     thd_: if you have time, you can follow koha-cvs list posts and correct/LART offences
17:04 jcamins  I'd help out as best I'm able, after the installer is finished, but I don't know that my help would necessarily be an asset to the effort.
17:04 thd_     an effort needs to be made to control the db flavour specific code to keep it from reappearing
17:03 chris    yeah, me too, but if we get it on the map, someone might step up
17:03 slef     I'd say I'd help, but I've already other things I want to do during 2.3
17:03 jcamins  Well, if you want to make Postgres and MySQL an option, those with more RAM can use Postgres, those with less RAM Mysql, right?
17:03 chris    will do
17:02 slef     talk to kados, see if you can get it in
17:02 slef     It's not on http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes although there are other database comments
17:02 thd_     but both postgres and mysql should be options if nothing is tied to one
17:02 chris    and since it was november and it had to go live jan 3 2000 .. that was the solution that stuck :)
17:02 thd_     it seems that postgres may not optimise well with limited ram
17:01 chris    but i did manage to speed koha up a lot by throwing mysql at it
17:01 chris    and that may have been due to my ineptitude more than postgres
17:01 chris    a long time ago
17:00 thd_     did you have speed issues before related to postgres specifically?
17:00 slef     ok, thanks for the comments :)
17:00 chris    not sure slef
17:00 slef     Is it on the roadmap?
17:00 chris    anyway, i better get back to work
16:59 chris    but its easy to say that :)
16:59 chris    i think if we can move to more independence without sacrificing speed then that should be a goal for the next major release
16:58 chris    the code makes use of mysqls auto_increment in some places .. but you can do the same with postgres
16:57 chris    would be my guess
16:57 chris    C4::Biblio
16:56 slef     if there is, someone's been adding them again :-/
16:56 chris    but it wouldnt hurt to do an audit and kill whatever there is
16:56 chris    i doubt there is any of that anymore
16:56 slef     thd_: DBI is only half the struggle. There's still a question of what sql strings you feed it. Until the security update, a lot of bits of koha were doing things like $dbh->do("select * from here where a = '".mysqlquote($foo)."'");
16:55 chris    there should be too many mysqlisms in the code i wrote, but i dont know how much of that is left anymore :)
16:55 chris    they have nearly met in the middle now
16:55 jcamins  I'd be happy to learn Postgres and help out with that if people want to give me some pointers (and this is something that is going to be done).
16:55 chris    mysql has gained features postgres has gained speed
16:55 chris    just for speed
16:55 chris    ported to mysql in about november 99
16:54 jcamins  I don't know. We always used MySQL because of the early Windows port.
16:54 chris    yeah, i wrote koha with postgres first
16:54 slef     early mysqls were pretty low on features... I still think postgres has more in most ways
16:54 thd_     I had hoped koha was DBI abstracted
16:53 jcamins  There was something about MySQL 4.1 being required for some sort of index... Zebra would eliminate that?
16:52 chris    i dont think so jcamins .. should be the opposite id be hoping
16:52 chris    most of the mysqlism were to try to get the search faster .. which if we move to using zebra as the base, we wont need
16:52 slef     jcamins: I can't learn all the world's languages, so it's useful for s.america and asia via gxangalo.com and raporto.info
16:52 jcamins  The optimizations that were discussed a couple of weeks ago would strengthen the requirement on MySQL, though, wouldn't they?
16:51 chris    its getting less
16:51 slef     thd_: I've asked for postgres in the past, but until 2.2 at least, MySQLisms were fairly well ingrained all through koha.
16:50 jcamins  Sounds good to me.
16:50 jcamins  Yeah.
16:50 slef     jcamins: pli
16:49 slef     to sum up the plan: study MakeMaker and see if it's possible; split installer into the three stages; leave l10n until later
16:48 jcamins  Useful, is it?
16:48 slef     learnt it last autumn
16:48 slef     jes
16:48 jcamins  slef: You know Esperanto?
16:47 slef     jcamins: most ways allow fallback to original language (hey, I may decide to write the original in esperanto, just to annoy the latin crowd ;-) )
16:46 slef     thd_: can you find that discussion?
16:46 jcamins  Also, I'd think there would be some way to fall-back to English if localization wasn't available?
16:46 jcamins  That's true.
16:46 slef     rather than having the installer be a Q&A session
16:46 slef     I'm not sure this is such a big issue if we can pull off configure/build/install
16:45 thd_     I seem to remeber a discussion advocating perl 5.8 as a minimum for future versions of koha
16:45 jcamins  gettext also seems to be backwards-incompatible every other version.
16:45 slef     man Locale::Maketext::TPJ13
16:44 slef     thd_: gettext is a common tool, but I don't think it's in perl core. Maketext's man page has a rant about gettext.
16:44 slef     In perl 5.8, Locale::Maketext is in the core. The installer could use that, but it would make koha need perl 5.8.
16:43 thd_     I do not know the tool, but is gettext a standard tool for command line localisation?
16:43 jcamins  Is there any standard for specifying translations in an external file?
16:43 slef     I'm not sure that a hash of format strings is the best way of doing it.
16:42 slef     They're stored in a two-level hash and {en} is one of the keys, so I think someone intended l10n later
16:42 slef     At the moment, the installer reads all its messages from strings set in Install.pm
16:41 jcamins  Localization is something that I have no experience whatsoever with.
16:41 slef     I've a while doing perl, but koha is a bigger scale than most I've done
16:41 jcamins  Great. I'll look as well, although it'll probably take me a while to understand it. Perl is not one of the language I have a lot of experience in.
16:40 slef     (unless someone beats me to it)
16:40 slef     I'll probably take a look and post any notes to koha-devel
16:40 jcamins  Lower the barrier for entry, and reassure the sysadmins who don't like custom scripts.
16:39 slef     Probably be more useful for koha developers to learn, and more attractive to potential developers
16:39 jcamins  Yeah. It would be great, though, to use a standard installer.
16:38 slef     Me neither. One to research.
16:38 jcamins  I'm not clear on whether or not the configuration can be done with MakeMaker. The installation of files certainly could be.
16:36 slef     oh, I often miss the blindingly obvious
16:36 jcamins  Wow that's embarrassing. In my defense, up until recently I primarily used Perl on Windows. ;-)
16:35 slef     ; man ExtUtils::MakeMaker
16:34 jcamins  Actually, this looks very similar to the way the FreeBSD ports system works.
16:34 jcamins  http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-make.html
16:33 slef     URL?
16:33 jcamins  I found a tutorial on MakeMaker from IBM, just using Google.
16:33 slef     CPAN only accepts modules and scripts, not multi-script applications.
16:32 slef     me neither... I'm trying to see how apps are packaged for cpan.org and failing to navigate it.
16:32 jcamins  Oops. You meant the Perl MakeMaker.
16:31 jcamins  I'm not familiar with MakeMaker.
16:31 slef     Cool. So, time for an extra question: can MakeMaker do this for us, or is that for C bindings?
16:30 jcamins  Yeah, I think that would be about it.
16:30 slef     If we have configure/build/install, what does auto-install mean? Does it just become some input to the configure stage?
16:30 jcamins  That's a good point. Split it, then?
16:28 slef     jcamins: I think I can see other benefits, in that we could be conservative which prerequisites are needed in configure, but use all the toys in build and install
16:27 chris    he got busy
16:27 thd_     what happened to steve tonnessen?
16:27 jcamins  Hm... I've seen ports which do things both ways. The advantage to splitting it up into multiple scripts is that it would be easier for a developer to find the part that s/he is looking for. The advantage to not splitting it is that the developer is more likely to remember all three stages.
16:27 chris    there was a .deb for 1.2 .. steve tonnessen did it
16:26 slef     thd_: Debian Developer
16:26 slef     would it be better to call ./installer.pl --configure or to have three scripts doing configure, build and install?
16:26 jcamins  I'm willing to do the RPM, unless there's someone more qualified.
16:25 thd_     slef: DD?
16:25 slef     I don't know. I'd adopt a debian and upload it (I am a DD)
16:25 jcamins  http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/sysutils/webmin/
16:25 thd_     what happened to their maintainers?
16:24 thd_     there once was a Debian package and a Red Hat package
16:24 jcamins  Hold on a moment. I'll find it.
16:24 slef     jcamins: do you have a URL for webmin's ports makefile?
16:23 slef     (wow, zabriskie crashed on near-final corner of Tour de France TTT)
16:23 thd_     everything should utimately be packaged for a particular OS if one has the resources to do so
16:22 jcamins  I'd say Webmin qualifies.
16:22 slef     preferably something pretty complicated
16:22 jcamins  I'm sure. Let me see if I can find an example
16:22 slef     Are other perl webapps packaged for freebsd?
16:21 jcamins  Yeah, I'd agree.
16:21 slef     sure. I mean creating the files with the right contents... they could be copied to /etc in the install
16:20 jcamins  Writing files to the system is always part of the "install" phase in the FreeBSD ports system.
16:20 slef     actually, it checks dependencies first
16:19 slef     jcamins: the main steps in the installation are figuring out the configuration (from httpd.conf and so on), writing the configuration files (= build?) and installing files and database
16:18 thd_     slef: please do
16:17 slef     thd_: I'll talk to you about it in 32minutes, if you want.
16:17 jcamins  The ports collection is designed around such a configuration (configure/build/install), although, of course, there are ways to get around that, such as eliminating the configure stage.
16:17 thd_     I have not asked about postgres before.  I found other questions more pressing.
16:16 jcamins  Yes.
16:16 slef     jcamins: would it be easier to have a configure/build/install division?
16:16 jcamins  (a "port" in this sense is basically a Makefile specifying how to install the files; one of the requirements for getting a port committed is that user intervention not be required at installation)
16:16 slef     thd_: support in the installer won't make the rest of koha use it, though.
16:15 jcamins  My goal is to create a port that can be a part of the FreeBSD ports collection.
16:15 slef     thd_: I think that needs the other teams to agree, too. Postgres support in the installer wouldn't be too hard IMO.
16:15 slef     jcamins: what's motivating your improvements?
16:14 thd_     postgres support
16:14 jcamins  Yeah. koha/updater
16:13 slef     I think updatedatabase might be elsewhere in the tree.
16:13 slef     yes
16:13 jcamins  Just to check, the most recent versions of all those files ARE the ones in the koha/misc module, right?
16:13 slef     So, what do we want from an installer?
16:12 slef     Obvious problems are that it doesn't make for easy packaging and it isn't a good example of software engineering (low cohesion and poor coupling)
16:11 slef     Finally, there are some .sql files to create the database and updatedatabase which upgrades old koha databases to the current schema.
16:11 slef     Then there's install.pl and koha.upgrade (different authors, so different naming styles) which call those functions in an order to do an install or upgrade.
16:10 slef     Currently, there's Install.pm containing the functions that do the actual installing, the messages displayed (english only so far) and a few helper routines.
16:09 slef     I'll introduce the current situation, then ask where we should go.
16:08 jcamins  I think 15 minute each is probably reasonable.
16:07 slef     So, shall we aim for 15 minutes for each, or does one need more time?
16:07 jcamins  None come to mind.
16:06 slef     Any other topics we should cover?
16:06 jcamins  Sounds good to me.
16:06 slef     I suggested: general structure, auto-install and localisation.
16:06 jcamins  This is the first time using xchat, and apparently whatever keys I just hit are not supposed to be hit.
16:06 slef     welcome back jcamins. The X closes the window. ;-)
16:06 jcamins  Oops.
16:04 slef     hah, let's wait for a few moments :-/
16:04 slef     I suggested: general structure, auto-install and localisation.
16:04 slef     owen, thd_: jump in if anything occurs
16:03 thd_     I am here but ...
16:02 slef     What topics do we want to cover?
16:02 slef     so, who's here? slef, jcamins, anyone else?
16:01 slef     I just don't understand why we keep the daemon. Maybe zebra will help that?
16:00 jcamins  I have most of my experience with Voyager. If something doesn't work right with Voyager, the incredibly expensive service contract takes care of it. ;)
15:59 slef     well, I get how the protocol and concept works
15:59 jcamins  Oh, that I don't know. I understand from the library's point-of-view.
15:59 slef     So, why is it so tricky to get running? ;-)
15:58 jcamins  Actually, that's one of the few things I understand. Well, to some extent.
15:57 slef     the whole z39.50 side is a mystery to me
15:57 slef     hey, I still am :-/
15:56 jcamins  As you know, I'm new to Koha, so I'll be playing catch-up for quite a while, I suspect.
15:56 jcamins  Ah.
15:56 slef     2.3 development work
15:55 jcamins  A summary of what?
15:55 slef     I'm still waiting for a summary to return to me :-/
15:55 slef     would have been better if I'd been able to email the list last week
15:55 slef     not yet, but I guess we'll see
15:54 jcamins  Did anyone else say they were planning on coming to this meeting?
15:51 slef     well, I guess it's an abbreviation really, like laser
15:51 jcamins  Presumably someone who's more familiar with Zebra could actually tell you for sure.
15:50 jcamins  I believe so. That was my assumption, anyway.
15:50 slef     on today's list traffic: what is TCL? Does it mean Tcl?
15:49 jcamins  It's going to take me a while to get used to working with people outside my timezone. It's 16:45 in New Jersey.
15:48 slef     (it's now 21:45 local time)
15:47 slef     no worries... early evenings aren't great for me, really
15:47 jcamins  I didn't think I'd be able to make such good time; sorry you had to reschedule to later on my account, and then have me show up early.
15:46 slef     cool... good to see you
15:46 jcamins  I am. (Jared Camins... although you probably guessed)
15:45 slef     Anyone else here for the installer?
15:43 jcamins  Hello.
15:42 slef     hi all
14:33 owen     ...right between "Makes cappuccino" and "cures Athlete's Foot"
14:32 thd_     owen: be sure to add that to the roadmap :]
14:31 owen     No, sorry.  Maybe in v. 5.0.
14:30 thd_     owen: will it design my templates for me? :)
14:29 thd_     owen: well that is very nice :)
14:29 owen     Yes
14:29 thd_     owen: realy, it reads the file system?
14:26 owen     No, those are automatically generated
14:23 thd_     Ryanbisd: Of course you would need to add template 'ryan' to the value list that appears on the same system preferences page.
14:20 owen     Then switch templates in system preferences
14:20 owen     ...to /intranet-tmpl/ryan/en or something unique
14:20 owen     The best way to go is to copy and rename the whole directory (e.g. \intranet-tmpl\default\en)
14:19 owen     The TMPL files are mostly plain HTML
14:19 Ryanbisd haha
14:19 owen     Ryanbisd, you can muck around with templates to your heart's content
14:18 thd_     owen: The Koha Québec map is especially sparsely populated.
14:17 Ryanbisd put in your own logos etc?
14:17 Ryanbisd I take it you can edit the different themes?
13:32 owen     We used to have a Canadian contributor, but he hasn't been heard from in a long time
13:21 thd_     What is done in Canadian libraries to bridge the MARC21 or CANMARC divide with UNIMARC?  I would think good format interoperability would be very important for libraries there.
12:43 Ryanbisd ahh...
12:37 owen     Getting late for folks in France, and still too early for folks in New Zealand
12:34 Ryanbisd its quiet in here now..