Time  Nick      Message
12:03 kados     shaun: so you installed a fresh version of Koha?
12:03 kados     redid the DB and everything?
12:03 kados     I don't have time to troubleshoot that specific problem
12:04 kados     but I can help you uninstall your current Koha and start over
12:04 kados     you can probably do that in under 10 mins
12:04 kados     drop the koha database
12:04 kados     delete /etc/koha.conf
12:04 kados     and /etc/koha-httpd.conf
12:04 kados     delete from db where user like 'kohaadmin'
12:04 kados     delete from mysql where user like 'kohaadmin'
12:04 kados     run installer.pl
12:05 kados     (actually, grab 2.2.2b while you're at it
12:06 kados     sorry ... that second query is wrong ... should be
12:06 kados     delete from user where user like 'kohaadmin'
12:06 kados     both of those are after doing 'use mysql' in your mysql client
12:28 shaun     sorry, i was away, back now
12:28 shaun     has 2.2.2b been rolled yet?
12:30 shaun     it's all new - the database is a new one which I created a couple of days ago, each on a completely fresh install of mysql 4.1.11 on a completely fresh install of fedora core 3
12:38 owen      2.2.2b: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=16466&package_id=136105&release_id=318874
12:40 shaun     ah, great - what changes are there, without me downloading it?
12:49 shaun     does it include my fix to the returns page? :p
12:51 owen      I wonder if paul created the 2.2.2b package without updating CVS?  Is that possible?
12:54 shaun     i have to ask about the koha release cycle: when preparing for major and minor releases, do we get the cvs head, roll it, and then fix all of the known bugs on that so that release candidates are issued, or is a separate branch maintained for each release, with the new features being developed in head, and the fixes being ported to the release branch, or what?
13:00 owen      new features are developed in head, and bugfixes are in the rel_ branch.  So current bugfixes go into rel_2_2.
13:01 shaun     so, paul rolled this release from the rel_2_2 branch, then? is this the same with new major releases (e.g. for 2.4, will there be a rel_2_4 branch? | when will it split?)
13:03 owen      Yes, this release should have been from the rel_2_2 branch.  When 2.4 is released, the current stable branch will be rel_2_4 and HEAD will be for 2.6 (I guess)
13:05 shaun     (so our templates will make it into 2.4, if i commit them to head... nice)
13:05 owen      That's right.
13:19 shaun     I have a worry: if our templates are not the default in 2.2, and will not be in Koha at all until 2.4, yet we are basing our templates on the 2.2.2 release, we will have to backport all of the changes in the default templates in head between the 2.2.2 release and the time that 2.4 is being alpha'd - got any suggestions for getting around this?
13:20 owen      Keep up with updates.
13:21 owen      Every time a change is made to a default template in CVS, make a similar change to yours.
13:21 shaun     with the cvs mailing list, i suppose - what if the changes are incompatible with 2.2...?
13:22 owen      I'm not sure what you mean...If you want your templates to work in 2.2 and 2.4, you'll have to maintain two different versions.
13:25 shaun     not so much 2.2 and 2.4 - more 2.2 and head, as our templates came from 2.2, but updates to the non-template stuff (the perl backend) in head could be incompatible with the (stable and released) version of koha we are working on.
13:26 owen      Still... you're talking about maintaining two different versions.
13:26 shaun     is there much of a change in database structure between 2.2 and the current head?
13:27 owen      paul would know if you manage to catch him around here.
13:28 kados     shaun: do a dif on updatedatabase between 2.2 and 2.4 to find out
13:29 shaun     well - in the same way that there were major changes between 1.x and 2.0, would it be probable that there are any changes between 2.2 and 2.4? (i presumed you would know, as you are working at a library, and therefore have to manage the upgrades to some extent)
13:29 shaun     who is updatedatabase? :)
13:30 shaun     is it a perl script?
13:30 owen       /updater/updatedatabase
13:30 owen      If there weren't any changes between 2.2 and 2.4, there wouldn't be a 2.4.  We'd just keep calling it 2.2! :)
13:31 shaun     i meant changes to the database specifically
13:35 shaun     ah, there are a couple of changes, but nothing that really affects me...
13:37 shaun     so, if i work purely on head, how can i ensure that my installed copy is the latest, without rolling, untarring, installing and installing the templates and database again?
13:39 owen      Get a fresh copy from CVS?
13:39 kados     shaun have you read the documentation on kohadocs.org?
13:40 kados     http://www.kohadocs.org/Updating_Koha.html
13:40 kados     specifically that one?
13:42 shaun     yes *promptly writes bash script which achieves effect of said document*
13:51 shaun     kados, do you have any idea when 2.4 will be out? i really need to demonstrate the system to the library/librarians which will be using it, but if 2.4 is a long way away, i will consider making a custom release of 2.2 with the new templates backported... unless our templates go straight into cvs, which, frankly, they are not ready for yet...
13:52 shaun     stability is important, obviously...
13:52 shaun     (brb)
13:52 kados     not sure
13:52 owen      I think there hasn't really been much done in HEAD since 2.2 came out, so 2.4 isn't looking very close
13:56 owen      And dont' forget, shaun, HEAD is for unstable stuff, so you can commit your templates any time, and keep updating as you go.  It's up to you, though.
14:30 shaun     *doesn't know what to do...*
14:33 owen      Look, if you want your templates to work in 2.2 *and* you want your templates to be part of the 2.4 release, you're going to *have* to maintain two different copies.  Or upgrade your templates all in one go when 2.4 is released.
14:34 owen      It's no fun, but no one said the job was easy! :)
14:47 shaun     well, if I knew that 2.4 will be released before september, and has the amazing features we were talking about last week (from the argentinians - still don't know the full story...) then I would just commit to head, and make sure that all further template development (right down to the bugfixes) is done on our new ones
14:49 owen      We can't predict the future.
14:49 shaun     *wonders what else owen might be predicting, aside from the future :D*
14:58 owen      You're right, that was so redundant.  I should have just said 'We can't the future.'
15:00 shaun     rofl, I can't the future either
15:09 kados     well ... unless you're submitting bugfixes you should be committing to HEAD anyway
15:09 kados     rel_2_2 is just for bugfixes for 2.2
15:10 owen      (and *very* minor additions)
15:14 kados     check this catalog out:
15:14 kados     http://search.lexpublib.org/
15:14 kados     very fancy
15:14 owen      Hmmm... I can't seem to connect
15:15 shaun     owen: it's a bit slow for me too, it loaded eventually...
15:17 shaun     don't see what's fancy about it...
15:18 kados     I think the 'suggestions' feature is pretty neat
15:19 kados     boy ... it sure is slow!
15:19 shaun     yes, but it's at the expense of general usability, and speed...
15:19 kados     well ... it wasn't this slow last time I saw it
15:19 shaun     i take it they're not running koha on mysql 4 then ;)
15:19 kados     hehe
15:19 shaun     (burn 'em!)
15:19 kados     well actually ...
15:20 kados     I've been doing a bit of reading on search methods
15:21 kados     I used to wonder what other databases there are besides Relational
15:22 kados     I'm starting to understand at least one other: textual
15:22 owen      I like how for related terms to 'microtechnology' they offer 'Macbeth--Chronology'
15:22 kados     so hehe
15:23 kados     so in the case of searching MARC records, rather than using a RDBMS we should be using a textual DBMS
15:23 kados     using textual indeces
15:23 kados     something like Lucene
15:23 owen      Is that more like what Google does?
15:23 kados     yep
15:24 kados     and every other sane approach to searching texts does something similar
15:24 kados     in effect we have two different databases
15:24 kados     one is a database 'about' books
15:24 kados     the MARC records
15:24 shaun     meh... i know a little about implementing lucene in java - what apache forrest has taught me ;) - does anybody else have any idea how to implement it (somehow) in koha?
15:24 owen      Interesting...you'd have to program your indexer to give different weight to different areas of the MARC record depending on the search type.
15:24 kados     and one is a database 'of' books ... our holdings, status, etc.
15:25 kados     I think PLucene is the answer as it's in perl ;-)
15:25 shaun     well, yes... i'm not a perl genius (*yet*)
15:26 kados     RDBMS are not really designed to handle a textual database and so it's performance and accuracy are actually quite poor
15:26 kados     owen: right
15:27 kados     you could actually do some really neat stuff with the indexer
15:27 kados     http://search.cpan.org/~tmtm/Plucene-1.21/
15:28 kados     there's that clumsy 'it's' again ;-)
15:28 owen      That Lexington catalog may be snazzy, but it's ugly as sin!
15:28 kados     ehe
15:28 kados     yea
15:30 kados     http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/02/19/plucene.html
15:31 shaun     are there any commercial/propietary ILS which do this out of the box?
15:31 kados     I'm sure most of the big ones do
15:31 kados     which would explain why their searches are so damn fast even with HUGE datasets
15:32 kados     and even when those datasets include fulltext records
15:33 kados     (which is something else we could look ito providing for Koha)
15:33 kados     (if we went with PLucene)
15:35 shaun     surely that'd be for a 3.0 release?
15:36 owen      Right, so...next Wednesday?  Let's get on it, people!
15:36 shaun     ??? what happens next wednesday, may i ask?
15:37 kados     could be ... redesigning the search may not be very hard though
15:37 owen      Koha 3.0!!!  We've got a lot of coding to do!!!11
15:37 kados     from the research I've done so far Plucene is quite easy to use
15:37 kados     hehe
15:38 kados     to do a 3.0 we'd have to do quite a bit of bugfixing too
15:38 shaun     what bugfixing is this?
15:39 shaun     (i mean, what blockers are there?)
15:39 owen      For 3.0?  How about Bug 1235 -- "Plucene functionality still imaginary"?
15:41 owen      ;)
15:45 shaun     http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&email1=&emailtype1=substring&emailassigned_to1=1&email2=&emailtype2=substring&emailreporter2=1&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&changedin=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&version=2.0.0&version=2.2.0&version=CVS&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwords
15:45 shaun     substr&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&cmdtype=doit&order=%27Importance%27
15:45 shaun     long link ;) -- bugzilla needs a little bit of cleaning
15:46 kados     owen: hehe
15:47 shaun     brb
15:48 kados     so for using plucene I think the thing to do is
15:48 kados     export the marc records as xml
15:48 kados     using a free tool (we'll need to find one)
15:50 kados     then extract the meta tag for insertion into the indexer
15:50 kados     tags that is
15:51 kados     then modify our search code to grab bibids from plucene's indexes before passing it off to find out item-specific info, status, etc.
15:52 kados     chris around yet?
15:55 kados     maybe it would be better to use MARC::Record to extract data directly and insert it into the index via the indexer...
15:56 shaun     "export the marc records as xml" -- when? with an index daemon/cronjob or at the time of searching, directly?
15:56 kados     see my revision ^ ;-)
15:56 kados     this would happen as records were added/deleted
15:57 kados     so ... not very often
16:02 shaun     wouldn't this be quite slow (particularly on pre-mysql 4.1 - *brings back performance topic*)?
16:02 kados     wouldn't what be slow?
16:03 shaun     searching, indexing or adding, particularly following a large marc import
16:03 kados     btw: plucene also supports variations and inflections of a word
16:04 kados     well ... searching will be really fast since we won't be using mysql
16:04 kados     indexing and adding can be backgrounded ... it might take a while
16:04 kados     but it doesn't happen nearly as much as searching eh?
16:05 shaun     why not mysql? will it be using xml entirely?
16:06 kados     no ... disregard my xml comment
16:06 shaun     (*very confused*)
16:08 shaun     please explain more, as i don't understand how we could not be using mysql, yet still searching the database
16:12 shaun     ?
16:21 kados     http://openstacks.net/os/index.xml
16:21 kados     podcast on LibLime ;-)
19:11 rach      russ?
02:57 hdl       hi
03:40 Sylvain   hi
04:32 Sylvain   ah, we may have a candidate in the next 2-3 weeks ...
04:32 Sylvain   is seems interesting :)
10:25 owen      paul... didn't there used to be a 'delete' button on the addbiblio screen?
10:30 owen      hi shaun
10:31 shaun     hi
10:32 shaun     still haven't got any book data :( (and ben seems to have gone off in a huff...)
11:03 owen      Someone should build a Mozilla toolbar for Koha.  You could put the whole navigation menu in and free up space onscreen.
11:05 hdl       what a killer feature.
11:05 owen      Anyone here know XUL? :)
11:05 hdl       No, but having some docs on it.
11:05 owen      For that matter we could probably build a whole Koha interface in XUL
11:06 shaun     i know a little (jack of all trades ;)) - i'll look into it
11:06 hdl       But then Koha wouldn't be that easily installable on multiple machines ;)
11:07 owen      True, but it'd still be cool B)
11:07 paul      hdl : could be a good idea for intranet opacs
11:07 shaun     | do you know a way of getting two installs on one box? the two installs seem to fight over /etc/koha.conf ;)
11:07 paul      yep shaun, very easy. I have at least 10 ;-)
11:07 paul      just add :
11:08 paul      SetEnv KOHA_CONF /etc/ANOTHER_koha.conf
11:08 paul      into your virtual host
11:08 paul      (in both opac & librarian interface)
11:09 paul      note that the installer just check for /etc/koha.conf.
11:09 paul      so if you mv /etc/koha.conf /etc/koha2.conf
11:09 paul      you can install it again !
11:09 hdl       and also SetEnv PERL5LIB /usr/local/koha/modules
11:09 paul      yep, hdl is right.
11:09 shaun     the opac is what i am thinking - for my implementation (in a school), it would be useful to have a restricted, fullscreened firefox, with limited navigation - i can imagine it being good for self checkout
11:09 shaun     | k, tries that, thx
11:10 paul      shaun : the self checkout already exists in Nelsonville
11:10 paul      should be commited soon (isn't it owen ?)
11:10 owen      Yes, self-checkout is in use at one of our branches.  I think Joshua just needs to find time to clean it up and commit it.
11:12 hdl       paul : a propos de la visite médicale ?
11:12 shaun     i know it exists, what we would like to see in the school library is the restricted terminal (stops users from going to another site etc)
11:12 paul      (pas appelé, tant pis pour eux...)
11:12 hdl       Je viens ou pas.
11:13 hdl       s/./?/
11:13 paul      je réfléchis...
11:13 paul      tu as bien avancé sur le dictionnaire ?
11:14 hdl       Je vois à peu près les traitements pour la recherche. Mais je ne sais pas trop quoi faire des résultats. Une liste de checkboxes pour les intégrer à la recherche ? ou autre...?
11:14 paul      ok, alors viens, comme ca on fera ensemble.
11:14 paul      le rdv est à 11H
11:15 paul      donc tu peux venir dans la matinée
11:15 hdl       donc pas forcément aux aurores ;)
11:15 paul      pas la peine de te lever à 5H par contre ;-)
11:15 hdl       ok.
11:15 hdl       les embouteillages finissent à quelle heure ?
11:16 hdl       ou bien ils ne finissent pas ???
11:16 paul      vers 9H30 tu dois être tranquille
11:16 hdl       ok.
11:16 shaun     DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'aqbudgetid' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1061. DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'id' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1061.
11:16 shaun     -- in installer.pl, when installing on mysql 4.1 - anybody else noticed this?
11:17 paul      iirc shaun, you should also have a warning just before or after the update, saying "don't worry, it's not really a problem"
11:17 owen      Yes, paul, http://www.bigballofwax.co.nz is chris's
11:19 shaun     paul: there is no such message...
11:20 paul      mmm... anyway, i'm almost sure it's a problem you can ignore.
11:32 Sylvain   ohlala, je viens de répondre pour les règles de prêt et entre temps deux réponses, elle va être débordée de réponses la pauvre :)
11:33 Sylvain   bon on a tous 3 répondu à peu près pareil, ça va :)
11:33 paul      ;-)
11:33 Sylvain   mais je pense que le pb qu'elle évoque mériterait réflexion
11:33 Sylvain   j'avais aussi pas mal galéré
11:34 paul      moi, je ne considère pas ca comme un bug.
11:34 paul      (ou alors il y a un truc qui m'échappe)
11:34 paul      si on met 0,0 dans une *, ca veut dire "pas de droit"
11:34 Sylvain   oui
11:35 Sylvain   si on ne met rien ça veut dire on veut pas remplir cette case
11:35 Sylvain   mais si c'est dans une colonne/ligne *
11:35 Sylvain   ça veut pas pour autant dire 0,0 pour toute la ligne/colonne
11:35 Sylvain   (enfin ça fait qques temps que j'avais rencontré le pb je suis plus exactement sur du pb)
11:35 paul      donc ton idée serait qu'il faudrait mettre automatiquement le max sur les * s'il n'y a rien ?
11:35 paul      (par exemple)
11:36 Sylvain   bon, j'ai peur de dire des conneries, c'est vieux tout ça
11:36 Sylvain   attends
11:36 paul      mauvaise idée à la réflexion : si on calcule automatiquement, on aurait "nb max = plus grande des valeurs. Or pour beaucoup, c'est la somme des valeurs)
11:36 paul      5 livres, 3 CD et 8 n'importe quoi.
11:37 hdl_away  en fait, pardon d'intervenir en partance, mais c'est peut-être que tout le monde c'est peut-être la définiton des droit de tous les autres, à l'exclusion de ceux qui sont définis.
11:37 paul      par contre, pour les * par type de lecteur, c'est plutôt le plus grand, effectivement.
11:39 hdl       désolé, j'ai dit une bêtise.
11:40 Sylvain   ah, je viens de refaire mes petits tests
11:40 Sylvain   en fait, quand on a rien dans une case, c'est bien ça, il créé un enresgitrement avec le nombre de prêt NULL
11:41 Sylvain   alors maintenant, pourquoi est-ce génant déjà ? je me rappelle plus
11:45 Sylvain   bon bein je sais plus trop en fait :(
11:45 Sylvain   mais bon, il me semble avoir entendu Pascale dire quelquechose a ce sujet, peut-être qu'elle va réagir sur la ML
11:45 Sylvain   toujours est-il qu'il y a un truc quand mm :)
11:45 Sylvain   sur ce, c'est l'heure de rentrer sous la pluie parisienne ...
11:45 Sylvain   a demain
11:45 paul      on va attendre et voir si Pascale et Carole réagissent
11:45 paul      à demain
11:46 paul      (tu bosses sur quoi en ce moment au fait)
11:46 paul      (bon, on verra demain)
11:46 paul      ;-)
11:46 sylvainOu j'ai 2 secondes ;)
11:46 paul      hdl a commencé le "dictionnaire"
11:46 sylvainOu en fait j'étais parti sur dautres choses et j'essaye de finaliser les commandes depuis le réservoir
11:46 paul      carrément touchy pour gérer à la fois les bibs avec listes d'autorité et celles sans.
11:47 paul      (mais on a trouvé comment faire, ca va être mignon tout plein)
11:47 sylvainOu mais avec ces biblio biblioitems, OLD, new MARC ..
11:47 sylvainOu bon bein cool pour vous
11:47 paul      en fait, on ne cherche rien sur biblio/biblioitems...
11:47 sylvainOu ça va être intéressant !
11:47 paul      on utilise uniquement les champs marc
11:47 paul      avec l'API de Search.pm, on peut trouver ou chercher les choses.
11:48 paul      (restera à valider les performances, mais je suis pas trop inquiet)
11:48 sylvainOu ok
11:48 sylvainOu sur ce, c'est vraiment le départ
11:48 sylvainOu ++