Time  Nick    Message
13:53 garth   hey folks, I having an issue with the ze9.50 daemon on 1.2.3, due to work overload I'm not able to update koha to 2.x, I get the following eror
13:54 garth   Processing author="test" at 1 z3950.loc.gov:7090 voyager (1 forks)
13:54 garth   Q: @attr 1=1003 "test"
13:54 garth   ERROR: Can't call method "option" on an undefined value at /home/eigcampus/domains/library.eigcampus.org/public_html/intranet/cgi-bin/acqui.simple/z3950/processz3950queue line 163, <KC> line 20.
13:55 garth   any thoughts folks? I would like to at least have z39.50 running on the new server
14:38 kados   garth so the error is happening on koha 1.2.3 or koha 2.2?
15:50 owen    z3950 problems seem to always top the list of frequently-asked questions.
16:00 kados   yep ... but not server problems ;-)
16:00 kados   the client is much more complex
16:01 owen    Did Paul write the client?
16:01 owen    I'm assuming that was part of the original MARC work?
16:01 kados   I can't remember now ... I think chris may have done the original for 1.x
16:01 owen    Hm.  1.2.3 seems so long ago now.
16:02 kados   yea.
16:05 owen    kados, have you had time to work on any of your Koha special projects lately?
16:06 garth   hi folks, I don't have the time right now to update koha to 2.2 so I was just wondering if you guys had a quick fix for the 1.2.3 z39.50 problem I have. If not, the user will have to wait until I update to 2.x
16:06 kados   garth: I don't know of a quick fix
16:06 kados   garth: have you checked the mailing list archive?
16:07 owen    Hard for us to diagnose since we don't have a 1.2.3 installation
16:08 kados   there are two mailing list archives listed at
16:08 kados   http://www.koha.org/mailing/
16:08 kados   you could search there for a similar error
16:08 garth   yeah, I was wondering, do you see alot of z39.50 errors in the 2.x series?
16:09 kados   owen: I haven't had a chance lately.  The amazon and spellcheck stuff is almost ready to be committed into 2.3
16:09 kados   garth: we don't use that module at NPL
16:09 garth   The reason I ask is other than the z39.50 issues Koha has worked excellent for us
16:09 kados   garth: but I do recall quite a bit of the mailing list questions having to do with Z39.50
16:10 kados   garth: Your best bet would be to post a message to the list with details on the version of Koha, what you're trying to do, and the exact error messages ... paul will likely write you back within a day or so
16:11 kados   owen: network outage?
16:11 garth   ok, I was just wondering if anyone here has had experience with z39.50 in the 2.x series
16:12 kados   garth: well I wrote the Z-Server ... but that's different ;-)
16:12 garth   cool
16:12 kados   garth: and it requires MARC
16:12 kados   although ... it would be possible to do it without Koha's MARC
16:13 garth   My upgrade path is to move to 2.2 with MARC for my current 1.2.3 installtion
16:13 garth   And the client LOOOVES z39.50!!
16:14 kados   yea ... it's pretty important to our operation too ... we use BookWhere to nab records ... and we do resource sharing with our Z39.50 server
16:14 kados   anyone seen this link? http://www.libraryelf.com/
16:14 kados   pretty neat service
16:15 kados   garth: I'd recommend investing your time in getting 2.2 up rather than getting Z39.50 working with 1.2.3 ... but that's just my two cents
16:17 garth   I agree completely
16:38 kados   si around?
16:39 si      indeed I am
16:39 kados   I just got my first soekris 4801
16:39 si      ecellent
16:39 kados   any pointers?
16:40 kados   I'd like to run one of the BSDs
16:40 kados   and do firewall/transparent proxy/dhcp/dns cacheing
16:41 kados   I don't have a BDS installed on my laptop but I just made room on my HD to install it in case it's needed (looks like it from what I can tell)
16:41 si      mmm
16:41 kados   s/BDS/BSD/ ;-)
16:41 si      if you just want something that works out of the box with very little effort, then monowall is fun
16:42 si      but I'm not sure whether it'll manage transparent proxying
16:42 kados   do you do any of that at katipo?
16:42 si      any of which?
16:43 kados   transparent proxying
16:43 si      the BSD stuff, or transparent proxying?
16:43 si      I have a colleague of genuine Irish extraction
16:43 kados   :-)
16:43 si      who is fond of labelling various things "the devils work"
16:43 kados   even better :-)
16:43 si      NAT
16:43 si      Windows
16:44 kados   it's true ... transparent proxies fall into that category
16:44 si      and other things that I don't immediately recall
16:44 kados   :-)
16:44 si      and I suspect that he regards tp similarly
16:44 kados   well do you think m0n0BSD could handle it?
16:44 si      and I can't help but concur
16:44 kados   yep
16:44 kados   me too
16:44 kados   but the library wants it
16:45 si      do they?
16:45 si      or do they want proxying?
16:45 kados   for filtering
16:45 si      Neither my Irish friend nor I have any issues with proxying
16:45 si      it's monkeying with the TCP streams that we find objectionable
16:45 kados   well they want 'patron controlled filtering that doesn't require an initial login but only prompts for a login when they visit a questionable site and that's centralized and doesn't require browser muching'
16:45 kados   s/muching/mucking/
16:46 si      both mozilla and IE have mechanisms to centrally configure them via Javascript
16:46 si      you can use that to force use of proxies
16:46 kados   from where do you configure them?
16:47 si      you point them at a carefully crafted page on your webserver
16:47 kados   hehe
16:48 si      "Automatic proxy configuratino URL"
16:48 si      it's in the firefox proxies tab
16:48 kados   hmmm, well that's an option
16:48 kados   right ... well the problem is that not all of our machines are locked down enough
16:49 kados   so patrons could potentially override the filter (i.e., teenage boys who know more about computers than my staff)
16:49 kados   a transparent proxy (we have one now that we pay lots for) eliminates the need
16:49 si      just firewall direct access off at the edge
16:49 kados   hmmm ... tell me more
16:50 si      however, if it's only members of the public using it, what do you care if the tranny proxy mucks them up :-)
16:50 kados   right :-)
16:50 si      well, if you set machines to use a standard proxy - squid, apache, or something commercial
16:51 si      then from the POV of your NAT firewall, all requests are coming from the cache, not from the end users
16:51 si      so you can firewall the endusers internally
16:51 si      and not allow them to make outbound http/https/ftp requests
16:51 si      we did this for the opacs at HLT, to force them to use the proxy
16:51 si      ie, if they disabled the proxy, nothing worked
16:51 kados   that sounds like a nice setup
16:52 si      it's pretty low rent, and does require that the machines be configured to use the proxy
16:52 kados   our network is pretty messy currently
16:52 si      but it does tend to make the browsing experience a little more reliable
16:52 kados   yea ..
16:53 si      than using transparent proxies
16:53 si      which are the devils work :-)
16:53 kados   :-)
16:53 si      anyhoo, choices over how you implement your proxy is kind of up to you, if you can cope with the vagueness that transparent proxying introduces, then run with it
16:54 si      how many users are you going to be putting through the proxy, and at what sort of bandwidth utilisations?
16:55 si      and what software do you propose to use for the tp?
16:55 kados   about 200 users at about 1.0Mb spread over seven locations
16:55 kados   maybe squid or squidguard
16:56 kados   our network is so messy currently it's hard to even talk about
16:56 kados   we used to be fairly centralized with one gateway router at NPL
16:56 kados   hmmm, we've been using IPrism which as far as I can tell is a tp
16:56 kados   but costs a pretty penny
16:57 kados   (for us)
16:57 si      I don't know if they've been resolved or not, I think at the time they looked pretty fundamental
16:58 kados   well I guess as long as I had a way to avoid having to change every browser, and could still offer temporary overrides and not force any kind of login I'd be ok with any solution
16:58 kados   thos are the three main requirements
16:59 si      yes, 200 desktops is a fair number
16:59 kados   I thought the easiest way to solve our current overall network prob would be to put a firewall at each branch that did transparent proxying and dhcp + dns cacheing
16:59 si      so what's wrong with the current box?
16:59 kados   we don't have a firewall currently at any location
16:59 kados   and our networks are decentralizing
17:00 kados   so we're losing our 'gateway'
17:00 si      righto, so your libraries are moving onto DSL-like services that are connected to the interweb directly?
17:00 kados   some have gone to DSL, some to Cable Modem
17:00 kados   yep
17:01 kados   so firewalling is really important now
17:01 si      and by their assymetrical nature, you don't want to haul that data back to a central point via VPNs
17:01 kados   (before our ISP sorta handled that )
17:01 kados   right!
17:01 si      modems
17:01 si      and dsl
17:01 si      are more of my Irishmans devils work...
17:01 kados   :-)
17:02 si      he freely acknowledges that the devil is a busy entity :-)
17:02 kados   hehe
17:03 si      are you after the caching aspects of a proxy?
17:03 si      or just the content mediation?
17:03 kados   nope
17:03 kados   just content mediation
17:03 kados   dns caching would be nice for security reasons
17:03 kados   but that's all
17:03 si      DNS caching is a much less intensive task
17:04 si      you can cache a lot of DNS in 1MB of RAM
17:04 si      but sweet FA of the interweb
17:04 kados   well ... here's the other side of this coin ... we want to use our Koha database to determine who has override privileges :-)
17:05 kados   and I'd like to use the dmoz directory to determine what falls into the 'moderated' category (currently only porn and chat do)
17:05 si      you get 128MB RAM with the 4801?
17:05 si      dmoz?
17:05 kados   open directory = dmoz
17:06 kados   dmoz.org
17:06 si      ahh
17:06 kados   I think I can do a CF on the 4801
17:06 rach    hello
17:07 kados   hey rach
17:07 si      dmoz.org provides some kind of filtered access?
17:07 kados   no ... just a human edited directory with nifty categories like 'porn'
17:07 si      so how do you use it at the moment?
17:08 kados   we don't use dmoz atm
17:08 kados   IPrism maintains a database of their own
17:08 si      so it does
17:08 kados   this would be the 'free' version
17:09 si      so you want the punters to have free access until they go somewhere dubious
17:09 si      and at that point you want them to auth
17:09 kados   yep
17:10 si      and you don't yet have a machine readable definition of dubious
17:10 kados   and the list of who can auth comes from our borrower table
17:10 si      that breaks down to a list of URL's?
17:11 kados   no ... but I'm pretty sure that's easy to get out of dmoz
17:11 kados   yep there is a CF slot here
17:12 kados   so that'd take care of storage issues I should think
17:12 si      there is active blacklisting in squidguard
17:13 kados   yep ... we'd like to have that list oo
17:13 kados   too even
17:13 kados   last I checked I don't think squidguard did transparent proxies
17:14 si      sg sits inside squid
17:14 kados   and since the last release was Dec 2001 I'd say it hasn't changed
17:14 si      so you presumably need squid to handle the actual heavy lifting
17:15 kados   probably ... though recently I was wondering if I could do the whole thing with iptables and linux
17:15 kados   and maybe some perl ;-)
17:15 kados   but that's probably a bad idea
17:16 kados   my tcp/ip isn't that strong
17:16 si      mm, ok
17:16 si      you've never setup a tranny proxy before?
17:17 kados   nope
17:17 si      the answer, in a nutshell, is that you need all those things
17:17 kados   hehe
17:17 si      you need some device that sees all the traffic, to pick up the http requests
17:17 si      normally that would be your NAT firewall
17:18 si      but it could be some other bridging device that you stick live in the network
17:18 kados   my idea was that the soekris would be the NAT firewall
17:18 si      either way, it has to see the entire communication between the client, and the interweb
17:18 kados   right
17:19 si      once you've got that, and iptables or pf or similar, then you can redirect the http/https traffic to another TCP port
17:19 si      that TCP port could be on the same machine, or it could be elsewhere on your network
17:20 si      there is no particular requirement that hte transparent proxy be on the same machine as the "http stealing" firewall rules
17:20 kados   right ... and by TCP port you mean a logical port ... could be the same interface right?
17:20 si      listening on that TCP port is a process that knows how to read the HTTP request, and service it
17:20 si      ie, squid, or similar
17:21 kados   ok
17:21 si      so at that point, squid is deciding what to do with the http request, based on it's configuratino, which may include lookups through squidguard
17:22 kados   (this is starting to make sense) ...
17:22 kados   I was wondering how the two interacted
17:22 si      it is certainly easiest to do all this on the same box, but you could in theory have your firewall redirects, your squid, and your squidguard all on seperate boxes
17:23 kados   right ...
17:23 kados   good news then
17:23 si      now, here in NZ, we normally run squid for content caching
17:23 si      since we're a stupidly long way from anywhere
17:24 kados   :-)
17:24 si      and trans pacific bandwidth costs amounts of money that truly would make your Ohio eyes water
17:24 kados   I'm sure
17:24 si      so there's real incentive to not use it, if you can avoid it
17:25 si      apparently Cisco's content caching divisino is actually housed in Australia, for much the same sorts of reasons
17:25 si      all the caching gurus are down under, and not in the US
17:25 kados   :-)
17:25 si      so we sould normally spec quite a big box for caching
17:25 si      since you'r aiming to store a pile of stuff
17:26 si      so you need much disk, and thus CPU and RAM as well
17:26 kados   right ...
17:26 si      so in rigs I've built down here, we've had the firewall running fairly lightweight, off flash, redirecting to a seperate box running squid
17:27 si      in terms of the 4801, you can either run with CF, or you can get a 2.5inch HD mount
17:28 si      what OS do you use for servers?
17:28 kados   currently linux (mix between debian and redhat/fedora)
17:28 kados   but I'd like to branch into the BSDs to expand my knowledge a bit (iykwim)
17:28 si      and you're thinking BSD for the 4801?
17:29 kados   yea
17:29 si      fair enough
17:29 si      for ease of setup and use, it's pretty hard to go past debian on CF
17:29 kados   I'm not opposed to linux tho if it'd do the job as well
17:30 si      we're using debian on 1GB flash
17:30 si      basic debian takes about 270MB
17:30 si      so that gives you a certain amount of room to play in
17:30 kados   right
17:30 kados   sounds promising
17:30 si      where you need to be careful is that you have enough RAM for everything you want to do
17:30 kados   128MB sound like enough?
17:31 si      because you don't have a lot of swap available
17:31 kados   ahh ... right
17:31 si      it's certainly more than enough for the basic firewalling and NAT and whatnot
17:31 si      since that all takes place in the kernel
17:32 si      you'll get change from 32MB if that's all you do with the box
17:34 kados   I'm thinking that the dmoz and squidguard lists aren't that big ...
17:34 si      byw way of comparison, this is a P4 box with 16 ethernet interfaces, that's been up for 65 days, and it runs ssh, snmpd, zebra, cron, inetd and a few gettys
17:34 si      it has a metric truckload of firewall rules
17:34 si      MemTotal:       256508 kB
17:34 si      MemFree:        225556 kB
17:35 si      it's using 31MB RAM, after 60 days of operation
17:35 kados   wow
17:35 kados   that's pretty cool
17:36 si      sadly, it crashes every four months or so, for reasons I haven't been able to fathom
17:36 kados   :-)
17:37 si      MemTotal:        63192 kB
17:37 si      MemFree:         43900 kB
17:37 si      19MB in use
17:37 kados   wow that's great
17:38 si      the difference is probably zebra, which can use an arbitrary amount of RAM, depending on how many routes there are in your route table
17:38 kados   I wonder how much hp squid would take up if it was just doing tp for a small list like dmoz and squidguard
17:38 si      from memory, squid uses loads of RAM, but uses it for caching objects, and keeping indexes of it's cache
17:38 si      if you're not caching, you'll probably be ok
17:38 kados   cool
17:39 si      I've no idea what the RAM utilisation of sg is, I've never run it
17:39 kados   right
17:39 kados   what debian distro do you use for your soekris?
17:39 si      we don't use debian on the soekris's
17:39 kados   ahh
17:40 kados   openbsd?
17:40 si      I've been experimenting with debian of flash on some more stock EPIA motherboards
17:40 si      which works ok, but the mobos in questino have at least 512MB RAM
17:41 si      because we're running apache, perl, mysql and so forth off the flash
17:41 kados   what's the application ?
17:41 si      there's absolutely no reason why a stock debian shouldn't work off flash in 128MB RAM, so long as you didn't go hog wild with extra clag
17:41 si      like X, and so forth
17:42 si      and kept the number of listening daemons to an absolute minimum
17:42 kados   right ... none of my debs have X (except one partition on my laptop)
17:42 si      my inclination would be to attach a hard disk with debian on it to your soekris
17:43 si      and turn off swap
17:43 si      and make sure that you can get everything you want to get running running
17:43 si      then transfer that to CF
17:43 si      you might want to invest in a CF <-> IDE adapter
17:44 kados   this soekris board came out of my pocket ...
17:44 kados   I didn't want to spend library money if it flopped :-)
17:44 kados   I've got a few CFs however
17:46 si      fair enough
17:46 si      any of the CF bigger than 256MB?
17:46 kados   256 is the biggest I've got atm
17:46 si      my experience is that getting debian in less than 256 is a bit tedious
17:46 si      to the point where you might as well start playing with the CF specific distros
17:46 si      on our soekris's we use Bering
17:47 kados   bering eh?
17:47 si      which takes up about 8MB of flash for our default load
17:47 kados   :-)
17:47 si      which in fact includes 1.2MB of DOS6.22 :-)
17:47 kados   :-)
17:47 kados   ahh Dos6.22
17:47 kados   those were the days
17:48 si      yet another of the devils works
17:48 kados   dad deleting it
17:48 kados   and the wonders of undelete ;-)
17:48 si      and my irishman isn't even a catholic :-)
17:48 kados   :-)
17:49 kados   so would you recommend bering for squid/sg?
17:49 si      to save yourself going utterly mental, you might want to go for one of these:
17:49 si      http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm
17:49 si      although finding one closer than switzerland would be the go
17:50 kados   wow ... that does look nice
17:50 kados   I could install the os on a regular pc and then just plug it in, eh?
17:51 si      yes
17:51 kados   nice!
17:51 si      it saves a whole bunch of grief around getting the thing bootable
17:51 kados   yea ... I was dreading that
17:51 kados   mucking about with serial and such :-)
17:52 si      which can be difficult to do in pcmcia or USB adapters
17:52 si      since getting a CDROM drive or similar onto the soekris is non trivial, it's easier to do it on a more standard machine
17:53 si      althougk, I do note that the bering people now have a pxelinux rig
17:53 si      which also may be worth a look
17:53 si      http://leaf.sourceforge.net/bering-uclibc/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=3&MMN_position=3:3
17:53 si      http://leaf.sourceforge.net/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=37
17:54 si      things to watch out with the soekris, are that not all CF are created equal
17:54 kados   I've had the same problem with my Zaurus
17:54 si      you may struggle to get older CF bootable
17:55 si      sandisk CF have been good for us
17:55 si      there looks to be a squid package for bering
17:56 si      we use a homebuilt PXE installation to setup our soekris's
17:56 kados   I've got a lexar CF ... no sandisks
17:56 si      it might be the way to go for you
17:56 kados   yea?
17:56 si      you'll certainly learn some stuff :-)
17:56 si      PXE is netbooting
17:56 si      so you setup a DHCP server with some extra info, and a TFTP server
17:57 si      and the machines download their kernels from off the ethernet
17:57 kados   sounds a bit like LTSP
17:57 si      yes, a lot like
17:57 kados   yea I've got lots to learn
17:57 si      if you're familiar with ltsp, then setting up pxe to setup the soekris shouldn't be too hard
17:58 kados   well I've done ltsp ... I wouldn't say I'm particularly farmiliar with it ;-)
18:01 si      well, you've some kind of time<->pfaffing<->money tradeoff here
18:01 si      if you just wnat it to work, get a bigger CF and an IDE convertoer, wack it in an ordinary PC to do setup, and you'll be good to go licketysplit
18:01 kados   :-)
18:01 si      if you want to muck around and learn some for the leat amount of dollars spent
18:02 si      then stick a 32MB CF in, and muck around with PXE Installs
18:02 si      you'll have great fun
18:02 kados   hehe
18:02 kados   I think I'll do both while I wait for the IDE convertor to arrive :-)
18:02 si      monowall is definitely worth a look, if only because it's real easy to setup
18:03 si      I've not played with the other bsd based flash boot systems
18:03 si      they all looked like they weren't as well sorted as bering
18:03 si      which has been around a lot longer
18:03 si      the BSD people weren't as quick out of the blocks in getting their OS's running out of RAM disks
18:03 si      ohh, one thing to bear in mind
18:04 si      is that debian will be less consumptive of RAM than bering
18:04 si      Bering boots from your boot media, and extracts all the files into a ram disk
18:04 si      of 6-12MB
18:04 si      which you lose as operating RAM
18:04 kados   ahh
18:04 si      that's one of the tradeoffs
18:05 kados   are new kernels being used (2.6es?)
18:05 si      since Bering was and is still designed to run off a floppy
18:05 si      so the softwar on it is compressed to death
18:05 si      so you can't run from it directly
18:05 kados   ahh
18:05 si      where as with a stock debian install, you just run straight from CF
18:06 kados   makes sense ... it needs to eb decompressed before the files are readable ...
18:06 kados   gotcha
18:06 si      OTOH, the bering style systems won't wear out your CF, but the debian install will
18:06 si      although you could mitigate most of that by logging back to a central syslog server
18:06 kados   'wear out'?
18:07 si      urban myth suggests that CF have much lower duty cycles than spinning hard disks
18:07 kados   ahh
18:07 kados   well if I get a couple of years out of them I'll be happy
18:07 si      especially, that you only get a finite number of writes, which may not be very high
18:08 si      modern flash is apparently a lot better
18:08 si      flash is also somewhat slower than a spinning disk, somewhat counterintuitively
18:08 si      which is to say, it's seek times are much better, but it's transfer rates are dismal
18:08 kados   right I've heard that
18:08 si      so you get a somewhat more responsive system running the Bering way, out of RAMdisk
18:08 kados   that little disk spins pretty quickly for a reason ;-)
18:09 si      indeed it does
18:09 si      and once it's found the data, it hoovers it off pretty quickly
18:09 kados   hehe
18:10 si      as always, in the wonder world of open source, there are myriad ways to waste great wads of your time
18:10 kados   yep
18:10 kados   :-)
18:10 si      right now, however, it's a beautiful summers day here, the sun is pouring in the window
18:10 si      so I'm going to go help Rach train dogs
18:10 kados   sounds like fun
18:10 kados   thanks for the help si!
18:11 si      first day back after the summer break
18:11 kados   wow!
18:11 si      the pups will doubtless all be bigger
18:11 si      and awful :-)
18:11 kados   :-)
18:11 si      yes, you have to remember that here in NZ, Christmas and the summer break become one big holiday
18:11 si      since they fall at the same time of year
18:12 si      so there are lots of companies still closed until Monday
18:12 si      lots of people not yet back at work, and many won't be till the end of January
18:13 si      and things like recreational sport and clubs and whotnot tend to  shutdown for a few weeks
18:13 kados   that's really nice
18:13 kados   things aren't as relaxed here
18:13 si      hence the reason that we've not done any dog training with the club since mid december
18:13 kados   I've thought about moving to NZ
18:14 kados   but haven't had a chance to visit yet
18:14 si      well, the downside is that we don't get a holiday in the middle of the year like the norther hemisphere does
18:14 si      since that's winter
18:14 si      but we do tend to bunk off and go snoeboarding then anyway
18:14 kados   :-)
18:15 si      hmm, wind is getting up http://www.huttcity.govt.nz/about/weather/
18:15 si      could be a blokart day
18:17 si      later
18:17 kados   thanks again si
18:18 kados   wow that looks fun
23:06 kados   chris around?
23:07 kados   or si?
02:03 kados   si back from dog training?
02:04 kados   I've got my soekris booted with OpenBSD
02:04 kados   (what a chore PXE is!)
02:04 kados   but I think I understand the process now
02:17 kados   anyhoo ... if you happen by I've got it recognizing the 256MB CF card and I'm trying to sort out how to do the partitions
02:17 kados   (what the best allocation would be that is)
02:53 kados   hehe ...
02:54 kados   the good news is that open bsd is running on the soekris
02:58 kados   sweet it worked
03:05 ambrose for your amusement, http://ada.dhs.org/~gniw/rcl.html pretty much summarizes the stupid parts of our issuing rules :-)
03:08 kados   ambrose: did you write that up?
03:09 ambrose kados: yes, i wrote that up :-)
03:09 kados   :-)
03:09 kados   I agree with the last paragraph:-)
03:10 ambrose :-)
03:10 ambrose i think i'll get the videos catalogued with koha next week, whether my manager likes it or not. no one can search the video catalogue (which exists as just a simple printed list) right now
03:11 ambrose i tried to do one video today and found that i don't know how to enter the call number
03:20 ambrose indeed